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(Entertainment Weekly)   Ahmed Best talks about a deleted Jar Jar Binks scene that really would have redeemed his character and made a huge difference in The Phantom Menace   (insidemovies.ew.com) divider line 134
    More: Unlikely, Jar Jar, The Phantom Menace, Star Wars, Binks, Ahmed Best, Attack of the Clones, breakout character, Ian McDiarmid  
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11645 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 12 Feb 2012 at 3:47 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-02-12 09:22:03 AM
Well, the fact that they even act like a single scene can change a movie and a half's worth of crap highlights a major issue with the writing.

Characters shouldn't turn on a dime. Sure, you can have that one 'scene' that can be identified as the pivot point, but the audience must believe that such a change is possible, likely, or understood.

I can just as easily believe that Jar-Jar would be perceived as a puppet politician in one scene as I would believe that a person can go from normal to baby-murdering maniac in 45 seconds.
 
2012-02-12 09:24:31 AM

SwissArmyGnome: I have said this before. Jar Jar Binks is not the worst thing in the prequels. He's not even the worst thing in that first movie. Let that sink in.

He was better acted, less irritating, and had more to do with the story than that damned Anakin kid, for one thing.


True, but Jar Jar is a close second. I've never been able to sit through the entire phantom menace because of that insufferable kid. And I've tried a handful of times.
 
2012-02-12 09:25:21 AM
Best thinks that ANOTHER scene where characters walk down a hallway talking politics would have made the movies BETTER?

The political nonsense is what made the movies so dreadfully boring to begin with
 
2012-02-12 09:25:36 AM
media.screened.com

"If Roger Rabbit had been made by Satan himself."
 
2012-02-12 09:27:09 AM

Derwood: Best thinks that ANOTHER scene where characters walk down a hallway talking politics would have made the movies BETTER?

The political nonsense is what made the movies so dreadfully boring to begin with


That, and the endless streaming flat "sexual tension" dialogue between that rat-tailed eunuch and the frigid clown woman.
 
2012-02-12 09:29:05 AM

born_yesterday: farkeruk: Bagshot: What about the Ewoks? They were rubbish! You don't complain about them!
Tim: Yeah, but Jar Jar Binks makes the Ewoks look like... farking Shaft!

That said, people who put the whole responsibility onto Jar Jar are simply looking for something to tag their general annoyance on. If the story and characters had been good, people would have overlooked Jar Jar.

If the movies had been good, Lucas could have claimed the right of prima notte with every SW geek out there for the rest of his life. Instead, when his vision was criticized, he chose to show contempt for the very people that built his empire. I'm not a fanboy, but I know bad editing, bad pacing, wooden acting, a poor script, and lazy direction when I see it. No George, no more of my money for you.

It's OK. From what I hear, he redeemed himself with Red Tails. Can't wait to see his next vision brought to the big screen!


From everything I've heard Red Tails sucks, and has all the problems of other Lucas-controlled films.
 
2012-02-12 09:43:15 AM

Mentalpatient87: Lone Stranger: i866.photobucket.com

Yeah, let's steal MadTV jokes, that's clever.


Is the stick up your arse painful?
 
2012-02-12 09:50:58 AM

Jim_Callahan: Hell, I was overall a good kid from a middle-class neighborhood and at 10 years I had plenty of obvious aggression issues, and I didn't grow up to murder even one youngling.



brainofjay.files.wordpress.com

NO ANAKIN!! I TOLD YOU TO GO AHEAD AND KILL OFF THE REST OF THE YUENGLING!!
 
2012-02-12 10:15:47 AM

thamike: NO ANAKIN!! I TOLD YOU TO GO AHEAD AND KILL OFF THE REST OF THE YUENGLING!!


LOL.
 
2012-02-12 10:27:42 AM
As I've said many times before, if Lucas had revealed in the third movie that Jar Jar was the actual Dark Lord of the Sith and the Emperor the Sith apprentice, Jar Jar would have gone down as the greatest villain in cinematic history this side of Darth Vader. The character would have made complete sense and all of the stupid stuff that happened in the first film would have had a whole new subtext.

But, alas. Lucas has such contempt for his fans that he decided that Jar Jar needs to not only be stupid, but also simple-minded and tragic in the end. That's what you get for trying to replicate success on your own that was originally built with the creative contributions of hundreds of other people. Lucas was a great visionary leader on the first three films, but he proved what a terrible writer and director he is in the prequels.
 
2012-02-12 10:30:26 AM

kibbled: SwissArmyGnome: I have said this before. Jar Jar Binks is not the worst thing in the prequels. He's not even the worst thing in that first movie. Let that sink in.

He was better acted, less irritating, and had more to do with the story than that damned Anakin kid, for one thing.

Lucas isn't much of a director with actual actors let alone a child. I am don't think it was the fault of an eight year old that the movie is mediocre at best.

Lucas should of done the 1st draft of the screen play then passed the rough draft and directing duties to someone else.


lucas didnt direct the 3 films
lucas did the cool special effects directing and had someone else direct the real people.
hahahahahahah
in other words, no one cared about the rest of the film

lucas "you want to play an alien and have the worlds most annoying accent? SWEET!!!"
lucas "you want to have a love scene between anakin and padma? ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww"

and yah
jar jar was just one of many terrible parts of those movies
 
2012-02-12 10:32:29 AM

FooDog: SwissArmyGnome: I have said this before. Jar Jar Binks is not the worst thing in the prequels. He's not even the worst thing in that first movie. Let that sink in.

He was better acted, less irritating, and had more to do with the story than that damned Anakin kid, for one thing.

True, but Jar Jar is a close second. I've never been able to sit through the entire phantom menace because of that insufferable kid. And I've tried a handful of times.


this is why the FSM made skip and fast forward
talking about pod racing? skip
anakin? skip
jar jar? skip

ooooooooooooooooo light sabers and darth maul

so, it is like a 10 min movie??
:D
 
2012-02-12 10:35:40 AM
So the essential arc of Jar-Jar is that a borderline retarded black man gains a senate seat through affirmative because Amidala wants to enforce racial equality in the Naboo parliament after decades of Gungan oppression, and this stupid black man then brings about the collapse of the government due to his overwhelming retarded blackness?

It's worse than the "Five dorrar! Five dorrar!" Chinese whackiness of the Trade Federation. Or the hook-nosed Shylock rubbing his dirty hands together over the sale of Anakin's mother.
 
2012-02-12 10:38:21 AM
Did it look like this?

img820.imageshack.us
 
2012-02-12 10:38:40 AM
I've seen the deleted scene that he is talking about and agree 100%. It takes place before they all landed on Tatooine and what happens in it really added a lot of depth to the later scene where he steps in the poopy.

It would've saved the prequels.
 
2012-02-12 10:49:04 AM

Derwood: Best thinks that ANOTHER scene where characters walk down a hallway talking politics would have made the movies BETTER?


"Man, if only Jar Jar's political career had been brought to fruition on screen...

a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com

CZAR CZAR BINKS
 
2012-02-12 10:50:01 AM

thamike: Jim_Callahan: Hell, I was overall a good kid from a middle-class neighborhood and at 10 years I had plenty of obvious aggression issues, and I didn't grow up to murder even one youngling.


[brainofjay.files.wordpress.com image 640x480]

NO ANAKIN!! I TOLD YOU TO GO AHEAD AND KILL OFF THE REST OF THE YUENGLING!!


I laughed 'til I stopped.

seriously...Yuengling out the nose and everything.
 
2012-02-12 10:59:57 AM

TwistedFark: I hate saying this, because it hurts as a fan, but star wars really wasn't all that good. Don't get me wrong, there hasn't really been anything made since it that's been all around better than what we got with the first 3 movies, but looking back the acting was fairly mediocre and the plot wasn't all that inspired and there was a lot of stuff that plain didn't make any senese.


You're right but the big difference is that the original Star Wars is fun to watch. No movie can be perfect, and Star Wars had tons of flaws, but who hasn't dreamed of flying an X-wing? Or just being Luke, or Han, or even Darth Vader? For all the nitpick bullshiat things that are wrong with it, there's so much that's right.

Which is why all the Star Wars retcon things piss me off so much. Just admit it was a flaw, don't try and make up some BS excuse why the Kessel run was a distance not a time.
 
2012-02-12 11:00:28 AM

SwissArmyGnome: I have said this before. Jar Jar Binks is not the worst thing in the prequels. He's not even the worst thing in that first movie. Let that sink in.

He was better acted, less irritating, and had more to do with the story than that damned Anakin kid, for one thing.


This. Jar Jar was a lightning rod as to what was wrong with the initial movie. but ultimately, he served his purpose as a kid-friendly character, and though silly, a tight script and well-directed movie would have not suffered from his inclusion. His irritating traits were harder to overlook because aside from about 5 minutes of lightsaber fights in the first movie, there was nothing for adults to enjoy. Anakin was terrible and was one of the most poorly acted child roles that I have ever seen in a motion picture. I've seen kids that were better actors on daytime soap operas.

I actually blame Jake Lloyd less than I do Lucas. Lucas cannot get a decent performance out of an actor. If you have Liam Neeson, Natalie Portman and Ewan McGregor in your movie and critics talk repeatedly about how lifeless all 3 of them are, then the fault is going to be on the director, not the actors. If Liam Neeson can't get going as a Jedi master, then what chance does a little kid have playing the future dark lord of the Sith?

I swear, I always think I'm done biatching about the prequels, but I just get dragged back in every time.
 
2012-02-12 11:03:10 AM
A long time ago I actually had thought up a plot for what phantom menace should have been(almost anything is better than what was seen.) It went something like this:

Anakin is not on Tattoine first and foremost. This coincidental crap has to be cut out. Where do we hide baby luke? On the planet Anakin was born of course!!! Totally logical!!

I pictured anakin as being born on some dystopian like planet where he was something like a slave child gladiator be forced to provide entertainment to wealthy elites. His mother tries to tend his wounds from the matches and his father while stern does his best to try and train him to stay alive for possible manumission while imparting unto him a warriors code. This would have served a few purposes.

1) The training would have honed his reflexes which would have explained his reputed battle prowess remarked on by Obiwan later in the story line.

2) Being surrounded by death and violence all the time could be used to show him developing a disturbed personality opening him up for later manipulation by palpatine to embrace the darkside and his own suppressed rage.

3) It would have given Quigon or whatever his name is a stronger reason to take an interest in Anakin as he would see Anakin as a potential force using massmurderer if someone didn't remove him from that environment.

4) Somehow the father would have died(at the hands of alien guards) trying to get anakin out of the gladiator pits thus removing someone extremely close and steering him straight. Only his mother remains trying to calm anakins seething hostility towards aliens.

5) Somehow they get to naboo and their is a gungan type race only it is much more lizard like and looks kind of like bipedal iguanas. The replacement for Jar Jar (lets call him jamie) would have been exiled on religious grounds. Not able to produce eggs is taken as a sign of the Gods displeasure with a grievous sin and so she is an outcast looking for vindication and saying things like "The Gods know no sin is upon me!!!"

6) the Gungan replacements don't have a huge clunky army like what is depicted but instead a sleeker one that takes advantage of stealth, camoflage, and misdirection to confuse the droid army and lead it into a trap.

7) Darth maul is on Naboo and while fighting in the residential area with the jedi kills both Wuigon and Anakins mother reinforcing Anakin's hatred of aliens and causing him to lash out with the force without any control obliterating almost everything around him and ripping Darth Maul apart. He then faints.

8) Obiwan having witnessed and barely survived Anakins force display takes him to train as a jedi because he is obviously dangerous and if not trained will start killing with the force in fits of rage. Killing him while he is a child is clearly not the way of the jedi. He tries to pick up where Anakins father left off, instilling in anakin a code of honor and trying to calm his fury and by now pronounced xenophobia.
 
2012-02-12 11:03:59 AM

GoldSpider: That's one of many problems. Anakin in Clones doesnt even vaguely resemble Anakin from TPM. His impatience and brooding angst are never adequately explained.


I wouldn't be surprised if Lucas just wanted to show how a good kid can make bad decisions while a teen, then turn to a life of sex, Sith, and shiatty music.

But since Lucas swims in the money of nerds and drinks in their attention like a drunken college girl, I bet he just said "Teens are angsty for no reasons! Amirite parents?"
 
2012-02-12 11:10:29 AM

Gergesa: A long time ago I actually had thought up a plot for what phantom menace should have been(almost anything is better than what was seen.) It went something like this:

Anakin is not on Tattoine first and foremost. This coincidental crap has to be cut out. Where do we hide baby luke? On the planet Anakin was born of course!!! Totally logical!!

I pictured anakin as being born on some dystopian like planet where he was something like a slave child gladiator be forced to provide entertainment to wealthy elites. His mother tries to tend his wounds from the matches and his father while stern does his best to try and train him to stay alive for possible manumission while imparting unto him a warriors code. This would have served a few purposes.

1) The training would have honed his reflexes which would have explained his reputed battle prowess remarked on by Obiwan later in the story line.

2) Being surrounded by death and violence all the time could be used to show him developing a disturbed personality opening him up for later manipulation by palpatine to embrace the darkside and his own suppressed rage.

3) It would have given Quigon or whatever his name is a stronger reason to take an interest in Anakin as he would see Anakin as a potential force using massmurderer if someone didn't remove him from that environment.

4) Somehow the father would have died(at the hands of alien guards) trying to get anakin out of the gladiator pits thus removing someone extremely close and steering him straight. Only his mother remains trying to calm anakins seething hostility towards aliens.

5) Somehow they get to naboo and their is a gungan type race only it is much more lizard like and looks kind of like bipedal iguanas. The replacement for Jar Jar (lets call him jamie) would have been exiled on religious grounds. Not able to produce eggs is taken as a sign of the Gods displeasure with a grievous sin and so she is an outcast looking for vindication and saying things l ...


I'd have loved Anakin to have been played by the second Tom Riddle from the Harry Potter films. Genuinely creepy.
 
2012-02-12 11:11:13 AM
Also, not sure if anybody has linked to this yet...

ANI, DEES ARE SOME NICE-A DUDS-EEPOOPA (new window)
 
2012-02-12 11:13:58 AM

Bungles: I'd have loved Anakin to have been played by the second Tom Riddle from the Harry Potter films. Genuinely creepy.


They should have cast Macauley Culkin, as he is now, for young Anakin. It would explain why adult Darth Vader is over seven feet tall with a face too frightening to behold.
 
2012-02-12 11:14:02 AM

Bungles: I'd have loved Anakin to have been played by the second Tom Riddle from the Harry Potter films. Genuinely creepy.


Sadly Lucas is bad at casting as well.
 
2012-02-12 11:18:24 AM

Gergesa: Bungles: I'd have loved Anakin to have been played by the second Tom Riddle from the Harry Potter films. Genuinely creepy.

Sadly Lucas is bad at casting as well.



Ewan McGregor was on-the-money casting (even if acting in a green screen box severly undermined his skills)

Or cast someone like the kid from The Omen. He has literally only 3 lines, but scares the crap out of you.
 
2012-02-12 11:20:10 AM

Gergesa: Bungles: I'd have loved Anakin to have been played by the second Tom Riddle from the Harry Potter films. Genuinely creepy.

Sadly Lucas is bad at casting as well.


nerdpai.com

Dis..Dis hunk-a-JUunK...IT MADE...the kessel RUN...in tuh-WELVE PAAAHsecs.
 
2012-02-12 11:34:13 AM
Revenge of the Sith, submitter. Not The Phantom Menace. It's right there in the headline.
 
2012-02-12 11:38:32 AM

Sun Worshiping Dog Launcher: This. Jar Jar was a lightning rod as to what was wrong with the initial movie. but ultimately, he served his purpose as a kid-friendly character, and though silly, a tight script and well-directed movie would have not suffered from his inclusion.


I can remember the exact moment I facepalmed in the theatre when I first watched The Phantom Menace..... the moment that I realized this was going to be a big, steaming turd and I had wasted my money.

It was right after Qui Gon met Jar Jar in the forest. And Jar Jar is following him around and he exclaims "ex-squeeze me..."

And I thought, "Isn't that a catch phrase from farking Stephanie Tanner on Full House?" ....and then later on, he exclaims "How wude!" and pouts, just like farking Stephanie Tanner.

My mouth gaped open. Why.....is George Lucas....stealing dialogue.... from farking Full House, the most whitebread, milquetoast, offensively lame television show in history?! Why.... is dialogue... from a farking wholesome family television show that ranks on the stomach-churning scale between The Family Circus and Up With People.... in a space fantasy movie?!

WHY DID HE DO THAT?! Did he think it would make Jar Jar cuter, like the Olson twins? Jar Jar's not farking human and he's not a baby. He's a creepy, uncanny-valley affirming motherfarking CGI alien.

This kind of genre-mashing is just so out of place. It'd be like Gandalf riding a skateboard and slam dunking a basketball at Bilbo's birthday party. That's the level of disconnect here.
 
2012-02-12 11:48:12 AM
Anakin wasn't supposed to be a defective kid. I don't know why everyone is wishing they had gotten an evil, creepy child instead of the happy, good-hearted one. THAT WAS THE POINT. The Dark Side corrupted him. He wasn't always evil.

If he was evil, creepy, and angry in the first place, then what's the point of all of Yoda's warnings about fear and attachment leading to the Dark Side? What's the point of the Jedi's monastic existence? The reason they grab kids when they're babies and train them to be Jedi is because they believe (and rightly so) that the Dark Side or misuse of the Force can lead a person to evil deeds; It's not the other way around!

You aren't evil, then seek out the Dark Side. You're seduced by the Dark Side and become evil.

"You don't know the power of the Dark Side." -Vader

He's saying he wants to be like he was as a young man, but he cannot because the Dark Side holds him hostage and makes him commit the evil acts he knows he has committed. He wishes he could go back to how it was before he was seduced by power and murdered children, but he's a slave to it.

He's always a slave. ALL his life, Anakin/Vader is a slave. He's a slave to Watto and the Hutts, and then he's a slave to love, and finally a slave to the Dark Side and Palpatine.

He isn't free until his son Luke sets him free... And even then it's only to die as a free, sovereign man.

There's another point to his good nature as a child. He is the result of Darth Plagueis manipulating the Force to create life. He is, in essence, a creation of the Dark Side, and yet his nature is kind and benevolent. The Force itself is neutral, and the good/evil comes in how you access and use it. Anakin is a living representation of that-- Sort of the argument that all babies, regardless of their origin or parents, are born agnostic.

Anakin is agnostic in the beginning. He feels the Force, but it's neither dark or light. It's his mother and her love that has made him a good person, and it's the loss of love-- both Shmi's and the threat of losing Padme's-- that makes him desperate enough to use the Dark Side of the Force. He does it when he's young and facing the Tusken Raiders, and he does it later when he believes he's going to lose Padme.

It's a story of a good man who is manipulated BECAUSE he loves so deeply, and is such a noble, good person at heart.

If he were just an evil dick his whole life, then all Obi-Wan would have had to say in ANH was, "I knew your father. He was always kind of an evil dick. Here's his lightsaber; Don't do what he did, kid."

But instead he referred to Anakin as a good friend, a noble soul, a good man, and a hero before he was corrupted by the Dark Side. Obi-Wan NEVER says anything like, "He was always prone to anger and the Dark Side just made it worse." --- He even makes it clear that he believes that Anakin died when the Dark Side took him. Why? Because Anakin was a good man, and what he became was nothing like the man he used to be.

But the way people talk about the kid, it seems like they wanted an asshole who just becomes a powerful asshole when he learns the Force.

Yes, TPM is a dull flick. Yes, it's all set-up and exposition that should have been done in some other format. But it's necessary to understand that Vader wasn't always evil. He was a good person at heart. THAT'S THE DAMNED POINT OF HIS REDEMPTION SCENE IN ROTJ.
 
2012-02-12 11:48:17 AM
I thought it had been well established that Lucas made the prequals with merchandising being the driving force rather than making good movies.
 
2012-02-12 12:06:58 PM

Wayne 985: Revenge of the Sith, submitter. Not The Phantom Menace. It's right there in the headline.


Funny thing is, I read 'Revenge of the Sith' in subby's headline when I saw it earlier. It seems to have been changed for some reason. I could be wrong though.
 
2012-02-12 12:11:36 PM

Nihilist's Guide to Reticent Entropy: Anakin wasn't supposed to be a defective kid. I don't know why everyone is wishing they had gotten an evil, creepy child instead of the happy, good-hearted one. THAT WAS THE POINT. The Dark Side corrupted him. He wasn't always evil.


I think by "evil" or "edge" people meant "not from a My Buddy commercial" and "able to act." If the kid had an ounce of anything other than robotic cute-kid 2.0 running through his veins, nobody would have ever brought it up. Same thing with the sequels. Nobody should blame the actors, in my opinion. The writing was impossible to work with, and the direction seemed almost like Lucas spent the whole shoot huffing markers and trying to figure out how the merchandise would look.
 
2012-02-12 12:14:33 PM
The problem wasn't the character of binks.

The problem is they took the absolute worst thing about Return and dialed it to 11, and dialed the slapstick to 28.

If George wanted to write a kids comedy show, he should have gone that route.
 
2012-02-12 12:19:20 PM

Nihilist's Guide to Reticent Entropy: Anakin wasn't supposed to be a defective kid. I don't know why everyone is wishing they had gotten an evil, creepy child instead of the happy, good-hearted one. THAT WAS THE POINT. The Dark Side corrupted him. He wasn't always evil.

If he was evil, creepy, and angry in the first place, then what's the point of all of Yoda's warnings about fear and attachment leading to the Dark Side? What's the point of the Jedi's monastic existence? The reason they grab kids when they're babies and train them to be Jedi is because they believe (and rightly so) that the Dark Side or misuse of the Force can lead a person to evil deeds; It's not the other way around!



Why did Yoda and others thing there was something terribly "off" about Anakin, if he wasn't creepy?
 
2012-02-12 12:30:58 PM

TyrantII: If George wanted to write a kids comedy show, he should have gone that route.


He did.

www.jeffco.ca

It just came off as Pedo-bacca.

bluraymedia.ign.com

GRAAHHREEEOINGLBLGLBGLGL
 
2012-02-12 12:37:50 PM

Wonderduck: Mentalpatient87: Lone Stranger: i866.photobucket.com

Yeah, let's steal MadTV jokes, that's clever.

Is the stick up your arse painful?


Lighten up, Francis. A little sarcasm never hurt anyone. Really, stick up my ass?
 
2012-02-12 12:40:33 PM

Ishkur: This kind of genre-mashing is just so out of place. It'd be like Gandalf Legolas riding a skateboard and slam dunking a basketball at Bilbo's birthday party dwarf-tossing jokes. That's the level of disconnect here.


FTFY
 
2012-02-12 12:41:44 PM

Nihilist's Guide to Reticent Entropy: Anakin wasn't supposed to be a defective kid. I don't know why everyone is wishing they had gotten an evil, creepy child instead of the happy, good-hearted one. THAT WAS THE POINT. The Dark Side corrupted him. He wasn't always evil.


That's not what I said. I said that there needed to be a hint, some minor flaw in an otherwise heroic character that could build into a heroic flaw later.

It didn't have to be as dramatic as killing another kid, something as simple as intentionally cutting off another racer in the pod race scene in a way that results in injury, and having an adult chide him or even just comment on him cheerfully not caring. Having him freak out about losing his mother to an appreciable degree or at least show some mild understanding of the implications of her still being a slave when he gets to go free.

He's not supposed to be creepy, there just needed to be some manner of conflict that could justify the council's lack of desire to train him. It didn't in any way need to be "the beast rises" conflict, basic "I've been taken from my home planet by 'guardians' who left my mother enslaved to brutal gangsters who are freshly upset with me for losing them a lot of money" conflict would have been fine, and perfectly reasonable as a character motivation. Blithely reacting with angelic temperance and understanding to everything that happened is technically creepy in its own way, sure, but it's the opposite way of the direction that the character is supposed to go. Heroes are supposed to fall because they're too human, making him a goddamned Buddha was retarded.
 
2012-02-12 12:46:32 PM

Mentalpatient87: Lighten up, Francis. A little sarcasm never hurt anyone. Really, stick up my ass?


Yeah, let's steal Stripes jokes. That's clever.
 
2012-02-12 12:47:24 PM

ExperianScaresCthulhu: I liked the suggestion in the other thread, to make the shiat talked about in Phantom Menace backstory instead of a whole movie. I think Lucas was constrained by having to do three movies because that's what was expected of him; that, and being a slave to linear story telling.


THIS

The first movie should have been more or less episode II then the motherfarking CLONE WARS as the second movie, then episode III as the third movie.
 
2012-02-12 12:52:48 PM

Tax Boy: FTFY


No argument here. The LOTR movies have good things about them and bad things about them. What earns the most criticism is how "Americanized" the whole operation feels, when it should've been more elegant, more classical, and more "british". It was, essentially, an English mythology that Tolkien wrote, to go with the Norse and Greek mythologies he loved so much.

But hey, who are we to complain. When you spend $300 million dollars over three years and you have one weekend, two tops, to make it all back, you'd make things a little bit more commercial too.
 
2012-02-12 12:54:46 PM
I believe jar jar wasnt planned to be a politician from the beginning, since lucas was thinking he would be a success in the other films he would join obi wan and anakin in the whole story BUT always as the funny sidekick to be a hero in the end. The politician role and the thing that started the empire was the revenge but this goofyness from the first film was too much. I was thinking if later he would be a serious character, and i mean walking and talking like that other guy from the army and maybe he would join those people who started the rebel alliance (ok ill stop here)
 
2012-02-12 01:05:33 PM

Nihilist's Guide to Reticent Entropy: Anakin wasn't supposed to be a defective kid. I don't know why everyone is wishing they had gotten an evil, creepy child instead of the happy, good-hearted one. THAT WAS THE POINT. The Dark Side corrupted him. He wasn't always evil.

If he was evil, creepy, and angry in the first place, then what's the point of all of Yoda's warnings about fear and attachment leading to the Dark Side? What's the point of the Jedi's monastic existence? The reason they grab kids when they're babies and train them to be Jedi is because they believe (and rightly so) that the Dark Side or misuse of the Force can lead a person to evil deeds; It's not the other way around!

You aren't evil, then seek out the Dark Side. You're seduced by the Dark Side and become evil.

"You don't know the power of the Dark Side." -Vader

He's saying he wants to be like he was as a young man, but he cannot because the Dark Side holds him hostage and makes him commit the evil acts he knows he has committed. He wishes he could go back to how it was before he was seduced by power and murdered children, but he's a slave to it.

He's always a slave. ALL his life, Anakin/Vader is a slave. He's a slave to Watto and the Hutts, and then he's a slave to love, and finally a slave to the Dark Side and Palpatine.

He isn't free until his son Luke sets him free... And even then it's only to die as a free, sovereign man.

There's another point to his good nature as a child. He is the result of Darth Plagueis manipulating the Force to create life. He is, in essence, a creation of the Dark Side, and yet his nature is kind and benevolent. The Force itself is neutral, and the good/evil comes in how you access and use it. Anakin is a living representation of that-- Sort of the argument that all babies, regardless of their origin or parents, are born agnostic.

Anakin is agnostic in the beginning. He feels the Force, but it's neither dark or light. It's his mother and her love that has made him a good person, and it's the loss o ...


So here is my problem especially in playing The Old Republic which has an entire story arc devoted to the Dark Side acting, in part, like a virus is that it is far too simplistic to simply say "Well, he is innocent here, but he is evil here because he is a badguy in the second movie." I think the argument is that there had to be some sign that Anakin was even vulnerable to the dark side in TPM which they never showed. I mean, we see an Anakin that is some strange Ragged Dick character that doesn't really mind being a slave to Watto and the Hutts and constantly sees corruption or bad actions rewarded (Sebulba is the main marker of this view). I think if they at least showed that Anakin had a problem with authority specifically because he came from a world where authority is specifically corrupt, the story would have made a lot more sense. The other thing that could have done is show Anakin, while on Corruscant, grow to hate the Galactic Senate for not doing what needed to be done in regards to the Clone Wars. Palpatine takes that hatred, balls it with his authority problem, and uses his status as a war hero to allow himself power and gain a new apprentice.

I saw TPM again yesterday, and the problem with showing Anakin as such an innocent youth is the warnings the Council gives on training him seems paranoid or ideologically problematic. We are simply led to believe Yoda because, hell, he's Yoda and he should know what he is talking about. Instead, we don't see Anakin's problem with political authority until the second movie where is seems tacked on and rushed (much like the entirety of the prequel trilogy).

See, the problem with Darth Vader being a prisoner to the Dark Side and him knowing it bad doesn't really work all that well because it cuts free will out of the equation and makes it so the character is forced to always take the easy path (the Dark Side). If Vader knows he is serving a tyrant, why does he continue to do so when he is essentially seeing his whole worldview that a dictatorship is best (see Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith) torn apart? It works if he still believes that he is serving his side of the war (the reason he goes after Obi-Wan and the Jedi) and saving the Republic/Empire. Without it, it just becomes the same logic that allowed The Old Republic writers to say that Dark Side corruption can come from a form of mind control plague that subjects your free will (which is stupid).
 
2012-02-12 01:09:46 PM

thamike: Mentalpatient87: Lighten up, Francis. A little sarcasm never hurt anyone. Really, stick up my ass?

Yeah, let's steal Stripes jokes. That's clever.


Curses!
 
2012-02-12 01:29:35 PM

Tax Boy: Ishkur: This kind of genre-mashing is just so out of place. It'd be like Gandalf Legolas riding a skateboard and slam dunking a basketball at Bilbo's birthday party dwarf-tossing jokes. That's the level of disconnect here.

FTFY


That dwarf-tossing bullshiat annoyed me so much about LOTR. That was an issue (and maybe even an urban legend) in the mid-80's and somehow it's supposed to be funny in a 2005 movie about Middle Earth?

Really, really stupid. But like the movies otherwise.
 
2012-02-12 01:34:10 PM

Jim_Callahan: Come on, seriously... you literally promise us foreshadowing and we don't get a single hint of suppressed anger in the kid? Not some element of jealousy or controlling nature? Nothing?


Good point. The thing that bugs me is that in the PT Anakin is essentially TRICKED into falling to the dark side. If you're going to tell this story then skip the Anakin as a kid thing all together but then make it a CHOICE by the adult Anikin to fall to evil. That makes the later choice to turn from evil all the more poignant. Yes, this wouldn't be a kid's story but the story you chose to tell doesn't adapt well for children.
 
2012-02-12 01:37:33 PM
Another problem with TPM is that it keeps losing focus.

This is easily the most important rule of filmmaking: All movies must convey a single mood or tone, and it must stay true to this tone throughout. You can't shift gears halfway through and make your silly slapstick movie suddenly a Hitchcockian suspense thriller.

This is part of what makes the Transformers franchise so awful: It can't decide if its a comedy, a romantic fable, an action adventure or a war epic. These are four entirely different tones that do not mix well together. You can not have giant alien robots pooping, peeing, farting, humping, wandering about absent-mindedly with ridiculous earth accents, smacking each other like the Three Stooges in one scene, and then suddenly have them hunker down and behave like serious, hardened soldiers of war in a big battle five minutes later. Aside from the fact that this is a betrayal of their characters, the movies are so completely unfocused as to how they want you to feel. Moreover, Michael Bay doesn't give you the time and space to let these emotions well up inside so you can connect with the characters better, before the plot whisks them away to make them do some other dumb thing out of character. It is important that, if you're going to put serious, somber political intrigue and squabbling diplomatic disputes and other legal dialogue in your movie, don't put it right beside a CGI dewback farting on a farking gungan.

Focus is an establishment of mood. You want the audience to be in a certain state of mind to appreciate your film correctly. Stanley Kubrick was a master of this. A lot of his films had very long, drawn out single shot scenes several minutes long where nothing happens or characters fill it with mind-numbing protocol. The purpose is to lull the audience into a certain state of mind before he nails them later on (and this is not something that can happen instantly...it takes several seconds/minutes of buildup).

If the audience is not given the time to feel and reflect on something, it does not hold very much importance with them and is easily forgotten and dismissed. This is why no one cares when Qui Gon dies in The Phantom Menace: We aren't given the time to. A few seconds of last words, and then we are pulled in a different direction where three other plots are occurring simultaneously, none of them as heavy-handed as Qui Gon's death, and two of them are goofy slapstick.

TPM can't decide what it wants to be. It's a kids movie..... where a great deal of dialogue is political jargon. Even the opening crawl is boring, being about trade disputes and diplomatic negotiations and other nonsense. What is this, Star Trek?

I'm sure Red Letter Media has complained about this.
 
2012-02-12 01:57:16 PM

Daquin: If Vader knows he is serving a tyrant, why does he continue to do so when he is essentially seeing his whole worldview that a dictatorship is best (see Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith) torn apart? It works if he still believes that he is serving his side of the war (the reason he goes after Obi-Wan and the Jedi) and saving the Republic/Empire.


This brings up another problem with the prequel trilogy, which is that people that a large fraction of the audience is likely to believe that Anakin is on the right side. In TVTropes terms, the strawman has a hell of a point.

-- The Jedi are violent sociopaths that brainwash children from a young age. If the scene showing them literally training child soldiers doesn't send a chill up your back your unfortunate implications meter is severely out of whack.

-- Palpatine achieves power by winning an election, winning an appointment to chancellorship by another election, and then being granted emergency powers through entirely legal means. When the Jedi council decides that they want power instead, they bust into the elected chancellor's room waving weapons and try to murder him.

-- The Sith solution to nightmares about your spouse dying in childbirth? Hey, we've got loads of ancient medical knowledge, maybe if we go over it we'll find something to help. The Jedi solution? Let her die, it's not our place to interfere with fate. Yeah, that's rich, coming from people that use artificial means to arm themselves with goddamned laser swords. Gotta keep to the natural way, eh?

-- Sith apprentices killed by their master's betrayal in all six movies: zero. Sith apprentices killed without thought by Jedi who by any reasonable standard should have attempted to capture them instead to gain information if nothing else: 3.

-- Oh, no, a droid army is invading! Palpatine: this deserves consideration, I'll convene the council and we can vote after some discussion. The Jedi Council: Charge up your laser swords, boys, I bet if we behead enough of the non-droids we can wrap this up before that pansy "democracy" can even open discussion.

Basically, if you get to the "execute order 66" bit of the movie and a good third of the audience is thinking "well, that seems like a reasonable contingency plan and a rational time to execute it" instead of "oh, no!" then you needed to think your political allegory through a little better. Or, you know, not dedicated the entire second movie to a ham-fisted political allegory that makes the audience start thinking about it in the first place, either one.
 
2012-02-12 02:01:25 PM

Jim_Callahan: Sith apprentices killed by their master's betrayal in all six movies: zero


images.wikia.com

Count Dookoo says hello "Why did you give me such a stupid name, George Lucas?"
 
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