I've heard some claim that we should reduce (unionized) teacher salaries -- because then we'd get the best teachers who feel driven to teach.

The world needs ditch diggers, too.

i graduated from college and i'm still poor as fark

here's a poem i call "new york times"

NEW YORK TIMES?!
NEW YORK TIMES?!
YOU THINK YOU'RE BETTER THAN US?!
US?!
US?!
U.S.
U.S.A.
NO WAY!

"The difference between ignorant and educated people is that the latter know more facts. But that has nothing to do with whether they are stupid or intelligent. The difference between stupid and intelligent people-and this is true whether or not they are well-educated-is that intelligent people can handle subtlety. They are not baffled by ambiguous or even contradictory situations-in fact, they expect them and are apt to become suspicious when things seem overly straightforward."

"We have moved from a society in the 1950s and 1960s, in which race was more consequential than family income, to one today in which family income appears more determinative of educational success than race," said Sean F. Reardon, a Stanford University sociologist.

That's actually a "good" thing in that it suggests systemic racism is no longer a factor in success.

GoodyearPimp: I've heard some claim that we should reduce (unionized) teacher salaries -- because then we'd get the best teachers who feel driven to teach.

Mostly idealists are "driven" to teach... and that only lasts a few years before the drive is crushed out of them, like in any job.

For any position the answer is simple - higher salaries attract higher talent. I didn't get into engineering because I had a drive to do math. I got into engineering because I had a drive to get money.

"We have moved from a society in the 1950s and 1960s, in which race was more consequential than family income, to one today in which family income appears more determinative of educational success than race,"

I don't know what world she is living in. The achievement gap has not substantially changed between black and white in academics,

I, for one, am shocked.

I toured a prospective Kindergarten yesterday (our daughter is currently in preschool; we live in Los Angeles).

One parent in our group asked about financial aid and scholarships. The lady leading the school tour responding that, yes, they do in fact offer limited financial aid for families earning less than $120,000/year.

I guess that means if you gross less than $10,000/month and live in Los Angeles, you're "needy."

The lady emphasized that financial aid is determined primarily by income, and those families earning closer to $80K/year will be more likely to get aid before those earning $120K/year.

Oh, tuition for the Kindergarten is $1,500/month.

\LAUSD schools blow
\\No one wants to send their kids to public schools here unless they're one of the few good charter schools around

Funny since the richest guy in the country is a college drop out, and I know plenty of graduates who can't hold jobs of any substance.

Rapmaster2000: GoodyearPimp: I've heard some claim that we should reduce (unionized) teacher salaries -- because then we'd get the best teachers who feel driven to teach.

Mostly idealists are "driven" to teach... and that only lasts a few years before the drive is crushed out of them, like in any job.

For any position the answer is simple - higher salaries attract higher talent. I didn't get into engineering because I had a drive to do math. I got into engineering because I had a drive to get money.

Same reason I went to medical school. Fairly often I'm told this is "the wrong reason to go into medicine."

I like orthopaedic surgery, and I like money. Just got lucky that so far, I get to enjoy both at the same time.

Mugato: I don't think there are too many scientists are in the .01%.

Starting salary for my wife, who has an Ivy League Ph.D. in immunology, working in a virology lab: $34,000.

thinkfuzzy: Sorta...

It's a catch 22. The majority of poor are poor because of lack of education and they lack education because they are poor. It's not because they had/have the access to a good education and are just unable to learn. Yes, there are some that are genetic mouthbreathers, but not all of them.

That was supposed to be the goal of public schools, to offer the same opportunity for education to everyone. But since school funding is based of property taxes, the rich get the better schooling, the poor get worse education. This lessens their chance at being able to cross the poverty line.

It's not as simple as, you're smart so you're rich, you're dumb so you're poor.

But that plays more into it than is allowed to be said. Smarter people tend to make more money (not all, but they tend to make more). Dumber people tend to make less money. Smarter people also tend to attract smarter mates and have smarter children. The opposite effect happens with dumb people.

And funding differences are overstated. The top input into the quality of a school is the students. Garbage in, garbage out. This is why I disagree with GOP 'school choice' or 'voucher' initiatives. If you took all the kids out of inner city crackton elementary and sent them to rich suburb utopia school, and vice versa, rich suburb utopia school would have the same problems that crackton elementary had.

Im pretty sure the illegitimate rich people are the ones who control monetary policy. You know, the bankers that are in bed with the politicians. The bankers who get money from the Federal Reserve for free, and lend it back to the government by buying bonds and charging 3%. Yeah, I wonder what Goldman Sachs has to say about it? Oh yeah they are backing Romney AND Obama.

I think my favorite related topic to this is school vouchers. You know, the thing conservatives insist is going to go so far toward solving those problems.

Conservative: "Oh, your school sucks donkey balls because two thirds of the parents in the district are illiterate and on welfare so there's no tax base and the school can barely afford to keep half the lights on, much less buy appropriate learning materials? No problem! School vouchers! Just use 'em to send your kid to private school!"

Parents: "Great! Awesome! Time to break the cycle of poverty! I'll vote for that right now!"

Parents: "Hey, private school, I have this voucher, let my kid in!"

Private school: "Fark off, kid. You're too poor. Or black. Or both."

Parents: "Hey, Conservative, they won't let me in!"

Conservative: "Yea, about that. I used my voucher to further defund the local school district and cut my bill on the private school my kid was already going to, sorry about your poorness. But maybe if you were awesome and bootstrappy like me you'd know how to manipulate the system to your personal benefit as well. Anyway, see you next election when I come pandering by to try and get a few extra votes and convince you that all your problems are your own fault"

Kids: "Fark this, I'm going to join a gang, shoot that conservative asshole's kid in the face and take my mom's money back in blood..."

Aaaaaand then we segue into being tough on crime and cutting low income benefits even further so we can afford to send all the poor people to prison for longer without raising taxes on people who then wouldn't be able to afford an extra twenty feet on their luxury yacht....

I don't understand

Insurgent: here's a poem i call "new york times"

NEW YORK TIMES?!
NEW YORK TIMES?!
YOU THINK YOU'RE BETTER THAN US?!
US?!
US?!
U.S.
U.S.A.
NO WAY!

That's not a poem, it doesn't rhyme.

As usual, the NYTimes is farking as wrong as wrong can possibly be.
No reporter or editor who works there knows farkall about class issues, except as abstract academic concepts.

Rev. Skarekroe: GoodyearPimp: I've heard some claim that we should reduce (unionized) teacher salaries -- because then we'd get the best teachers who feel driven to teach.

Those same people will tell you that corporate executives need their bonuses and bloated salaries because it's the only way to keep them from moving on to other companies.

Of course, they'd be right about that one. But that shouldn't concern you unless you own the company - you're not paying for it. You should be concerned with teacher salaries because you are a taxpayer. Although the cited rationale to reduce teacher salary is ridiculous. We need to attract better teachers, and the cost of that probably includes increased salaries.

How did all of their Education work out for us in 2008?

Actually as a rule the war is between the south and ordinary people. We should have let them break off from the US and become Bonerland.

HotIgneous Intruder: As usual, the NYTimes is farking as wrong as wrong can possibly be.
No reporter or editor who works there knows farkall about class issues, except as abstract academic concepts.

Present the data for your counterargument.

thinkfuzzy: Sorta...

It's a catch 22. The majority of poor are poor because of lack of education and they lack education because they are poor. It's not because they had/have the access to a good education and are just unable to learn. Yes, there are some that are genetic mouthbreathers, but not all of them.

That was supposed to be the goal of public schools, to offer the same opportunity for education to everyone. But since school funding is based of property taxes, the rich get the better schooling, the poor get worse education. This lessens their chance at being able to cross the poverty line.

It's not as simple as, you're smart so you're rich, you're dumb so you're poor.

Fact: Inner-city Chicago schools receive more money per student than suburban schools.

If your little hypothesis were true, the Chicago kids would be much more successful than the suburban schools. This is far from the case.

I wonder if parenting has anything to do with this? Maybe successful parents stress eduction more? Maybe successful parents teach their kids that working hard and excelling in school is something of which to be proud.

HotIgneous Intruder: As usual, the NYTimes is farking as wrong as wrong can possibly be.
No reporter or editor who works there knows farkall about class issues, except as abstract academic concepts.

Wow.... you could not possibly have exemplified the entire point any better if you tried... congratulations on being a walking example of all that is wrong with the educational values in our country.

/ also, stfu Jethro, everything you post in every thread you post in is idiotic

I'm 31 and I easily make about five times what my parents did at my age; we had government cheese when I was a kid. Most of my friends in grade school had parents that made a lot more money than mine. Some are still my friends (small town and all that) and now I make a lot more than my friends do... none of them are mouth breathers. So how did this happen??

Disgruntled Infantryman: Rapmaster2000: GoodyearPimp: I've heard some claim that we should reduce (unionized) teacher salaries -- because then we'd get the best teachers who feel driven to teach.

Mostly idealists are "driven" to teach... and that only lasts a few years before the drive is crushed out of them, like in any job.

For any position the answer is simple - higher salaries attract higher talent. I didn't get into engineering because I had a drive to do math. I got into engineering because I had a drive to get money.

Same reason I went to medical school. Fairly often I'm told this is "the wrong reason to go into medicine."

I like orthopaedic surgery, and I like money. Just got lucky that so far, I get to enjoy both at the same time.

I don't hate engineering. I like it, but I really don't care. I'd be just as happy doing finance or accounting. This was the shortest route to getting the hell out of redneckburg. A desire for a better life is the best motivator regardless.

I'm reminded of something I've heard a few times - never open a restaurant because you would love to open a restaurant. Open a restaurant because you want to make money owning a restaurant.

People who would love to be a restauranter find that the romance fades pretty quickly when the toilet backs up for the 20th time, and one of your waitresses didn't show, and bartender is passing out booze to his friends, and you're working your 10th 14 hour day in a row.

thinkfuzzy: Sorta...

It's a catch 22. The majority of poor are poor because of lack of education and they lack education because they are poor. It's not because they had/have the access to a good education and are just unable to learn. Yes, there are some that are genetic mouthbreathers, but not all of them.

That was supposed to be the goal of public schools, to offer the same opportunity for education to everyone. But since school funding is based of property taxes, the rich get the better schooling, the poor get worse education. This lessens their chance at being able to cross the poverty line.

It's not as simple as, you're smart so you're rich, you're dumb so you're poor.

What's interesting is that in the united states, we have 100% fully funded pre-school (for the poor, at least), primary school and secondary school. We have scholarships available that allow students who are smart and study hard and do well in school.

Also, school funding and school success are not in any way dependent on each other. Look at the Washington DC schools, for example. They have the second highest funding of any district (on a per pupil basis) in the nation but are horribly failing, some of the worst in the country.

The most accurate indicators of poverty are: Failing to complete high school, illegal drug use, criminal convictions, severe medical bills, and single parenthood before marriage.

thomps: In another study, by researchers from the University of Michigan, the imbalance between rich and poor children in college completion - the single most important predictor of success in the work force - has grown by about 50 percent since the late 1980s.

this is fairly f*cked up to think about.

Not really when you think about how scholarships have tripled for poor kids to go to school and the fact that we have open borders flooding the work force, schools and the off spring of people who can't even read their own language let alone read or speak ours.

This seems about right if you factor in everything.


//Then again I'm an uneducated mouth breather so what do I know........

LockeOak:
Starting salary for my wife, who has an Ivy League Ph.D. in immunology, working in a virology lab: $34,000.


That seems to be true of many PhDs in the biological sciences. Mid-$30,000 to low-$40,000 seems to be quite common.

DavidVincent: "We have moved from a society in the 1950s and 1960s, in which race was more consequential than family income, to one today in which family income appears more determinative of educational success than race,"

I don't know what world she is living in. The achievement gap has not substantially changed between black and white in academics,

Statistics says otherwise. Blacks are more often poor by a large margin, but a white student and a black student who are of the same poverty level will preform about the same as shown in the graph in the article. And where a black student of wealth will greatly outperform a white student of poverty obviously. Whereas in the 50s wealth didn't play much of a factor in the education levels of blacks.

Rapmaster2000: I'm reminded of something I've heard a few times - never open a restaurant because you would love to open a restaurant. Open a restaurant because you want to make money owning a restaurant.

People who would love to be a restauranter find that the romance fades pretty quickly when the toilet backs up for the 20th time, and one of your waitresses didn't show, and bartender is passing out booze to his friends, and you're working your 10th 14 hour day in a row.

I've heard the opposite because the chances you're going to make money owning a restaurant are slim to none, so you better farking love it in the process.

"...Maybe successful parents teach their kids that working hard and excelling in school is something of which to be proud."


Well, that + 75 cents will get you a coke out of the vending machine.

fullerton: thinkfuzzy: Sorta...

It's a catch 22. The majority of poor are poor because of lack of education and they lack education because they are poor. It's not because they had/have the access to a good education and are just unable to learn. Yes, there are some that are genetic mouthbreathers, but not all of them.

That was supposed to be the goal of public schools, to offer the same opportunity for education to everyone. But since school funding is based of property taxes, the rich get the better schooling, the poor get worse education. This lessens their chance at being able to cross the poverty line.

It's not as simple as, you're smart so you're rich, you're dumb so you're poor.

Fact: Inner-city Chicago schools receive more money per student than suburban schools.

If your little hypothesis were true, the Chicago kids would be much more successful than the suburban schools. This is far from the case.

I wonder if parenting has anything to do with this? Maybe successful parents stress eduction more? Maybe successful parents teach their kids that working hard and excelling in school is something of which to be proud.


Occam's razor, (no, not the Farker): from among competing hypotheses, selecting the one that makes the fewest assumptions usually provides the correct one.

Wouldn't the simplest answer be genetics?

Insurgent: i graduated from college and i'm still poor as fark

I got my GED about 6 years after my class graduated high school and I make six figures (barely). Don't get me wrong, education is important and my kids will go to college but it isn't as simple as "go to school and be successful".

The problem is a puzzle, he said. "No one has the slightest idea what will work. The cupboard is bare."

Here is the problem. Completely retarded people are looking into this and then say shiat like this.

Here's what works; get an education, marry somebody else with an education, both of you work your asses off for 20 years before having a kid. Don't want to do that? Then suffer. How is that not obvious?

thinkfuzzy: Sorta...

It's a catch 22. The majority of poor are poor because of lack of education and they lack education because they are poor. It's not because they had/have the access to a good education and are just unable to learn. Yes, there are some that are genetic mouthbreathers, but not all of them.

That was supposed to be the goal of public schools, to offer the same opportunity for education to everyone. But since school funding is based of property taxes, the rich get the better schooling, the poor get worse education. This lessens their chance at being able to cross the poverty line.

It's not as simple as, you're smart so you're rich, you're dumb so you're poor.

I have long maintained that property taxes are the worst way to fund public schools. It makes decisions far too local, myopic and self-interested.

thomps: Farkn Yaj Yenrac: Funny since the richest guy in the country is a college drop out, and I know plenty of graduates who can't hold jobs of any substance.

so you're saying that if i had dropped out of college i would be the richest man in the country?

Just burn your degree, there's still a chance. Keep hope alive.

das: The world needs ditch diggers, too.

While this is true, someone is going to have to get their hands dirty. I have seen college degreed people (beyond bachelor's degree) who have absolutely no common sense what so ever.

That piece of paper isn't all it is cracked up to be for some people.


worked a blue collar job 30yrs, retired at 49, and got my RN degree. life is good