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(The New York Times)   So can a Jehovah's Witness institution deny coverage for blood transfusions? Can a Hindu organization deny bovine based insulin? Can a Jewish or Muslim group deny porcine heart valves?   (opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com ) divider line
    More: Scary, Hindus, muslims, employment discrimination, Ohio Republican, insulin, Rob Portman, hospital system, institutions  
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5641 clicks; posted to Politics » on 09 Feb 2012 at 4:37 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-02-09 02:31:49 PM  
Silly subby...

You seem to be under the impression that this is anything other than a manufactured right wing attack on the President.

29 states, IIRC, already impose similar mandates on employers, but you didn't hear a peep about it because it wasn't time to usurp the Kenyan, Muslim Usurper.
 
2012-02-09 02:42:36 PM  

halfof33: Can a straw man factory refuse to cover a straw man whose straw has fallen out?


[FUNNY]
 
2012-02-09 02:43:00 PM  
Is health insurance a "god given right", an entitlement, or an employee benefit?
 
2012-02-09 02:43:10 PM  

SphericalTime: The answer appears to be no. The religious institution can't force their workers to abide by the strictures of their faith through the manipulation of health insurance, it's up to the conscience of the individual to make the determination for him or herself.

That's excellent news for the 98% of Catholic women who use birth control.


That stat can't be correct. That has to be higher than the National average. Catholic women probably use birth control just as much as the general public. No more or less. 98% implies that all straight women and even some of the lesbians are using it.
 
2012-02-09 02:44:28 PM  

muck4doo: Mugato: As someone who knew a girl very close to me who was trapped in that farking cult, fark the Jehovah's Witnesses. Their refusal of blood transfusions for their children is only one of their backward ass offenses. But that's not really what this is about so I digress.

There are some things I like about them, but that, and the whole "shunning" thing of people who leave is a bit extreme.


"Shunning" is a part of most religions/money-making schemes. Scientology makes you write disconnect letters. Catholics have excommunication. Islam has...well, you know.
 
2012-02-09 02:49:04 PM  

EnviroDude: Is health insurance a "god given right", an entitlement, or an employee benefit?


A good source for trollbait
 
2012-02-09 02:50:27 PM  

The Onion is prophetic: EnviroDude: Is health insurance a "god given right", an entitlement, or an employee benefit?

A good source for trollbait


He said while placing the hook securely in his lip.
 
2012-02-09 02:51:19 PM  

gimmegimme: "Shunning" is a part of most religions/money-making schemes. Scientology makes you write disconnect letters. Catholics have excommunication. Islam has...well, you know.


No, not like this it isn't. How many Catholics do you know who were excommunicated and disavowed from all of their family/friends? As for the Muslims, everyone looks to the lunatic fringe for examples of all Muslim behavior but it's not like that with most Muslims. The practices of the Witnesses are by definition committed by the 100%.
 
2012-02-09 02:52:29 PM  

mrshowrules:

That stat can't be correct. That has to be higher than the National average. Catholic women probably use birth control just as much as the general public. No more or less. 98% implies that all straight women and even some of the lesbians are using it.


98% have used at some point, or are currently using birth control.

Lesbians absolutely could be using it, for reasons I said earlier, such as irregular/painful periods, fibroids, endometriosis, PMDD, PCOS, cysts, etc. Lesbians don' t get a pass on all the things that can suck about the female reproductive system. Birth control is used to treat these conditions more often than not because it is effective at doing so.
 
2012-02-09 02:57:47 PM  

Mugato: gimmegimme: "Shunning" is a part of most religions/money-making schemes. Scientology makes you write disconnect letters. Catholics have excommunication. Islam has...well, you know.

No, not like this it isn't. How many Catholics do you know who were excommunicated and disavowed from all of their family/friends? As for the Muslims, everyone looks to the lunatic fringe for examples of all Muslim behavior but it's not like that with most Muslims. The practices of the Witnesses are by definition committed by the 100%.


John Kerry was excommunicated for not protecting blastocyst rights. You're right that few Catholics TODAY would supershun an excommunicant, but on some level, they're supposed to. (Can you imagine how offensive it would be for a piece of the body of Christ to be eaten by an excommunicant? A good Catholic would make a running leap, Die Hard-style, to keep this from happening.) Only decades ago, pregnant Catholic girls were indeed shunned by their communities. Further, Kerry is no longer permitted to go to Heaven (as he apparently believes it to be), as he's prohibited from receiving the sacraments.

Link (new window)
 
2012-02-09 02:57:52 PM  

serpent_sky: mrshowrules:

That stat can't be correct. That has to be higher than the National average. Catholic women probably use birth control just as much as the general public. No more or less. 98% implies that all straight women and even some of the lesbians are using it.

98% have used at some point, or are currently using birth control.

Lesbians absolutely could be using it, for reasons I said earlier, such as irregular/painful periods, fibroids, endometriosis, PMDD, PCOS, cysts, etc. Lesbians don' t get a pass on all the things that can suck about the female reproductive system. Birth control is used to treat these conditions more often than not because it is effective at doing so.


So why doesn't some enterprising young pharmecutical company just repackage the goddamn thing as an endometriosis pain reliever and the doctors can prescribe it that way to all the people who work for the Catholics?
 
2012-02-09 03:01:15 PM  
Soon Obama will have enough precedent in the courts to make following any religion in America a crime. That's his ultimate goal here, people. Once he revokes your right to worship and you have nothing to turn to, no place to seek solace, that's when he strikes. You'll gleefully march to the death camps while you long to flee the coming hell on earth and meet your Creator.
 
2012-02-09 03:02:52 PM  

serpent_sky: mrshowrules:

That stat can't be correct. That has to be higher than the National average. Catholic women probably use birth control just as much as the general public. No more or less. 98% implies that all straight women and even some of the lesbians are using it.

98% have used at some point, or are currently using birth control.

Lesbians absolutely could be using it, for reasons I said earlier, such as irregular/painful periods, fibroids, endometriosis, PMDD, PCOS, cysts, etc. Lesbians don' t get a pass on all the things that can suck about the female reproductive system. Birth control is used to treat these conditions more often than not because it is effective at doing so.


Missed the "have used it at some point". Still seems high. What's the National average?
 
2012-02-09 03:03:38 PM  

imapirate: Soon Obama will have enough precedent in the courts to make following any religion in America a crime. That's his ultimate goal here, people. Once he revokes your right to worship and you have nothing to turn to, no place to seek solace, that's when he strikes. You'll gleefully march to the death camps while you long to flee the coming hell on earth and meet your Creator.


See, Envirodude? That's what you should strive for. You want the reader to be able to actually visualize the bit of spittle at the corner of your mouth as you type.
 
2012-02-09 03:03:49 PM  

imapirate: Soon Obama will have enough precedent in the courts to make following any religion in America a crime. That's his ultimate goal here, people. Once he revokes your right to worship and you have nothing to turn to, no place to seek solace, that's when he strikes. You'll gleefully march to the death camps while you long to flee the coming hell on earth and meet your Creator.


i454.photobucket.comi454.photobucket.com
 
2012-02-09 03:07:29 PM  

mrshowrules: Missed the "have used it at some point". Still seems high. What's the National average?


They also say 97%-98%.

I do wonder if they are also including the morning after pill once or twice, though I guess that does count, since that also is something covered by insurance.
 
2012-02-09 03:12:09 PM  

mrshowrules: serpent_sky: mrshowrules:

That stat can't be correct. That has to be higher than the National average. Catholic women probably use birth control just as much as the general public. No more or less. 98% implies that all straight women and even some of the lesbians are using it.

98% have used at some point, or are currently using birth control.

Lesbians absolutely could be using it, for reasons I said earlier, such as irregular/painful periods, fibroids, endometriosis, PMDD, PCOS, cysts, etc. Lesbians don' t get a pass on all the things that can suck about the female reproductive system. Birth control is used to treat these conditions more often than not because it is effective at doing so.

Missed the "have used it at some point". Still seems high. What's the National average?


According to the CDC, around 84% of women are current users of birth control. In the neighborhood of 80% of men either use a method themselves, or their partner uses one. Also remember that of the 16% of women who are NOT using birth control, many of them are trying to get pregnant.

Source (new window)
 
2012-02-09 03:12:23 PM  

gimmegimme: John Kerry was excommunicated for not protecting blastocyst rights. You're right that few Catholics TODAY would supershun an excommunicant, but on some level, they're supposed to


Supposed to being the operative phrase. I'm not going to insult or bore you by naming all the things Catholics are supposed to do but don't. And no, I'm not talking about that. And how many Catholics are required to deny their children's existence if they decide to leave the religion? Apples and oranges.
 
2012-02-09 03:30:57 PM  

dahmers love zombie: According to the CDC, around 84% of women are current users of birth control. In the neighborhood of 80% of men either use a method themselves, or their partner uses one. Also remember that of the 16% of women who are NOT using birth control, many of them are trying to get pregnant.


Also some I'd assume are just not sexually active.

/You know, the ones who have been married for more than 5 years.
 
2012-02-09 03:31:46 PM  

dahmers love zombie: According to the CDC, around 84% of women are current users of birth control. In the neighborhood of 80% of men either use a method themselves, or their partner uses one. Also remember that of the 16% of women who are NOT using birth control, many of them are trying to get pregnant.


Sounds about right.

Let's face it -- we have to be in control of our reproduction. I'm a married woman, I don't want to use condoms, so it's on me to use something unless we want to have a million kids, which we don't. Most people like to plan their pregnancies -- if they want them at all -- so they have the money, resources, room, time for a child, etc.

I don't see the Catholic Church, with its millions of (non-taxable) dollars providing for people who cannot afford a/another baby, and while they say Jesus will provide, clearly, he's slacking or there wouldn't be so much poverty in this country.

The fact that the church is a solid patriarchal hierarchy has an awful lot to do with this. If priests (or little boys -- sorry to be so cynical, but... let's be real) could get pregnant, they'd not be screaming about merely providing insurance that covers it (which I thought almost all insurances did as it is just a prescription) IN CASE someone who works for an organization needs or wants birth control, to prevent pregnancies and/or for treating legitimate health issues. (The reason isn't their business, but I will still keep throwing that out there.)
 
2012-02-09 03:32:18 PM  

dahmers love zombie: mrshowrules: serpent_sky: mrshowrules:

That stat can't be correct. That has to be higher than the National average. Catholic women probably use birth control just as much as the general public. No more or less. 98% implies that all straight women and even some of the lesbians are using it.

98% have used at some point, or are currently using birth control.

Lesbians absolutely could be using it, for reasons I said earlier, such as irregular/painful periods, fibroids, endometriosis, PMDD, PCOS, cysts, etc. Lesbians don' t get a pass on all the things that can suck about the female reproductive system. Birth control is used to treat these conditions more often than not because it is effective at doing so.

Missed the "have used it at some point". Still seems high. What's the National average?

According to the CDC, around 84% of women are current users of birth control. In the neighborhood of 80% of men either use a method themselves, or their partner uses one. Also remember that of the 16% of women who are NOT using birth control, many of them are trying to get pregnant.

Source (new window)


So what you are saying is that (all else being equal) I'm better off picking up a Catholic woman from a bar and nailing her if I want to go bare back?

/not serious
//thanks for the stats.
 
2012-02-09 03:40:46 PM  

serpent_sky: 98% have used at some point, or are currently using birth control.


...and 2% are still virgins?
 
2012-02-09 03:43:20 PM  
This is just the tip of the iceberg. They're forcing abortion pills on us to make us weak, to break our resolve. Once they strip you of your faith, they'll come for your hollow shell of a body and reprogram you. You'll smile as your rights are shredded, as they make your children bow in servitude to the man-god Obama. They will cackle in laughter as they stoke the flames beneath your feet, making an example of you to the once-faithful - worship of anyone but the man-god will not be tolerated.
 
2012-02-09 04:03:28 PM  
You know what would solve all this? Disconnect our healthcare from our employers. Say some public option that would stay with us when we left our job and our employer wouldn't be paying for things they find morally bad AND we wouldn't be denied care based on their whims.
 
2012-02-09 04:05:35 PM  
It's almost as if religion is fkn stupid.

Fk you, idiots.
 
2012-02-09 04:07:21 PM  
What's the biblical basis for not allowing contraception? Can a practicing/ex-Catholic explain this to me?
 
2012-02-09 04:07:32 PM  

James!: You know what would solve all this? Disconnect our healthcare from our employers. Say some public option that would stay with us when we left our job and our employer wouldn't be paying for things they find morally bad AND we wouldn't be denied care based on their whims.



People should grow up and stop believing in fairy tales.
 
2012-02-09 04:09:40 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: James!: You know what would solve all this? Disconnect our healthcare from our employers. Say some public option that would stay with us when we left our job and our employer wouldn't be paying for things they find morally bad AND we wouldn't be denied care based on their whims.


People should grow up and stop believing in fairy tales.


Yeah, good luck with that. At least my thing is possible.
 
2012-02-09 04:12:45 PM  

mysticcat: What's the biblical basis for not allowing contraception? Can a practicing/ex-Catholic explain this to me?


Look, it's like this. God's all powerful, right? Well, really, He isn't that all powerful.

And when you mess with His eggs, you're messing with His emotions. He's kind of like Big Worm in that way.
 
2012-02-09 04:13:35 PM  

mysticcat: What's the biblical basis for not allowing contraception? Can a practicing/ex-Catholic explain this to me?


"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Jeremiah 1:5
 
2012-02-09 04:17:31 PM  

EnviroDude: Is health insurance a "god given right", an entitlement, or an employee benefit?


The latter 2. The first one doesn't exist.
 
2012-02-09 04:23:24 PM  

DamnYankees: EnviroDude: Is health insurance a "god given right", an entitlement, or an employee benefit?

The latter 2. The first one doesn't exist.


The constitution disagrees. We have been endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights.....
 
2012-02-09 04:25:10 PM  

EnviroDude: DamnYankees: EnviroDude: Is health insurance a "god given right", an entitlement, or an employee benefit?

The latter 2. The first one doesn't exist.

The constitution disagrees. We have been endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights.....


Haha. Ok, you made me laugh.
 
2012-02-09 04:26:22 PM  

Mugato: As someone who knew a girl very close to me who was trapped in that farking cult, fark the Jehovah's Witnesses. Their refusal of blood transfusions for their children is only one of their backward ass offenses.


muck4doo: There are some things I like about them, but that, and the whole "shunning" thing of people who leave is a bit extreme.


I don't mean to entirely take away from the overall discussion, but as an admittedly liberal Witness, the whole excommunication process may seem extreme to most, but it's their way of interpreting the Bible's view of those who reject the faith after already having accepted it and baptized themselves into the religion. Admittedly, within the religion there are strict parents who force their children to be in the religion, but like the fringe Muslims you mentioned at one point, these are the minority. There are many people who grew up with Witness parents but were never baptized because they simply never accepted the religion, and they are treated usually normally by the parents.

As for the refusal of blood transfusions to children, by now there has been enough research to have developed various alternatives to blood transfusions to the point where it is much safer for children as long as the surgery is done by capable doctors and soon enough. Also, with the decline in blood donations, the cost of blood has gone up through the years, and as a result in some cases these alternatives cost the hospital less than the blood transfusions themselves, which has caused more hospitals to research bloodless surgery.

So, in summary, I am perturbed by the precedent that the administration is making with this Catholic-contraception conundrum.
 
2012-02-09 04:29:46 PM  

EnviroDude: DamnYankees: EnviroDude: Is health insurance a "god given right", an entitlement, or an employee benefit?

The latter 2. The first one doesn't exist.

The constitution disagrees. We have been endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights.....


Get a load of the guy who can't tell a declaration from a constitution!
 
2012-02-09 04:32:04 PM  

EnviroDude: Is health insurance a "god given right", an entitlement, or an employee benefit?


Depends on who's getting farked, doesn't it?
 
2012-02-09 04:33:25 PM  

James!: The Onion is prophetic: EnviroDude: Is health insurance a "god given right", an entitlement, or an employee benefit?

A good source for trollbait

He said while placing the hook securely in his lip.


I've learned that you cant just ignore Enviro, otherwise he'll go to Santorum-level derp to get bites... strategic periodic replies keep him happy and save all of our brains.

/I don't use the Ignore feature except for the most idiotic of trolls... ED's not quite there yet
 
2012-02-09 04:34:18 PM  

I Have The Touch of a Shocked Monkey: As for the refusal of blood transfusions to children, by now there has been enough research to have developed various alternatives to blood transfusions to the point where it is much safer for children as long as the surgery is done by capable doctors and soon enough. Also, with the decline in blood donations, the cost of blood has gone up through the years, and as a result in some cases these alternatives cost the hospital less than the blood transfusions themselves, which has caused more hospitals to research bloodless surgery.


I have not the words for how incorrect this paragraph is. I'm... No. Just no.

Capable adults can choose to martyr themselves. They should not be able to martyr their children.
 
2012-02-09 04:34:50 PM  

imapirate: *fart*


Such a cute little sailor cap! Did your mommy buy it for you?
 
2012-02-09 04:37:01 PM  

imapirate: *farts the alphabet*


Say "excuse me!"
 
2012-02-09 04:38:00 PM  
If a little pill can prevent God from doing something He really wants to do, then either it's a helluva pill or He's not much of a God.
 
2012-02-09 04:38:06 PM  
For fark's sake, didn't we just do this yesterday?
 
2012-02-09 04:39:20 PM  

James!: You know what would solve all this? Disconnect our healthcare from our employers. Say some public option that would stay with us when we left our job and our employer wouldn't be paying for things they find morally bad AND we wouldn't be denied care based on their whims.


Not letting our employers decide what's best for us? That there's socialism, that is.
 
2012-02-09 04:41:06 PM  

Tatsuma: As an official spokesman of the Jewish World someone who knows what he's talking about:


We Jews are 100% fine with porcine heart valves, or any other life-saving operations that involve porcine products.

Thank you.


I thought you guys didn't like it because when you ate the hearts of the unbelievers you might accidentally eat some swine?
 
2012-02-09 04:41:28 PM  

I Have The Touch of a Shocked Monkey: There are many people who grew up with Witness parents but were never baptized because they simply never accepted the religion, and they are treated usually normally by the parents.


But they're able to "choose" to be Baptized as early as say for instance, 14 years old? Inspiring freedom of choice you give your children before threatening them with being shunned by their own family.
 
2012-02-09 04:44:21 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Among other things, I am morally opposed to money being spent on wars and capital punishment. And yet I am inexplicably forced to pay for these things through my taxes. And when I hire someone to work for me, I must pay a share of taxes for these things on their behalf as well. I demand that I be allowed a "conscience" exemption.


Same here. Also, I don't have kids in school, and yet I have to pay for the damn things out of my property taxes. A lot.

Its almost like the implied contract we live under as a society requires us to compromise and pay for things we don't enjoy, or even oppose vehemently, to enjoy its fruits.

Except for those who don't want to pay for rubbers. They totally get an exemption from that because Jesus.
 
2012-02-09 04:46:38 PM  
Witness' generally flee when I tell the I'm catholic, as do Mormons. If I feel playful, I'll ask how many Witnesses there are (millions) and how many will be saved (144,000) and say I like the odds better staying catholic.
 
2012-02-09 04:49:38 PM  
No.
 
2012-02-09 04:49:42 PM  
So can a Jehovah's Witness institution deny coverage for blood transfusions? Can a Hindu organization deny bovine based insulin? Can a Jewish or Muslim group deny porcine heart valves?

No. Because none of those institutions are Christian. Get with the program.
 
2012-02-09 04:51:09 PM  

dahmers love zombie: I Have The Touch of a Shocked Monkey: As for the refusal of blood transfusions to children, by now there has been enough research to have developed various alternatives to blood transfusions to the point where it is much safer for children as long as the surgery is done by capable doctors and soon enough. Also, with the decline in blood donations, the cost of blood has gone up through the years, and as a result in some cases these alternatives cost the hospital less than the blood transfusions themselves, which has caused more hospitals to research bloodless surgery.

I have not the words for how incorrect this paragraph is. I'm... No. Just no.

Capable adults can choose to martyr themselves. They should not be able to martyr their children.


But what's exactly incorrect about it? There have been various examples of minors who have gone through complicated bloodless surgeries and achieved success doing so. Also, there are various bloodless alternatives used for both adults and children.

As for the idea of martyring, admittedly you run a risk with bloodless surgery as you would with any type of surgery. I mean, you run similar risks from human error in blood transfusions anyways. So, would you like to point out to me where I was incorrect?

Mugato: I Have The Touch of a Shocked Monkey: There are many people who grew up with Witness parents but were never baptized because they simply never accepted the religion, and they are treated usually normally by the parents.

But they're able to "choose" to be Baptized as early as say for instance, 14 years old? Inspiring freedom of choice you give your children before threatening them with being shunned by their own family.


It's a good point, and honestly I was baptized at 13, but I was already aware of all the excommunication procedures, and it's generally a given that you get baptized knowing what happens if you decide later in life to renounce the religion. However, you are right in that some get baptized too early due to pressures from parents, and that kind of baptism I don't approve of (and neither does the Bible), but like I mentioned earlier, this is usually the minority. Witness children usually do get baptized around 14 and 15.
 
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