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(NYPost)   New Jersey and nine other states given permission to leave a few children behind   (nypost.com) divider line 119
    More: Stupid, No Child Left Behind, New Jersey, White House officials, flexibility, United States  
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1778 clicks; posted to Politics » on 09 Feb 2012 at 12:08 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-02-09 08:31:48 AM
I have never seen any of these articles mention the responsibility of the parents to prepare their kids for schooling or actually participate in their education. Blame the teachers and the schools parents and continue to teach your kids that it's someone other than yourself at fault when you fail.

/pisses me off
 
2012-02-09 09:26:48 AM

AbbeySomeone: I have never seen any of these articles mention the responsibility of the parents to prepare their kids for schooling or actually participate in their education. Blame the teachers and the schools parents and continue to teach your kids that it's someone other than yourself at fault when you fail.

/pisses me off


To go even further, I've never seen any of these article mention the responsibility of the kids, either. Is it possible that it's not the teachers, but that the kid might just be stupid?
 
2012-02-09 09:37:08 AM

RexTalionis: AbbeySomeone: I have never seen any of these articles mention the responsibility of the parents to prepare their kids for schooling or actually participate in their education. Blame the teachers and the schools parents and continue to teach your kids that it's someone other than yourself at fault when you fail.

/pisses me off

To go even further, I've never seen any of these article mention the responsibility of the kids, either. Is it possible that it's not the teachers, but that the kid might just be stupid?


From my conversations with teachers that have taught in public and private schools, they seem to think that the parental involvement in private schools is light years ahead that of public. The conclusion they reach is that the parents of the troubled students in public schools don't give a flying fark if their Johnny can't read.
 
2012-02-09 09:56:43 AM

EnviroDude: RexTalionis: AbbeySomeone: I have never seen any of these articles mention the responsibility of the parents to prepare their kids for schooling or actually participate in their education. Blame the teachers and the schools parents and continue to teach your kids that it's someone other than yourself at fault when you fail.

/pisses me off

To go even further, I've never seen any of these article mention the responsibility of the kids, either. Is it possible that it's not the teachers, but that the kid might just be stupid?

From my conversations with teachers that have taught in public and private schools, they seem to think that the parental involvement in private schools is light years ahead that of public. The conclusion they reach is that the parents of the troubled students in public schools don't give a flying fark if their Johnny can't read.


Exactly.. This attitude is pervasive in public schools, particularly in poor neighborhoods. I've worked at many schools - public and private.
Hey parents, if your kid is f*cked up and causing problems it is your fault!
 
2012-02-09 12:01:50 PM

EnviroDude: RexTalionis: AbbeySomeone: I have never seen any of these articles mention the responsibility of the parents to prepare their kids for schooling or actually participate in their education. Blame the teachers and the schools parents and continue to teach your kids that it's someone other than yourself at fault when you fail.

/pisses me off

To go even further, I've never seen any of these article mention the responsibility of the kids, either. Is it possible that it's not the teachers, but that the kid might just be stupid?

From my conversations with teachers that have taught in public and private schools, they seem to think that the parental involvement in private schools is light years ahead that of public. The conclusion they reach is that the parents of the troubled students in public schools don't give a flying fark if their Johnny can't read.


Dear Christ, the Mayans were right. I have to agree with you here.

/csb time

Was in Best Buy and heard a conversation between a mother and some other female relative and the store employee where they sell the Leapster type stuff. The employee was trying to explain to the woman that games are gear towards learning and involve reading. She didn't want to get it because her kid didn't know how to read and was pretty much waiting for him to go to school to be taught. The child is 5.

/end csb time
 
2012-02-09 12:10:11 PM
I would be nice to live in a utopian world where every child could be reached and excelled and was the perfect snowflake that everyone wanted them to be.

It's a world where unicorns fly out of my ass.
 
2012-02-09 12:17:57 PM
Oblig.

bbsimg.ngfiles.com
 
2012-02-09 12:21:03 PM
The move gives long-sought leeway to states that promise to improve how they prepare and evaluate students.

Hey, Greece just promised to grow their economy starting in 2013 in return for a couple hundred billion in bailout money. If only we had realized earlier that promising good things in the future was the solution to present-day problems!
 
2012-02-09 12:21:12 PM
bbsimg.ngfiles.com

Obligatory.
 
2012-02-09 12:21:16 PM
As a priest of the Catholic Church, I must say I was initially disappointed when I misread subby's headline.
 
2012-02-09 12:22:23 PM
NCLB is a terrible system. Modern parents think they don't need to participate in their child's educatoin. On the other hand, now that women are able to do things other than teach and nurse, there really has been a major brain drain in schools in the last 30 years. From Superfreakonomics: "As a consequence, the schoolteacher corps began to experience a brain drain. In 1960, about 40 percent of female teachers scored in the top quintile of IQ and other aptitude tests, with only 8 percent in the bottom. Twenty years later, fewer than half as many were in the top quintile, more than twice as many in the bottom. It hardly helped that teachers' wages were falling significantly in relation to those of other jobs."
 
2012-02-09 12:24:06 PM
2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-02-09 12:24:52 PM

EnviroDude: RexTalionis: AbbeySomeone: I have never seen any of these articles mention the responsibility of the parents to prepare their kids for schooling or actually participate in their education. Blame the teachers and the schools parents and continue to teach your kids that it's someone other than yourself at fault when you fail.

/pisses me off

To go even further, I've never seen any of these article mention the responsibility of the kids, either. Is it possible that it's not the teachers, but that the kid might just be stupid?

From my conversations with teachers that have taught in public and private schools, they seem to think that the parental involvement in private schools is light years ahead that of public. The conclusion they reach is that the parents of the troubled students in public schools don't give a flying fark if their Johnny can't read.


Having done the private and public school thing, I find private schools go through much more effort to get the parent involved. In the public schools there seems to be an attitude of passing the buck, as in. Private school teacher: lets work together to make sure your child succeeds. Public school teacher: Your child is not perfect Fix it!
 
2012-02-09 12:24:55 PM

AbbeySomeone: I have never seen any of these articles mention the responsibility of the parents to prepare their kids for schooling or actually participate in their education. Blame the teachers and the schools parents and continue to teach your kids that it's someone other than yourself at fault when you fail.

/pisses me off


I just must be lucky, because the other parents at my kids public school are really involved with their kids. The school does a lot to reach out to them though.

We're in a solid working class/immigrant district though, so that might have something to do with it.
 
2012-02-09 12:28:12 PM
You can get away with this in the schools, but not the churches. They would never leave a child's behind.
 
2012-02-09 12:29:33 PM
NJ would also like to give permission to leave your kids in the car while you gamble in Atlantic City, they need the daycare money also.
 
2012-02-09 12:31:26 PM

Demetrius: I would be nice to live in a utopian world where every child could be reached and excelled and was the perfect snowflake that everyone wanted them to be.

It's a world where unicorns fly out of my ass.


According to NCLB all children are now supposed to be reading on grade level. ALL children, including the EC kids who have learning/cognitive disorders so profound that they cannot speak, or comprehend any sort of communication simply because they do not have the mental capacities to do so. For some kids, reading, writing, and arithmetic are literally impossible on any level, much less performing these disciplines on par with their own age/grade groupings.

NCLB was an empty gesture that was doomed to failure from the start. It was never about helping kids - it was about punishing schools.

/And now, every teacher in the US will be voting for Obama.
//Excellent timing on his part.
 
2012-02-09 12:32:20 PM
Only 10? All 50 should be exempt from this dumb farking law. When you link funding to performance on a test, that means teachers are going to spend less time teaching they way they should and more time teaching how to do well on that specific test. When you link funding to a minimum required performance, that means teachers are going to spend their time on the stupid kids in class and ignore the smarter or gifted ones.

My kid went to public school kindergarten reading chapter books and came home bragging about the newest letter he learned. "I learned F today!" "So farking what? I taught that to you years ago." They didn't have time for him. He wasn't gifted, he was parented. So he gets held back because apparently other people in the community are too shiatty of parents to read to their kid.
 
2012-02-09 12:39:40 PM
If you live in a poor neighborhood and go to a private school, you will likely do well. If you live in an affluent neighborhood and go to a public school, you will likely do well. If you live in a poor neighborhood and go to a public school, good luck.
 
2012-02-09 12:40:38 PM

ManateeGag: EnviroDude: RexTalionis: AbbeySomeone: I have never seen any of these articles mention the responsibility of the parents to prepare their kids for schooling or actually participate in their education. Blame the teachers and the schools parents and continue to teach your kids that it's someone other than yourself at fault when you fail.

/pisses me off

To go even further, I've never seen any of these article mention the responsibility of the kids, either. Is it possible that it's not the teachers, but that the kid might just be stupid?

From my conversations with teachers that have taught in public and private schools, they seem to think that the parental involvement in private schools is light years ahead that of public. The conclusion they reach is that the parents of the troubled students in public schools don't give a flying fark if their Johnny can't read.

Dear Christ, the Mayans were right. I have to agree with you here.

/csb time

Was in Best Buy and heard a conversation between a mother and some other female relative and the store employee where they sell the Leapster type stuff. The employee was trying to explain to the woman that games are gear towards learning and involve reading. She didn't want to get it because her kid didn't know how to read and was pretty much waiting for him to go to school to be taught. The child is 5.

/end csb time


My twin 5-year-olds have been reading for a couple of years now. This past Christmas my grandmother decided to buy each of them a LeapPad with a couple of math/reading games on it. For the next couple of weeks, it seemed like every spare minute of their time was spent on those damn games. The books that used to occupy most of their days (the parts that weren't taken up with running around outside)? Forgotten.

/it's such a shame I lost the AC adapters
//ah, well - back to books and board/card games!
///she meant well
 
2012-02-09 12:41:41 PM
Is it me, or has Fark been slow as hell the last two days? And I mean server speed, not number of headlines and/or discussions.
 
2012-02-09 12:42:11 PM
if the parents are paying for their kid to go to a private school, they automatically are more invested in the education of their child. They are actively seeking to make sure they get the best they can afford. It makes sense then that private school parents are more involved with their child's education.

/not that you can't get a great education in public school. My middle sister went to public school and has done way better in life than me, shes also smarter.
//needed the smaller class room size in private school
 
2012-02-09 12:44:52 PM
The law requires all students to be proficient in reading and math by 2014. Obama's action strips away that requirement in exchange for a viable substitute plan.

And that is the fatal flaw in NCLB - a basic misunderstanding of math. It assumes that every school can improve the percentage of kids who can pass a test every year, until 100% of the kids pass. If you can't improve every year, or if you ever slip down from that 100% - even by just one kid - your school gets a failing grade.

I'm not one of the people who are adamantly opposed to the federal government getting involved in education - it disburses enough money to schools that it should have some say in how it's spent, but why pass a law that'd doomed to failure from the start?
 
2012-02-09 12:46:58 PM
The Post blocks iPad users from their website (they want you to download the app), so I didn't get to read the article. But allow me to just say:

- New Jersey has, by far, the lowest drop out rate in the United States (source http://www.boostup.org)
- Our public schools are generally considered amongst the best in the country, and are a big reason why many people (especially those who work in New York City) move here (we do pay for it with our property taxes)
- What's the article biatching about?
 
2012-02-09 12:48:02 PM
NCLB- Written by a Kennedy; passed by RINO G. Bush.

No George, we do not miss you yet. And probably never will.
 
2012-02-09 12:49:33 PM

Mike Chewbacca: Is it me, or has Fark been slow as hell the last two days? And I mean server speed, not number of headlines and/or discussions.


Sure, Fark's a little slow. But is that any reason to leave it behind?
 
2012-02-09 12:49:40 PM
I have never seen any of these articles mention the responsibility of the parents to prepare their kids for schooling or actually participate in their education. Blame the teachers and the schools parents and continue to teach your kids that it's someone other than yourself at fault when you fail.

You and other posters are right on-but the flexibility for NCLB will be better for teachers in the long run. Teachers will now have the flexibility to be more creative with their teaching, and not be confined to simply "teach to the test". The are multiple ways students learn and teachers teach-NCLB stagnates creative teachers.


lennavan Kudos to you too. The good news is, because you are involved, you kid will be above the curve already. NCLB is like a shackle to good teachers.

NCLB standards on teachers are ridiculous also--making teachers be "highly qualified" based on some stupid tests did zero to improve quality. A poor government idea that only hindered the entrance of some really good people into the field of teaching. Namely me.
 
2012-02-09 12:51:26 PM
Good. NCLB is terrible legislation. Rote memorization is not learning. Perhaps a few of these states will actually use the waivers to develop more well-rounded curricula.
 
2012-02-09 12:52:14 PM
The law requires all students to be proficient in reading and math by 2014. Obama's action strips away that requirement in exchange for a viable substitute plan.


Maybe this will combat that terrible stereotype Americans have to deal with. You know, that we're a little too good at math and reading. It's off-putting to foreigners.
 
2012-02-09 12:55:14 PM

Karma Chameleon: Good. NCLB is terrible legislation. Rote memorization is not learning. Perhaps a few of these states will actually use the waivers to develop more well-rounded curricula.


Eh. Rote memorization can be learning, or at least an aspect of learning. I learned English by memorizing my 1st and second grade English textbooks.
 
2012-02-09 12:56:11 PM

lennavan: Only 10? All 50 should be exempt from this dumb farking law. When you link funding to performance on a test, that means teachers are going to spend less time teaching they way they should and more time teaching how to do well on that specific test. When you link funding to a minimum required performance, that means teachers are going to spend their time on the stupid kids in class and ignore the smarter or gifted ones.

My kid went to public school kindergarten reading chapter books and came home bragging about the newest letter he learned. "I learned F today!" "So farking what? I taught that to you years ago." They didn't have time for him. He wasn't gifted, he was parented. So he gets held back because apparently other people in the community are too shiatty of parents to read to their kid.


That happened to my kids too: we put them in a "gifted" day care a couple of years ago, where the workers promised to challenge them, keep them involved, etc. Every day I picked them up, their behavior got worse, their attention spans were shot, they went from reading Dr. Seuss books to single letters. Music would be blaring in the afternoons, and when they weren't outside they were napping. What the hell, people? After two weeks I was lucky enough to find another day care with openings, and with teachers that realized I was paying them to do more than just make sure the kids didn't die.

I realize this doesn't have anything to do with NCLB, I just wanted to vent.
 
2012-02-09 01:03:38 PM

Swarley: lennavan: Only 10? All 50 should be exempt from this dumb farking law. When you link funding to performance on a test, that means teachers are going to spend less time teaching they way they should and more time teaching how to do well on that specific test. When you link funding to a minimum required performance, that means teachers are going to spend their time on the stupid kids in class and ignore the smarter or gifted ones.

My kid went to public school kindergarten reading chapter books and came home bragging about the newest letter he learned. "I learned F today!" "So farking what? I taught that to you years ago." They didn't have time for him. He wasn't gifted, he was parented. So he gets held back because apparently other people in the community are too shiatty of parents to read to their kid.

That happened to my kids too: we put them in a "gifted" day care a couple of years ago, where the workers promised to challenge them, keep them involved, etc. Every day I picked them up, their behavior got worse, their attention spans were shot, they went from reading Dr. Seuss books to single letters. Music would be blaring in the afternoons, and when they weren't outside they were napping. What the hell, people? After two weeks I was lucky enough to find another day care with openings, and with teachers that realized I was paying them to do more than just make sure the kids didn't die.

I realize this doesn't have anything to do with NCLB, I just wanted to vent.


It certainly does serve to illustrate the point about parental involvement; think of all the poor kids who had to stay because their parents weren't motivated enough to get them out.
 
2012-02-09 01:03:55 PM

ManateeGag: EnviroDude: RexTalionis: AbbeySomeone: I have never seen any of these articles mention the responsibility of the parents to prepare their kids for schooling or actually participate in their education. Blame the teachers and the schools parents and continue to teach your kids that it's someone other than yourself at fault when you fail.

/pisses me off

To go even further, I've never seen any of these article mention the responsibility of the kids, either. Is it possible that it's not the teachers, but that the kid might just be stupid?

From my conversations with teachers that have taught in public and private schools, they seem to think that the parental involvement in private schools is light years ahead that of public. The conclusion they reach is that the parents of the troubled students in public schools don't give a flying fark if their Johnny can't read.

Dear Christ, the Mayans were right. I have to agree with you here.

/csb time

Was in Best Buy and heard a conversation between a mother and some other female relative and the store employee where they sell the Leapster type stuff. The employee was trying to explain to the woman that games are gear towards learning and involve reading. She didn't want to get it because her kid didn't know how to read and was pretty much waiting for him to go to school to be taught. The child is 5.

/end csb time


I couldn't read until I was 6. Lack of bedtime stories and parental involvement. I can't stop reading, now, thanks to a particularly good English teacher and Garfield comic strips.
 
2012-02-09 01:04:11 PM

Swarley:
I realize this doesn't have anything to do with NCLB, I just wanted to vent.


Oooh, we're just venting now? Ok, I want in: school admins all suck and do not get the blame they deserve for crappy schools; the focus should be on paring those asses down to size and relaxing restraints on the teachers.

/Yeah, not exactly elegant prose, but dammit, it's true.
 
2012-02-09 01:05:06 PM

Karma Chameleon: Rote memorization is not learning.


t1.gstatic.com

Rote memorization is not learning.
Rote memorization is not learning.
Rote memorization is not learning.

OK, we think we got it.
 
2012-02-09 01:07:13 PM

RexTalionis: Karma Chameleon: Good. NCLB is terrible legislation. Rote memorization is not learning. Perhaps a few of these states will actually use the waivers to develop more well-rounded curricula.

Eh. Rote memorization can be learning, or at least an aspect of learning. I learned English by memorizing my 1st and second grade English textbooks.


Yeah, arithmetic, in the beginning, is rote memorization.
 
2012-02-09 01:07:20 PM
Good, it increases the pool of potential Fark headline sourcers.
 
2012-02-09 01:13:59 PM
Thank you, President Obama, from this Florida teacher. Raising standards for math and reading while abandoning science, art, music, physical ed, critical thinking, creative writing, drama, etc. does not improve education. Nor does punishing teachers while letting parents off the hook.
 
2012-02-09 01:16:09 PM
MindStalker:

Having done the private and public school thing, I find private schools go through much more effort to get the parent involved. In the public schools there seems to be an attitude of passing the buck, as in. Private school teacher: lets work together to make sure your child succeeds. Public school teacher: Your child is not perfect Fix it!

I'd guess that private schools have a vested interest in making sure a child does well since the parent (and others) can easily pull them out and move them to another school. Likewise, parents who send their child to private schools usually want to be involved at some level or else they would have settled on the local public school.

So private schools have an advantage in more involved parents and the urge to make sure students do well, it's no wonder they do better.
 
2012-02-09 01:16:30 PM
NCLB cuts federal funding going to underperforming school. School tries to maintain funding by pressing property tax increases. Parent homeowners are outraged that they are having their taxes raised. Parent work with their kids to learn thus getting the school into compliance with NCLB. Property taxes go back to "normal".

I know it does not work this way but it would be neat if it occured once.
 
2012-02-09 01:16:39 PM

Karma Chameleon: Good. NCLB is terrible legislation. Rote memorization is not learning. Perhaps a few of these states will actually use the waivers to develop more well-rounded curricula.


I can't find the link now, as I'm in my mobile, but I was listening to MS NPR a few weeks ago. They were interviewing this teacher who took a high school-level standardized test and failed. They were discussing how children (my generation was one of the first) are not learning the material, but are learning an entirely new skill in order to pass the test.

He said that the questions are very open and often require opinion; that the test-takers are essentially guessing what the test wants you to answer, not actually solving a problem. This was especially true for English/Literature.

Maybe some Farker has a link to said interview? I'll continue to search for it, as I found it very interesting.
 
2012-02-09 01:18:09 PM
Can't we just get the whole damn thing repealed?
 
2012-02-09 01:26:09 PM

meat0918: Yeah, arithmetic, in the beginning, is rote memorization.


ALL Arithmetic is rote memorization. You start out memorizing the order that numbers occur in counting. Then you memorize the functions of the various arithmetic symbols and structure. Then you memorize multiplication tables and how to "carry". Then you memorize the rules for division. Then you memorize the rules of algebra. Then you memorize what page those farking Trig tables are on. From there, you memorize how to use a scientific and/ or graphing calculator. Then you memorize Derivation and Integration. Finally, you memorize where to look it all up.

Without memorization, everything is just making it up as you go. So, EVERYTHING is about memorization. The difference: discipline. Self-discipline, and discipline in the home, which leads to self-image and self-discipline in school. And even that is all about memorizing the rules and a willingness to live by them.
 
2012-02-09 01:26:33 PM
Hmmm... According to this report (new window), Federal dollars were less than 10% of the school spending.

Looking down to table 8, the national average is $10k per kid per year. So for a room of 30 kids the school should be getting about $300k per year. Where the hell is all that money going? How much money do schools spend administrating things to get federal money? How often is there an inversion in administration cost to budget rewards.

It seems like the sort of investigative journalism we should have but no one does.
 
2012-02-09 01:27:55 PM
Subby seems to be under the impression that NCLB works.
 
2012-02-09 01:29:21 PM

Sarah Palin's Conscience: He said that the questions are very open and often require opinion; that the test-takers are essentially guessing what the test wants you to answer, not actually solving a problem. This was especially true for English/Literature.


When I was in HS in Michigan ('94-'98), they had introduced a new series of "proficiency tests". It was Math, Reading, and Writing. I don't remember a science proficiency test, but the others required a lot of writing in general.

I do remember we were told you could not just write down the answer to the math problem, but needed to explain how you got to the answer.

They made it easier and standardized it after the majority of students failed it the first time around.

We spent months, MONTHS, in our English and Math classes prepping for the new tests over the course of 3 years. They gave took chunks of course time and gave us practice tests. We wasted time learning how to pass a test.

From all that I have heard and experienced, when NCLB was signed, it just made existing problems worse.
 
2012-02-09 01:32:20 PM

AbbeySomeone: I have never seen any of these articles mention the responsibility of the parents to prepare their kids for schooling or actually participate in their education. Blame the teachers and the schools parents and continue to teach your kids that it's someone other than yourself at fault when you fail.

/pisses me off


What amazes me is the mental shift. I remember when I was younger that there was no delineation between defying my parents and defying a teacher. There was almost never (I am sure in EXTREME circumstances this might not hold) going to be a time when my parents took my side over a teachers. Adults knew what was going on, and were to be respected and listened to, Should they tell me something inaccurate, my parents might steer me back on course, and probably talked to the teacher or administration on the side, but there was never an indication to me that they were not in league together.

These days it seems like it's all about the kids' opinions, wants, and needs from the parent's perspective. A child is scolded in class? That teach was out of line. A low grade? The teacher is incompetent or unfair. Not a universal rule, but it happens so much more frequently than I ever remembered from my youth (not so long ago). The few parents I can recall like that were the outliers and looked down upon at the time... interesting.
 
2012-02-09 01:32:54 PM
blog.zap2it.com
approves.
 
2012-02-09 01:34:44 PM

lennavan: Only 10? All 50 should be exempt from this dumb farking law. When you link funding to performance on a test, that means teachers are going to spend less time teaching they way they should and more time teaching how to do well on that specific test. When you link funding to a minimum required performance, that means teachers are going to spend their time on the stupid kids in class and ignore the smarter or gifted ones.

My kid went to public school kindergarten reading chapter books and came home bragging about the newest letter he learned. "I learned F today!" "So farking what? I taught that to you years ago." They didn't have time for him. He wasn't gifted, he was parented. So he gets held back because apparently other people in the community are too shiatty of parents to read to their kid.


Wait, he got held back?? For reading too well?? I was with you until then. That doesn't really happen....
 
2012-02-09 01:35:55 PM

HAMMERTOE: meat0918: Yeah, arithmetic, in the beginning, is rote memorization.

ALL Arithmetic is rote memorization. You start out memorizing the order that numbers occur in counting. Then you memorize the functions of the various arithmetic symbols and structure. Then you memorize multiplication tables and how to "carry". Then you memorize the rules for division. Then you memorize the rules of algebra. Then you memorize what page those farking Trig tables are on. From there, you memorize how to use a scientific and/ or graphing calculator. Then you memorize Derivation and Integration. Finally, you memorize where to look it all up.

Without memorization, everything is just making it up as you go. So, EVERYTHING is about memorization. The difference: discipline. Self-discipline, and discipline in the home, which leads to self-image and self-discipline in school. And even that is all about memorizing the rules and a willingness to live by them.


If all you get from math is memorized functions, then you've never learned it correctly, or you don't think about how it impacts your life on a regular basis. Yes, formulas and functions have set patterns that you have to recognize and at times, memorize. Once that is done though, it becomes applied math. How do I use these rules to create/define/explain the world, universe, etc. That is not memorized, that is taking a basic memorized function and making it something new, sometimes creating new math in the process.
 
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