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(Daily Mail)   How many officers does it take to beat the fark out of a man in insulin shock? In Nevada, the answer is 7 or more   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 406
    More: Followup, diabetic comae, CAUGHT ON CAMERA, pocket, police brutality, Las Vegas Sun, insulin shock, OK'd  
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21618 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Feb 2012 at 11:47 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-02-08 08:03:32 PM  

mctwin2kman: /as a diabetic he should not have been driving.
//knows when blood sugar is low and stops and takes something to raise it.
///waits until bs is better to resume driving.


Either you're saying that no diabetic should ever drive (which is pretty stupid), or you're saying that every diabetic always knows when their blood sugar is getting low in plenty of time to find a place to pull the car over and take something to raise it, long before any symptoms such as the ones the police pulled this man over for start to happen (which is also kind of stupid).

Perhaps what you were TRYing to say was something like "Diabetics should check their blood sugar before driving, and should pull over and check their blood sugar again if they have any reason to think that their blood sugar is getting low." That would not be stupid. But it doesn't seem to be what you actually said.
 
2012-02-08 08:04:49 PM  
It's better safe than sorry. You never know if that guy writhing around on the ground is a drunk or a diabetic. It's better to beat him senseless than choose wrong because nothing is worse than a completely harmless drunk lying on the ground.
 
2012-02-08 08:09:26 PM  

BronyMedic:
No, that's how you get the shiat sued out of you by anyone involved for an insane amount. You cannot do this in a litigious society that we live in. It's also how you get to drop any legal and union protection you had as a police officer in the incident, since you've now gone around the chain of command and established policy and procedure of the department.


Actually, studies have shown it's a way to PREVENT litigation. Note who gives the 'don't apologize' advice - LAWYERS. Why would lawyers tell you not to apologize? They know it actually increases the chances you'll be hauled into court and need their services.

There was a SWAT team that busted in the front door of the wrong house, a old lady lived there. The police sheriff came and personally apologized, said that it was a mistake and that procedures would be reviewed(not changed, reviewed). He posted a deputy to watch the door until the carpenter he hired came that morning to fix it.

Result: No lawsuit.

SWAT team does much the same in another county, says it was justified, refuses to pay for anything, etc...

Result: Lawsuit and ~$1M judgement
 
2012-02-08 08:38:35 PM  

The First Four Black Sabbath Albums: It's better safe than sorry. You never know if that guy writhing around on the ground is a drunk or a diabetic. It's better to beat him senseless than choose wrong because nothing is worse than a completely harmless drunk lying on the ground.


"Watch out! He's vomitting right at us!"
 
2012-02-08 08:55:10 PM  

indylaw: The cops can't just assume that everyone they talk to has a gun. You're a farking moron if you think that's OK.

Ever had a cop draw on you as he approached your car to give you a speeding ticket?


When I've been pulled over, I sit still with my hands on the steering wheel. Had I been thrashing around like a fool, I'd fully expect the officer to have his gun drawn. Cops have a farking right to protect themselves.
 
2012-02-08 08:57:31 PM  

GWSuperfan: This is why I have a huge caduceus and "DIABETIC" tattooed on my arm.


Not to be nitpicky,, but the symbol you were looking for was a rod of Asclepius, not a caduceus.
 
2012-02-08 08:59:45 PM  

Coelacanth: brantgoose: Diabetics often sound and act like they are drunk when they go into insulin shock. It is important that the general public and public officials, including the police, be aware of this and other causes of misunderstanding and uninformed reactions.

I used to be an utility porter at the Monte Carlo Casino and Hotel. Late one Saturday night, I'm going around dusting air vents on the casino level. I discover in a side hallway this young man, a guest, who was passed out. He was unconscious, but he was still breathing regularly. So I called for help.

A security guard and some of the other utility porters came to help *rolls eyes*.

The security guard tried to wake the unconscious guest by slapping him. Hard. One of the utility porters left and came back with a coin bucket full of water. He poured the water on the unconscious man's face, but he was only awake for a few moments. It was only then that I got the front desk to call the paramedics.

They took the unconscious guest away and I was labeled a wuss because I was worried about a guest.



One good CSB deserves another.

When I was 17 I worked as a bellman at a medium rate hotel. Someone points out that there is a guy passed out in a corner of the lobby. This guy was sauced - brown bag in in hand and reeking. Filthy clothes, unkempt, hadn't showered in god knows how long.

Desk clerk calls cops. Cops show, and immediately recognize the guy calling him by his first name as they roused him - but instead of hauling him off to the drunk tank, they brought him to the front desk, and told the clerk to give him a room. They then dug in the staggering wino's pockets, and pulled out the cash to pay for it.

The clerk objected strenuously at first - let's face it, they guy was filthy - but the cops weren't about to take no for an answer.

I showed them to the room, where they proceeded to dig through his pockets. Eventually they pulled out a bank passbook (this was in the 70's) and opened it. "I see you still have over $400,000 in this account, Willy (or whatever his name was). They then put the stuff back in his pockets, put him on the bed, and we left.

That was it.

I didn't see the cops steal of confiscate anything (other than the bottle), which was cool, but it always made me wonder: $400 k was a LOT of money back then - and that was only one account. Why is a guy with those kind of assets living on the street as a farking wino?

/I got NO TIP
 
2012-02-08 09:07:58 PM  

9beers: indylaw: The cops can't just assume that everyone they talk to has a gun. You're a farking moron if you think that's OK.

Ever had a cop draw on you as he approached your car to give you a speeding ticket?

When I've been pulled over, I sit still with my hands on the steering wheel. Had I been thrashing around like a fool, I'd fully expect the officer to have his gun drawn. Cops have a farking right to protect themselves.


Because a guy swerving a little means that he is ready and waiting to blow you away or drag you into the car and tear you apart as soon as you reach the window.
 
2012-02-08 09:15:25 PM  

9beers: Cops have a farking right to protect themselves.


Any person, pig or not, that approaches a car with a gun aimed at its driver before ascertaining any potential threat, is begging for a world of trouble.
 
2012-02-08 09:21:22 PM  

Amos Quito: One good CSB deserves another.

When I was 17 I worked as a bellman at a medium rate hotel. Someone points out that there is a guy passed out in a corner of the lobby. This guy was sauced - brown bag in in hand and reeking. Filthy clothes, unkempt, hadn't showered in god knows how long.

Desk clerk calls cops. Cops show, and immediately recognize the guy calling him by his first name as they roused him - but instead of hauling him off to the drunk tank, they brought him to the front desk, and told the clerk to give him a room. They then dug in the staggering wino's pockets, and pulled out the cash to pay for it.

The clerk objected strenuously at first - let's face it, they guy was filthy - but the cops weren't about to take no for an answer.

I showed them to the room, where they proceeded to dig through his pockets. Eventually they pulled out a bank passbook (this was in the 70's) and opened it. "I see you still have over $400,000 in this account, Willy (or whatever his name was). They then put the stuff back in his pockets, put him on the bed, and we left.

That was it.

I didn't see the cops steal of confiscate anything (other than the bottle), which was cool, but it always made me wonder: $400 k was a LOT of money back then - and that was only one account. Why is a guy with those kind of assets living on the street as a farking wino?

/I got NO TIP



It's not that strange, but it's a cool story nonetheless.

After Steve Wynn lost the Bellagio and we were taken over by MGM Grand, we folk in EVS were told to be on the lookout for a little old man in a dirty and frayed sweatsuit running around on the property. We were to treat him as the most important person ever. That little old man was none other than Kirk Kerkorian.
 
2012-02-08 09:23:12 PM  
Here's the video. Link (new window)

The only thing I see wrong with any of the officers actions was the one who was kicking the guy.
 
2012-02-08 09:31:10 PM  

9beers: Cops have a farking right to protect themselves.


I missed he part in the story where the cops were threatened or attacked in any way.

They beat the shiat out of an incapacitated man.

He had a right to protect himself with lethal force.
 
2012-02-08 09:31:31 PM  

9beers: Here's the video. Link (new window)

The only thing I see wrong with any of the officers actions was the one who was kicking the guy.


I think I'll name my new policy of violently attacking anyone who does anything suspicious the "9beers defense".

/"She looked like she was trying to savage me with her random spasms! I did it for my safety!"
//"The footprint on her head? Well, MAYBE it was a LITTLE too much, but she was trying to savage me!"
 
2012-02-08 09:41:05 PM  

ArrogantGod: I missed he part in the story where the cops were threatened or attacked in any way.


A cop doesn't have to wait until they're attacked to take precautions to protect themselves, why is it so hard for you to grasp that?
 
2012-02-08 09:53:27 PM  

BronyMedic: bonediddly123: /also heard that these cops were trying out new hypo-steel toed boots. each shoe has a little insulin syringe on the tip, all you have to do to activate is kick as hard as you can repeatedly

Insulin Shock = Hypoglycemia, or low blood sugar.
Diabetic Coma = DKA or HHNK, Hyperglycemia

For the later, you really don't want to give them insulin. Although it's hard as hell to kill someone with insulin.


Hmm nope. 20 units can be enough to do it, or 1/5 of a mL, or 1/25 of a teaspoon. Your standard little vial of rapid acting has 1,000 units.

Although I try to avoid assumptions about diabetics, undiagnosed Type 2's can be walking and taking with blood sugars around 2000 in extreme cases, however when your sugar falls below 30, your brain is dying and a hypoglycemic diabetic coma isn't far behind.
 
2012-02-08 09:58:55 PM  

9beers: ArrogantGod: I missed he part in the story where the cops were threatened or attacked in any way.

A cop doesn't have to wait until they're attacked to take precautions to protect themselves, why is it so hard for you to grasp that?


I don't think it's the readers here that are the ones having trouble grasping things, tough guy. Good luck to you.
 
2012-02-08 10:01:46 PM  

9beers: ArrogantGod: I missed he part in the story where the cops were threatened or attacked in any way.

A cop doesn't have to wait until they're attacked to take precautions to protect themselves, why is it so hard for you to grasp that?


Its in how liberal you define "take precautions to protect themselves". Cops already are armed with several weapons.

I wouldnt consider physical violence a precaution nor protecting themself.
 
2012-02-08 10:06:03 PM  

ArrogantGod: 9beers: Cops have a farking right to protect themselves.

I missed he part in the story where the cops were threatened or attacked in any way.

They beat the shiat out of an incapacitated man.

He had a right to protect himself with lethal force.


One time while working at a gas station I was nearly ran over by someone suffering from hypoglycemia. After narrowly avoiding the drivers car, they proceeded to get out and physically threaten me for "jumping out in front of them." I thought they were having a really bad trip on PCP or something. I don't know what happened before the tape with the officers and the guy who kicked him in the head was way out of line but I don't blame them for reacting to the 9 out of 10 signs that he was dangerous.
 
2012-02-08 10:09:57 PM  

Frederick: Its in how liberal you define "take precautions to protect themselves". Cops already are armed with several weapons.


What good is having a weapon on your belt if the guy spins around pointing a gun at you? You guys have to be trolling, you can't possibly be this ignorant.
 
2012-02-08 10:16:39 PM  

9beers: Frederick: Its in how liberal you define "take precautions to protect themselves". Cops already are armed with several weapons.

What good is having a weapon on your belt if the guy spins around pointing a gun at you? You guys have to be trolling, you can't possibly be this ignorant.


What good is having a weapon on your belt if you don't pull the trigger for that matter?

/slippery slopes...this is the gulley they lead to
 
2012-02-08 10:17:26 PM  
900RR: Just how much police cock do you garble? More than the one you admitted to, methinks. It's funny how EMTs empathize with cops so much. I dated one EMT chick and she was batshiat insane. She had a thing for cops too. Dated two: the first one she was engaged to until he put a gun to her head because he didn't want to get up to go somewhere early on his day off with her. The second she dated for years. He treated her like shiat perpetually too. By the time she got to me and I treated her nice, she wanted nothing to do with it.

To be honest with YOU, I LOL people who support unemployable farktards you would be bagging groceries if it wasn't for sweet law enforcement gigs... people who push others around not because it is necessary, but because they can.


Do you have a point in all that rambling, or is it just a pointless troll with ad hominem thrown in? Please, debate my point, rather than going off on annoying and pointless tangents: The Miltiarization of the police has gone on for far longer than people have biatched about it. And the arguement has too. The same arguement couldk have been made in the late 1920s when the NYPD purchased BARs and Thompson SMGs.

indylaw: 74% accuracy? Holy shiat! It's fair to be arrested, have your license administratively suspended, and lose your rights on the strength of a test which is approximately right 3/4 of the time under lab conditions, administered by someone with a vested interest in making arrests, a high-school education and an afternoon worth of training.

Except that it's not the only test used to determine intoxication, and I'm sure you know this. Don't let that stop you from your righteous indignation, though.
 
2012-02-08 10:21:05 PM  
erewhon: BronyMedic: bonediddly123: /also heard that these cops were trying out new hypo-steel toed boots. each shoe has a little insulin syringe on the tip, all you have to do to activate is kick as hard as you can repeatedly

Insulin Shock = Hypoglycemia, or low blood sugar.
Diabetic Coma = DKA or HHNK, Hyperglycemia

For the later, you really don't want to give them insulin. Although it's hard as hell to kill someone with insulin.

Wife-like typing detected.


I made a typo. Therefor, I'm pretending, not really a Paramedic, right?

I'd be happy to provide you with my NREMT or Tennessee EMT-P/EMD number. You won't get mississippi, though, since they still use socials.

\no. I won't walk around showing my mississippi paramedic as ID, Rural/Metro. I don't want everyone knowing my SSID.
 
2012-02-08 10:22:01 PM  
As a diabetic, this pisses me right off, I must say.
 
2012-02-08 10:23:02 PM  

radarlove: What good is having a weapon on your belt if you don't pull the trigger for that matter?


And with that little bit of idiocy, I'm bailing out on the cop hating thread. Have fun flinging shiat all over the place.

Kill all pigs!!!
 
2012-02-08 10:34:51 PM  

9beers:

Kill all pigs!!!


If you insist, but I'm giving you full credit for the idea.
 
2012-02-08 10:41:52 PM  

9beers: radarlove: What good is having a weapon on your belt if you don't pull the trigger for that matter?

And with that little bit of idiocy, I'm bailing out on the cop hating thread. Have fun flinging shiat all over the place.

Kill all pigs!!!


You're the one saying police are completely justified in treating everyone they meet like deadly killers just waiting to murder them and eat their flesh, and curb-stomping unarmed drunks and seizuring diabetics should be the normal procedure of law enforcement.
 
2012-02-08 10:47:29 PM  

Amos Quito: $400 k was a LOT of money back then - and that was only one account. Why is a guy with those kind of assets living on the street as a farking wino?


He was a drunk. Don't you get how being a drunk works? Money doesn't protect you.
 
2012-02-08 10:49:35 PM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: 9beers: radarlove: What good is having a weapon on your belt if you don't pull the trigger for that matter?

And with that little bit of idiocy, I'm bailing out on the cop hating thread. Have fun flinging shiat all over the place.

Kill all pigs!!!

You're the one saying police are completely justified in treating everyone they meet like deadly killers just waiting to murder them and eat their flesh, and curb-stomping unarmed drunks and seizuring diabetics should be the normal procedure of law enforcement.


In fairness, he did say earlier that he found the curb stomping a bit gauche.

But the rest of it, including the conspiracy to destroy evidence and protect crooked officers, sits pretty well with him.
 
2012-02-08 11:03:07 PM  

radarlove: Keizer_Ghidorah: 9beers: radarlove: What good is having a weapon on your belt if you don't pull the trigger for that matter?

And with that little bit of idiocy, I'm bailing out on the cop hating thread. Have fun flinging shiat all over the place.

Kill all pigs!!!

You're the one saying police are completely justified in treating everyone they meet like deadly killers just waiting to murder them and eat their flesh, and curb-stomping unarmed drunks and seizuring diabetics should be the normal procedure of law enforcement.

In fairness, he did say earlier that he found the curb stomping a bit gauche.

But the rest of it, including the conspiracy to destroy evidence and protect crooked officers, sits pretty well with him.


And he always completely ignored it when it was pointed out or said that it was the proper thing for them to do. Apparently he's completely fine with police being above the law and being as brutal and ass-covering as they want as long as it's not too obvious.

And the kicker? Those who are against police being corrupt are, according to 9beers, HATERS, CRIMINALS, AND COP-MURDER ORGYISTS!! WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THAT THE POLICE ARE JUSTIFIED IN BEING BRUTAL AND LYING AND DESTROYING EVIDENCE!? THEY ARE THE LAW! THE LAAAAAW!!
 
2012-02-08 11:03:58 PM  

BronyMedic: Except that it's not the only test used to determine intoxication, and I'm sure you know this. Don't let that stop you from your righteous indignation, though.


The cops will haul you in if you fail the HGN test. They have the ability and the option of having you stand on one leg or walk there-and-back, or have you blow into a "breathalyzer," but HGN "results" are admissible in court, and if you've got a cop saying that his "expertise" let him know that you were drunk, that sticks with the jury.

It's an inaccurate test with imprecise judging criteria and subjective flaws, packaged up all shiny and science-like for a jury of high school dropouts. Yeah, I have a problem with that.
 
2012-02-08 11:08:08 PM  

9beers: Frederick: Its in how liberal you define "take precautions to protect themselves". Cops already are armed with several weapons.

What good is having a weapon on your belt if the guy spins around pointing a gun at you? You guys have to be trolling, you can't possibly be this ignorant.


So what is your real world solution?
 
2012-02-08 11:58:24 PM  
Whoa, this thread went into a scary direction! It started with "some/all cops are pigs" and then went to "kill all cops" and then "overthrow the social order"/Oklahoma bombing.

/usually not so scared of Farkers
//kinda am right now
 
2012-02-09 12:03:06 AM  
should have been a curb stomp... get your hands off me, you damn dirty diabetic...
oh my god! he's coming right at us!!! BANG!!!!
 
2012-02-09 02:17:01 AM  

IrateShadow: Guys, you have this completely wrong. It's totally cool, these kind of cops are very rare and should not be used to judge police as a whole.


Is it true that you guys don't wish to be called colored anymore?
 
2012-02-09 02:18:26 AM  

900RR: What do they train those freaking lunatics? Anything? You pull your gun on everyone that you pull over for weaving a bit on the road?!? That shiat makes my blood boil.

/Thugs with badges.
//The people need to riot over this shiat.


Yes, if you want to go home you treat every stop as a felony stop. The finger shouldn't be in the trigger guard but there's no real reason not to. I'm far from a police appologist (I hate most cops and refer to them as pigs because frankly the job attracts better than 50% people who shouldn't be given the power) but as my father-in-laws second partner found out the hard way, you never know what minor traffic stop is going to turn into a fatal shootout (only caught the guy due to dashcam footage).
 
2012-02-09 02:25:10 AM  

thetubameister: But if they want respect, they have a HUGE PR problem to solve first. As to how, I think redesign/retraining/restaffing the ranks would be a damn good start.


Thing is, LEOs don't want to be respected by civilians any more than ranchers want respect from cattle.

They want to be feared and obeyed.

Got to execute and rape a few people every now and then to be properly feared.
 
2012-02-09 02:41:29 AM  

Firethorn: There was a SWAT team that busted in the front door of the wrong house, a old lady lived there. The police sheriff came and personally apologized, said that it was a mistake and that procedures would be reviewed(not changed, reviewed). He posted a deputy to watch the door until the carpenter he hired came that morning to fix it.

Result: No lawsuit.

SWAT team does much the same in another county, says it was justified, refuses to pay for anything, etc...

Result: Lawsuit and ~$1M judgement


Both of these beat the fark out of the most common response, which is to put the old lady on her knees, shoot her, and plant a dime bag.
 
2012-02-09 02:45:53 AM  

robodog: Yes, if you want to go home you treat every stop as a felony stop. The finger shouldn't be in the trigger guard but there's no real reason not to. I'm far from a police appologist (I hate most cops and refer to them as pigs because frankly the job attracts better than 50% people who shouldn't be given the power) but as my father-in-laws second partner found out the hard way, you never know what minor traffic stop is going to turn into a fatal shootout (only caught the guy due to dashcam footage).


Please.

FBI's own stats show it's actually safer to be a Police Officer than the average civilian. That's before you adjust for age (18-50), sex (male), drug use (HGH or steroids), etc.
 
2012-02-09 03:34:54 AM  

9beers: 2wolves: You and your filthy Liberal facts.

Holy shiat, I'm surrounded by retards. It's cool, I'll write it off as being blinded by your hatred of the police.


I was trolling. It was uncalled for. I apologize.
 
2012-02-09 03:37:34 AM  

I should be in the kitchen: Henderson PD involved? I'm surprised they didn't just shoot him.


Me too. I live in The Peoples Republic of Henderson. Occasionally,I escape to the West, i.e., Las Vegas, and chat with the folks there. I've had several tell me they try to avoid Henderson because of the cops' storm-trooper mentality.
 
2012-02-09 03:47:46 AM  
indylaw: The cops will haul you in if you fail the HGN test. They have the ability and the option of having you stand on one leg or walk there-and-back, or have you blow into a "breathalyzer," but HGN "results" are admissible in court, and if you've got a cop saying that his "expertise" let him know that you were drunk, that sticks with the jury.

That's bullshiat and you know it. Physical symptoms of intoxication are either backed up with A) Brethalyzer test or B) Alcohol Blood Draws.

indylaw: It's an inaccurate test with imprecise judging criteria and subjective flaws

I posted scientific studies, published in high impact journals such as American Journal of Toxicology, which disproved your statement here, and noted it was a legitimate clinical test to be used in conjunction with other physical symptoms including BAL draws. Judging by your fark handle, I'm going to guess you're a lawyer. Considering that evidence that I posted would pass a Daubert Standard test, you're pretty much farked in terms of arguing it's an unscientific test. One of the studies I linked had 43 false negatives in a pool of over 1000 test participants. That's less false negatives than a rapid strep test. As far as the 73% part for Horizontal Nystagmus, Kernig's Sign only occurs in about 5% of people with Meningitis, but it's pretty diagnostic.

fnordfocus: Please.

FBI's own stats show it's actually safer to be a Police Officer than the average civilian. That's before you adjust for age (18-50), sex (male), drug use (HGH or steroids), etc.


This is why Police are so paranoid about traffic stops. http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=/watch%3Fv%3DDLSNLeoab8c

Also, your statement is incorrect.

National Census of Fatal Injuries in Occupation, 2010, Bureau of Labor and Statistics
www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cfoi.pdf

Pay attention to chart 3 on page 5. By volume of officers killed, work in Law Enforcement was the third most deadly job in the United States, only beat out by farming and long-haul truck driving.
 
2012-02-09 04:32:16 AM  

BronyMedic: Pay attention to chart 3 on page 5. By volume of officers killed, work in Law Enforcement was the third most deadly job in the United States, only beat out by farming and long-haul truck driving.


You mean like how many cubic feet the bodies take up vs injury rate per 100,000? You should be ashamed to make such and argument.

This Fatal occupational injuries, total hours worked, and rates of fatal occupational injuries by selected
worker characteristics, occupations, and industries, civilian workers, 2010
(new window) Shows

Being a Police Officer is as dangerous as
Recyclable material merchant wholesalers
Grounds maintenance workers

Much less dangerous than farming, Lumber jacking, and fish killing.
 
2012-02-09 06:25:32 AM  
gibbon1: You mean like how many cubic feet the bodies take up vs injury rate per 100,000? You should be ashamed to make such and argument.

Cute. Do you know how I know you didn't read the linked report?

gibbon1: Being a Police Officer is as dangerous as
Recyclable material merchant wholesalers
Grounds maintenance workers

Much less dangerous than farming, Lumber jacking, and fish killing.


From the linked report:

Fatal work injuries involving farming, fishing, and forestry workers increased by 9 percent in 2010.
Fatalities involving agricultural workers, including farmworkers and laborers, rose from 127 in
2009 to 156 in 2010. Fatalities among logging workers also increased in 2010 from 36 in 2009 to 59
in 2010, but fatalities among fishers and related fishing workers declined.

The number of fatal work injuries among protective service occupations increased by 6 percent in
2010 after two years of declines. The increase was led by fatalities among police officers which rose
40 percent from 96 to 134 in 2010. Of the 134 fatal work injuries among police officers, 57
involved highway incidents and 48 involved homicides.
Most other subgroups in the protective
service occupational group declined in 2010.
 
2012-02-09 06:43:35 AM  
He is lucky to be alive. Another story from yesterday about a man the cops beat, tazed and batoned to death in 2009. No, not about the homeless guy, this one is a new one:

http://masonbuzz.com/2012/02/07/mason-sued-in-2009-taser-death/
 
2012-02-09 07:10:56 AM  

BronyMedic: That's bullshiat and you know it. Physical symptoms of intoxication are either backed up with A) Brethalyzer test or B) Alcohol Blood Draws.


Then why even bother with Officer Piggerson getting up on the stand and saying that he is an expert on watching dudes' eyes and that the twitch in the defendant's eye is a sign that he was drunk (in almost but not quite 3 out of 4 cases)? Just submit the BAC results that show that the driver was between .23 and .24. It's accurate, reasonably precise, and doesn't depend on the "opinion" and "expertise" of some dude that wants to make an arrest to meet a quota.

As for Daubert, lots of stupid bullshiat gets through Daubert. You can find scientists who believe all sorts of crazy things that aren't generally accepted. Fortunately in Florida the Frye test still governs.
 
2012-02-09 07:11:22 AM  

BronyMedic: I made a typo. Therefor, I'm pretending, not really a Paramedic, right?


What typo? You said that you wouldn't give insulin to someone in DKA or HHNK. The usual treatment is an insulin drip and fluids, possibly with some potassium, depending on the serum K level when you start the insulin.

Unless you meant "former" instead of "latter".
 
2012-02-09 07:16:46 AM  
erewhon: Unless you meant "former" instead of "latter".

Yes, that's what I ment. I actually corrected it about 20 posts later when someone pointed out.

erewhon: The usual treatment is an insulin drip and fluids, possibly with some potassium, depending on the serum K level when you start the insulin.

Our protocols require us to titrate insuilin at 0.1u/kg/hour starting with a target of lowering blood glucose no more than 100mg/hour. In pediatrics, if you bolus them with IV insulin and treat them like an adult, you'll kill them due to the osmotic shift and cerebral edema that will result from the crashing blood glucose.

I've seen it happen in two kids we've gone to pick up from the North Mississippi area.. It's not pretty.
 
2012-02-09 07:23:50 AM  
indylaw: Then why even bother with Officer Piggerson getting up on the stand and saying that he is an expert on watching dudes' eyes and that the twitch in the defendant's eye is a sign that he was drunk (in almost but not quite 3 out of 4 cases)?

Because it's an indicator used to determine further testing is necessary. Again, it is not used by itsself to convict someone of DUI, like you claimed several posts above this. In Shelby County, for example, it's an indicator used along with gait disturbance and mental exams which gets a "Whiskey" officer to respond to the scene, who has the ability to perform field biomarkers and blow tests. They are the ones that determine intoxication and transport the individual to jail. Not just based on the H/VGN tests.

And it's an indicator, that according to scientific evidence with disagrees with your anecdote, has an above-average level of specificity and sensitivity. You can argue you dislike it all you want, however, you cannot argue with scientific evidence that says it's a valid test when used with other physical exam findings and the use of biomarker lab draws or oral breathylizer exams.

indylaw:
Just submit the BAC results that show that the driver was between .23 and .24. It's accurate, reasonably precise, and doesn't depend on the "opinion" and "expertise" of some dude that wants to make an arrest to meet a quota.

You do realize that's what they do, right? This is why I hate arguing with lawyers: Circular Logic.

indylaw: As for Daubert, lots of stupid bullshiat gets through Daubert. You can find scientists who believe all sorts of crazy things that aren't generally accepted. Fortunately in Florida the Frye test still governs.

Looking for H/VGN is part of the cranial nerve examination utilized by any level of healthcare professional above that of a basic first aid provider when performing a secondary assessment. It's an indicator of metabolic disturbance, cranial nerve dysfunction, or other form of altered mentation - such as a seizure. (nystagmus and deviation is a symptom of seizure, expecially parital/complex and pediatric/infantile grand mal). In addition, it meets the Frye test as well by not being an "experimental, not well accepted" procedure.
 
2012-02-09 07:33:28 AM  

BronyMedic: indylaw: Then why even bother with Officer Piggerson getting up on the stand and saying that he is an expert on watching dudes' eyes and that the twitch in the defendant's eye is a sign that he was drunk (in almost but not quite 3 out of 4 cases)?

Because it's an indicator used to determine further testing is necessary. Again, it is not used by itsself to convict someone of DUI, like you claimed several posts above this. In Shelby County, for example, it's an indicator used along with gait disturbance and mental exams which gets a "Whiskey" officer to respond to the scene, who has the ability to perform field biomarkers and blow tests. They are the ones that determine intoxication and transport the individual to jail. Not just based on the H/VGN tests.

And it's an indicator, that according to scientific evidence with disagrees with your anecdote, has an above-average level of specificity and sensitivity. You can argue you dislike it all you want, however, you cannot argue with scientific evidence that says it's a valid test when used with other physical exam findings and the use of biomarker lab draws or oral breathylizer exams.

indylaw: Just submit the BAC results that show that the driver was between .23 and .24. It's accurate, reasonably precise, and doesn't depend on the "opinion" and "expertise" of some dude that wants to make an arrest to meet a quota.

You do realize that's what they do, right? This is why I hate arguing with lawyers: Circular Logic.

indylaw: As for Daubert, lots of stupid bullshiat gets through Daubert. You can find scientists who believe all sorts of crazy things that aren't generally accepted. Fortunately in Florida the Frye test still governs.

Looking for H/VGN is part of the cranial nerve examination utilized by any level of healthcare professional above that of a basic first aid provider when performing a secondary assessment. It's an indicator of metabolic disturbance, cranial nerve dysfunction, or other form of altered mentation ...


And if HGN tests were used merely to establish probable cause, I'd be OK with that. 74% is accurate enough to warrant further investigation.

But prosecutors want to be able to use HGN observations as scientific opinion testimony at trial in order to secure a conviction for DUI. Maybe the defense has demonstrated that the breathalyzer was not properly tested or calibrated and got the results thrown out. The prosecutor then wants to get a police officer on the stand to say "Oh, trust me, he was wasted, because I saw his eyeballs twitch while he was following a pen in my hand." It's just not reliable enough, and having a police officer give self-serving testimony like that on a topic in which he is marginally trained is prejudicial, at least IMO. That's what I'm getting at.
 
2012-02-09 07:47:02 AM  
I've never understood the point of field sobriety tests. The two or three times they've set up roadblocks near the Florabama or whatnot and tested everyone leaving, I've always asked to cut to the chase and do the breathlyzer right off the bat.

They always seemed so...disappointed by the breathlyzer test results.

"Ok.... .01.... .01.... .02 it's .02... .02.... .02.... crap. That's it. "
 
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