sprawl15: Magorn: Case in point: Sam's Club and Costco are direct competitors.

Costco does a lot of things a lot better than Sam's Club, it's like comparing the wages/benefits package of Apple and Microsoft to explain why the iPod did so much better than the Zune. Here in Texas, HEB is pushing Wal-Mart out of the area simply by providing a better service despite their prices being a bit higher and not having access to Wal-Mart's legendary supply chain.

/HEB Central Market is farking awesome

Lived in texas for a year.

While I hated it (Corpus is crap), the HEB is awesome. If you went in to one of the HEB+ after 9pm, all the fresh cuts of steak are half off FYI.

/ribeye for $5/lb
//my dog got steak

sprawl15: mekki: Prosperity for all except for the people who are very, very, very, I have more money than God, filthy rich. They are going to have to take in less to cover minimum wage increases.

Eh, minimum wage is kind of a double edged sword. It improves workers' lives, but either cuts down on the number of jobs or increases costs elsewhere. It'd be nice to have a burger flipper making 60 grand a year, but then a Whopper would cost $100.

High paying menial jobs basically built this country. Unions brought prosperity because paying a guy 60K a year to screw in a bolt grew consumer demand. With he loss of those jobs, we see a economy contacting, and we need something to replace them. paying a burger flipper 60K is our only option. All of these jobs are service jobs.

EWreckedSean: How does it help the lowest earners when their job gets cut because the small business they work for was already struggling with salaries and the government made them raise rates every year?

I see you're wandered off into your fantasy world where all small business owners pay their employees minimum wage and are perennially at the brink of failure where an additional $80/week in costs will put them under. Let me know when you come back and we can have a discussion about reality.

duffman13: While I hated it (Corpus is crap), the HEB is awesome. If you went in to one of the HEB+ after 9pm, all the fresh cuts of steak are half off FYI.

I did not know that. I normally go to a regular one because it's about 2 minutes closer, I may have to do a midnight run tonight and breakfast like a champ tomorrow.

Magorn: sprawl15: Magorn: Case in point: Sam's Club and Costco are direct competitors.

Costco does a lot of things a lot better than Sam's Club, it's like comparing the wages/benefits package of Apple and Microsoft to explain why the iPod did so much better than the Zune. Here in Texas, HEB is pushing Wal-Mart out of the area simply by providing a better service despite their prices being a bit higher and not having access to Wal-Mart's legendary supply chain.

/HEB Central Market is farking awesome

And how much of that, do you suppose can be attributed to the fact that by paying workers better you get more dedicated, motivated work out of them which thereby increases customer satisfaction with your store and makes people want to shop there again?

Not just that, but by paying a decent wage you create customers. Another nice thing about HEB, and why they can be so competitive with Walmart in Texas, is that they rely heavily on in-state producers. Because of those contracts with local and state producers, Walmart can't do its typical "stop doing business with our competitor or we'll stop doing business with you" bully routine to their suppliers. And that keeps the suppliers happy, too, because HEB, unlike Walmart, doesn't constantly force its suppliers to bid against each other for contracts, driving down their costs.

So, by being willing to take a smaller chunk as corporate profit, they can give ok deals to consumers, for better products, in nicer stores, run by happier, healthier, better trained, better paid staff, using happier, local suppliers, much of which also helps the state and local economy, all of which increase their sales. And that's not even mentioning HEB's management training program, which recruits promising clerks and checkers, gives them a high-quality management education for practically nothing, then gives them their pick of comfortably middle class management positions through the state to choose from. Unlike Walmart, HEB can be a genuine engine of social mobility, and for many, a great way to get a cheap post-grad education.

The federally mandated minimum wage is the only reason why you don't see some companies paying 2 dollars an hour, and the owners would still complain about how much they pay to their employees

That's idiotic.

The jobs that are going to be outsourced to China mostly have by this point.

Raising the wages for a bag boy or waiter isn't going to cause those businesses to outsource the work.

Ideally I would favor a system that reduces the standard work week by some fixed amount (say an hour a year for the next decade or so) and raises minimum wage by inflation and the amount necessary to cover that loss of an hour. So min. wage workers in 2012 or 2022 end up earning the same amount after accounting for inflation but the guy in 2022 is only working 30 hours per week.

We got the 40 hour work week in response to increased automation. Well we've continued to increase productivity but kept the week the same.

/apparently this was tacitly agreed to in the upper echelons during the 50s to maintain high enough economic output to allow the military to siphon off enough excess to combat the soviets. That is if wikipedia is to believed.

Wendy's Chili: He lived in a f*cking mansion with servants! (new window)

Yeah, that's not how most Mormons do their Mission. Mitt Romney clearly got that gig because he came from a wealthy family.

Wendy's Chili: Yeah, I'm sure talking about metaphysics during that two-year vacation in Europe was essential to building the character that allowed him to raid the pensions of Dade International (new window).

You don't gotta be a dick about it. Clearly Mitt Romney didn't have a character-building mission, but that's not the norm.

Philip Francis Queeg: So then what happens if you lose your job after you have kids and have to take one of those low paying jobs to get by?

The exact same thing that happens right now when someone doesn't have enough money to make ends meet even if they have a job - food stamp benefits or public assistance.

sprawl15: duffman13: While I hated it (Corpus is crap), the HEB is awesome. If you went in to one of the HEB+ after 9pm, all the fresh cuts of steak are half off FYI.

I did not know that. I normally go to a regular one because it's about 2 minutes closer, I may have to do a midnight run tonight and breakfast like a champ tomorrow.

Well FWIW, that was down in Corpus and about 3.5 years ago. It may have changed by now, so don't be pissed at me if it has.

The Why Not Guy: Philip Francis Queeg: So then what happens if you lose your job after you have kids and have to take one of those low paying jobs to get by?

The exact same thing that happens right now when someone doesn't have enough money to make ends meet even if they have a job - food stamp benefits or public assistance.

So we should continue to have the government subsidize low wages to increase corporate profits. Got it.

Heron: So, by being willing to take a smaller chunk as corporate profit, they can give ok deals to consumers, for better products, in nicer stores, run by happier, healthier, better trained, better paid staff, using happier, local suppliers, much of which also helps the state and local economy, all of which increase their sales. And that's not even mentioning HEB's management training program, which recruits promising clerks and checkers, gives them a high-quality management education for practically nothing, then gives them their pick of comfortably middle class management positions through the state to choose from. Unlike Walmart, HEB can be a genuine engine of social mobility, and for many, a great way to get a cheap post-grad education.

And this is really the important point here. It's not just a single dial of 'employee wages', or even general employee benefits. Corporate culture has shifted to be a merciless profit driven machine that is focused on stockholders' profits and executives making as much money as they can before leaving (either voluntarily or involuntarily) with a fantastic severance package.

Dialing up wages isn't a bad thing, it's just largely pissing into the wind as long as corporate culture will use the extra slack to tug employees a bit farther.

duffman13: sprawl15: duffman13: While I hated it (Corpus is crap), the HEB is awesome. If you went in to one of the HEB+ after 9pm, all the fresh cuts of steak are half off FYI.

I did not know that. I normally go to a regular one because it's about 2 minutes closer, I may have to do a midnight run tonight and breakfast like a champ tomorrow.

Well FWIW, that was down in Corpus and about 3.5 years ago. It may have changed by now, so don't be pissed at me if it has.

I'll just invoice you for the 4 minutes extra travel time.

The Why Not Guy: The exact same thing that happens right now when someone doesn't have enough money to make ends meet even if they have a job - food stamp benefits or public assistance.

Wouldn't it be better if those jobs paid enough that the workers didn't have to go to the government to make up the difference?

Monkeyhouse Zendo: The Why Not Guy: The exact same thing that happens right now when someone doesn't have enough money to make ends meet even if they have a job - food stamp benefits or public assistance.

Wouldn't it be better if those jobs paid enough that the workers didn't have to go to the government to make up the difference?

And still live comfortably enough to have children and hobbies?

Not everyone is cut out for "higher jobs." I know it's hard to believe, but some people actually enjoy doing those jobs.

Why should they have to scrape by and essentially miss out on life?

Monkeyhouse Zendo: The Why Not Guy: The exact same thing that happens right now when someone doesn't have enough money to make ends meet even if they have a job - food stamp benefits or public assistance.

Wouldn't it be better if those jobs paid enough that the workers didn't have to go to the government to make up the difference?

That would mean less SOCIALIZING the cost and less profits for that quarter.

Fart_Machine: Anyone surprised by this? These groups would like to see our labor laws returned to Third World country status.

No. It will be the Real American^tm status - exceptional .



/because that's what america is
//you're a elite commie lib terrorist traitor if you think otherwise

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Wouldn't it be better if those jobs paid enough that the workers didn't have to go to the government to make up the difference?

That depends. I think the living wage should provide enough for a person to be self-sufficient. Now, what if they have a kid? Should the living wage cover the expense of raising a kid? I'm not sure. What if they have three kids or five kids?

PFQ: So we should continue to have the government subsidize low wages to increase corporate profits. Got it.

Like it or not the safety net is here to stay, and than God for that. We'd be in a better position than we are now (we being taxpayers) if the living wage at least covered the individual's basic expenses. Perfect? No. Acceptable? Yes, to me. You seem angry that I'm supporting a system that would have workers and taxpayers better off than they are right now, so no, I don't think you've "got it" at all.

This is why Mitt is having so much trouble with the primaries. Sure, he doesn't care about the poor, but he doesn't actively detest them.

I_Am_Weasel: I know someone who's been trying to give jobs away. No experience is necessary. Pays about $50,000! All you have to do is take some sort of training course. Yet everyone he's offered the job to has said no.

i'll take it. What's the job?

sprawl15: mekki: Prosperity for all except for the people who are very, very, very, I have more money than God, filthy rich. They are going to have to take in less to cover minimum wage increases.

Eh, minimum wage is kind of a double edged sword. It improves workers' lives, but either cuts down on the number of jobs or increases costs elsewhere. It'd be nice to have a burger flipper making 60 grand a year, but then a Whopper would cost $100.

Most folks could stand to eat a few less Whoppers in the US, so I'm okay with this.

/or, corporations could stop expecting accelerated profit growth and instead just be happy with any profit

MugzyBrown: Because they chose to go down that path?

No one chooses to struggle and scrape by.

The Why Not Guy: PFQ: So we should continue to have the government subsidize low wages to increase corporate profits. Got it.

Like it or not the safety net is here to stay, and than God for that. We'd be in a better position than we are now (we being taxpayers) if the living wage at least covered the individual's basic expenses. Perfect? No. Acceptable? Yes, to me. You seem angry that I'm supporting a system that would have workers and taxpayers better off than they are right now, so no, I don't think you've "got it" at all.

I'm all in favor of a safety net that ensures the well being of individuals. I'm less in favor of a "safety net" that ensures the well being of corporate bottom lines by allowing them to transfer the costs that they should bear for their employees and employee families to the public. If that means Walmart's crap is a little more expensive, or heaven forbid that the Walton family makes a little less, so be it.

ordinarysteve: I will never understand why poor people vote for the republicans year after year.

Religion. Opiates. Masses. And they are the stupid of our society. Just jingle a little jeebus in front of these babies and they go "gaga gogo Taxbongo is evil, SHOSHALISM!".

Now remember that headline linking low IQs to conservatism? I think this is the reason why most just kind of said "Well tell us something new" when seeing that article. What I want to know is why a moderately intelligent person today would willingly and publicly admit to being a conservative. Worse instead of trying to come up with something halfway intelligent to argue, they double down on the stupid every time some other half ass conservative shows the world just how gawd awfully dumb they are (cue Beck or Limbaugh).

Philip Francis Queeg: If that means Walmart's crap is a little more expensive, or heaven forbid that the Walton family makes a little less, so be it.

And how is that any different than what I'm saying? I want Walmart - and all employers - to pay a living wage, and if that means I pay a little more, so be it. As for the safety net subsidizing corporate profit, well, my way would be better than what we have now, even if it's not perfect.

So how about giving me your specific objection to what I just said?

Do any of the sane GOPers realize this is actually a really good strategy to make the general election at least somewhat close? I mean, the right wing derpers are going to vote (R) no matter what. For Romney to stand a chance, he has to get the people in the center to swing his way.

This was actually one of Obama's biggest failings. No joke, it's still on his website:

Raise the Minimum Wage to $9.50 an Hour by 2011: Barack Obama and Joe Biden believe that people who work full-time should not live in poverty. Even though the minimum wage will rise to $7.25 an hour by 2009, the minimum wage's real purchasing power will still be below what it was in 1968. As president, Obama will further raise the minimum wage to $9.50 an hour by 2011, index it to inflation and increase the Earned Income Tax Credit to make sure that full-time workers can earn a living wage that allows them to raise their families and pay for basic needs such as food, transportation, and housing -- things so many people take for granted.

This is actually a promise not met. One that Romney can hammer Obama on and say "Obama didn't do it, I will, vote Rmoney."

Link (new window)

I_Am_Weasel: WhyteRaven74: MugzyBrown: Because they chose to go down that path?

No one chooses to struggle and scrape by.

But they do. They choose to not go to school, they choose to take a liberal arts course, they choose their parents, they choose to work 20 years for a company who just shutter the doors one day...


They choose their particular level of intelligence, they choose a physical handicap, they choose the school district where they grow up, they choose to grow up poor and hungry, they choose a crime-riddled environment, they choose, they choose, they choose...

The Why Not Guy: Philip Francis Queeg: If that means Walmart's crap is a little more expensive, or heaven forbid that the Walton family makes a little less, so be it.

And how is that any different than what I'm saying? I want Walmart - and all employers - to pay a living wage, and if that means I pay a little more, so be it. As for the safety net subsidizing corporate profit, well, my way would be better than what we have now, even if it's not perfect.

So how about giving me your specific objection to what I just said?

My objection is to your unwillingness to consider children in the living wage. It's not a simple matter of "don't have them if you can't afford them". Children are a pretty basic fact of life. We don't need to shield corporations from the consequences of that fact.

Philip Francis Queeg: The Why Not Guy: Philip Francis Queeg: If that means Walmart's crap is a little more expensive, or heaven forbid that the Walton family makes a little less, so be it.

And how is that any different than what I'm saying? I want Walmart - and all employers - to pay a living wage, and if that means I pay a little more, so be it. As for the safety net subsidizing corporate profit, well, my way would be better than what we have now, even if it's not perfect.

So how about giving me your specific objection to what I just said?

My objection is to your unwillingness to consider children in the living wage. It's not a simple matter of "don't have them if you can't afford them". Children are a pretty basic fact of life. We don't need to shield corporations from the consequences of that fact.

So you're saying it's more important for people to be allowed to have children than it is for corporations to maximize profits? Ridiculous!

The Why Not Guy: EWreckedSean: Why does a highschool kid have to be paid a wage that provides himself food, shelter, clothing and health insurance, when what he needs is a wage that pays for his first beater car and going to the movies with his girlfriend on Friday nights?

1. I've specifically said that I'm talking about people who work a 40 hour week. I'm not sure many high school kids do that.

2. As for hourly wage, if the high school kid does the same work as the adult, why shouldn't he/she receive the same hourly wage?

Because all jobs don't support a living wage. It would be great to give burger flippers all $50k a year, but then nobody could afford fast food.

EWreckedSean: Because all jobs don't support a living wage. It would be great to give burger flippers all $50k a year, but then nobody could afford fast food.

And the problem would be?

EWreckedSean: The Why Not Guy: EWreckedSean: Why does a highschool kid have to be paid a wage that provides himself food, shelter, clothing and health insurance, when what he needs is a wage that pays for his first beater car and going to the movies with his girlfriend on Friday nights?

1. I've specifically said that I'm talking about people who work a 40 hour week. I'm not sure many high school kids do that.

2. As for hourly wage, if the high school kid does the same work as the adult, why shouldn't he/she receive the same hourly wage?

Because all jobs don't support a living wage. It would be great to give burger flippers all $50k a year, but then nobody could afford fast food.

Its either $7 an hour or $24 an hour, there is no in between.

THIS IS WHAT REPUBLICANS ACTUALLY BELIEVE

Monkeyhouse Zendo: EWreckedSean: How does it help the lowest earners when their job gets cut because the small business they work for was already struggling with salaries and the government made them raise rates every year?

I see you're wandered off into your fantasy world where all small business owners pay their employees minimum wage and are perennially at the brink of failure where an additional $80/week in costs will put them under. Let me know when you come back and we can have a discussion about reality.

I live in the real world where failure rates of small businesses is huge, and $400 on a mom and pop place is a big deal. Where do you live?

NateGrey: EWreckedSean: The Why Not Guy: EWreckedSean: Why does a highschool kid have to be paid a wage that provides himself food, shelter, clothing and health insurance, when what he needs is a wage that pays for his first beater car and going to the movies with his girlfriend on Friday nights?

1. I've specifically said that I'm talking about people who work a 40 hour week. I'm not sure many high school kids do that.

2. As for hourly wage, if the high school kid does the same work as the adult, why shouldn't he/she receive the same hourly wage?

Because all jobs don't support a living wage. It would be great to give burger flippers all $50k a year, but then nobody could afford fast food.

Its either $7 an hour or $24 an hour, there is no in between.

THIS IS WHAT REPUBLICANS ACTUALLY BELIEVE

Good strawman. The point is whether it is $15 an hour or $24 hour, some jobs don't support that type of wage.

EWreckedSean: Monkeyhouse Zendo: EWreckedSean: How does it help the lowest earners when their job gets cut because the small business they work for was already struggling with salaries and the government made them raise rates every year?

I see you're wandered off into your fantasy world where all small business owners pay their employees minimum wage and are perennially at the brink of failure where an additional $80/week in costs will put them under. Let me know when you come back and we can have a discussion about reality.

I live in the real world where failure rates of small businesses is huge, and $400 on a mom and pop place is a big deal. Where do you live?

Probably where median income is 26k in this country and falling while business profits are better and better every year. We tried your race to the bottom shenanigans and it has failed.

EWreckedSean: I live in the real world where failure rates of small businesses is huge, and $400 on a mom and pop place is a big deal. Where do you live?

It's funny how small business owners in Australia, Germany, Austria, Holland etc have no problem making sure their employees get paid a decent wage, get time off, deal with family etc. Kinda makes you wonder if the way in which American businesses are exceptional is something to actually encourage.

Erection is still getting the bites I see.

EWreckedSean: NateGrey: EWreckedSean: The Why Not Guy: EWreckedSean: Why does a highschool kid have to be paid a wage that provides himself food, shelter, clothing and health insurance, when what he needs is a wage that pays for his first beater car and going to the movies with his girlfriend on Friday nights?

1. I've specifically said that I'm talking about people who work a 40 hour week. I'm not sure many high school kids do that.

2. As for hourly wage, if the high school kid does the same work as the adult, why shouldn't he/she receive the same hourly wage?

Because all jobs don't support a living wage. It would be great to give burger flippers all $50k a year, but then nobody could afford fast food.

Its either $7 an hour or $24 an hour, there is no in between.

THIS IS WHAT REPUBLICANS ACTUALLY BELIEVE

Good strawman. The point is whether it is $15 an hour or $24 hour, some jobs don't support that type of wage.

So then you support the government having a robust system of social services to fill the gap for those workers, right?