The constitution only applies to fetuses

Quick! Shut down Seaworld!

I am taking the family to Orlando next month and the local in-laws are determined to drag us to every attraction in the area. It is really nice of them, but I can't survive a full week of theme parks. I need some freaking down-time!

Next up, KFC will be on trial for mass murder.

You can't keep them as slaves, then you definitely can't kill and eat them

Wow, just wow. The crazies really did it.

They're going to get their arses handed to them in this sham.

Slaxl: Those against it say they're kept in horrible conditions and in constant pain and cry a lot, whereas those for it say they're kept in nice conditions, happy and well fed. Who to believe?

Its not that hard
the animal is enslaved and imprisoned
Thats not nice

Do we care ? mmmm kinda
does the constitution cover it ?

// it barely covers humans

There is NO TRIAL, just a hearing on whether the judge should throw the case out (he will).

So if they get freed do we have to send them to the lil lisa recycling plant?

I bought one of my slaves just over a month ago. I'm about to feed them both in a few minutes. They've been bugging me for food for over 2 hours now. I'll yell at them again after I'm done with this post.
I'll probably sell off a few of their babies later this year.
At least they watch the house when I'm gone.
They're licensed and legal. For now.

I'd support some limited special rights for non-human species proven to be capable of recognizing themselves in a mirror. The vote and gun ownership for example. Though of course the Navy would only let us take their militarized dolphins if we pried them from their cold, dead hands.

Slaxl: Well it would be nice if animals could stop being used like that. Thing is, from an outsiders perspective, it's so hard to know the truth. Those against it say they're kept in horrible conditions and in constant pain and cry a lot, whereas those for it say they're kept in nice conditions, happy and well fed. Who to believe? Then those against say the trade in capturing and selling these animals for parks leads to huge collateral damage to ecosystems, but those for them say that they raise money that goes back to supporting the ecosystems.

If I wasn't so lazy I'd research it all and draw my own conclusions, but since this is fark... you tell me what to believe, provided you're neither a PETA member, nor a seaworld type park owner.


Some people take better care of their responsibilities than other people?

Sharing living space with an animal doesn't make it a slave. Birds, fish etc are likely captives but not slaves. My cats can leave if they want, but they don't, dammit!


/"I love birds. Let me clip his wings so he can't fly and I'll keep him in a cage to boot!"

sigh

That's because anyone who was a sheep was fired.

PETA tried something like this at my local aquarium. They wanted them to release the Dolphins and Matinees into the wild. But the aquarium brought up the best argument, The dolphins in the shows were born in captivity and would die in the wild. The matinees were all severely injured and couldn't survive in the wild. So releasing them into the wild would actually kill them.

I hope the judge is teasing PETA and making them think hes being serious about letting this go to trail.

What would reparations be? They only seem to want fish/seals that sort of thing. We could give them tons of those but of course that would be genocide.

Slaxl: but since this is fark... you tell me what to believe

I am not a peta person or a vegetarian or a hunter or even a gun owner. That said, watching trained and usually caged wild animals for amusement makes me feel.... uncomfortable. I don't enjoy it. I'd rather they live out their normal lifespan under as normal as possible circumstances for their species and then we not trap any new ones. I suppose that makes me a pussy. So be it.

Pinner: I bought one of my slaves just over a month ago. I'm about to feed them both in a few minutes. They've been bugging me for food for over 2 hours now. I'll yell at them again after I'm done with this post.
I'll probably sell off a few of their babies later this year.
At least they watch the house when I'm gone.
They're licensed and legal. For now.

I had my house slaves sterilized without their permission. I order them about and make them do tricks for their food. I do not permit them to wear clothing, but I force them to wear collars at all times. I frequently throw things out in the yard just so they have to bring it back to me. It's very demeaning for them.

Old argument is old.

yves0010: PETA tried something like this at my local aquarium. They wanted them to release the Dolphins and Matinees into the wild. But the aquarium brought up the best argument, The dolphins in the shows were born in captivity and would die in the wild. The matinees were all severely injured and couldn't survive in the wild. So releasing them into the wild would actually kill them.

I hope the judge is teasing PETA and making them think hes being serious about letting this go to trail.

I'm assuming you mean 'manatees'. And trial, for that matter.

Hopefully the Judge will impose Rule 11 sanctions against PETA's lawyer for signing his name to such a load of crap.

LordJiro: yves0010: PETA tried something like this at my local aquarium. They wanted them to release the Dolphins and Matinees into the wild. But the aquarium brought up the best argument, The dolphins in the shows were born in captivity and would die in the wild. The matinees were all severely injured and couldn't survive in the wild. So releasing them into the wild would actually kill them.

I hope the judge is teasing PETA and making them think hes being serious about letting this go to trail.

I'm assuming you mean 'manatees'. And trial, for that matter.

Work and typing quickly hoping you don't get caught has its downside to grammar and spelling issues. Plus, Stupid spell check isn't helping on this one.

antidisestablishmentarianism: So PETA's argument is that all mammals are people?

No they are arguing that all mammals are Ninjas

So when does the criminal trial begin for all of the "constitutionally protected" animals the PETA shelters euthanize every year?

Dear PETA,

Until you stop the wholesale slaughter of animals at your own headquarters (new window), kindly STFU.

Peace and bacon be unto you,
T_O_R, Esq.

"This is truly a historic day for the law and for the animals," spokesman David Perle said. Kerr added that "for the first time in our nation's history, a federal court heard arguments as to whether living, breathing, feeling beings have rights and can be enslaved simply because they happen to not have been born human."

Um... You need to learn you some history, dude. Non-human animals were put on trial in our nation's history, and quite a few European countries too. They were not only charged as defendants in crimes, but used as witnesses who gave testimony. So historically, the law did treat them on the same level as humans. Then we grew up and realized it's stupid to do that. Maybe you should, too.

Non-human animals absolutely do deserve some rights and protections under the law. But people they are not. Slavery it is not. Tone down your privileged white middle-class impotent rage for a moment, dude.

A prof at my school with whom I've had several classes is one of the witnesses and experts in the Victoria (Canada) Tillicum death case, where a trainer was killed in '91. Shortly thereafter SeaWorld bought the whale and shipped him to Florida. 2nd death by Tillicum, a homeless guy broke into seaworld at night and decided to go swim. With the Orcas. With Tillicum. They came back to work in the morning to find a dead guy at the bottom of the pool. (94) Third one was fairly recent, 2009, where the trainer was using 'face time' (as it sounds) and the whale grabbed her and took her down til she drowned. Said Prof is frequently flying down to Florida to take part in one of the several court cases against Sea World.

I am not blaming Tillicum in any way, shape, or form - you cannot take the hunter out of a predator. There have been other orca incidents at seaworld (hundreds of them, but SeaWorld has an excellent PR team and a lot of money to burn - they pay off their staff, promote them, settle out of court, etc). There have been other fatalities in the Cayman Islands Acquarium.

It's a moral debate whether to allow keeping large animals in captivity or not, and I'll try not to touch on that. For the record I believe only when education takes a top priority - IE sacrifice a few to save many. The wild whales are in trouble too. However, Seaworld only nominally educates people - they are a profit driven theme park that exploits the animals as rides and workers, not educational tools. I wish they would get shut down for all their dirty antics - they are as bad as Disney.

For the record, Tillicum is an Icelandic whale.

antidisestablishmentarianism: So PETA's argument is that all mammals are people?


No, just alive and therefore cognizant of any suffering.


/except fish, they have no nerve endings so they don't feel the mutilation that occurs when their lip is ripped off.
//yeah, right.

If we start granting rights to animals the next thing you know there will be pressure to grant rights to women, and who knows how that will end.

Keyword: Ethical

Ethical treatment. Sorry if that is too much to ask.

/I know, PETA got usurped by the fanatics years ago.

yves0010: PETA tried something like this at my local aquarium. They wanted them to release the Dolphins and Matinees into the wild. But the aquarium brought up the best argument, The dolphins in the shows were born in captivity and would die in the wild. The matinees were all severely injured and couldn't survive in the wild. So releasing them into the wild would actually kill them.

I hope the judge is teasing PETA and making them think hes being serious about letting this go to trail.

PETA doesn't care. :( PETA takes the ultra hard line that it's better to die in the wild than live in captivity. I'm like, sure, if you're an elephant chained up in a sick, frakked up backwoods circus with no companionship or stimulation. But PETA is anti-pet ownership and anti-any captivity, even if it's in the best interests of the individual animal who would die or be extinct otherwise. Fk 'em.

ExperianScaresCthulhu: yves0010: PETA tried something like this at my local aquarium. They wanted them to release the Dolphins and Matinees into the wild. But the aquarium brought up the best argument, The dolphins in the shows were born in captivity and would die in the wild. The matinees were all severely injured and couldn't survive in the wild. So releasing them into the wild would actually kill them.

I hope the judge is teasing PETA and making them think hes being serious about letting this go to trail.

PETA doesn't care. :( PETA takes the ultra hard line that it's better to die in the wild than live in captivity. I'm like, sure, if you're an elephant chained up in a sick, frakked up backwoods circus with no companionship or stimulation. But PETA is anti-pet ownership and anti-any captivity, even if it's in the best interests of the individual animal who would die or be extinct otherwise. Fk 'em.

That"s my take on PETA and Greenpeace. Heck, I loved what the State of Florida did the Greenpeace when they boarded a tanker and tried to take it over. They arrested them all and charged them all with a 100 year old piracy law that was still on the books.

Burke Turkey: A prof at my school with whom I've had several classes is one of the witnesses and experts in the Victoria (Canada) Tillicum death case, where a trainer was killed in '91. Shortly thereafter SeaWorld bought the whale and shipped him to Florida. 2nd death by Tillicum, a homeless guy broke into seaworld at night and decided to go swim. With the Orcas. With Tillicum. They came back to work in the morning to find a dead guy at the bottom of the pool. (94) Third one was fairly recent, 2009, where the trainer was using 'face time' (as it sounds) and the whale grabbed her and took her down til she drowned. Said Prof is frequently flying down to Florida to take part in one of the several court cases against Sea World.

I am not blaming Tillicum in any way, shape, or form - you cannot take the hunter out of a predator. There have been other orca incidents at seaworld (hundreds of them, but SeaWorld has an excellent PR team and a lot of money to burn - they pay off their staff, promote them, settle out of court, etc). There have been other fatalities in the Cayman Islands Acquarium.

It's a moral debate whether to allow keeping large animals in captivity or not, and I'll try not to touch on that. For the record I believe only when education takes a top priority - IE sacrifice a few to save many. The wild whales are in trouble too. However, Seaworld only nominally educates people - they are a profit driven theme park that exploits the animals as rides and workers, not educational tools. I wish they would get shut down for all their dirty antics - they are as bad as Disney.

For the record, Tillicum is an Icelandic whale.

Weren't there other whales and animals in the same general area, and they ALL went quiet and kept out of the way Tilicum accidentally (or on purpose) killed that lady? Sometimes we need to pay attention to the cues the other creatures are giving us (kind of like the bear dude who died in the same situation, all the other bears were acting different and staying away from the bear who ended up killing bear dude and his girlfriend). But that's neither here nor there. Tilicum is an individual, and not every animal in captivity acts like he did.

I wish there was a way to resolve Tilicum's case where Tilicum won't have to die, and no other humans (or other a nimals) have to die, either. i hope your friend is able to make a best case in the interests of everyone.

antidisestablishmentarianism: Rich Cream: /except fish, they have no nerve endings so they don't feel the mutilation that occurs when their lip is ripped off.
//yeah, right.

I hear clams have feelings too.

/no chowder for you..


All living things know when they are being harmed. To think otherwise is ignorant.

/hates seafood anyway

"Tilikum, Katina, Kasatka, Ulises and Corky have been captive and subjected to treatment that we feel is slavery,"

Kind of insulting that we keep using their slave names.

So if we pay them minimum wage, it wouldn't be slavery, right? And since they don't have pockets or hands, we can manage their money for them and buy them fish. We get to see Orcas, they get a good job with healthcare, which is nice. A good deal all around.

End Orca slavery!

ExperianScaresCthulhu: Burke Turkey:

Weren't there other whales and animals in the same general area, and they ALL went quiet and kept out of the way Tilicum accidentally (or on purpose) killed that lady? Sometimes we need to pay attention to the cues the other creatures are giving us (kind of like the bear dude who died in the same situation, all the other bears were acting diffe ...

I'm not sure about that, but it wouldn't surprise me. I don't think it would have made a difference as SeaWorld is run by the man, and there are schedules to meet and seats to fill. A junior trainer/performer has no say in cancelling a show.

This is what liberals actually believe.

I'm not sure how I feel on cetaceans being kept in captivity, but I am a believer that if pack/pod-dwelling animals are kept, they should be kept in groups as close as possible to those in the wild. Wolf packs, dolphin pods, etc. And as much enrichment as possible should be provided, though zoos are really getting better at that. San Diego, Omaha, and Des Moines especially are doing well at it.

Also, Tikillum is an individual of a species. Just as John Wayne Gacy doesn't represent all humans, neither does Tikillum represent all orcas. In his case, I'd be interested in comparing his brain structure to that of a) other orcas, b) other cetaceans, and c) to that of human serial killers/prisoners kept in solitary confinement for a long time

\Finishing degree in Animal Science with a focus on nutrition and enrichment
\\ Hope to work at a zoo if I don't get into grad school

I suppose it's a matter of degree and proportion.

Yes, humans are omnivores, and eating meat is natural. Yes, the natural world is cruel and harsh - the survival rates and suffering of animals in the wild is brutal. And yes, it's a slippery slope to try to anthropomorphize the natural world and apply modern Enlightenment concepts and legalities to nature and animals.

Yet, these whales are highly-intelligent creatures - how intelligent we don't even know yet, but certainly very intelligent and perhaps even sentient (by our definition). To callously treat them cruelly simply to sell tickets to what amounts to a circus side show is distasteful, and reflects badly on those who do it and those who buy the tickets and watch the shows. Humans really should be more thoughtful about how they treat animals of all kinds, and be more cognizant that many species are probably more perceptive, intelligent, and emotive than we suspect.

Basically, humans who gratuitously treat animals in a callous or cruel manner are arguably a lower form of life than the animals they mistreat. After all, we are supposedly intelligent enough to extrapolate the consequences of our actions. If you regard yourself as human, act like it.

If they win this one, we will all be vegetarians by the end of the year.