Lord McNally using the precedent argument is what's grossly indecent here not Turing life.

On the plus side, subby's headline passes the Turning test, so... +1.

'Turing Test', obviously.

*Goes to Fark chalkboard and prepares to write "Preview is my friend" 1,000 times*

I thought all the guys in England were at least bisexual.


/disappointed

So let that be a lesson to everyone convicted of laws we have today that people in the future may decide were bad laws: you're never getting pardoned either!

I suppose they think someone serving a life sentence for a law that has since been repealed should stay in prison.

Nem Wan: I suppose they think someone serving a life sentence for a law that has since been repealed should stay in prison.

Only if they are national heroes.

I think Alan Turing was maybe the greatest human being of the twentieth century, but it's what, 58 years too late for a pardon to matter? The government made an official apology and the law under which he was convicted no longer exists; a pardon at this late date would be an empty gesture. Honestly, it's just the sort of thing that drives me up the wall; let's all make amends for wrongs committed by the long dead upon the long dead, and then gather in a circle and sing farking kumbaya. It's totally meaningless.

I'm not sure Mr. Turing would have cared about a pardon. From my readings, he seemed utterly future focused. I think he'd rather the energy be spent on examining current laws and biases, so that we avoid future tragedies.

Looking at you, Anoka, Minnesota.

It doesn't matter what you do for the good of mankind - it only matters who you stick your dick into.

/facepalm.jpg.
//Too bad fundamentalism isn't illegal.

malaktaus: I think Alan Turing was maybe the greatest human being of the twentieth century, but it's what, 58 years too late for a pardon to matter? The government made an official apology and the law under which he was convicted no longer exists; a pardon at this late date would be an empty gesture. Honestly, it's just the sort of thing that drives me up the wall; let's all make amends for wrongs committed by the long dead upon the long dead, and then gather in a circle and sing farking kumbaya. It's totally meaningless.

Amen. The only way to really honor Turing is to ensure that fear and superstition have no place in our legal system ever again. Hollow gestures are hollow and the fact that his conviction stands is not an insult to Turing but a shameful reminder to the rest of us just how farked up people can be.

serial_crusher: Doesn't a pardon kind of send the wrong message? Like "well, we still think being gay is wrong, but we'll overlook it in Turing's case since he was such a bad ass. All those other gay people whose lives we ruined though? Yeah, they all deserved it."

Exactly. A pardon is useless. A public, blanket apology for homophobic legislation (and an attempt to get rid of extant laws) would be nice.

Marcus Aurelius: They murder the poor guy and then still can't get over their rampant homophobia.

What a sad, sad group of closed minded bigots.

Actually, read the reasons *why* they didn't pardon him.

My first thought was the same as yours- what a stupid bunch of coonts. But Lord Sharkey's right- he *was* guilty, and there's no reason to pardon him.

Let the conviction stand- to point out what an utterly horrible law it was. Better that than to try and whitewash it 58 years later. Would it make any difference if the US was to pass a law today declaring all the slaves free posthumously?

Nem Wan: So let that be a lesson to everyone convicted of laws we have today that people in the future may decide were bad laws: you're never getting pardoned either!

I suppose they think someone serving a life sentence for a law that has since been repealed should stay in prison.

That is in fact the logical result of literal application of the law of most countries. I think it is probably not best to apply the law in such a literal manner. I think this minister is a very silly person for listening to the droning of the legalistic idiots in the civil service.

The tagline isn't referring to the Turing test; it's referring to Turing completeness.

(And for those of you who already knew that, congrats on your CS degree.)

So the folks who burned innocent women at the stake for witchcraft were just doing what they thought was best, given the fact that they were fairly convicted under the existing law of congress with the devil...

Roger that!

In case anyone doesn't know the story of Alan Turing:

He was THE father of modern computer science. He literally anticipated problems in the 40's-50's that we didn't even realize were problems until ten years ago. He made tremendous contributions to science and humankind but was pressured into committing suicide after laws were passed in England which made homosexuality a crime.

I could go on for paragraphs and barely scratch the surface of his scientific contributions. Instead, I'll just mention that Turing is the man credited with breaking the naval Enigma code during World War II. This code was recognized as being the most difficult to decrypt, and once broken it gave the Allies a tremendous strategic advantage in the Atlantic, as this was the primary method of shipping men and materiel from America to the European theater. This man can be directly credited with saving lives and equipment. Turning's operation was a part of the larger British codebreaking group called Ultra, which has been credited with ending the War in Europe up to two years early.

Despite this contribution to the war effort and his countrymen, Alan Turing was declared a criminal and stripped of his security clearance (preventing his further work in crypt-analysis for the Government) for being gay. In lieu of going to prison he voluntarily chemically castrated himself through hormonal treatments. Two years later he was found dead of apparent suicide.

MrEricSir: The tagline isn't referring to the Turing test; it's referring to Turing completeness.

(And for those of you who already knew that, congrats on your CS degree.)

Thanks.

Subby, please write me a sonnet on the subject of the Firth of Forth bridge.

/Thanks.
//Limericks will not suffice.

doglover: I never liked the Turning Test.

You a zombie yet? No.
You a zombie yet? No.
You a zombie yet? No.
You a zombie yet? No.
You a zombie yet? No! And stop asking!
Ok...
...
You a zombie yet? Auuuuugh!

Very agrivating.

I see why.

I think he should be pardoned. It doesn't help the dead, but it lets the rest of understand that homophobia is wrong because it destroys lives.

namatad: mavrickatubc: I'm not sure Mr. Turing would have cared about a pardon. From my readings, he seemed utterly future focused. I think he'd rather the energy be spent on examining current laws and biases, so that we avoid future tragedies.

Looking at you, Anoka, Minnesota.

HOLY CRAP
1) thanks for the link - amazing and terrifying article
2) GAHHHHHH why did you make me read that so late at night ????

sigh
no more
no more supporting the haters
my new year's resolution is to stop supporting know bigots

*hug* Thank you :3

What a bunch of assholes.

Oh, gee, we'd love to pardon Oskar Schindler, but unfortunately, helping Jews was against the law of the country at the time. I'm afraid our hands are tied.

Interesting fact: Turing was in fact straight until he got farked into a nervous breakdown by a missing blonde named Claire Romilly.

What about all the other non-famous people who committed a crime that now doesn't exist? Like the old blasphemy laws in the UK that were repealed in 2008?

"The last man to be sent to prison for blasphemy was John William Gott. In 1922 he was sentenced to nine months hard labour for comparing Jesus with a circus clown."

Should William Gott be pardoned as well? And everyone before him who blasphemed? IMO it would be a waste of time, money and effort to go back and pardon everyone who ever broke a law that was repealed, and this is what the precedent ruling is all about.

The government has issued an apology, everyone is very sorry and the laws as they stand now make homophobia illegal (as a hate crime). The wrongs have been righted, unfortunately 58 years too late for Mr Turing.

mavrickatubc:
Looking at you, Anoka, Minnesota.

Yeah it has been a sad turn of events around here. Bad enough to see adults being assbackwards in this age, but the fact that new little Hate filled kids are still popping up is tragic.

A posthumous pardon was not considered appropriate as Alan Turing was properly convicted of what at the time was a criminal offence. He would have known that his offence was against the law and that he would be prosecuted.

Oh good lord. *sigh*

Too bad I grew up around people who thought like that. If you can call that thinking :(

Isn't it ironic that the man who probably did as much to swing the Allied powers to a victory over the Axis, in the face of what was overwhelming odds of certain defeat, now can't even get his record struck clean on the basis of an argument fomented in the logic of: We were just following orders?

The reality here, as pointed out in the comments section is that the real reason they don't want to grant Turing a pardon posthumously is because there are likely thousands of older men and women who were convicted under the same or similar statutes and they would likely have a claim against the government for denying them their civil rights.

lawboy87: Isn't it ironic that the man who probably did as much to swing the Allied powers to a victory over the Axis, in the face of what was overwhelming odds of certain defeat, now can't even get his record struck clean on the basis of an argument fomented in the logic of: We were just following orders?

The reality here, as pointed out in the comments section is that the real reason they don't want to grant Turing a pardon posthumously is because there are likely thousands of older men and women who were convicted under the same or similar statutes and they would likely have a claim against the government for denying them their civil rights.

I believe it's part of the old British tradition of "Faggots Must Die", of which the only cure is John Barrowman.
/yet again America saves the farking day in England

stonelotus: [i1207.photobucket.com image 300x333]

The guy who did the Apple logo placed the colours where they were because they worked well together. And it was created before the rainbow flag was widely associated with gay pride.

Nem Wan: So let that be a lesson to everyone convicted of laws we have today that people in the future may decide were bad laws: you're never getting pardoned either!

I suppose they think someone serving a life sentence for a law that has since been repealed should stay in prison.

There are two things at work here.

The first is that if someone breaks the law, no matter how abusive or stupid the law is, they deserve to be punished; which of course sets the precedent that individual morality must be secondary to the national morality.

The second is that the government refuses to be held accountable for its actions, and so, while it can admit that Turing was treated unfairly, it refuses to pardon him because in so doing it would give citizens the idea that they can hold the government accountable.

Both are about control.

It has nothing to do with homosexuality.

bravian:

stonelotus: [i1207.photobucket.com image 300x333]

The guy who did the Apple logo placed the colours where they were because they worked well together. And it was created before the rainbow flag was widely associated with gay pride.

It still works on multiple levels... The father of modern computing committed suicide over the response to his homosexuality by eating an apple dipped in cyanide.

lawboy87: Isn't it ironic that the man who probably did as much to swing the Allied powers to a victory over the Axis, in the face of what was overwhelming odds of certain defeat, now can't even get his record struck clean on the basis of an argument fomented in the logic of: We were just following orders?

What, Marian Rejewski was convicted of something? News to me.

Rejewski broke Enigma back in 1932/1933 while Turing was still just an undergrad at Cambridge, and Turing just started to build upon Rejewski's earlier work in 1939, aided by the fact that the Germans had just made incremental improvements, instead of wholesale changes to the system.

dittybopper: Interesting fact: Turing was in fact straight until he got farked into a nervous breakdown by a missing blonde named Claire Romilly.

I had to google that. It's pretty sad that movie straight-washed Turing's life.

Whats more interesting is that he was very much in love with a guy when young but the guy unfortunately died suddenly, which led him to atheism and to think about making machines that replace humans, is funny because few people know A.I.'s roots were conceived out of a tragic homosexual relationship.

I'm conflicted on this one, but I think a pardon would be ultimately counterproductive, as it would somehow diminish the impact of the historical lesson to be taken away from the whole shameful episode.

What was done to Turing (and countless others) was a travesty, and to grant him a posthumous pardon would be a like putting band-aid on a severed limb.

I see the anti-bigot bigot brigade is out in full force..

Waste of money, effort, resources, and time, as the law is now changed, it's a defacto admission, and that's all that's needed.

It has historical value in that it is a tragedy, any pardon given is merely lip service.

It also sets up a possibly false precedent for people convicted of crimes that may or may not be changed, or those that were recently changed.

If I get a speeding ticket today, it does not get pardoned in 10 years if the speed limit changes, for any reason.

If some kid gets drunk at 18(us law is 21) and in 5 years it's changed from 21 back to 18, all those kids are not exonerated. That's stupid BS.

A week, sure. A year? Maybe.
Years, decades? Not so much.

You've got to allow for the law to catch up to the times. Sure it was sad in retrospect that most people thought X was bad in the past, but that's the way law works, it tends to fit society. It's not retroactive for long lengths of time, if it were, the legal system would never catch up and indeed, the new law changes that we do need to fit today's society would be backed up.

I'd much rather Turing not get a pardon, but today's broken laws get fixed that much sooner, to avoid as many cases as possible.

/stop crying over spilt milk like some emo schoolgirl
//just try not to spill any more
///farking children

mantidor: dittybopper: Interesting fact: Turing was in fact straight until he got farked into a nervous breakdown by a missing blonde named Claire Romilly.

I had to google that. It's pretty sad that movie straight-washed Turing's life.

Don't let that turn you off the movie, though. Other than that, it's an *EXCELLENT* film, and it handles SIGINT in a way that makes it accessible to those not familiar with the subject.

That link gave me spyware. Thanks, submitter

MrEricSir: The tagline isn't referring to the Turing test; it's referring to Turing completeness.

(And for those of you who already knew that, congrats on your CS degree.)


Thank you!

omeganuepsilon: You've got to allow for the law to catch up to the times. Sure it was sad in retrospect that most people thought X was bad in the past, but that's the way law works, it tends to fit society. It's not retroactive for long lengths of time, if it were, the legal system would never catch up and indeed, the new law changes that we do need to fit today's society would be backed up.

This is kind of a key point - in most cases like this, the problem isn't the government, but the majority of the population that creates laws like these. It is not like in the 1940s the populace of the UK was a gay friendly paradise in which the entire public was tolerant of homosexuality, but the government viciously ignored the will of the people creating anti-homosexual laws, but rather they were upholding laws based on the wishes of the vast majority.

"He accepted treatment with female hormones (chemical castration) as an alternative to prison."

stay calm and carry on, brits.

Now to implement this everyplace in Britain, the prisons should be full to exploding in a week.