Canton: Trains have a mystique about them, at least to some of us.

I guess I see them through my dad's eyes, where railroads mean days or weeks away from your family, dirty smelly work, annoying railroad regulations, annoying union regulations, and smartass 23 year old brakemen who want to get stoned and bill the company for fake overtime.

Canton: ko_kyi: as the son of a career railroad man (worked his way up to engineer, about as high as you could go in the 1970s without a college education) I have to ask, what is so goddamned fascinating about railroads?

Well, they're a bit old-school, at least in the US. The sound of the cars over the tracks just hasn't changed all that much, not the way the sound of autos has changed, what with developments in both road construction and engine design. When I took the admittedly long trip from Michigan to Philadelphia by rail, I road in these lovely, relaxing modern passenger cars, yet there was an element of history, too. You can close your eyes and pretend you're in another time, another place.

Trains have a mystique about them, at least to some of us.

I think the (waning?) popularity of model railroading for kids/teens might have a lot to do with it too.

Antagonism: I really don't know why people shiat on trains.

I... sort of do.

I've ridden the train a couple times, going from Madison WI to central PA, and it's been sort of a mixed bag. On one hand, it's very relaxing. It's actually relatively enjoyable. You can get up and move around, you have awesomely comfortable and large seats, etc.

On the other hand... there are a lot of problems. One is somewhat particular to my location, which is that the closest Amtrak hub is in Chicago -- a 3 1/2 bus ride away, and then you get there almost 3 hours before the train leaves, which kills the "you don't have to wait around in the airport" benefit.

The second is that it's slow. The actual scheduled time from Chicago to Pittsburgh, for instance, is 9:25. Google maps puts that drive at less than 8 hours. And that's not counting connections and dealing with the ends of the trip, or the fact that Amtrak trains are (at least in my experience) often late. (The first time I took the train, we got into Pittsburgh about 2 hrs late; maybe 3.) My door-to-door time on those trips was over 24 hours... the same trip by car is 13-14 hrs. (I think the schedules changed slightly it might be more like 22 hr now.) And when you start talking about trips like that, the benefits of not having to actually be the driver start to get outweighed by the drawbacks of having to sleep on the train.

The third is that it's fairly expensive. I checked the Chicago -> Pittsburgh price for Wed Feb 22 (a fairly randomly chosen date). Amtrak is $64, while a Southwest flight is $69. (In fairness I'm having a hard time actually selecting that latter fare; it keeps saying it's unavailable and bumping it up to $140.) The same has held in my experience in the past: Amtrak is cheaper, but not by much.

The fourth is that they're often not in control very much. They own almost none of the rail they use, which means that Amtrak traffic is in some sense a bit of a second-class citizen. One of the times I took the train there was a freight derailment east of Chicago, which basically borked their schedule completely. We had to take a bus from Chicago to Toledo. We actually got moving early enough that we could have made it to Pittsburgh in time for me to make my connection, except we stopped and sat motionless somewhere around Cleveland for almost 2 hours, presumably waiting for freight traffic to clear.

(In Amtrak's defense they were relatively together with accomodations. We got on buses in Chicago at the same time we were supposed to be getting on the train -- though to take away the support for a second we then waited around for an hour for some paperwork to go through -- and they had busses waiting in Pittsburgh, and put up basically zero objection when I said I'd arranged alternate transportation from Pittsburgh and could I have a refund for that portion of the ticket.)

In short, if you are looking to take just some lazy vacation around the country (and you're rich/spendy enough to afford a sleeper car), or if there is a line that goes from where you are to right where you want to go and that's no more than a few hundred miles, or apparently if you live along the Acela line corridor, Amtrak is great. But if you're looking for a way to go from point A to point B, I think it comes with some major caveats.

ProfessorOhki: penthesilea: You don't want to fark over the entire day's schedule by being the dumbass TSA agent that got flattened by a train. They have to halt everything whilst they search for *all* your splattered bits amongst the gravel and then fill out paperwork with the police.

Of all the reasons for a train to be delayed, I think that's one of the ones I'd have the fewest problems with.

I disagree. I missed a close friend's wedding because some asshole threw himself in front of a train. I had left THREE HOURS EARLY for a normally three-hour journey, and didn't arrive until the reception was over.

Take some photos, scrape off the tracks, and roll 'em. Fark you, you aren't that important.

Oh, and if you close a major freeway AWing on a bridge, you get 10 minutes, one phone call, and then we grab you or scrape the mess on to the shoulder. FARK YOU for disabling half a city at rush hour, kill yourself in your bathtub if you really mean it, otherwise GTFO, I got shiat to do.

NEWJERSEYFARKTAG: Amagi: I actually think security is one of the major reasons investing in high speed rail projects would be a profoundly stupid thing to do in this country (besides being incredibly capital intensive and that there is exactly one high speed line (not entire systems) that is actually run in the black in the entire world (the Paris-Lyon line). Just an observation...

Ummmmmmmm. Amtrak runs the NEC in the black. Dispite the top speed of 150mph, on 100 year old right of ways. Granted, much of the proffit comes from local transit paying track rights as well as the freight lines ponying up to use the rails after midnight. The NEC sees far more traffic now, both passenger and freight, than it did at the peek of WW2.

That starts getting pretty complicated to figure out how the financing for that system has actually worked over the long-term...the initial operators of the lines went bankrupt, large amounts of federal financing during the northeast corridor improvement project in the 70s, Northeast High Speed Rail Improvement Program (NHRIP) funding in the 90s, etc.

Link (new window)
NEC Wiki

Basically, what I am trying to say is that it might be in the black now, but I have strong suspicion of you were able to tally up the costs over the total life span; it would definitely be in the red and only exist in its current form through large government subsidies.

ko_kyi: Canton: Trains have a mystique about them, at least to some of us.

I guess I see them through my dad's eyes, where railroads mean days or weeks away from your family, dirty smelly work, annoying railroad regulations, annoying union regulations, and smartass 23 year old brakemen who want to get stoned and bill the company for fake overtime.

Oh, I understand that. You do tend to learn about your parents' jobs whether or not you want to know. (I grew up seeing state bureaucracy through my mother's eyes. That's stressful work, and I learned that most government peons do not like red tape any more than anyone else.) Most of us just don't get to see the inner-turmoils of the system.

Noticeably F.A.T.: just passing through: I guess I have to duck when I say this, but I've never had any problems with airport security. Yes, the lines are occassionally too long when they don't manage throughput appropriately. But I never thought the security screening itself was a big deal. I guess I'm the lucky one, but I've never even seen anyone from security be rude.

/yes, I do travel a good bit

Ok, so they've been polite. Have you ever seen them do anything likely to stop a terrorist? Or do the just politely inconvenience people?

I haven't seen them tackle or shoot anybody, if that's what you mean. They screen the bags, guide people through the scanners. Doesn't seem failproof, of course, but it looks like a legit deterrent process to me. I admit that I'm certainly no security guru though.

And I guess my point was that it really wasn't that much of an inconvenience in the first place.

AbbeySomeone: Good. Amtrak has always been a pleasant experience for me.

Really? Because they've never been able to get me from Chicago to Fort Wayne (VIA Waterloo, IN) in less time that it takes by car, nor for less money.

It should be do-able, according to their schedules and rates, but in three tries they've never come close.

/I applaude what they're doing here, but I'd never consider riding them again.

just passing through: But I never thought the security screening itself was a big deal.

It's never been a big deal for me, but it is obnoxious. Standing in line for often-substantial lengths of time is obnoxious. Having to rearrange your goods to go through the security line (put all your misc pocket stuff into the tray, unpack laptop, go through, move stuff back to pockets, repack laptop) is obnoxious.

And then there are some things that go beyond just an inconvenience. Not being able to bring in drinks actually costs money if you want something more interesting than water. Forgetting that you have a pocketknife with you actually costs money when you have to buy a replacement. Ditto for things like large toothpaste containers. Having to check a bag because you have something in it which you're not allowed to carry on because of the strict regulations costs money.

And that's not even getting into the abstract notions of intrusiveness. (Or things like preventing family from coming with you to the gate, or preventing inquisitive kids like myself from going to the gate to watch the planes take off and land without any legitimate business there at all. Or the fact that the airport in my home town is so small that, for several years after 9/11, there was actually no bathroom after you pass through security -- so if you needed to take a piss, you had to leave the controlled area and go through the security rigmarole again.)

9beers: Amtrak doesn't have shiat to say about it if it's decided that the TSA is going to take over security.

Actually they can tell them to fark off. Here you go, since you missed the best part of the article.

From TFA: A great deal of credit for VIPR improvement should go to Amtrak's police chief, John O'Connor, who was so outraged about an incident in Savannah, Georgia, in February 2011 that he angrily threw VIPR teams off Amtrak property until they learned how not to make fools of themselves

I also enjoyed this little gem.

From TFA: The TSA demanded that VIPR agents be allowed to enter yards at any hour of the day or night without notice and to watch employees from hidden positions. The railroads told the TSA to go to hell. Yards are dangerous places for amateurs, they said. It is easy to lose a leg or be crushed between couplers, not to mention that many yard employees unofficially carry guns to kill rats, and they could kill a rat in the weeds that turned out to be a human being.

KrispyKritter: a nephew who spent too much time immersing himself into online conspiracy paranoia sites (negative side effect of long term unemployment) long ago told me the end goal is to one day have checks at all heavily used points of public transportation in the usa. i'm so glad he found a job and a good woman, now his wife. these things really helped him to lighten up a little.

You don't think it's awfully convenient that your nephew landed a new job and met a good woman who got him away from the online conspiracy sites? It sounds to me like he got close to something... something big... and now something he noticed just noticed him noticing. Your nephew's blushing bride is most likely an operative in the employ of people who will stop at nothing to find out what he knows and who else knows it. Do you ever email your nephew, or speak with him on the phone? Because they can track that shiat, man.

evaned: Antagonism: I really don't know why people shiat on trains.

I... sort of do.

I've ridden the train a couple times, going from Madison WI to central PA, and it's been sort of a mixed bag. On one hand, it's very relaxing. It's actually relatively enjoyable. You can get up and move around, you have awesomely comfortable and large seats, etc.

On the other hand... there are a lot of problems. One is somewhat particular to my location, which is that the closest Amtrak hub is in Chicago -- a 3 1/2 bus ride away, and then you get there almost 3 hours before the train leaves, which kills the "you don't have to wait around in the airport" benefit.

The second is that it's slow. The actual scheduled time from Chicago to Pittsburgh, for instance, is 9:25. Google maps puts that drive at less than 8 hours. And that's not counting connections and dealing with the ends of the trip, or the fact that Amtrak trains are (at least in my experience) often late. (The first time I took the train, we got into Pittsburgh about 2 hrs late; maybe 3.) My door-to-door time on those trips was over 24 hours... the same trip by car is 13-14 hrs. (I think the schedules changed slightly it might be more like 22 hr now.) And when you start talking about trips like that, the benefits of not having to actually be the driver start to get outweighed by the drawbacks of having to sleep on the train.

The third is that it's fairly expensive. I checked the Chicago -> Pittsburgh price for Wed Feb 22 (a fairly randomly chosen date). Amtrak is $64, while a Southwest flight is $69. (In fairness I'm having a hard time actually selecting that latter fare; it keeps saying it's unavailable and bumping it up to $140.) The same has held in my experience in the past: Amtrak is cheaper, but not by much.

The fourth is that they're often not in control very much. They own almost none of the rail they use, which means that Amtrak traffic is in some sense a bit of a second-class citizen. One of the times I took the t ...

I guess I either have A - been lucky, or B - it really is better in the western half of the states. My last few Amtrak trips were slightly more expensive than Greyhound, but when compared to any airline is cheaper by far.

Also, I can't remember the last time someone had their head severed by a maniac on Amtrak.

just passing through: guess I have to duck when I say this, but I've never had any problems with airport security.

Oh, and in addition to the objections I brought up before, there's the $8.1 billion/year of taxpayer money that the TSA spends telling people to take off their shoes. That's over $20/US citizen/year average, though there's a good chance you pay less than that.

I also forgot to mention the mostly-legitimate concerns about the medical effects of radiation from the full-body scanners they have now. (This is more true for the workers than passengers.)

And I'm not saying that we shouldn't have any security, or even drop the metal detectors and such. My point is more like "you can't make an informed decision about the cost-benefit of airport security if you don't realize the costs".

Tavernknight: Actually they can tell them to fark off. Here you go, since you missed the best part of the article.

Because the government couldn't possibly change the rules, nope.

I work for Amtrak. We're more concerned about them than al Qaeda. Personally I think al Qaeda treats women better.

9beers: Amtrak doesn't have shiat to say about it if it's decided that the TSA is going to take over security.

Actually we do. We are the only non road mode of trasportation with our own police department.

redmid17: ElevenBravo: I work for Amtrak. We're more concerned about them than al Qaeda. Personally I think al Qaeda treats women better.

I'd be more willing to shoot a TSA employee in the face than an Al Qaeda member.

Have fun next time you try to fly.

ElevenBravo: Actually we do. We are the only non road mode of trasportation with our own police department.

As somebody else already pointed out, Amtrak is a government owned corporation. If the goddamn federal government wants the goddamn TSA in charge of security, they'll goddamn write some rules to make it happen.

Indubitably: Hector Remarkable: The TSA is a totalitarian weapon against the citizens of the United States and should be completely disbanded, immediately.

+1

You know there's a button for that now.

Shocktopus: ProfessorOhki: penthesilea: You don't want to fark over the entire day's schedule by being the dumbass TSA agent that got flattened by a train. They have to halt everything whilst they search for *all* your splattered bits amongst the gravel and then fill out paperwork with the police.

Of all the reasons for a train to be delayed, I think that's one of the ones I'd have the fewest problems with.

I disagree. I missed a close friend's wedding because some asshole threw himself in front of a train. I had left THREE HOURS EARLY for a normally three-hour journey, and didn't arrive until the reception was over.

Take some photos, scrape off the tracks, and roll 'em. Fark you, you aren't that important.

Oh, and if you close a major freeway AWing on a bridge, you get 10 minutes, one phone call, and then we grab you or scrape the mess on to the shoulder. FARK YOU for disabling half a city at rush hour, kill yourself in your bathtub if you really mean it, otherwise GTFO, I got shiat to do.

Hey now, there's a difference between a suicide and a TSA agent being a dumbass. Give me some credit.

Also, I didn't say I'd appreciate the delay, but I'd be more accepting of a delay caused by TSA squishiness than I would one caused by the TSA otherwise.

9beers: ElevenBravo: Actually we do. We are the only non road mode of trasportation with our own police department.

As somebody else already pointed out, Amtrak is a government owned corporation. If the goddamn federal government wants the goddamn TSA in charge of security, they'll goddamn write some rules to make it happen.

Well, if they want to undertake an exercise in pure idiocy, then they are welcome to it. It'll just prove, beyond doubt, that the TSA's goal isn't security.

Dupa: AbbeySomeone: Good. Amtrak has always been a pleasant experience for me.

Really? Because they've never been able to get me from Chicago to Fort Wayne (VIA Waterloo, IN) in less time that it takes by car, nor for less money.

It should be do-able, according to their schedules and rates, but in three tries they've never come close.

/I applaude what they're doing here, but I'd never consider riding them again.

Are you factoring in wear and tear on your car, the possibility of getting into an accident, and the stress of driving?

ElevenBravo: I work for Amtrak. We're more concerned about them than al Qaeda. Personally I think al Qaeda treats women better.

THIS.

Enigmamf: Indubitably: Hector Remarkable: The TSA is a totalitarian weapon against the citizens of the United States and should be completely disbanded, immediately.

+1

You know there's a button for that now.


There's a button for disbanding the TSA?

Amagi: I actually think security is one of the major reasons investing in high speed rail projects would be a profoundly stupid thing to do in this country (besides being incredibly capital intensive and that there is exactly one high speed line (not entire systems) that is actually run in the black in the entire world (the Paris-Lyon line). Just an observation...

I know! We should just put in more freeways, which as everyone knows operate at a significant profit.

/it's called infrastructure, dumbass. Everything doesn't have to make a direct profit.

Click Click D'oh: Those silly VIPR teams occasionally show up on commuter trains here in Texas.. which really seems very pointless because you already know there's a dozen guns riding the train. What are they going to do, ask you if you have any weapons? Why yes TSAman, I do... what are you going to do about it? Welcome to Texas.

That's one of the thing I mention about BART. On any given train, someone(s) has a gun, day in day out, year after year. I don't really remember anyone getting shot on a train. On the other hand nutters shoot at random cars on the freeway all the time.

Shocktopus: /it's called infrastructure, dumbass. Everything doesn't have to make a direct profit.

Yeah, about that...it actually sorta does. Everything really does have to make a "profit", or it goes away in the long run. The roads have to be cost-effective, or they'll be ripped out like all of the rail lines were.

We pay taxes on gasoline, which is set aside to fund the federal/state highway systems. The trucking companies pay a taxes also. This money is used to fund the maintenance of the roads.

Because idiots like you think that "everything doesn't have to make a direct profit", and because the funds are managed by bureaucrats, the maintenance costs are not appropriately distributed/apportioned based on damage to the roads, and in the long run, our roads do end up in bad shape.

The truckers/18-wheelers do significantly more damage to the roads than passenger vehicles, but because the nimrods that think "infrastructure doesn't have to make a profit...", they don't tax the truckers enough. The big trucks destroy the roads. The cars could ride on them forever if it weren't for the 18 wheelers (in many climates/soil conditions).

The reason the 18 wheelers are on the roads at all, is that they're not taxed appropriately. They should be shipping heavy loads by rail. But guess what? Because some jackass said "infrastructure doesn't have to make a profit", we built rails and then they fell into disrepair. And it was cheaper to ship the loads on 18 wheelers instead of by rail. So they tore up a large portion of our "infrastructure" (the rail lines), because they weren't being used. So now, our rail system is gone. And our highway systems are crumbling. All because some jackass like you thought "oh...capitalism sucks...everything shouldn't make money...let's just build some shiat and see what happens"...

Avery614: /should have let them in, just don't warn them
//would've made a great thread


Even better....get them to stand out on the mainline.

Dispatch desk: UP Omaha Dispatch 11 to KLBCH , Signal indication, Clear to enter CTC track 202 for a eastbound move. 2330 dispatcher JK, over

KLBCH: UP1996 to UP Omaha Dispatch 11, Signal indication Clear to enter CTC track 202 for eastbound move, 23:30 dispatcher JK, over

Dispatch: Correct repeat for KLBCH up1996, Highball all the way to 59th street so I don`t have to run The Bird around you. out



***splat***

AmTrak Big Cop playing all ITG, sure, but you STILL MUST HAVE AN ID to ride The Cap Corridor from Richmond Ca to Davis Ca.

How is it remotely possible to require an ID to travel intra-state? I know I know "TSA" - that's what the conductor told me, too.

Complete bullshiate!

So... question for the older farkers...

This is basically the same bullshiat we got with McCarthyism, just with "commie" swapped out for "tearist". How long did it take the country to come to its farking senses and disband the last round of this crap?

Canton: That said, last time I travelled by plane, the TSA agents were very polite.

The last time I traveled by plane, the TSA agents were polite, too. Of course, they waited until the plane started to board to start pulling people out of the boarding line to test the opened water and soda bottles that people were already drinking. They tested my bottled water, which I purchased from an airport vendor after the screening checkpoint, right after I took a sip (just in case I couldn't taste the explosives, I guess.) Of course, I carried two more bottles in my backpack that I didn't let them know about; otherwise, I might have missed the flight entirely.

gimmegimme: Mikeyworld: I love the implied blackmail by government agencies. FTFA:

"Again, the TSA had no choice. It is not well known, but the TSA must have permission to go onto private property. That makes no difference at airports because the TSA must approve any new airport security arrangements if the agency is ordered to leave. The TSA has made it known that it will immediately move its equipment out of any airport that tells it to leave, and it will take weeks or months to approve any new security arrangements and equipment."

Blackmail, pure and simple

/"nice airport. Wouldn't want anything to happen to it"
//no parking in the red zone

Damn Obama. Damn Democrats. When will they stop stealing our civil liberties by starting agencies like the TSA? They just want to spend more money and have an excuse to collect more tax $$$.

Remind me, again, who was the unelected "President" in 2001.

SphericalTime: My favorite part of this article is that it appears that the Amtrak police are refusing to cover up the incompetence of the VIPR teams and requests.

If only all agencies felt so free to criticize each other.

Specialist cops are generally the good ones, it doesn't surprise me that this one's willing to stand on procedure, principle and law and tell the TSA goons to fark off if they won't play by the rules.

trerro: So... question for the older farkers...

This is basically the same bullshiat we got with McCarthyism, just with "commie" swapped out for "tearist". How long did it take the country to come to its farking senses and disband the last round of this crap?

Couple decades. However, it's also a version of basically the same line of thinking that turned Rome from a republic into a dictatorship, and that was fairly permanent... so, yeah, good luck with that, I guess is what I'm saying here.

Jim_Callahan: Couple decades. However, it's also a version of basically the same line of thinking that turned Rome from a republic into a dictatorship, and that was fairly permanent... so, yeah, good luck with that, I guess is what I'm saying here.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens. The vast increase in the security state is the work of the baby boomers. Raised on Cold War nationalism and paranoia. Potentially there is a big shiat storm brewing between them and GenY. So it will be interesting if GenX and GenY are willing to keep putting up with this.

dukwbutter: Enigmamf: Indubitably: Hector Remarkable: The TSA is a totalitarian weapon against the citizens of the United States and should be completely disbanded, immediately.

+1

You know there's a button for that now.


There's a button for disbanding the TSA?

Yes, but if you push the button, it means Global Thermo-Neuclear War.

The TSA is the most expensive & largest theater troop is human history. And with audience participation, too!

BolloxReader: sharkbeagle: On any given AMTRAK train there's maybe 7 people who aren't 400lb black women, on drugs or sleeping/crazy.

I think you have Greyhound and Amtrak confused. Amtrack is the one with fine dining options and a number of crappers to choose from. Greyhound attracts the long distance bottom feeder crowd with cattlecar conditions. Why I dunno because my last trip Amtrak was the low fare option. I became an Amtrak fanboi after that experience. Room to stretch out, lounge and dining cars, a range of rides from senior citizen tourists to collge students to chat with.....

Plus outlets at every seat.

I was going to biatch the last time I took Amtrak because there was one seat open (well, one two-seat-row and everyone had stuff spread out) and the kids behind me were jumpy as hell. Then I heard another woman mention to their mom that they were well-behaved since they had both been on the trip... several hours ago... and the second woman mentioned they'd been on for 24 hours. New Orleans to Michigan.

I gave the kids a pass then and felt kinda bad. Plus they all got out at the next stop anyway.

If Amtrak was *just* $5 cheaper to go home to see the parents, I'd take it twice as often. Costs $15, and $10 is what gas would cost. I still take it every now and then because it is kinda nice. Plus around here there's a bus that takes me straight to the station so, bonus.

highwayrun:
Remind me, again, who was the unelected "President" in 2001.

I believe the current FOX News/RNC position is that anything bad that has ever happened after January 20, 2001 is the fault of the Kenyan Muslim Socialist Barack Obama, and that anything good that has happened is because of the bold leadership of national hero and good Christian George W. Bush.

way south: You laugh now, but one of these days a terrorist will hijack a train and drive it right through grand central station!

/...and it will be on schedule.

That's crazy talk!

YAY to Amtrak. I hope they can continue to fend the TSA off

What idiot would take a bomb on a train? Why blow up a train car when you can just hop a fence, mess with the tracks and derail an entire train?

VIPR teams at rail stations make no sense, especially when they're just doing spot checks. I mean, the bomber can just go to another station or come back another day.

/security theater etc etc

Walker: If terrorists want to kill people on a train they can just park a truck full of explosives on any of the thousands of miles of unguarded tracks or just stop on a public road that tracks run right over. Searching people with airport-like security is stupid for trains. Nothing is 100% safe. Yes, someone can walk onto a train with a bomb, but they can walk into a shopping mall with a bomb too. Do we need to go thru nude scanners to get into a shopping mall too? Probably one day knowing this country.

Fixed it. It's pretty farking retarded for planes as well.

penthesilea: Which means the TSA can't do things their heavy handed way at Amtrak. Amtrak knows that they'd lose all their customers if the TSA locked down train stations and started groping everyone.

Why don't the airlines get this?

9beers: Amtrak doesn't have shiat to say about it if it's decided that the TSA is going to take over security.

Sure it does. Last time they tried that at Portland, everybody just waited behind the checkpoint until the boarding call, and moved as a single herd through the checkpoint without stopping. Safety in numbers: Amtrak passengers haz it.