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From the "Who didn't see this coming?" files: Insurance companies and lawyers screw 9/11 families out of large portions of their entitlements
(
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ZAZ
2012-02-05 10:19:40 AM
They signed onto division of a fixed pool of money. If some people got less than predicted, others must have more. Those with less get attention.
As for the costs and fees, the example in the NY Post article shows the law firm taking a 31% cut which may be grossly excessive for this case but is not at all unusual in personal injury lawsuits in general.
mauricecano
2012-02-05 01:25:16 PM
Actually the fees sound generous for personal injury. In this state, attorney's normally get 30-50% after legal fees depending if a case has to be filed and taken to jury. People need to understand that legal fees are not attorney's fees, they are the actual cost associated with prosecuting a claim and the cost are carried by the law firm but they are also cost the plaintiff owes if they receive a recovery. If there is no recovery then the firm is out the actual cost.
ZAZ
2012-02-05 02:57:59 PM
mauricecano
I thought the 1/3 or whatever contingency fee was supposed to pay for all costs borne by the law form except for court filing fees, i.e. it's 33% plus "court costs" not 33% plus court costs plus office overhead plus legwork. I read somewhere that lawyers were not allowed to cover their clients' filing fees. That rule may vary from state to state.
Weaver95
2012-02-05 03:13:17 PM
but are the bankers and wall street ok? I mean...we can't have anything happen to the important people, right?
God knows...we have to have our priorities straight!
mauricecano
2012-02-05 04:11:12 PM
ZAZ
:
mauricecano
I thought the 1/3 or whatever contingency fee was supposed to pay for all costs borne by the law form except for court filing fees, i.e. it's 33% plus "court costs" not 33% plus court costs plus office overhead plus legwork. I read somewhere that lawyers were not allowed to cover their clients' filing fees. That rule may vary from state to state.
Varies per state, in GA attorney's in personal injury are expected to cover everything. The only things we cannot cover is medical treatment fees (and there are ways around that). Most doctors end up taking anywhere between 20-80% off their medical bills as well in order to get a settlement in most cases, better to have some from the recovery than nothing and scuttle the deal. Chrio's always take only 50% and inflate their fees accordingly.
In contingency cases, the contingency fee is for attorney's fee in handling the case and taking the risk. It is stated up front that the cost associated with handling the case are billed separately and the responsibility of the client. Contingency doesn't just cove the attorney's time but also represents a fee taken by the attorney on the risk of success or failure as if the case is decided against them they collect nothing as attorney's will eat the legal fees as well.
In a personal injury car crash here are some basic fees BEFORE filing: PI to take pictures of the scene and take any relevant measurements; medical record copies of treatment which range from $0.25-$1/page and more if you need certified copies; deposition of opposing driver (court reporter time + transcript cost) if the insurance company is stonewalling (common to reject all claims first time around); witness fees; and if serious injury you will need a medical expert to detail injuries and future treatment needs; all of this generates a large amount of travel, copies, postage, etc.
Now in the above scenario alone, you are looking at a minimum of $500-$2000 without the medical expert; when you add in the medical expert the fees really start to skyrocket. Now add in hearings, the transportation cost is not free and if you need an assistant that will be billed as well as most contingencies only cover the attorney work, not the assistants. Suddenly you've added $400-$2000 for each hearing depending on the length and what you need at the hearing. You are responsible for providing copies of all your evidence to the court as well and opposing counsel which is more copy cost.
So if you have a $15,000 settlement with a 30% contingency. The attorney's contingency fee is $4,500 but there is probably $1000-$5000 in legal fees paid out as well. Should the attorney's fee be essentially reduced or eliminated because of the legal fees? No, the attorney put in the hours for the work and should be paid as they did their job and provided you with recovery. You should rightfully have to pay for all legal fees paid on your behalf to get to that point. Does it reduce your recovery? Yes it does but it isn't unfair and the attorney isn't getting richer or making more by having the legal fees paid as they already paid those out, they are being made whole.
You'll also find that many attorneys will reduce their contingency in the end in order to provide more recovery to the client if fees are exceedingly high. At least many of the colleagues I know will.
2wolves
2012-02-05 04:36:12 PM
Weaver95
:
but are the bankers and wall street ok? I mean...we can't have anything happen to the important people, right?
God knows...we have to have our priorities straight!
Truly the victims in this tragedy.
consciousNOT
2012-02-05 04:36:36 PM
Entitlements. God I hate that word.
/drtfa
ichiban
2012-02-05 04:37:06 PM
FTFA:
In one case...estimated his city payout at $532,826 to $650,267...his city award came to $115,480...but after fees, he received $79,292.
Man. That really sucks.
Barakku
2012-02-05 04:38:22 PM
>Lawyers
>Screwed
Somehow I'm less than surprised.
/By reading this statement you forfeit all liability and $500 to me
Reverend Monkeypants
2012-02-05 04:38:23 PM
When people who get jobs doing dangerous stuff sue because their jobs are dangerous it makes me wince.
Isn't this somehow like a police officer suing the city after he got shot in the line of duty during a standoff with some gang members?
Am I a jerk for feeling this way?
Maybe.
//Knew three people well who died there that day
Thisbymaster
2012-02-05 04:40:01 PM
Limit the costs that lawyers can bill their clients, force the lawyers to work harder on less. You know, like every other industry right now.
blacksharpiemarker
2012-02-05 04:40:44 PM
The fault is all our own. As a collective group of citizens we need to push for legislation to cripple the corrupt insurance industry back to serving the people, not itself.
This industry has become a cancer, and the government is the only power strong enough to stop it.
ZAZ
2012-02-05 04:40:58 PM
mauricecano
:
Chrio's always take only 50% and inflate their fees accordingly.
= Chiropractors? Up here some chiropractors and lawyers went to prison a few years ago for insurance fraud. People injured in staged crashes would seek expensive treatment for hard to disprove injuries. The state cracked down after a grandmother died in a staged crash.
Under my state's law insurance companies can be ordered to pay triple damages if they refuse to settle a case where liability is clear. We have no-fault for minor personal injuries and a good rate of underinsured motorist coverage. I think we have fewer car accidents going to court when no pedestrians are involved. I don't have stats to back that up.
What makes the WTC cut excessive is the limited nature of the factual dispute and the large number of individual cases being merged. The lawyer did not have to go to court in each case and prove the whole chain of events behind 9/11, then repeat the job for the next client.
Krieghund
2012-02-05 04:42:16 PM
9/11 families and 9/11 first responders are not the same thing,
subby
.
Teen Wolf Blitzer
2012-02-05 04:42:22 PM
Well, NYC is a dangerous place. If they're lucky, one of their other family members might die resulting in another insurance payout, and hopefully that will be enough for them to retire early. Or at least satisfy their bloodlust.
lennavan
2012-02-05 04:43:09 PM
I don't see any screwing going on here whatsoever. They accepted a settlement and pissed away money on lawyers.
That said, this problem should have been solved by simply saying "if you can prove you were at ground zero we'll cover all of your medical expenses until you die."
And yes, I agree, we might possibly end up paying for a non 9/11 related medical bill. HOLY CRAP THAT WOULD BE HORRIFYING
culebra
2012-02-05 04:43:48 PM
Yes, but how many jobs did they create in doing so? I bet like, a brazillian.
FormlessOne
2012-02-05 04:45:21 PM
Reverend Monkeypants
:
When people who get jobs doing dangerous stuff sue because their jobs are dangerous it makes me wince.
There's a big difference between "reasonable risks associated with the job" and "the government lied to us while ordering us to respond to a national disaster without appropriate equipment or training." The first responders for the 9/11 attack received the latter, not the former, and so a lawsuit was necessary.
The fact that the attorneys who pushed the case are probably going to pocket $300 million (or more) of the $680 million settlement is just, once again, a kick in the ribs to those who serve.
Wyalt Derp
2012-02-05 04:46:29 PM
The other 2 are lucky, I'm surprised they're not screwing all 11.
Bazinga In My Pants
2012-02-05 04:47:17 PM
consciousNOT
:
Entitlements. God I hate that word.
/drtfa
This. A bunch of people were killed on one particular day. Whoop-dee-fricking-doo. Happens all the time in all sorts of modes... drunk drivers, blah blah blah.
/drtfae
Real Women Drink Akvavit
2012-02-05 04:47:33 PM
So those who did not sign on to the settlement agreement can bring their own actions, right? Also, doesn't that give them a better chance at a higher recovery?
These legal things are a mystery to me. I just know the legal theory of "don't get caught, dumbass" and adhere to it with nearly religious fervor.
Ken VeryBigLiar
2012-02-05 04:47:33 PM
blacksharpiemarker
:
The fault is all our own. As a collective group of citizens we need to push for legislation to cripple the corrupt insurance industry back to serving the people, not itself.
This industry has become a cancer, and the government is the only power strong enough to stop it.
Didn't read the part about how much the lawyers were taking? And don't mention how much insurers have paid out in death claims since virtually everyone working in the towers that day is a Work Comp claim. At about $250,000 a pop (from the titans of industry to the person scrubbing toilets) that day was a GIANT kick to the crotch for insurers.
/Not to mention life insurers
//Or Property losses...
brianbankerus
2012-02-05 04:47:43 PM
Single payer would make the whole lifelong sickness thingy irrelevant.
Can't pay for our first responders? Give me a break. They're the only heroes from the whole damn war.
/looking at you, marines
jaytkay
2012-02-05 04:53:17 PM
Weaver95
:
but are the bankers and wall street ok? I mean...we can't have anything happen to the important people, right?
God knows...we have to have our priorities straight!
Rest assured.
The fund paid out according to a person's worth to society.
It would be unkind to ask some family to give up its Connecticut mansion and private schools to subsidize the grocery bills of their black secretaries and Mexican busboys of questionable citizenship.
LawyersRock
2012-02-05 04:54:26 PM
In other news, Subby is screwing over his employer by collecting a paycheck. What a farking asshole he is. It's an outrage he should get paid for his work.
TravisBickle62
2012-02-05 04:54:54 PM
Damn, it must suck to get free money
Phil Moskowitz
2012-02-05 04:55:01 PM
consciousNOT
:
Entitlements. God I hate that word.
/drtfa
The PR firms treating you like pavlov's dogs. You're trained to hate the word liberal too.
jaytkay
2012-02-05 04:56:13 PM
brianbankerus
:
Single payer would make the whole lifelong sickness thingy irrelevant.
Why do you hate America and its layers of legal and insurance fees added onto the actual cost of health car? Are you Hitler?
rjakobi
2012-02-05 04:57:44 PM
They...forgot?
belhade
2012-02-05 04:58:00 PM
Well, here's one way to solve the situation...
Nordschleife
2012-02-05 04:58:41 PM
Wyalt Derp
:
The other 2 are lucky, I'm surprised they're not screwing all 11.
Ah, a math joke.
TravisBickle62
2012-02-05 05:00:11 PM
COUGH COUGH
I saw it happen live on television, where is my $100,000?
COUGH COUGH
generallyso
2012-02-05 05:00:52 PM
blacksharpiemarker
:
The fault is all our own. As a collective group of citizens we need to push for legislation to cripple the corrupt insurance industry back to serving the people, not itself.
This industry has become a cancer, and the government is the only power strong enough to stop it.
That works right up until the point that industry figures and government figures are the same people. We're already past that point.
Turbo Cojones
2012-02-05 05:00:52 PM
"His
CITY PAYOUT
"
Fark 'em until someone can prove to my satisfaction that the city was at fault for 9/11 and should pay damages.
In a fair world they would be suing the Saudis.
Guidette Frankentits
2012-02-05 05:02:52 PM
Pay the families in stocks of Halliburton, GE and all of the other war-profiteering companies.
It's a win-win-win
Karac
2012-02-05 05:04:26 PM
Reverend Monkeypants
:
When people who get jobs doing dangerous stuff sue because their jobs are dangerous it makes me wince.
Isn't this somehow like a police officer suing the city after he got shot in the line of duty during a standoff with some gang members?
When that police officer went through the academy, they probably mentioned the chance that he would get shot by a gangbanger. When he got to ground zero and asked if it was safe to breath the air, the city said it was nothing to worry about. Should he be forced to cover his medical costs that were a result of his employer not being able to realize that they should have been handing out respirators?
Honest Bender
2012-02-05 05:06:35 PM
What's so special about that other 2/11ths that they don't get screwed?
Tennozan
2012-02-05 05:08:25 PM
Laywers - out to fuMk people and play darts.
/ Boatload, ocean, drown.
// Repeat.
What about all the
schmucks
decent Americans that donated to help these folks?
They should get 25% of their donations back, plus undisclosed "fees".
TravisBickle62
2012-02-05 05:09:31 PM
First Responder - You Take Your Chances On Breathing The Air
CliChe Guevara
2012-02-05 05:10:40 PM
Ken VeryBigLiar
:
that day was a GIANT kick to the crotch for insurers.
Actually it wasn't, not even close. the number of people killed there was large for a single event, but was background noise compared to the number of normal daily claims handled in a country of a third of a billion people.
It didn't change their overall liability for claims that year by even 1%. It did mean they could use it to lobby against any kind of regulation they didn't like for a while and so to actually profit from it, and it always helped to raise some sympathy for an otherwise pretty unsympathetic industry, but it did not hurt actually them any.
Teen Wolf Blitzer
2012-02-05 05:11:21 PM
After the second plane hit the towers, I wonder how many of these plaintiffs looked to the sky and proclaimed, "Thank god! Christmas came 3 1/2 months early this year! Hawaii here I come."
Hrist
2012-02-05 05:11:36 PM
Karac
:
Reverend Monkeypants: When people who get jobs doing dangerous stuff sue because their jobs are dangerous it makes me wince.
Isn't this somehow like a police officer suing the city after he got shot in the line of duty during a standoff with some gang members?
When that police officer went through the academy, they probably mentioned the chance that he would get shot by a gangbanger. When he got to ground zero and asked if it was safe to breath the air, the city said it was nothing to worry about. Should he be forced to cover his medical costs that were a result of his employer not being able to realize that they should have been handing out respirators?
But see, most reasonable people weren't aware that breathing that dust could be dangerous. I don't think the city was gross negligent, but in general any situation where you're going to breathe in smoke and dust needs some kind of breathing assistance. This was particularly bad because of what was in the smoke, but I doubt many people on the ground at the time knew it was going to fark you up for life. Just like back in the day at Oak Ridge, most people didn't know that passing around all those graphite bricks would kick up graphite dust which would get lodged in your lungs and give you horrible cancer 40 years later. Now we know, but then we didn't. Sadly the cases range between, "Well, you can't PROVE you were in that department on that day at that hour, so we aren't responsible." to "I was a janitor there in the 1970s, quit after a month, and now I have a bad back. Pay me six million dollars."
CliChe Guevara
2012-02-05 05:11:48 PM
generallyso
:
This industry has become a cancer, and the government is the only power strong enough to stop it.
That works right up until the point that industry figures and government figures are the same people. We're already past that point.
THIS.
TravisBickle62
2012-02-05 05:12:47 PM
What did the Second Responders get?
It's all "FIRST RESPONDERS! OMG! FIRST RESPONDER!"
But the Second Responders got a box of Cracker Jack while the First Responders are raking in the cash ... and the Second Responders breathed the same freaking air ... First Responders are a bunch of opportunists.
Bob16
2012-02-05 05:13:46 PM
TravisBickle62
:
Damn, it must suck to get free money
So you don't think to highly of your family.
I wonder what they think of you.
buckler
2012-02-05 05:13:50 PM
TravisBickle62
:
Damn, it must suck to get free money
I'm guessing all of them would rather not have the money if they could have a refund on the price they paid to have it.
Amos Quito
2012-02-05 05:13:52 PM
Amos Quito
2012-02-05 05:16:35 PM
blacksharpiemarker
:
The fault is all our own. As a collective group of citizens we need to push for legislation to cripple the corrupt insurance industry back to serving the people, not itself.
This industry has become a cancer
, and the government is the only power strong enough to stop it.
Sorry, but cancer isn't covered under your policy.
coffee smells good
2012-02-05 05:16:47 PM
ZAZ
:
They signed onto division of a fixed pool of money. If some people got less than predicted, others must have more. Those with less get attention.
As for the costs and fees, the example in the NY Post article shows the law firm taking a 31% cut which may be grossly excessive for this case but is not at all unusual in personal injury lawsuits in general.
If you want to see a great example of a law firm screwing the victims out of their compensation do a little reading on how Erin Brockovich's law firm screwed the victims in the case that made her a celebrity.
Bob16
2012-02-05 05:17:44 PM
If i was a first responder who got lung disease Whitman would have to spend money a lot of money on security.
I'll bet she's like most repubs and doesn't give a shiat.
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