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(Some Guy)   Woman receives Facebook friend request from the man who raped her when she was 14 years old. She gets the hero tag for how she handled it   ( moxiebird.com) divider line
    More: Hero, rape victims, Facebook, electronic publishing, friend request  
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66167 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Feb 2012 at 10:49 AM (5 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-02-05 08:22:23 PM  
Comment directed at author, not victim, but how is it only one person has mentioned this line, "I'm reminded of just how prevalent the does-NO-really-mean-no? mindset it with American males." More?

It's pretty offensive, personally.

If you can't see why, just read this and tell me if it's offensive:

"I'm reminded of just how prevalent the does-NO-really-mean-no? mindset it with American black males."

\I am just making a point. No value judgments here other than that's a pretty shiatty thing to say.
 
2012-02-05 08:27:58 PM  

Voxper: I'm obligated to begin this post by saying that rape is bad bad bad and that rapists are bad bad people and should be jailed. (But raping them in jail is very funny, though.) So now that we've got that statement is out of the way...

I have one question for the peeps who think that rape victims are a special, extra-victimy species of super-ultra-mega-victim who should not be "blamed" by any expectation of adult behavior...

You must truly dislike women's self-defense courses, huh?

What does a women's self-defense course teach? They start by teaching women how to avoid bad situations. And we all know, that's wrong wrong horribly offensive "victim-blaming." And also, it's completely impossible for a woman to avoid being raped because everything is always 100% her attacker's fault and the onus lies 100% with him.

A woman's self-defense course also teaches a woman how to fight-off her attacker. And that's "victim-blaming!" Right? It reduces the blame on the rapist and is therefore bad bad bad and wrong wrong wrong.

Women's self-defense courses must be awful, horrible, rape-enabling, victim-blaming things, right? We should get rid of them, yes? Because they blame victims by suggesting that women can be empowered to increase the margins of their own safety. Damn those rape-supporting bastards!

Also, you must hate those little mace canisters on key-chains too. They blame victims by suggesting that women are capable of fighting back. And we all know it's simply impossible for a woman to do ANYTHING once she's in the process of being attacked. It's offensive to suggest that she might be able to do something about it, right? Get rid of the mace canisters because blame victims.

In the 1930s, my granny carried a teeny little pistol in her purse "just in case." So-- (gasp!) ZOMG VICTIM-BLAMER! My grandmother supported rape culture?! Whoa, Nelly...

Because we all know that there's absolutely nothing a woman can do to avoid being raped. Which is why we must focus 110% of all of our energies on teaching men it's wrong to rape. Anything other than that that is "victim-blaming" because, as we all know, rape victims are always mindless and passive.

Sure, you have enormous compassion for rape victims. But actually improve women's safety? You're not so big on that. You'd much rather score points against Teh Oppressive Patriarkeh than increase how much control women have over their own destinies.

...

But seriously, in college, I had a female friend; we are all indoctrinated in the whole "no means no" mantra and, yes, the men were taught "rape is bad" (but, gosh, men are all way too pro-rape to comprehend that message anyway, amirite?) But here's the thing: in our "diverse" society, there are sub-groups out there who don't exactly follow the white bourgeois snowflake script of "no means no" that ought to hold sway.

My female friend met a dude online. He was from one of those middle-eastern cultures which plays by different rules. So what do they do? They get drunk, naked and hop in the shower. And when he wanted to have sex with her, she said "no."

Golly, his hands were supposed to fly right-off of her. But they didn't! Uh oh...

So what then, my dears? What happens when focusing 110% of our efforts on "teaching men not to rape" fails? What happens when you hook-up with some dude from an actual real "rape culture" who doesn't realize that you only wanted to play a tease & denial game while drunk and naked? Or that you only wanted to see his penis and not actually touch it? What then?

Nothing, I guess. We can't ever "blame the victim." What happened to that bastard rapist? I don't know. I imagine he went back to Kurdistan and married 4 wives.

So, yeah, all of you who talk about "victim blaming" and "rape culture" and "no means no"? I really get the impression that you'd much rather weep over rape victims and fulminate against Teh Patriakeh than actually prevent a rape.

You love victims, sure. But that's not always the same thing as being compassionate.


Wow, that was a rabid rant of sound and fury signifying nothing to do with reality whatsoever.

For certain you have not seen the number of women in self defence classes.

/Took two myself
//Can't find a krav muga studio around here.
///You're a prick for blaming your friend for what a rapist did to her.
 
2012-02-05 08:29:04 PM  

AndreMA: PsiChi: 1.The crime, committed by a man, of forcing another person to have sexual intercourse with him, esp. by the threat or use of violence.

Get a new dictionary. Women can rape men, too.


Definitely not disputing that.
 
2012-02-05 08:30:03 PM  
Well, this thread sure enforces the notion of a strong link between misogyny and rape.
 
2012-02-05 08:30:27 PM  

KiplingKat872: Honest Bender: Honest question: What is it about sexual assault that makes it so much more mentally traumatic than regular assault?

The intimacy of the violation. What you nornally have complete control over is taken from you and you are invaded in the most personal way. Everything you thought you knew about human relations and your sense of inviolate self is chucked on it's ear.


I have to add...

It is ESPECIALLY damaging for young women. If you don't have a lot of sexual experience and that is one of your first or second sexual encounters, you begin to think that sex is SUPPOSED to be coercive, threatening, and even a little violent. Much of what I've said in this thread (about thinking that being groped in public was "normal", for example) can be directly tied to those early sexual encounters.

If a young woman (I know men can be raped, too, so please forgive the genders in this example) is dating a guy that she trusts and in the middle of a makeout session, she says, "No, please don't!" and he keeps on going, she will be confused. And then later? He tells her that he's sorry - that he just couldn't control himself because she was so beautiful (this is partially victim-blaming and partially flattery) - but that he just loves her so much he wanted to "make you mine", what is she going to think? She's going to think that "love" equals possessiveness, that being attractive and flirtatious is an invitation to men to have sex with her, that any sexual abuse is her fault, and that if a man really "loves" her, he will do whatever he can to have sex with her.

So what happens when she meets another guy? She's going to believe that if a man really "loves" her, he'll be possessive, aggressive, forceful, etc. So that's the type of guy she's going to choose, and this is going to continue unless/until she acknowledges that what happened to her was WRONG and starts to actually seek some counseling to help her escape from this negative pattern.
 
2012-02-05 08:42:58 PM  

Teen Wolf Blitzer: Bathia_Mapes: Guidette Frankentits: DreamSnipers: It seems like so many people are ignoring her age. She was 14! If she says "OMG yes, I want to do all of you!" It is rape. If she says 'No!" it is even worse. She said no.

Where are her 'attackers' ages in TFA?

Why is that relevant? She said NO.

Once more...NO MEANS NO!!!

In my experience, "no" usually means, "yes, just wait five minutes."


Straight from orange to ignore.
 
2012-02-05 08:49:00 PM  

morgantx: KiplingKat872: Honest Bender: Honest question: What is it about sexual assault that makes it so much more mentally traumatic than regular assault?

The intimacy of the violation. What you nornally have complete control over is taken from you and you are invaded in the most personal way. Everything you thought you knew about human relations and your sense of inviolate self is chucked on it's ear.

I have to add...

It is ESPECIALLY damaging for young women. If you don't have a lot of sexual experience and that is one of your first or second sexual encounters, you begin to think that sex is SUPPOSED to be coercive, threatening, and even a little violent. Much of what I've said in this thread (about thinking that being groped in public was "normal", for example) can be directly tied to those early sexual encounters.

If a young woman (I know men can be raped, too, so please forgive the genders in this example) is dating a guy that she trusts and in the middle of a makeout session, she says, "No, please don't!" and he keeps on going, she will be confused. And then later? He tells her that he's sorry - that he just couldn't control himself because she was so beautiful (this is partially victim-blaming and partially flattery) - but that he just loves her so much he wanted to "make you mine", what is she going to think? She's going to think that "love" equals possessiveness, that being attractive and flirtatious is an invitation to men to have sex with her, that any sexual abuse is her fault, and that if a man really "loves" her, he will do whatever he can to have sex with her.

So what happens when she meets another guy? She's going to believe that if a man really "loves" her, he'll be possessive, aggressive, forceful, etc. So that's the type of guy she's going to choose, and this is going to continue unless/until she acknowledges that what happened to her was WRONG and starts to actually seek some counseling to help her escape from this negative pattern.


Quite true, and not just for inexperienced women. I discussed the long term effects with another poster up the thread. Rape has its own form of PTSD called Rape Related PTSD. Many of the symptoms are similar to those experienced by combat veterans and disaster survivors. Hyperirritability, outbursts of rage, severe depression, avoidance if that which reminds them of the event, nightmares, etc.

Some have difficulty functioning sexually, or some may become hyper sexualized. In my experience is it the ability to be emotionally intimate that gets farked up. They can become trapped in an destructive cycle as you describe, or something less obvious but just as isolating. I am 40, and I have never been able to have a stable relationship for more than 18 months. I was chosing men who kept an emotional distance, and if they did not, I pulled stupid shiat to make sure they did. I even have trouble creating and maintaining friendships.

The real victim is one's sense of self worth. The shame and self hatred can cripple a person. 22 years later, I still struggle with the notion I deserve a good life.

As I said above, rape is the giant squid in the room. You can ignore it, but it has its tentacles wrapped in your preceptions and reactions and it takes a lot of work to disengage it, shove it in a box, and learn to live past it.
 
2012-02-05 08:53:42 PM  

mgshamster: namatad: I can take a body of evidence: memories, emails, notes, pictures, stories, things from multiple sources and I can apply different weightings based on truthiness. from there I can determine truth or false.

That right there is how the truth is uncovered; not by the testimony of a single witness.

It used to be that the testimony of a single witness was enough, because we believed that eyewitnesses were credible and that people's memories are generally accurate. But they're not; we get things wrong all the time. And there's a ton of evidence that shows it. From the Innocence Project, which uses DNA evidence to exonerate the falsely accused (most are rape cases in which they were misidentified by a single eyewitness), to "leading the witness" and coercions of confessions done by officers of the law, to implanted memories in therapy sessions (of which there was an explosion of cases in the 90s). It's why evidence beyond an eyewitness testimony is so important.


60 mins did a great series on this a few years ago
Link (new window)
the rape victim and the falsely accused rapist went on to write a book and lecture on the problems with eye witness testimony.

the science behind how eye witness testimony morphs is terrifying.
the number of innocent people in prison for crimes which they didnt commit is truly .... criminal.
the unwillingness of the courts and law enforcement to revisit possible wrongful convictions .... is just inhumane
 
2012-02-05 08:54:31 PM  

PsiChi: Teen Wolf Blitzer: Bathia_Mapes: Guidette Frankentits: DreamSnipers: It seems like so many people are ignoring her age. She was 14! If she says "OMG yes, I want to do all of you!" It is rape. If she says 'No!" it is even worse. She said no.

Where are her 'attackers' ages in TFA?

Why is that relevant? She said NO.

Once more...NO MEANS NO!!!

In my experience, "no" usually means, "yes, just wait five minutes."

Straight from orange to ignore.



Ignoring every other story the past 800 posts with anecdotes illustrating just what TWB posted? Alrighty, then.
 
2012-02-05 08:56:39 PM  

Stavroginska: Legally, in the U.S. it was statutory Rape.


Age of consent in the majority of the US is 16. There used to be some states that went as low as 14 just a few years back, but now it's 16 or 17 in most states, with a few going as high as 18.
 
2012-02-05 08:58:23 PM  
KiplingKat872:

How did I blame her? I was the first person she came to when it happened and I'm the one who dealt with her. She credits me for helping her. Where do I say it's her fault? "No means no" is an inadequate joke and completely naive because it's not about protecting women. It's mainly about blaming 'Teh Patriarkeh'.

So what happens when "teaching men not to rape" doesn't work because you're drunk and naked in the shower with a drunk, naked stranger from an actual real honest-to-Allah "rape culture" where a woman's "no" is a joke? What then?

Nothing at all? All we need to do is teach men "no means no" and "rape is bad" and "take back the night" and everything will be double-rainbows and moonbeams and sparkle-ponies dancing down the happy yellow-brick road? Puh-lease.
 
2012-02-05 08:58:34 PM  

clyph: If you get shiatfaced and poke a tiger with a stick, whose fault is it if you get bit?


So, someone taught you that it's ok to rape a person if they are really high, can't feel it, or won't remember it? Let me guess, it was an older relative that taught you this, and you are a heavy sleeper.
 
2012-02-05 09:00:10 PM  
Ok, serious question.

Why is rape worse than, say, a violent mugging?

This woman FTFA is still severely screwed up over it 10 years later. Many rape victims cope with drugs and/or alcohol. There are all sorts of groups set up for rape counseling etc.

What makes it so much more traumatic than some other violent physical crime? Getting the fark beaten out of you in a dark alley, for example.

Does the reaction of society to rape make it even more traumatic for the victim? Overreaction? Both situations undoubtedly suck and shouldn't happen to anyone, but I just can't see the difference between the two that would cause such a huge gap in the emotional consequences.

Am I disqualified from understanding because I am a male?

Personally, if I had to choose between a savage beating and a rapin', I'd go with the rapin. I think that most women would choose the savage beating though. I just can't figure out why.
 
2012-02-05 09:01:11 PM  
Holy Cow, 820 comments and it is still on topic- is that an internet record or something?
 
2012-02-05 09:01:16 PM  

KiplingKat872: Quite true, and not just for inexperienced women. I discussed the long term effects with another poster up the thread. Rape has its own form of PTSD called Rape Related PTSD. Many of the symptoms are similar to those experienced by combat veterans and disaster survivors. Hyperirritability, outbursts of rage, severe depression, avoidance if that which reminds them of the event, nightmares, etc.

Some have difficulty functioning sexually, or some may become hyper sexualized. In my experience is it the ability to be emotionally intimate that gets farked up. They can become trapped in an destructive cycle as you describe, or something less obvious but just as isolating. I am 40, and I have never been able to have a stable relationship for more than 18 months. I was chosing men who kept an emotional distance, and if they did not, I pulled stupid shiat to make sure they did. I even have trouble creating and maintaining friendships.

The real victim is one's sense of self worth. The shame and self hatred can cripple a person. 22 years later, I still struggle with the notion I deserve a good life.

As I said above, rape is the giant squid in the room. You can ignore it, but it has its tentacles wrapped in your preceptions and reactions and it takes a lot of work to disengage it, shove it in a box, and learn to live past it.


I am sorry for your experiences. :(

I remember two things that I thought were unrelated to my rape experiences. One was the way that I always react to medical exams (like Pap smears & vaginal exams). I freak out. Badly. Depending on the doctor, I'll pass out and/or vomit. I never knew why, and then when I was pregnant with my second child and had a midwife, I started to tense up & get nervous. She stopped the exam and gently asked, "Were you sexually abused?" I was shocked. I didn't know that my sexual abuse would cause my medical anxiety. After that (and after counseling), I now tell ALL of my medical care providers about the abuse so that they know to be gentle and that it may take me a little extra time to relax and get comfortable. Some of my doctors give me tranquilizers to take before my exams.

The other thing was...

I was dating this guy and we were very serious about one another. We had been sexually active for a couple of months with no noticeable problems. And then for some strange reason, I remember that he was on top of me and we were going at it, and then he growled. Not in a bad way - just one of those little "pleasure growls". And without even thinking about it, I started kicking and screaming and crying. BECAUSE he knew my history, he immediately got off, stopped, and backed away until I calmed down enough to want to be held, and then he just held me while I cried. He made sure NEVER to make that little growling noise again, though!

It's unusual what will trigger those incidents, though. I was never raped by a doctor, so there's no real reason why I should freak out over medical exams! But I am. And I've been able to do all sorts of things sexually with no problem, but that ONE little noise will still just set me off. I was raped for the first time when I was 12, and it continued on until I was about 18. At 18, I enlisted in the Air Force, and when I completed my Confidence Course and my Field Training Exercise, I made a decision right then that if I could do THAT (when I didn't think I could), I could do anything. And I dumped my abusive boyfriend and I never went back to those bad relationships again.

But that was 13 years ago, and I still have those problems with doctors. (Haven't had anybody do the growl thing in about 10 years, so I don't know if that would still affect me.) Even when you "recover", it's always there.
 
2012-02-05 09:02:26 PM  

Silly Jesus: Ok, serious question.

Why is rape worse than, say, a violent mugging?

This woman FTFA is still severely screwed up over it 10 years later. Many rape victims cope with drugs and/or alcohol. There are all sorts of groups set up for rape counseling etc.

What makes it so much more traumatic than some other violent physical crime? Getting the fark beaten out of you in a dark alley, for example.

Does the reaction of society to rape make it even more traumatic for the victim? Overreaction? Both situations undoubtedly suck and shouldn't happen to anyone, but I just can't see the difference between the two that would cause such a huge gap in the emotional consequences.

Am I disqualified from understanding because I am a male?

Personally, if I had to choose between a savage beating and a rapin', I'd go with the rapin. I think that most women would choose the savage beating though. I just can't figure out why.


A couple people have just explained this, please read up the thread.
 
2012-02-05 09:03:58 PM  

ExperianScaresCthulhu: PsiChi: Teen Wolf Blitzer: Bathia_Mapes: Guidette Frankentits: DreamSnipers: It seems like so many people are ignoring her age. She was 14! If she says "OMG yes, I want to do all of you!" It is rape. If she says 'No!" it is even worse. She said no.

Where are her 'attackers' ages in TFA?

Why is that relevant? She said NO.

Once more...NO MEANS NO!!!

In my experience, "no" usually means, "yes, just wait five minutes."

Straight from orange to ignore.


Ignoring every other story the past 800 posts with anecdotes illustrating just what TWB posted? Alrighty, then.


He said a woman tells him "no," but he keeps on going. I'm not going to continue to read what a person like that has to say.
 
2012-02-05 09:07:41 PM  

ExperianScaresCthulhu: theurbanpagan: serial_crusher: serial_crusher: I wonder how often it happens to men also?

ftfm

I don't know. I know my husband hasn't had anything like this happen to him. Nor my brother. I'll ask my friends the next time I see them. I'd be interested to know.

....why do you think he would tell you?


I assume because we've been together for a very long time and well we're honest with each other. As for friends, I don't know if they would tell me or not. I can ask though right?
 
2012-02-05 09:12:00 PM  

Silly Jesus: Ok, serious question.

Why is rape worse than, say, a violent mugging?

This woman FTFA is still severely screwed up over it 10 years later. Many rape victims cope with drugs and/or alcohol. There are all sorts of groups set up for rape counseling etc.

What makes it so much more traumatic than some other violent physical crime? Getting the fark beaten out of you in a dark alley, for example.

Does the reaction of society to rape make it even more traumatic for the victim? Overreaction? Both situations undoubtedly suck and shouldn't happen to anyone, but I just can't see the difference between the two that would cause such a huge gap in the emotional consequences.

Am I disqualified from understanding because I am a male?

Personally, if I had to choose between a savage beating and a rapin', I'd go with the rapin. I think that most women would choose the savage beating though. I just can't figure out why.


MANY different factors, but you are NOT disqualified from understanding because you are male. The truth is that for all the sympathy I have for female rape victims, I have even more sympathy for male rape victims, because they have a MUCH harder time being believed and they tend to get a lot less sympathy, compassion, support, and recovery resources than women do. A lot of times, they have to go through their recovery all alone.

But as I said in my previous post, it depends a lot on the person. For a LOT of people, sex is something that is intrinsically connected with their emotional and mental condition. It is connected to their identity, their values, their moral code, their religious identity, their social status, and a whole SLEW of other identifying factors.

I think that victims of violent crime (ANY violent crime) should have support and compassion and RESOURCES available, because ANY victim can become traumatized as a result of the violence.

BUT...

Below are a FEW of the (thousands!) of reactions a person may have to being raped:

*I am a slut.
*I deserved what happened to me.
*He only did it because he loved me.
*I brought this on myself.
*I'm going to hell.
*Everyone is going to make fun of me.
*Nobody would ever believe me.
*Nothing will ever happen to him.
*Everybody would laugh at me if I told them the truth.

True story:
In a small town in the Texas panhandle, a young woman (about 16 or 17, if I recall correctly) was brutally raped by three of her high school football players. We're not talking about miscommunication - this was "rape rape". The woman had bruises, torn clothing, etc. She went to her local cops. The cops said, "We think you're lying. We've heard about you. You were asking for it," and turned the woman away. The woman then had her friend drive her TWO HOURS to Amarillo where she went to the local hospital and DEMANDED that they do a rape kit on her. Technically, Amarillo didn't have jurisdiction over the crime, although the nurses went ahead and gathered the evidence. They called the local cops who couldn't really do anything except offer to assist, and their offer was DENIED by her local sheriff. So one of the nurses contacted the press (with the victim's consent, of course) and told the story to them. After a lot of BAD publicity for her hometown, the sheriff finally decided to graciously accept assistance from Amarillo and refer the case to the District Attorney for prosecution.

But think about that for a moment... Think about the level of courage and bravery that young woman had. After being DENIED by the local cops, she approached a friend for assistance, drove to a larger city, and DEMANDED that evidence be collected. And this was VERY soon after that rape. How many other people in a similar situation would simply go home, shower off all the evidence, and try to forget it?
 
2012-02-05 09:12:17 PM  

Voxper: KiplingKat872:

How did I blame her? I was the first person she came to when it happened and I'm the one who dealt with her. She credits me for helping her. Where do I say it's her fault? "No means no" is an inadequate joke and completely naive because it's not about protecting women. It's mainly about blaming 'Teh Patriarkeh'.

So what happens when "teaching men not to rape" doesn't work because you're drunk and naked in the shower with a drunk, naked stranger from an actual real honest-to-Allah "rape culture" where a woman's "no" is a joke? What then?

Nothing at all? All we need to do is teach men "no means no" and "rape is bad" and "take back the night" and everything will be double-rainbows and moonbeams and sparkle-ponies dancing down the happy yellow-brick road? Puh-lease.


Sure sounded like you were blaming her, railing against a culture of willing rape victimhood that does not exist. Blaming lots of people accept American rapists.

We have tons of movies that try to convey the horrors of war. How many actually deal with the realistic after affects if rape and sexual abuse? It's just not as important to make that understanding a cultural staple.

And most feminist are very much in favor of self defence courses. No one who knows what rape is wants anyone, even their worst enemy, to go through that.
 
2012-02-05 09:14:55 PM  

ExperianScaresCthulhu: PsiChi: Teen Wolf Blitzer: Bathia_Mapes: Guidette Frankentits: DreamSnipers: It seems like so many people are ignoring her age. She was 14! If she says "OMG yes, I want to do all of you!" It is rape. If she says 'No!" it is even worse. She said no.

Where are her 'attackers' ages in TFA?

Why is that relevant? She said NO.

Once more...NO MEANS NO!!!

In my experience, "no" usually means, "yes, just wait five minutes."

Straight from orange to ignore.


Ignoring every other story the past 800 posts with anecdotes illustrating just what TWB posted? Alrighty, then.


PsiChi has a history of ignoring evidence that doesn't match up with her beliefs. Why would this time be any different?
 
2012-02-05 09:19:14 PM  

KiplingKat872: The real victim is one's sense of self worth. The shame and self hatred can cripple a person. 22 years later, I still struggle with the notion I deserve a good life.

As I said above, rape is the giant squid in the room. You can ignore it, but it has its tentacles wrapped in your preceptions and reactions and it takes a lot of work to disengage it, shove it in a box, and learn to live past it.


This is something which I discussed with my therapist. to try to get a better understanding of how people record/deal/move on from rape. My room mate at the time had been a rape victim and I had little to no real understanding. I still dont. I think it is like a panic attack, if you have never had one, you have no idea. If you have never been raped, it is pretty impossible to imagine. (I think the scene in a girl with the dragon tattoo did a terrifying job at getting me as close to understand as possible, but still not the same thing.

the question which I seem to get stuck on is why not? why isnt reporting this person part of the final process? I understand WHY in the beginning it is impossible. you are shellshocked. you are in survival mode. run and hide and get safe mode. the analogy to war PTSD is obivous. I guess the trap for me is the logical side of the brain. the part which is screaming "YOUR RAPIST IS STILL OUT THERE".

and that is the trap, PTSD is all about the non-logical side of the brain. which is why all the PTSD treatment which I have read about is about connecting the two sides and what not ....

anyways ...
I understand that I will never understand (or hope that I never will).

thank you and all the other victims for being able to reach out and share with us.
It is the ONLY way that we can ever come to an understanding, that we can try to stomp out the "blame the victim" tards, push for changes in the laws to protect the victims and the accused (at least until they are convicted?).
the schools turning a blind eye? wtf is that.
the churches being active supporters of rapists? well that is an old story

but at least by witnessing and hearing these stories, there is hope that when we are confronted by someone we know, we wont react like so many asshats. "what were you wearing?" "where were you?" "were you drinking?" and so many other retarded comments ....

some day I will have to have this conversation with someone very close to me who was raped. I know that she was. but that is all that I know. This is what I get for discussing "everyone knows someone who was raped. they just dont know it"


I would suggest it as an exercise for people who dont know someone who was raped, but ... my guess is that few rape victims would ever want to actually talk to them about the horrors that they went through ....

sigh
 
2012-02-05 09:21:25 PM  

PsiChi: ExperianScaresCthulhu: PsiChi: Teen Wolf Blitzer: Bathia_Mapes: Guidette Frankentits: DreamSnipers: It seems like so many people are ignoring her age. She was 14! If she says "OMG yes, I want to do all of you!" It is rape. If she says 'No!" it is even worse. She said no.

Where are her 'attackers' ages in TFA?

Why is that relevant? She said NO.

Once more...NO MEANS NO!!!

In my experience, "no" usually means, "yes, just wait five minutes."

Straight from orange to ignore.


Ignoring every other story the past 800 posts with anecdotes illustrating just what TWB posted? Alrighty, then.

He said a woman tells him "no," but he keeps on going. I'm not going to continue to read what a person like that has to say.


Why did you feel the need to announce that? If you want to do the echo chamber thing I suppose it's your right, but most people are ashamed of mental weakness and you should be too.
 
2012-02-05 09:24:52 PM  
I would like to add to morgantx comments about male rape victims. She is right, they have a much harder time coming forward and so the numbers are just starting to be known. It is the same violation, but the social pressures on men make it harder for them to come to grips with it.

First is the "real men are not victimized that way" mindset that shames them into silence. If they were raped by a woman, they may have the additional embarassment of not being to fight them off/control the situation despite being the "bigger and stronger male." If they were raped by a man, their bodies automatic physical response may make them call their entire sexual identity into question.

The gay community has it worse, the cops attitude frequently being, "Well you're gay, so you asked for it." A couple years ago one young man who tried to report his rape was turned away by the LAPD after being told, "Gay men can't be raped."

There is a good website, 1in6.org, that is a resource for male survivors of sexual abuse and assault.
 
2012-02-05 09:27:40 PM  

anotar: Holy Cow, 820 comments and it is still on topic- is that an internet record or something?


I'm a little shocked that in 847 comments, we've all managed to remain fairly civil. Not saying we haven't had a couple of heated debates, but for the most part this thread has been largely troll-free.

What's up, Fark? Are we all turning into mature adults all of a sudden?
 
2012-02-05 09:30:04 PM  

morgantx: anotar: Holy Cow, 820 comments and it is still on topic- is that an internet record or something?

I'm a little shocked that in 847 comments, we've all managed to remain fairly civil. Not saying we haven't had a couple of heated debates, but for the most part this thread has been largely troll-free.

What's up, Fark? Are we all turning into mature adults all of a sudden?


All the trolls are off watching the superbowl. All that's left are people who want to talk about this subject. As it's a subject with very inconsistent research results and statistics, there ends up being a lot of different opinions; more so in that it's a subject which invokes a strong emotional reaction.

/We need more accurate results.
 
2012-02-05 09:30:33 PM  
KiplingKat872 : And most feminist are very much in favor of self defence courses.

But isn't that "victim blaming"?

Self-defense means that a woman can do something when she's being attacked. That's victim-blaming! Right? Isn't it?

Saying that a woman can affect whether or not an attempted rape turns into a completed rape? Isn't that (GASP) taking some teeny amount of the focus away from the rapists who are 100% to blame for everything that happens?

Surely self-defense courses are way worse than anything I've said so far?
 
2012-02-05 09:31:00 PM  

mgshamster: morgantx: anotar: Holy Cow, 820 comments and it is still on topic- is that an internet record or something?

I'm a little shocked that in 847 comments, we've all managed to remain fairly civil. Not saying we haven't had a couple of heated debates, but for the most part this thread has been largely troll-free.

What's up, Fark? Are we all turning into mature adults all of a sudden?

All the trolls are off watching the superbowl. All that's left are people who want to talk about this subject. As it's a subject with very inconsistent research results and statistics, there ends up being a lot of different opinions; more so in that it's a subject which invokes a strong emotional reaction.

/We need more accurate results.


This has been one of the most pleasant days on Fark in a LONG time!
 
2012-02-05 09:37:20 PM  

morgantx: KiplingKat872: Quite true, and not just for inexperienced women. I discussed the long term effects with another poster up the thread. Rape has its own form of PTSD called Rape Related PTSD. Many of the symptoms are similar to those experienced by combat veterans and disaster survivors. Hyperirritability, outbursts of rage, severe depression, avoidance if that which reminds them of the event, nightmares, etc.

Some have difficulty functioning sexually, or some may become hyper sexualized. In my experience is it the ability to be emotionally intimate that gets farked up. They can become trapped in an destructive cycle as you describe, or something less obvious but just as isolating. I am 40, and I have never been able to have a stable relationship for more than 18 months. I was chosing men who kept an emotional distance, and if they did not, I pulled stupid shiat to make sure they did. I even have trouble creating and maintaining friendships.

The real victim is one's sense of self worth. The shame and self hatred can cripple a person. 22 years later, I still struggle with the notion I deserve a good life.

As I said above, rape is the giant squid in the room. You can ignore it, but it has its tentacles wrapped in your preceptions and reactions and it takes a lot of work to disengage it, shove it in a box, and learn to live past it.

I am sorry for your experiences. :(

I remember two things that I thought were unrelated to my rape experiences. One was the way that I always react to medical exams (like Pap smears & vaginal exams). I freak out. Badly. Depending on the doctor, I'll pass out and/or vomit. I never knew why, and then when I was pregnant with my second child and had a midwife, I started to tense up & get nervous. She stopped the exam and gently asked, "Were you sexually abused?" I was shocked. I didn't know that my sexual abuse would cause my medical anxiety. After that (and after counseling), I now tell ALL of my medical care providers about the abuse so that they know to be gentle and that it may take me a little extra time to relax and get comfortable. Some of my doctors give me tranquilizers to take before my exams.

The other thing was...

I was dating this guy and we were very serious about one another. We had been sexually active for a couple of months with no noticeable problems. And then for some strange reason, I remember that he was on top of me and we were going at it, and then he growled. Not in a bad way - just one of those little "pleasure growls". And without even thinking about it, I started kicking and screaming and crying. BECAUSE he knew my history, he immediately got off, stopped, and backed away until I calmed down enough to want to be held, and then he just held me while I cried. He made sure NEVER to make that little growling noise again, though!

It's unusual what will trigger those incidents, though. I was never raped by a doctor, so there's no real reason why I should freak out over medical exams! But I am. And I've been able to do all sorts of things sexually with no problem, but that ONE little noise will still just set me off. I was raped for the first time when I was 12, and it continued on until I was about 18. At 18, I enlisted in the Air Force, and when I completed my Confidence Course and my Field Training Exercise, I made a decision right then that if I could do THAT (when I didn't think I could), I could do anything. And I dumped my abusive boyfriend and I never went back to those bad relationships again.

But that was 13 years ago, and I still have those problems with doctors. (Haven't had anybody do the growl thing in about 10 years, so I don't know if that would still affect me.) Even when you "recover", it's always there.


Oh gods. That you had to live with it so long. I am so glad you found the strength to live through that and then live beyond it.

Thank you for sharing your experiences. That was very brave of you. Yes everyone has their own triggers, little residual...things that haunt them.

I hate not being listened to. It's the quickest way to send my temper through the roof. I though it was random pet peeve until in therapy, in my 30's, I was able to link it to the fact that I was screaming at him to stop while he looked through me, like I was not even there. Not listening.
 
2012-02-05 09:38:35 PM  

morgantx: Honest Bender: Honest question: What is it about sexual assault that makes it so much more mentally traumatic than regular assault?

Well, for one thing, most people are willing and able to report regular assaults and have their assailant prosecuted and punished. PROVING sexual assault can be challenging, so in many cases, sexual abuse victims never receive the closure that can come from knowing that justice has been served.

But for another thing, sexual violation is usually much more personal and intimate than physical violation. A big part of this does come from our culture. We teach from an early age that sex is supposed to be practiced within the confines of a loving, monogamous, committed relationship, and our culture confirms and reinforces the idea that sex is a very important (some even say SACRED) act. Even if you don't have that opinion personally, that is the prevailing perspective in our culture, so it's bound to have an influence. You see, if somebody punches me in the face, they are only hurting ME. But if somebody rapes me, they are hurting me AND my present/future spouse/committed partner.

And incidentally, it's not at all uncommon for rape victims to end up broken up from the guy they were dating at the time. Part of this may be a reaction on the part of the rape victim to the trauma, and part of it may be a reaction by the boyfriend to knowing that their girlfriend was violated like that. For some men, it can be very difficult to overcome the "image" of that event and to be intimate with their woman again.

That being said, different people react differently to rape AND to assault. What is more traumatic is often in the eye of the survivor.

I've been raped and I've been cut open for a c-section against my will. To ME, the c-section was more traumatic. The rape left no visible scars and no lasting "evidence", so in time I was able to just stop thinking about it. But that c-section left scars that will never heal and a child. Every time I get out ...


Thank you for this explanation. It's the nearest to a complete answer to my question (why is sexual assault worse than other physical assaults) that I've seen in the many times and places I've asked it.

You touched on it, but I still think that a great deal of the trauma that results from a sexual assault is imposed unwittingly and unknowingly by society. If society reacted to a sexual assault in the exact same way that they do to any other physical assault I think that a lot of the negative psychological impact would be tempered, if not disappear altogether. Even if a woman doesn't feel like it's the end of their life, they are confronted with the expectation of that emotion by counselors, friends and family....

"Oh, that's horrible, but this isn't the end of your life." - Maybe the victim hadn't thought that this could be life ending until that statement.

"You'll feel traumatized for a long time and may never get over this, but I'm here to help you with it." - The victim might think that this is how it's supposed to be.

Does that make any sense? Could we be talking victims into the trauma through subtle suggestion about how they SHOULD feel?
 
2012-02-05 09:38:43 PM  

KiplingKat872: ...and I had a peeping tom neighbor who I caught taking a pic of me....

...while in sweats, hair pulled back, no make up, drinking a wine cooler, watching Babylon 5.

I called the cops, but seriously, WTF?


that sounds seriously hot
 
2012-02-05 09:39:31 PM  

Voxper: KiplingKat872 : And most feminist are very much in favor of self defence courses.

But isn't that "victim blaming"?

Self-defense means that a woman can do something when she's being attacked. That's victim-blaming! Right? Isn't it?

Saying that a woman can affect whether or not an attempted rape turns into a completed rape? Isn't that (GASP) taking some teeny amount of the focus away from the rapists who are 100% to blame for everything that happens?

Surely self-defense courses are way worse than anything I've said so far?


...I don't even know what you are getting at, you make so little sense, so I'm just going to ignore you now.
 
2012-02-05 09:44:08 PM  

morgantx: I'm a little shocked that in 847 comments, we've all managed to remain fairly civil.


The fark are you talking about? KiplingKat872 and several others have been shiating all over this thread with their man hate and obliviousness to both the facts of TFA and reality itself.

However, despite those folks, the thread has been fairly good.
 
2012-02-05 09:44:29 PM  

Silly Jesus: morgantx: Honest Bender: Honest question: What is it about sexual assault that makes it so much more mentally traumatic than regular assault?

Well, for one thing, most people are willing and able to report regular assaults and have their assailant prosecuted and punished. PROVING sexual assault can be challenging, so in many cases, sexual abuse victims never receive the closure that can come from knowing that justice has been served.

But for another thing, sexual violation is usually much more personal and intimate than physical violation. A big part of this does come from our culture. We teach from an early age that sex is supposed to be practiced within the confines of a loving, monogamous, committed relationship, and our culture confirms and reinforces the idea that sex is a very important (some even say SACRED) act. Even if you don't have that opinion personally, that is the prevailing perspective in our culture, so it's bound to have an influence. You see, if somebody punches me in the face, they are only hurting ME. But if somebody rapes me, they are hurting me AND my present/future spouse/committed partner.

And incidentally, it's not at all uncommon for rape victims to end up broken up from the guy they were dating at the time. Part of this may be a reaction on the part of the rape victim to the trauma, and part of it may be a reaction by the boyfriend to knowing that their girlfriend was violated like that. For some men, it can be very difficult to overcome the "image" of that event and to be intimate with their woman again.

That being said, different people react differently to rape AND to assault. What is more traumatic is often in the eye of the survivor.

I've been raped and I've been cut open for a c-section against my will. To ME, the c-section was more traumatic. The rape left no visible scars and no lasting "evidence", so in time I was able to just stop thinking about it. But that c-section left scars that will never heal and a child. Every time I get out ...

Thank you for this explanation. It's the nearest to a complete answer to my question (why is sexual assault worse than other physical assaults) that I've seen in the many times and places I've asked it.

You touched on it, but I still think that a great deal of the trauma that results from a sexual assault is imposed unwittingly and unknowingly by society. If society reacted to a sexual assault in the exact same way that they do to any other physical assault I think that a lot of the negative psychological impact would be tempered, if not disappear altogether. Even if a woman doesn't feel like it's the end of their life, they are confronted with the expectation of that emotion by counselors, friends and family....

"Oh, that's horrible, but this isn't the end of your life." - Maybe the victim hadn't thought that this could be life ending until that statement.

"You'll feel traumatized for a long time and may never get over this, but I'm here to help you with it." - The victim might think that this is how it's supposed to be.

Does that make any sense? Could we be talking victims into the trauma through subtle suggestion about how they SHOULD feel?


Thank you for cherry picking the answer you wanted to hear rather than reading what anyone else had to say.

How society reacts is a a big problem, but if you think rape is the exact same experience as being punched in the face or jumped behind a bar, you're just willfully ignorant.
 
2012-02-05 09:46:48 PM  

KiplingKat872: ...and I had a peeping tom neighbor who I caught taking a pic of me....

...while in sweats, hair pulled back, no make up, drinking a wine cooler, watching Babylon 5.

I called the cops, but seriously, WTF?


I don't mean to doubt your attractiveness, but I find it hard to believe that he would be watching you, not Babylon 5
 
2012-02-05 09:47:54 PM  

KiplingKat872: Silly Jesus: morgantx: Honest Bender: Honest question: What is it about sexual assault that makes it so much more mentally traumatic than regular assault?

Well, for one thing, most people are willing and able to report regular assaults and have their assailant prosecuted and punished. PROVING sexual assault can be challenging, so in many cases, sexual abuse victims never receive the closure that can come from knowing that justice has been served.

But for another thing, sexual violation is usually much more personal and intimate than physical violation. A big part of this does come from our culture. We teach from an early age that sex is supposed to be practiced within the confines of a loving, monogamous, committed relationship, and our culture confirms and reinforces the idea that sex is a very important (some even say SACRED) act. Even if you don't have that opinion personally, that is the prevailing perspective in our culture, so it's bound to have an influence. You see, if somebody punches me in the face, they are only hurting ME. But if somebody rapes me, they are hurting me AND my present/future spouse/committed partner.

And incidentally, it's not at all uncommon for rape victims to end up broken up from the guy they were dating at the time. Part of this may be a reaction on the part of the rape victim to the trauma, and part of it may be a reaction by the boyfriend to knowing that their girlfriend was violated like that. For some men, it can be very difficult to overcome the "image" of that event and to be intimate with their woman again.

That being said, different people react differently to rape AND to assault. What is more traumatic is often in the eye of the survivor.

I've been raped and I've been cut open for a c-section against my will. To ME, the c-section was more traumatic. The rape left no visible scars and no lasting "evidence", so in time I was able to just stop thinking about it. But that c-section left scars that will never heal and a child. Every time I get out ...

Thank you for this explanation. It's the nearest to a complete answer to my question (why is sexual assault worse than other physical assaults) that I've seen in the many times and places I've asked it.

You touched on it, but I still think that a great deal of the trauma that results from a sexual assault is imposed unwittingly and unknowingly by society. If society reacted to a sexual assault in the exact same way that they do to any other physical assault I think that a lot of the negative psychological impact would be tempered, if not disappear altogether. Even if a woman doesn't feel like it's the end of their life, they are confronted with the expectation of that emotion by counselors, friends and family....

"Oh, that's horrible, but this isn't the end of your life." - Maybe the victim hadn't thought that this could be life ending until that statement.

"You'll feel traumatized for a long time and may never get over this, but I'm here to help you with it." - The victim might think that this is how it's supposed to be.

Does that make any sense? Could we be talking victims into the trauma through subtle suggestion about how they SHOULD feel?

Thank you for cherry picking the answer you wanted to hear rather than reading what anyone else had to say.

How society reacts is a a big problem, but if you think rape is the exact same experience as being punched in the face or jumped behind a bar, you're just willfully ignorant.


And you do not get to tell anyone who has been through that kind of trauna "how they are supposed to feel."

No one has that right.

Would you tell a combat veteran how he or she is "supposed to feel?" The military keeps trying, which is why they have such a horrendous rate of suicide.
 
2012-02-05 09:50:49 PM  

Honest Bender: morgantx: I'm a little shocked that in 847 comments, we've all managed to remain fairly civil.

The fark are you talking about? KiplingKat872 and several others have been shiating all over this thread with their man hate and obliviousness to both the facts of TFA and reality itself.

However, despite those folks, the thread has been fairly good.


Please point to where I have expressed "man hate" And calling you personally out for being an idiot is not "man hate" You are not all men.
 
2012-02-05 09:55:35 PM  
..I don't even know what you are getting at,

Kipling? I don't know how it's possible to decry "victim blaming" when someone lightly implies that it's possible for a woman to look-out for herself a bit better, but have no apparent problem when a self-defense course openly says the same message.
 
2012-02-05 09:56:32 PM  

KiplingKat872: Silly Jesus: morgantx: Honest Bender: Honest question: What is it about sexual assault that makes it so much more mentally traumatic than regular assault?

Well, for one thing, most people are willing and able to report regular assaults and have their assailant prosecuted and punished. PROVING sexual assault can be challenging, so in many cases, sexual abuse victims never receive the closure that can come from knowing that justice has been served.

But for another thing, sexual violation is usually much more personal and intimate than physical violation. A big part of this does come from our culture. We teach from an early age that sex is supposed to be practiced within the confines of a loving, monogamous, committed relationship, and our culture confirms and reinforces the idea that sex is a very important (some even say SACRED) act. Even if you don't have that opinion personally, that is the prevailing perspective in our culture, so it's bound to have an influence. You see, if somebody punches me in the face, they are only hurting ME. But if somebody rapes me, they are hurting me AND my present/future spouse/committed partner.

And incidentally, it's not at all uncommon for rape victims to end up broken up from the guy they were dating at the time. Part of this may be a reaction on the part of the rape victim to the trauma, and part of it may be a reaction by the boyfriend to knowing that their girlfriend was violated like that. For some men, it can be very difficult to overcome the "image" of that event and to be intimate with their woman again.

That being said, different people react differently to rape AND to assault. What is more traumatic is often in the eye of the survivor.

I've been raped and I've been cut open for a c-section against my will. To ME, the c-section was more traumatic. The rape left no visible scars and no lasting "evidence", so in time I was able to just stop thinking about it. But that c-section left scars that will never heal and a child ...


Talk about cherry picking what you want to hear...sheesh.
 
2012-02-05 10:01:03 PM  

Voxper: Kipling? I don't know how it's possible to decry "victim blaming" when someone lightly implies that it's possible for a woman to look-out for herself a bit better, but have no apparent problem when a self-defense course openly says the same message.


Look - it is a gendered topic, accept it and move on.
 
2012-02-05 10:09:37 PM  

Silly Jesus: KiplingKat872: Silly Jesus: morgantx: Honest Bender: Honest question: What is it about sexual assault that makes it so much more mentally traumatic than regular assault?

Well, for one thing, most people are willing and able to report regular assaults and have their assailant prosecuted and punished. PROVING sexual assault can be challenging, so in many cases, sexual abuse victims never receive the closure that can come from knowing that justice has been served.

But for another thing, sexual violation is usually much more personal and intimate than physical violation. A big part of this does come from our culture. We teach from an early age that sex is supposed to be practiced within the confines of a loving, monogamous, committed relationship, and our culture confirms and reinforces the idea that sex is a very important (some even say SACRED) act. Even if you don't have that opinion personally, that is the prevailing perspective in our culture, so it's bound to have an influence. You see, if somebody punches me in the face, they are only hurting ME. But if somebody rapes me, they are hurting me AND my present/future spouse/committed partner.

And incidentally, it's not at all uncommon for rape victims to end up broken up from the guy they were dating at the time. Part of this may be a reaction on the part of the rape victim to the trauma, and part of it may be a reaction by the boyfriend to knowing that their girlfriend was violated like that. For some men, it can be very difficult to overcome the "image" of that event and to be intimate with their woman again.

That being said, different people react differently to rape AND to assault. What is more traumatic is often in the eye of the survivor.

I've been raped and I've been cut open for a c-section against my will. To ME, the c-section was more traumatic. The rape left no visible scars and no lasting "evidence", so in time I was able to just stop thinking about it. But that c-section left scars that will never heal and a child ...

Talk about cherry picking what you want to hear...sheesh.


No, you're saying that you, who not only has no idea what rape is and what it does, from your ignoring of my and others testimony here has no interest in learning what it is, wants to tell me how I should feel about being raped.

Think about how utterly arrogant, unsupportive, and useless that is for a second.

You don't walk up to somone who lost their home and loved ones in Katrina and say, "But they're in a better place, and you have a FEMA trailer, so you shouldn't feel bad at all."
 
2012-02-05 10:15:13 PM  

Voxper: KiplingKat872 : And most feminist are very much in favor of self defence courses.

But isn't that "victim blaming"?

Self-defense means that a woman can do something when she's being attacked. That's victim-blaming! Right? Isn't it?

Saying that a woman can affect whether or not an attempted rape turns into a completed rape? Isn't that (GASP) taking some teeny amount of the focus away from the rapists who are 100% to blame for everything that happens?

Surely self-defense courses are way worse than anything I've said so far?


Oh for farks sake...nobody is saying that self-defense course are wrong. What wrong is that some people will turn it into every time a woman cannot fight off her attacker that she deserved to get raped. That's the problem - after my rape attempt I was told by many people that getting into self-defense courses would help me with my reasonable jumpiness and anxiety. The classes were put on my college's woman group and heavy promoted by them to help reduce becoming a rape victim or getting mugged. The problem is that while it can reduce - it does not eliminate the threat of rape. To be honest there are circumstances that there is nothing you can do. It sucks - it really does - society doesn't like to face that fact. Nobody likes to think that bad things happen to innocent people, which is why society is so focused on victim blaming. If you can assign blame to both sides - it helps to make sense. Human as a whole do not like not being unable to explain why something happens.

It's not just rape, although it gets the most attention, so do a lot violent crimes such as murder and physical assault have the same problem. A back in the 80's we had a black boy get shot (he survived but I believe had some pretty serious long term effects from the injury) in my mostly white hometown. The kid's car broke down and he was just looking into the front window at nearby home to see if anyone was home before bothering to knock. The farkwit owner thought he was casing the joint to rob it and ran out with a gun and shot the kid . Instead of people be realistic that it was a case of bad circumstances outside of the kids control and the guy that shot him was a racist overreacting asshole - they made a million excuses. Why did the kid drive a car that broke down, didn't he understand that we don't have many minorities in our town, why didn't he try to run away when the guy came out guns blazing instead of trying to reason with him and a whole lot of the old guy was just from a different era and can't be held accountable for his actions blah blah blah. Most the people saying this crap said they felt terrible that the kid was seriously injured. Unfortunately that was followed by "well he didn't deserve it but......" statements. Classic victim shaming - it's not just limited to rape victims.
 
2012-02-05 10:24:42 PM  

morgantx:

/Thanks to my sponsor for TF, BTW!
//You know who you are!
///Slashies!


Heehee - I've actually had you tagged for a couple days with 'pass the buck here' and kept forgetting to do it. This thread reminded me why I had the tag :)

/Texas is apparently a LOT like Florida in ... many ways...
 
2012-02-05 10:26:51 PM  

clyph: Stavroginska: Legally, in the U.S. it was statutory Rape.

Age of consent in the majority of the US is 16. There used to be some states that went as low as 14 just a few years back, but now it's 16 or 17 in most states, with a few going as high as 18.


why?
seriously
pretty much EVERYONE I knew in highschool was getting laid, trying to get laid or wishing that they were getting laid.
(yes, we know, not everyone .... some people waited) ....

so ignoring the parents, who WISH that their snowflakes would wait forever and ignoring religious tards, who wish that no one had sex, whn is it ok to have sex?
why isnt it ok for kids to have fun and experiment?

some arent ready? so what! why should the rest get arrested because of that?
the whole thing is CRAZY ...
(big age difference, yah normal people have a problem with that ... move on ....)
(12 yo? no one is talking about that)
(talking about normal, healthy sexual experimentation, which starts sometime around highschool for most people) ...

maybe people who are not able to consent should be required to wear a necklace to that effect.
"I AM OFF LIMITS"
if you have sex with a person who was wearing one of these, you get arrested for rape"

women could wear them when they go out drinking, right? because if you drink, you can not consent ....

sigh
this is so sad
how can anyone ever consent to anything?
you take her to dinner and you have a drink
now you can not have sex for 4 days, to be certain that the alcohol is out of the system ...
sigh

/and yes, we all know there is a difference ....
 
2012-02-05 10:27:49 PM  

KiplingKat872: Silly Jesus: KiplingKat872: Silly Jesus: morgantx: Honest Bender: Honest question: What is it about sexual assault that makes it so much more mentally traumatic than regular assault?

Well, for one thing, most people are willing and able to report regular assaults and have their assailant prosecuted and punished. PROVING sexual assault can be challenging, so in many cases, sexual abuse victims never receive the closure that can come from knowing that justice has been served.

But for another thing, sexual violation is usually much more personal and intimate than physical violation. A big part of this does come from our culture. We teach from an early age that sex is supposed to be practiced within the confines of a loving, monogamous, committed relationship, and our culture confirms and reinforces the idea that sex is a very important (some even say SACRED) act. Even if you don't have that opinion personally, that is the prevailing perspective in our culture, so it's bound to have an influence. You see, if somebody punches me in the face, they are only hurting ME. But if somebody rapes me, they are hurting me AND my present/future spouse/committed partner.

And incidentally, it's not at all uncommon for rape victims to end up broken up from the guy they were dating at the time. Part of this may be a reaction on the part of the rape victim to the trauma, and part of it may be a reaction by the boyfriend to knowing that their girlfriend was violated like that. For some men, it can be very difficult to overcome the "image" of that event and to be intimate with their woman again.

That being said, different people react differently to rape AND to assault. What is more traumatic is often in the eye of the survivor.

I've been raped and I've been cut open for a c-section against my will. To ME, the c-section was more traumatic. The rape left no visible scars and no lasting "evidence", so in time I was able to just stop thinking about it. But that c-section left scars that ...



Nothing that you are saying is even remotely close to my opinion or the point that I was trying to get across. Perhaps I just posed the question poorly. I'll fall on that grenade.
 
2012-02-05 10:27:55 PM  

KiplingKat872: I would like to add to morgantx comments about male rape victims. She is right, they have a much harder time coming forward and so the numbers are just starting to be known. It is the same violation, but the social pressures on men make it harder for them to come to grips with it.

First is the "real men are not victimized that way" mindset that shames them into silence. If they were raped by a woman, they may have the additional embarassment of not being to fight them off/control the situation despite being the "bigger and stronger male." If they were raped by a man, their bodies automatic physical response may make them call their entire sexual identity into question.

The gay community has it worse, the cops attitude frequently being, "Well you're gay, so you asked for it." A couple years ago one young man who tried to report his rape was turned away by the LAPD after being told, "Gay men can't be raped."

There is a good website, 1in6.org, that is a resource for male survivors of sexual abuse and assault.


Of course there is a difference in being raped and being victimized. Being raped, I don't feel victimized. Disappointed, yes. It doesn't affect my life at all, though. That said, I didn't have a knife to my throat, either.
 
2012-02-05 10:30:13 PM  

Silly Jesus: KiplingKat872: Silly Jesus: KiplingKat872: Silly Jesus: morgantx: Honest Bender: Honest question: What is it about sexual assault that makes it so much more mentally traumatic than regular assault?

Well, for one thing, most people are willing and able to report regular assaults and have their assailant prosecuted and punished. PROVING sexual assault can be challenging, so in many cases, sexual abuse victims never receive the closure that can come from knowing that justice has been served.

But for another thing, sexual violation is usually much more personal and intimate than physical violation. A big part of this does come from our culture. We teach from an early age that sex is supposed to be practiced within the confines of a loving, monogamous, committed relationship, and our culture confirms and reinforces the idea that sex is a very important (some even say SACRED) act. Even if you don't have that opinion personally, that is the prevailing perspective in our culture, so it's bound to have an influence. You see, if somebody punches me in the face, they are only hurting ME. But if somebody rapes me, they are hurting me AND my present/future spouse/committed partner.

And incidentally, it's not at all uncommon for rape victims to end up broken up from the guy they were dating at the time. Part of this may be a reaction on the part of the rape victim to the trauma, and part of it may be a reaction by the boyfriend to knowing that their girlfriend was violated like that. For some men, it can be very difficult to overcome the "image" of that event and to be intimate with their woman again.

That being said, different people react differently to rape AND to assault. What is more traumatic is often in the eye of the survivor.

I've been raped and I've been cut open for a c-section against my will. To ME, the c-section was more traumatic. The rape left no visible scars and no lasting "evidence", so in time I was able to just stop thinking about it. But that c-section left scars that ...


Nothing that you are saying is even remotely close to my opinion or the point that I was trying to get across. Perhaps I just posed the question poorly. I'll fall on that grenade.


Well what are you saying, then?
 
2012-02-05 10:37:40 PM  

Silly Jesus: KiplingKat872: Silly Jesus: KiplingKat872: Silly Jesus: morgantx: Honest Bender: Honest question: What is it about sexual assault that makes it so much more mentally traumatic than regular assault?

Well, for one thing, most people are willing and able to report regular assaults and have their assailant prosecuted and punished. PROVING sexual assault can be challenging, so in many cases, sexual abuse victims never receive the closure that can come from knowing that justice has been served.

But for another thing, sexual violation is usually much more personal and intimate than physical violation. A big part of this does come from our culture. We teach from an early age that sex is supposed to be practiced within the confines of a loving, monogamous, committed relationship, and our culture confirms and reinforces the idea that sex is a very important (some even say SACRED) act. Even if you don't have that opinion personally, that is the prevailing perspective in our culture, so it's bound to have an influence. You see, if somebody punches me in the face, they are only hurting ME. But if somebody rapes me, they are hurting me AND my present/future spouse/committed partner.

And incidentally, it's not at all uncommon for rape victims to end up broken up from the guy they were dating at the time. Part of this may be a reaction on the part of the rape victim to the trauma, and part of it may be a reaction by the boyfriend to knowing that their girlfriend was violated like that. For some men, it can be very difficult to overcome the "image" of that event and to be intimate with their woman again.

That being said, different people react differently to rape AND to assault. What is more traumatic is often in the eye of the survivor.

I've been raped and I've been cut open for a c-section against my will. To ME, the c-section was more traumatic. The rape left no visible scars and no lasting "evidence", so in time I was able to just stop thinking about it. But that c-section left scars that ...


Nothing that you are saying is even remotely close to my opinion or the point that I was trying to get across. Perhaps I just posed the question poorly. I'll fall on that grenade.


Cuz' I gotta tell ya, the effects of being raped for me were drastically different than being jumped in school. My RRPTSD, the long term intimacy and self worth issues, etc. had nothing to do with society because I had by passed social pressures years prior and did not discuss it with a therapist until years afterwards.

That's just what rape does, because it is *not* the same as basic physical assalt.
 
2012-02-05 10:41:20 PM  
zzrhardy: Look - it is a gendered topic, accept it and move on.

No, it's the result of basing all your ideas about rape on a bunch of wishful thinking that ends-up failing when Missy decides to go party with Borat who thinks she'd look really cute chained-up to his stove back home in Jerkoffistan. Why, in his language? There's not even a word for "no!" But never mind that.

Fine, I'll move on. Jumpin' Jesus on a surfboard.
 
2012-02-05 10:45:24 PM  

KiplingKat872: Honest Bender: LadyHawke: AmorousRedDragon: Abuse of alcohol and drugs made it difficult for her to distinctly and positively confirm what she recalled.

Maybe the whole idea of getting trashed with 3 older males alone in some warehouse wasn't the best choice.

Yes, but that doesn't mean she deserved to be raped.

No it doesn't. But it might mean it wasn't rape. Regret != rape. TFA makes it sound like the guy didn't really know it was rape. Just a trashed girl with emotional problems.

That said, real rape is a terrible thing. Men, I know it's difficult, but try and not switch your brain off entirely when you get hard. Ladies, try not to put yourself in these kinds of situations.

The exact "blame the victim" mentality that contributes to this crap happening.

How was this incident not "real rape?" She said "No. Stop." A couple times.

Thanks a lot farkwit, welcome to my ignore list of rape-apologists.


I think we all need to slow our roll here before anyone gets labled as anything. Like many others I had a certain idea in mind upon reading the headline. Specifically, young woman is forcibly raped, left broken and bleeding. However, that's not what the article showed. What we got was a piecemeal conversation reported by a third party of an event that took place over a decade ago. Both parties admitted to drugs and alcohol use. Currently, and without any further evidence I find both parties guilty of making horrible choices.

We all probably have a stereotyped idea of what constitutes rape. It's obvious that it's not always a guy or guys jumping out of a shadowy alley and dragging a woman down to have their way with her. There are some tough grey areas. The people in the article sorted out that she may have said no at some point, perhaps several times. A friend of mine in college had a situation with a young woman. They had both been drinking. She went to bed with him, he put a condom on, and proceeded. After insertion she told him to stop because it hurt. He stopped, took the condom off, and they lay in bed together. They talked and she was ok with giving it another go. He put on another condom and started up again. She told him to stop a second time, she was feeling uncomfortable with the pain, so he did, and removed the condom. Again, they lay in bed together, and she told him to try again. At this point he was frustrated and out of condoms. He told her no and went to sleep. The whole situation is made more awkward (from my point of view) by the fact that she told me of the encounter before my friend. He was actually quite embarassed.

Based on some of the posts above, my friend raped the woman becuase she had said no. If she had formerly accused him of rape, she could honestly testify that she said no more than once. His only defense would have been "She wanted to", which sounds terrible when you are the defendent.

My point is this: real life encounters are rarely what we see in movies or read about in books. The story in the article has the potential to be rape. More details would have to be gleaned before we could ever know the true details.

/hope you don't put me on the ignore list with a horrible tag, not trying to white knight anyone. Just feel that everyone is jumping to conclusions based on hear-say and conjecture.
 
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