RowdyRough: Lansydyr: GAT_00: Lansydyr: the silent Christians

You know, as best as I can tell, you don't exist. If there really are as many of you as the few who claim to represent a silent majority usually indicate, why don't you slap these people down publicly? That never happens. There is apparently a majority of Christians who are appalled by things like this, but simply can't be bothered to give enough of a fark to get it to stop. That makes you no better than them.

It's like the actual conservative Republicans. They don't exist anymore, and I have no reason not to treat the average Christian as being someone like this, because experience and all available evidence has told me the actual Christian is a very, very small minority.

First, I never said "a majority" because I do think that people who believe like I do ARE NOT a majority. There's some truth in Jesus' words when he talks about the narrow path and the wide path. I don't think that he's talking about Christians versus non-christians. There's a verse in Isaiah that has, "judgement will begin at the house of the Lord" which I think supports when Jesus also talked about not knowing many people who will proclaim to be Christian.

Am I silent? No, but I also don't have a national platform with which to present my views. I have a hard enough time trying to prove to my dad that Republicans to claim the loudest to Christian don't follow christian philosophy in the least when dealing with political issues.

Sometimes I feel like Elijah after Jezebel threatened to have him killed. He had just defeated 450 prophets of Baal, had the people's support and ran away discouraged, praying to God to let him die. My hope is when looking at that story, he didn't stay discouraged, he was comforted, and continued his mission.

I can only hope that someday, the majority of people who feel that they are Christian understand the major perversion that has gone on in both the Catholic and the Protestent demonizations. I'm not ...

As someone who was once a Christian (of the megachurch Protestant theology-lite variety), but finds himself pretty agnostic these days, I understand. I stopped practicing a long time ago due to philosophical/personal reasons, but the current political climate is a large part of the reason I haven't considered going back and trying to find my faith again. I remember the terrible things the "churchies," as I now call them, used to say about gays, liberals, non-Christians, etc., and the thought of even associating with those people again utterly sickens me, even though I agreed with them once upon a time. And to be perfectly honest, I can't blame anyone for generalizing about Christians being bigots and hypocrites, because these things are just that prevalent in the religion in this country.

But if I may offer just a small defense of Christians, I can say that some of the most intelligent, enlightened, tolerant and compassionate people I've met since leaving my megachurch have been devoted Christians. They believe in evolution, they're fairly liberal on social issues, and they probably know their history as well as their theology better than most people in this thread. Perhaps tellingly, I've gotten to know all these Christians in university settings, and none of them are megachurch-goers: a few are Catholics, a couple are Greek Orthodox, and a few others are Protestants from fairly small denominations. They're all academics on their way to making a name for themselves in their fields, and I am extremely proud to have known them.

So yeah, they do exist. Not on the TV or in the Joel Osteen-esque show-churches, but in divinity schools, seminaries, small churches -and all around you if you open yourself up to finding them. Maybe they do need to be a bit more vocal, but they're not being completely silent either, and the way the media works doesn't necessarily bode in their favor.

culebra: jcooli09: So what? Obama is a hypocrite for using the bible he likely doesn't believe in to support his policies, and some republican is a hypocrite for acting like he gives a shiat about why Obama quoted the bible. They're both politicians, what do you expect from them?

Are you positing that Obama is an atheist, agnostic, or deist? Or something else entirely? Serious question.

I don't know what he is for sure. He doesn't attend church regularly, but he's fairly quick with a scripture when he needs to be. All politicians in this country need to be, they don't necessarily need to believe it.

Truth be told, I don't see how an honestly religious person could get elected to high office. I think that's how it should be, too, but I wish they were honest about it.

WhyteRaven74: jcooli09: Obama is a hypocrite for using the bible he likely doesn't believe in to support his policies,

It's possible to see the teachings of Jesus as valid without thinking Jesus was the son of God. Indeed the validity of the teachings is entirely independent of Jesus and who he was.

Indeed, that's how I feel. That's not what Obama says, though.

I'm rather enjoying Common Sense Jesus. Thanks Vernon FL. Jesus loves you, as far as I know.

Obviously Obama is a closet atheist.

See how funny it is when your own bullshiat is used against you Christians/Republicans?

Obama is the best troll ever.

dahmers love zombie: GAT_00: Hey look at this, yet another Christian Muslim atheist acting as I expect them to. To the rest of you Christians Muslims atheists, the ones who always get so mad when I refer to the lot of you as worthless bigots terrorists degenerates who are a stain on society - I point out yet another example, we get at least one daily, that proves this is the reality of your religion. You have no value. Maybe it really is what you claim, that there are millions of you out there who are good people, but I see no good from you on a daily basis. I see people like these, people like the ones in Michele Bachmann's district Iraq the JREF who were proud, PROUD, they drove teenagers to wear suicide belts renounce their religion in the name of Jesus Allah rationality. You are responsible for these people, because you have not smacked them down.

This is the face of Christianity Islam atheism. Bigotry, child molestation, and simple hatred of anyone who doesn't conform exactly to their ideals. The entire world would be better off without the lot of you.

Not really disagreeing with you, GAT_00, but personally, I'd call it a failing of religionists in general. The problem is that when you sub in another particular religion, it probably seems rather bigoted. Perhaps the issue is with people who view beliefs as more important than people, whatever their particular cult happens to be.

The problem with GAT's post is that...well...I get a kick out of most of the replies on it...

Lionel Mandrake: Why do Republicans hate Jesus?

No, serious question...they clearly hate the Jesus of the Gospels and have replaced him with a supply-sider who never said anything about the poor, the weak, the imprisoned, the cast aside, the sick, the hungry...

If you have to reinvent Jesus to love him, then you don't really love him, no matter how hard you thump that Bible.

they don't hate Jesus, it's just that have a different Jesus than other Christians. Most Christians worship Jesus of Nazareth while these guys worship Jesus of Convenience who is akin to being the Luby's of Religions, little of this, little of that and if you don't like something you can just ignore it hooray!! perfect for all of your needs. Jesus of Convenience, the Swiss Army knife of deities.

GAT_00

Congrats on your trolling success!

But...if you weren't trolling, but rather asking a sincere question in intense frustration....

To understand a given field, active research is required. Passively ingesting what the "bleed/lead" media gives you is lazy at best and intellectually dishonest at worst.

Viciously insulting a given demographic ("I refer to the lot of you as worthless bigots who are a stain on society" etc.) removes your right to complain when they retaliate. If you think you are so much better than those nasty X-tians, then don't engage in the tactics of which you accuse them.

How exactly would you recommend we "smack them down"? That pesky First Amendment won't allow us to censor or jail them. Even when we do kick them out of our churches and political organizations, there is nothing to keep them from forming their own groups, still claiming the mantle of Christianity. And the media, which loves noise and controversy, is happy to let them keep that title.

Finally... be careful what you wish for. The trouble with purges is that they have a nasty tendency to go out of control, eventually turning on their makers. How long would it be before one of your group decided that YOUR belief system had some intolerable aspect and turned on YOU?

Smelly McUgly: Whoa whoa whoa, they aren't *my* presidential candidates. I vote mostly Democrat, but only because there isn't a viable party to the left.

Then make one.

PICK. ANOTHER. NAME.

GAT_00: Hey look at this, yet another Christian acting as I expect them to. To the rest of you Christians, the ones who always get so mad when I refer to the lot of you as worthless bigots who are a stain on society - I point out yet another example, we get at least one daily, that proves this is the reality of your religion. You have no value. Maybe it really is what you claim, that there are millions of you out there who are good people, but I see no good from you on a daily basis. I see people like these, people like the ones in Michele Bachmann's district who were proud, PROUD, they drove teenagers to suicide in the name of Jesus. You are responsible for these people, because you have not smacked them down.

This is the face of Christianity. Bigotry, child molestation, and simple hatred of anyone who doesn't conform exactly to their ideals. The entire world would be better off without the lot of you.

How do you really feel? Not the nonsense you spewed, really, but the fact you think the world would be a better place without 2.1 billion people because of a president quoting one line from the Bible? That's not a tad bit of a psychotic overreaction? Christians are responsible for blah blah because they didn't smack them down? See, Christians don't have to "smack them down" because they know that things sort themselves out, and that there is a special place in hell reserved for people like them. Perhaps you're just trolling.

ThistleChaser: Obviously Obama is a closet atheist.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I think it's somewhat likely that he is a deist.

I felt that the article need more... ellipsis... It was barely legible...

Mike_LowELL: GAT_00: Hey look at this, yet another Christian acting as I expect them to. To the rest of you Christians, the ones who always get so mad when I refer to the lot of you as worthless bigots who are a stain on society - I point out yet another example, we get at least one daily, that proves this is the reality of your religion. You have no value. Maybe it really is what you claim, that there are millions of you out there who are good people, but I see no good from you on a daily basis. I see people like these, people like the ones in Michele Bachmann's district who were proud, PROUD, they drove teenagers to suicide in the name of Jesus. You are responsible for these people, because you have not smacked them down.

Romney: 538
Obama: 0

Deal with it.

Dude, Reagan couldn't get 538 in '84, and he was running against Walter Mondale, who made John F. Kerry look like John F. Kennedy.

jcooli09: So what? Obama is a hypocrite for using the bible he likely doesn't believe in to support his policies, and some republican is a hypocrite for acting like he gives a shiat about why Obama quoted the bible. They're both politicians, what do you expect from them?

Out of curiosity, why do you find it "likely" that Obama doesn't believe in the Bible?

Don't get me wrong, I wish he didn't, at least in terms of it being a holy text of any sort, since I believe religion is for misguided idiots. That being said, he's never come across as anything but religious. In fact, if I recall correctly, he even has some sort of stupid POTUS record for number or times gone to church, at least out of the last few presidents.

quatchi: After hearing the Golden Rule itself being actively booed at a GOP derpbate the other night nobody should be at all surprised by this.


Well, to be fair, the golden rule is in so many ancient texts and non-christian sources that something like this shouldn't be surprising.

jcooli09: culebra: jcooli09: So what? Obama is a hypocrite for using the bible he likely doesn't believe in to support his policies, and some republican is a hypocrite for acting like he gives a shiat about why Obama quoted the bible. They're both politicians, what do you expect from them?

Are you positing that Obama is an atheist, agnostic, or deist? Or something else entirely? Serious question.

I don't know what he is for sure. He doesn't attend church regularly, but he's fairly quick with a scripture when he needs to be. All politicians in this country need to be, they don't necessarily need to believe it.

Truth be told, I don't see how an honestly religious person could get elected to high office. I think that's how it should be, too, but I wish they were honest about it.

Jimmy Carter was the last president we had that I thought was genuine in his faith.

You know it's an election year when all the politicians start wearing their religion on their sleeves. Start showing up in church, attending prayer breakfasts quoting the bible, etc... Just worry about running the country and leave the religion to the professionals.

Good points, Phocas.

Just to counter your first thought, though--not everyone who expresses extreme frustration with fundies is getting their evidence from "the media".

Plenty of us deal with these folks in person.

My feelings towards hard-Right Christians have actually softened since I removed myself from a town full of them. I've gone from the white-hot hatred of a thousand suns, in high school in Pensacola, FL, to a kind of low-grade, firm anger now. I think that's a pretty common experience, though YMMV.

Just saying, don't assume those who are extremely mad at fundamentalism are necessarily driven there by media brainwashing. Very often it's first-hand, massively negative experience.

supageil: Good points, Phocas.

Just to counter your first thought, though--not everyone who expresses extreme frustration with fundies is getting their evidence from "the media".

Plenty of us deal with these folks in person.

My feelings towards hard-Right Christians have actually softened since I removed myself from a town full of them. I've gone from the white-hot hatred of a thousand suns, in high school in Pensacola, FL, to a kind of low-grade, firm anger now. I think that's a pretty common experience, though YMMV.

Just saying, don't assume those who are extremely mad at fundamentalism are necessarily driven there by media brainwashing. Very often it's first-hand, massively negative experience.

Same here. My feelings on fundies has softened quite a bit since I extracted myself from them in my hometown and cocooned myself in a liberal bubble in Austin.

If the "elite east coast mainstream media" only knew how off the charts frighteningly crazy they really were. They're too far removed from them to really know the truly scary parts.

IlGreven: Smelly McUgly: Whoa whoa whoa, they aren't *my* presidential candidates. I vote mostly Democrat, but only because there isn't a viable party to the left.

Then make one.

PICK. ANOTHER. NAME.

Make another political party to the left of the Democrats? I'll get right on that, sir!

Seriously, I vote Green and Socialist Workers on a local level sometimes, but voting third-party on a national level doesn't work unless I have 20+ million voters doing it with me.

I do think there is something to grassroots activism at the local level so that a small party can gain power slowly before it works its way up to state and national elections. If you want to get something going with me, I'm in for it. Can we agree to answer any questions about wedge issues with, "That is irrelevant; let's move on?" We could make that the major plank of our party and call ourselves the "fark you, that's irrelevant!" Party.

Phocas: How exactly would you recommend we "smack them down"?

I would start by not attempting to defend them by condemning people like GAT who are outraged by them.

skepticultist: Phocas: How exactly would you recommend we "smack them down"?

I would start by not attempting to defend them by condemning people like GAT who are outraged by them.

Well, GAT is outraged by every Christian ever, to be fair.

That said, I understand where he is coming from in the sense that if you're part of the majority culture, you don't get to biatch when people tar you with a broad brush. I hate it when white people whine about being "marginalized" *ahem*, and I'm damn sure not going to turn around and do the same thing. People will often have justified anger toward the majority, generally, and it's up to that majority to continue to evolve as quickly as possible toward an equitable stance toward everyone regardless of race, religion (or lack thereof), gender, sexual orientation, etc.

That will take years and years and years, but it is happening. It's either that, or the religion dies out altogether when it isn't relevant to the sensibilities of a people who have culturally evolved. It's evolve or die for the churches.

It will get ugly, however, as those who are ignorant and fear change get louder, nastier, and forcefully dumber the more that this country moves toward more enlightened social and economic positions.

"For unto whom much is given, much shall be required."
~Stalin

Silly Obama. Everybody knows that Jesus was a Republican who preached the Prosperity Doctrine.

Phuk Georgia

Georgia Republican. His laundry was probably about to close and he needed to get his white sheets. That or there was a special on crosses and gasoline at his local hardware store.

If you are a Christian, and you are a Republican, then guess what? You aren't a Christian. Period.

The two philosophies are incompatible, at a base level. Christianity is about helping the needy, no matter the cost to yourself. You essentially are expected to give away everything to people that need it more than you do. If you aren't doing that, you aren't Christian.

culebra: MrEricSir: How would Jesus respond to this comment? I think Jesus would have put you on his ignore list. I'll do the same.

shinji3i: Damn Obama and his time travel machine. He went and illegally put in a black president in the past so he would not be the only black president we have ever had. DAMN YOU OBAMA!

This thread is just chock full of misinterpretation, isn't it?

Like a bible study class...

CitizensUnited: so this thread will consist of libs defending Barrack Hussein N0bama for using the Bible to justify his policies, and conservatives defending a Congressman for walking out on it?

//we're through the looking glass here people.

Yes, it is, alt that was created on Christmas Eve, proving that your family doesn't love you.
Guess what? The GOP doesn't hold the patent on Christianity, as much as you want to think they do.

In a many dark hour I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot Had God on his side.

supageil: Good points, Phocas.

Just to counter your first thought, though--not everyone who expresses extreme frustration with fundies is getting their evidence from "the media".

Plenty of us deal with these folks in person.

My feelings towards hard-Right Christians have actually softened since I removed myself from a town full of them. I've gone from the white-hot hatred of a thousand suns, in high school in Pensacola, FL, to a kind of low-grade, firm anger now. I think that's a pretty common experience, though YMMV.

Just saying, don't assume those who are extremely mad at fundamentalism are necessarily driven there by media brainwashing. Very often it's first-hand, massively negative experience.

Exactly. I dislike the Fundamentalist Christians because of the Fundamentalist Christians I have met in person. I do my best to ignore the opinions of the media. Especially since as near as I remember the only Fundamentalist religion I hear bad mouthed in the media are the Muslims and maybe the Westboro Baptists.

dahmers love zombie: GAT_00: Hey look at this, yet another Christian Muslim acting as I expect them to. To the rest of you Christians Muslims, the ones who always get so mad when I refer to the lot of you as worthless bigots terrorists who are a stain on society - I point out yet another example, we get at least one daily, that proves this is the reality of your religion. You have no value. Maybe it really is what you claim, that there are millions of you out there who are good people, but I see no good from you on a daily basis. I see people like these, people like the ones in Michele Bachmann's district Iraq who were proud, PROUD, they drove teenagers to wear suicide belts in the name of Jesus Allah. You are responsible for these people, because you have not smacked them down.

This is the face of Christianity Islam. Bigotry, child molestation, and simple hatred of anyone who doesn't conform exactly to their ideals. The entire world would be better off without the lot of you.

Not really disagreeing with you, GAT_00, but personally, I'd call it a failing of religionists in general. The problem is that when you sub in another particular religion, it probably seems rather bigoted. Perhaps the issue is with people who view beliefs as more important than people, whatever their particular cult happens to be.

You're just substituting one set of Abrahamics with another, and their extreme fundamentalists share common extreme traits. Despite how much their adherents might wish it were otherwise, Dominionists = Taliban = Haredi far more often than not.

' Rep. Phil Gingrey, R-Ga., left during Obama's speech because "he was disturbed and offended by the president's use of prayer and reflection time for partisan politics and class warfare." '

Here's a simple solution: Don't bring your farking religion to work. I don't recall the Founding Fathers having little sunday school classes while hammering out the Constitution nor Abraham Lincoln maniacally waving his Bible around to prove he was holier than Jefferson Davis. If you don't want to look like an asshole when your opponent quotes Jesus in a debate then you shouldn't be so quick to whip out religion as a trump card in the first place.

In fact that last sentence would make a really nice rule to live by. Wonder if anyone ever thought of writing it down.

Not Christian myself, but moralizing you're holier than thou in Christianity sort of loses effect when you're the face of abortion politically. You don't get to pick and choose parts of a religion when you take it up. Also, using any religion as a pawn for political gain probably makes you about as reverent as a crack whore during Fleet Week. Not that the other side doesn't either...

Isn't he on the side who screams freedom FROM religion anyways? It just comes off as utterly disingenuous.

Terrible Old Man: Not Christian myself, but moralizing you're holier than thou in Christianity sort of loses effect when you're the face of abortion politically. You don't get to pick and choose parts of a religion when you take it up. Also, using any religion as a pawn for political gain probably makes you about as reverent as a crack whore during Fleet Week. Not that the other side doesn't either...

Isn't he on the side who screams freedom FROM religion anyways? It just comes off as utterly disingenuous.

I'm not buying your yarn...

Terrible Old Man: Not Christian myself, but moralizing you're holier than thou in Christianity sort of loses effect when you're the face of abortion politically. You don't get to pick and choose parts of a religion when you take it up. Also, using any religion as a pawn for political gain probably makes you about as reverent as a crack whore during Fleet Week. Not that the other side doesn't either...

Isn't he on the side who screams freedom FROM religion anyways? It just comes off as utterly disingenuous.

There's a difference between expressing one's faith and legislating it which is where most people find a problem.

Terrible Old Man: Not Christian myself, but moralizing you're holier than thou in Christianity sort of loses effect when you're the face of abortion politically. You don't get to pick and choose parts of a religion when you take it up. Also, using any religion as a pawn for political gain probably makes you about as reverent as a crack whore during Fleet Week. Not that the other side doesn't either...

Isn't he on the side who screams freedom FROM religion anyways? It just comes off as utterly disingenuous.

False statement of neutrality: Check.
Understated inflammatory bombshell ('face of abortion politically'): Check.
Through the Looking Glass flipped accusation of hypocrisy: Check.
Blatant flamebait fault in logic ('focusing on the splinter' of Democratic Party playing politics with Scripture vs. 'ignoring the log' of Republican Party same): Check.
Both sides are bad equivocation: Check.
Final outrageous jab: Check.

A masterclass of trolling. That'll do, pig.

IMO, probably won't be alive to see it, but I suspect that in 20-30 years religion will have a significantly lower impact on politics, the Republican party will have folded or be in desperate transition to form a new political ideology as they will no longer be able to count on the demo of retards, racists, and other religious whackos to win.

Why do I say this? Because the one and only growing demo is atheists/agnostics/other. Catholics, Protestants, Evangelicals, Jews, Baptists, what ever you want to call em, their numbers are shrinking. Less people identify with an organized religion, much less even attend their religious services. Out of the number that do I am sure a greater and growing percentage do so out of social pressure only.

I only wish I can see the day when the first openly..atheist President is elected, and does so refusing to put his hand on a fairy tale book and instead chooses something more appropriate, like the current issue of Busty Asian Midget Milfs.

Phocas: Viciously insulting a given demographic removes your right to complain when they retaliate.

Hi there. I'm a homosexual, or as your fellow Christians often - not at all viciously - call me, an abomination in God's eyes., a sinner, a degenerate. Nice to meet you.

It looks like you're feeling a bit persecuted over there. I can relate! Wasn't it just awful when they introduced that Constitutional amendment banning Christians from getting married? I mean, talk about... what's that? Oh right, it was the Christians who introduced the amendment to keep gays from getting married. Well, there's still the crowds of people standing outside churches and screaming at the scared, confused people trying to enter. Absolutely disgusting, wouldn't you... what's that? Oh yes, it was Christians screaming at young girls going into Planned Parenthood. My bad! Well, let's see... that still leaves the people who wish you happy holidays. Inhumane, I tell you!

From where I stand, Christians in the United States are on the giving end when it comes to persecution. And no, it's not fair to lump all Christians together, but if you get ticked off when I do that, imagine how I feel when a group of Christians is spending obscene amounts of time and money trying to prevent me from living my life as I see fit.