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(TG Daily)   New experiment will force creationist arguments to evolve   (tgdaily.com) divider line 229
    More: Cool, evolution, hind limbs, desert island, University of Rhode Island, genetic variation, genetic analysis, natural selection  
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10817 clicks; posted to Geek » on 03 Feb 2012 at 1:15 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-02-03 12:32:32 PM
In the meantime, all 7 islands reported 16 species of insects that are now endangered due to the introduction of non-indigenouse lifeforms.
 
2012-02-03 01:01:49 PM

Derek Force: In the meantime, all 7 islands reported 16 species of insects that are now endangered due to the introduction of non-indigenouse lifeforms.


Which part of "Kolbe's team randomly collected brown anole lizards from a large island near Great Abaco in the Bahamas, and released one pair on each of seven nearby islands whose lizard populations had been cleared by a recent hurricane."
do you not understand?
The island's native lizards had been killed by the hurricane. If anything that would mean that the insects would be reproducing excessively with the absence of natural predators. In addition the lizards were from a similar nearby ecosystem and although the article does not state I would assume are very closely related to the lizards that died off.
 
2012-02-03 01:11:09 PM
Jason Kolbe, a biologist at the University of Rhode Island and his team have found that the lizards' genetic and structural traits were determined by both natural selection and a phenomenon called the founder effect. This is the loss of genetic variation that occurs when a new population is established by a very small number of individuals...

"Over the next four years, the lizards on all the islands experienced a decrease in leg length that is attributable to natural selection. But those that started out with the longest hind limbs still had the longest hind limbs."


Let us not confuse creative evolution with variations in the composition of a population through circumstances. They are two distinct things, and any attempt to connect them is purely specious. ~ Pierre Grasse
 
2012-02-03 01:20:23 PM
Oh goody, Steve is here. I look forward to well thought out arguements explaining why evolution is my tin foil hat. a bunch of randomly connected anti-evolutionary quotes that are only tangentially related to the discussion at hand or have very little science to support them.

/FTFM
 
2012-02-03 01:20:38 PM

Bevets: Jason Kolbe, a biologist at the University of Rhode Island and his team have found that the lizards' genetic and structural traits were determined by both natural selection and a phenomenon called the founder effect. This is the loss of genetic variation that occurs when a new population is established by a very small number of individuals...

"Over the next four years, the lizards on all the islands experienced a decrease in leg length that is attributable to natural selection. But those that started out with the longest hind limbs still had the longest hind limbs."

Let us not confuse creative evolution with variations in the composition of a population through circumstances. They are two distinct things, and any attempt to connect them is purely specious. ~ Pierre Grasse


You really have no clue what evolution really means do you?

Maybe you should learn what it says before just attacking it. You don't understand what evolution is.
 
2012-02-03 01:21:42 PM
Right... Just like how new evidence for either side of climate change changes opinions
 
2012-02-03 01:23:23 PM

NuttierThanEver: Derek Force: In the meantime, all 7 islands reported 16 species of insects that are now endangered due to the introduction of non-indigenouse lifeforms.

Which part of "Kolbe's team randomly collected brown anole lizards from a large island near Great Abaco in the Bahamas, and released one pair on each of seven nearby islands whose lizard populations had been cleared by a recent hurricane."
do you not understand?
The island's native lizards had been killed by the hurricane. If anything that would mean that the insects would be reproducing excessively with the absence of natural predators. In addition the lizards were from a similar nearby ecosystem and although the article does not state I would assume are very closely related to the lizards that died off.


Besides, dem bugs had it comin'.
 
2012-02-03 01:24:43 PM

Corvus: You really have no clue what evolution really means do you?

Maybe you should learn what it says before just attacking it. You don't understand what evolution is.



"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary salvation depends upon his not understanding it!" - Upton Sinclair (new window)
 
2012-02-03 01:25:08 PM

Oysterman: Right... Just like how new evidence for either side of climate change changes opinions


Not new evidence, a new experiment. As in all those objections creationists have about how evolution can't be experimentally tested.

/Because obviously you can experimentally prove that God created everything. All you need is a DeLorean, the exact time and date of creation, and a Mr. Fusion.
 
2012-02-03 01:28:23 PM
No it won't. They'll ignore this just like they ignore the mountain of other evidence that they have already ignored.

Never underestimate the power of cognitive dissonance.
 
2012-02-03 01:32:24 PM
I think it's obvious that God put the "Psych!" gene in those lizards to fool us all.

Tricky guy, that God.
 
2012-02-03 01:37:47 PM
Denying the theory of evolution is denying fundamental principles of physics and mathematics.
 
2012-02-03 01:38:31 PM

Karac: Oysterman: Right... Just like how new evidence for either side of climate change changes opinions

Not new evidence, a new experiment. As in all those objections creationists have about how evolution can't be experimentally tested.


When they say "experimentally tested" they don't mean demonstrating evolutionary adaptations. They insist on creation of an entirely new type of species, like a lizard evolving into a dog.

Even then, they would figure out a way to deny it.
 
2012-02-03 01:39:05 PM
No, no. This is MICROevolution. This is perfectly acceptable. Macroevolution doesn't exist because we can't stand the idea that our ancestors may have f*cked a few monkeys.
 
2012-02-03 01:40:12 PM
Kind of a cool experiment, it's neat that we're working out the actual rates of evolutionary changes in multicellular organisms that reproduce sexually now. We've had a handle on the unicellular/asexual reproduction organisms for a while now, but the longer generation lengths have always been an issue.

Subby's casting it as new in experimentally demonstrating natural selection is incorrect, though, we experimentally verified evolution through natural selection in like the 1950s. This is working out the details of timing in a new context.
 
2012-02-03 01:41:13 PM
We need to teach the controversy.

And that controversy is that Bevets farks goats. Sure he claims he doesn't. But he does.
 
2012-02-03 01:41:20 PM
URI. What an amazing learning institution.
 
2012-02-03 01:41:20 PM
If the fundies aren't willing to accept the long term E. Coli evolution experiment (new window), why would they accept this?

Longer, shorter legs, big deal. How about evolving the ability to eat an entirely new food?

For bonus yucks, read the letter (new window) from the primary scientist (Lenski) responding to noted fundy idiot Andrew Schlafly (head of Conservapedia)
 
2012-02-03 01:43:25 PM

Shostie: No, no. This is MICROevolution. This is perfectly acceptable. Macroevolution doesn't exist because we can't stand the idea that our ancestors may have f*cked a few monkeys.


Came here to say this. I've heard all the arguments for creationism and it is widely accepted that this happens by even the staunchest creationists.
 
2012-02-03 01:45:05 PM

kregh99: No it won't. They'll ignore this just like they ignore the mountain of other evidence that they have already ignored.
Never underestimate the power of cognitive dissonance.


^ This.
 
2012-02-03 01:45:24 PM

Diogenes: I think it's obvious that God put the "Psych!" gene in those lizards to fool us all.

Tricky guy, that God.


It does it by proxy. He gave Satan a small penis. How else is The Prince of Darkness going to get his rocks off?
 
2012-02-03 01:46:56 PM

GhostFish: Denying the theory of evolution is denying fundamental principles of physics and mathematics.


There are aspects of evolutionary theory that get heavily modified or even struck all the time, it's a very complex field so a lot of lines of descent, for instance, aren't particularly firmly established, and some of the wonkier branches like evolutionary psychology are almost purely speculative.

Maybe you're referring to the fact that evolution occurs, rather than evolutionary theory? Because that fact is data, not theory, it's something that's been directly observed, not an explanation of why such on observed fact might be so. Same with the natural selection process specifically, it has been directly observed to occur, it's not really part of the theory.

//I'm maybe being slightly pedantic, but the distinction is rather important.
 
2012-02-03 01:51:50 PM
When did SteveyB come back? I thought he was raptured last October. Didn't take?
 
2012-02-03 01:54:05 PM

Karac: Oysterman: Right... Just like how new evidence for either side of climate change changes opinions

Not new evidence, a new experiment. As in all those objections creationists have about how evolution can't be experimentally tested.

/Because obviously you can experimentally prove that God created everything. All you need is a DeLorean, the exact time and date of creation, and a Mr. Fusion.


I would volunteer for that experiment, so long as I can use it to hit Milliways afterwards.
 
2012-02-03 01:58:46 PM
When did SteveyB come back? I thought he was raptured last October. Didn't take?

He got sent back after they found out about the whole goatfarking thing.
 
2012-02-03 02:03:00 PM
There are just massive, massive piles of evidence of evolution there. A lack of evidence is not the problem, never was the problem. A belief system which teaches people that evidence and reason are less important than faith - belief in the absence of evidence - THAT is the problem.

Many folks, like the congenitally and willfully ignorant Bevets up there, have been taught that they can just ignore evidence that they don't like and believe what they WANT to believe, evidence and logic be damned. They're making a conscious choice to eschew logic and/or reason.

THAT is why it's so important to fight the indoctrination of children into religious beliefs. We should not let religious people push their teachings on children without a fight. At least during the fight you can introduce the children to the alternative viewpoint of the importance of basic freakin' logic and reason and weaken the deleterious effects of teaching the primacy of faith.
 
2012-02-03 02:07:16 PM

Hypnotoad2966: Shostie: No, no. This is MICROevolution. This is perfectly acceptable. Macroevolution doesn't exist because we can't stand the idea that our ancestors may have f*cked a few monkeys.

Came here to say this. I've heard all the arguments for creationism and it is widely accepted that this happens by even the staunchest creationists.


Macroevolution is just microevolution over a longer period of time.
 
2012-02-03 02:08:13 PM

NuttierThanEver: Oh goody, Steve is here. I look forward to well thought out arguements explaining why evolution is my tin foil hat. a bunch of randomly connected anti-evolutionary quotes that are only tangentially related to the discussion at hand or have very little science to support them.

/FTFM


Don't forget, in about 4 or 5 hours he will come back, hit the quote button a few times and actually type a quick 1 liner to fill his "Look! Look, Fark admins! I "conversed"! Didn't just come in and spam the thread and take off like some cheap viagra ripoff bot from nigeria" quota.

I think he must set an alarm.
 
2012-02-03 02:09:35 PM

Bevets: Jason Kolbe, a biologist at the University of Rhode Island and his team have found that the lizards' genetic and structural traits were determined by both natural selection and a phenomenon called the founder effect. This is the loss of genetic variation that occurs when a new population is established by a very small number of individuals...

"Over the next four years, the lizards on all the islands experienced a decrease in leg length that is attributable to natural selection. But those that started out with the longest hind limbs still had the longest hind limbs."

Let us not confuse creative evolution with variations in the composition of a population through circumstances. They are two distinct things, and any attempt to connect them is purely specious. ~ Pierre Grasse


"And much as Wine has played the Infidel
And robbed me of my robe of Honour, well ...
I often wonder what the vintners buy
One half so precious as the stuff they sell

For some we loved, the loveliest and best
That from His rolling vintage Time has pressed,
Have drunk their glass a round or two before,
And one by one crept silently to rest"

Omar Khayyam

"Gotta nuke something"

Nelson Muntz
 
2012-02-03 02:10:27 PM

Shostie: No, no. This is MICROevolution. This is perfectly acceptable. Macroevolution doesn't exist because we can't stand the idea that our ancestors may have f*cked a few monkeys.


Which is pretty surprising, because anyone who's even heard of the internet has to know humans will screw anything that can't get away in time.
 
2012-02-03 02:12:59 PM

John Nash: Hypnotoad2966: Shostie: No, no. This is MICROevolution. This is perfectly acceptable. Macroevolution doesn't exist because we can't stand the idea that our ancestors may have f*cked a few monkeys.

Came here to say this. I've heard all the arguments for creationism and it is widely accepted that this happens by even the staunchest creationists.

Macroevolution is just microevolution over a longer period of time.


Macroevolution is what microevolutionists use to keep God out of their brainwaves.
 
2012-02-03 02:13:49 PM

WrestlerManager: Karac: Oysterman: Right... Just like how new evidence for either side of climate change changes opinions

Not new evidence, a new experiment. As in all those objections creationists have about how evolution can't be experimentally tested.

When they say "experimentally tested" they don't mean demonstrating evolutionary adaptations. They insist on creation of an entirely new type of species, like a lizard evolving into a dog.

Even then, they would figure out a way to deny it.


It's funny how they insist on seeing things that would disprove evolution. It's like they're idiots or something.
 
2012-02-03 02:15:34 PM
Isn't one of the big "I hate evolution!" arguments something to do with evolution creating a new type of animal or species or something like that?
 
2012-02-03 02:18:53 PM

Hypnotoad2966: Shostie: No, no. This is MICROevolution. This is perfectly acceptable. Macroevolution doesn't exist because we can't stand the idea that our ancestors may have f*cked a few monkeys.

Came here to say this. I've heard all the arguments for creationism and it is widely accepted that this happens by even the staunchest creationists.


And then they pull the "kinds" BS and claim that Noah only took a few thousand animals on the ark and they spread out and turned into all the animals wee see today. The result of evolution running so fast that all life would be like The Thing, changing so fast that no two generations would look anything alike.
 
2012-02-03 02:21:07 PM
Nothing to really see here...

Three types of Evolution

General - Lizard becomes Dog
Special - Lizards, finches, etc change to adapt to habitat but is still a finch or lizard.
Chemical - Life from non-life

This is a prime example of Special and is done by farmers everyday... no biggy.

When they have an experiment that a lizard becomes something completely different call me.

Note: Three types of Evolution are not made up, reference (The Implications of Evolution by G.A. Kerkut)

Granted the book was written sometime ago, I think the thoughts still stand and have yet to be proven... granted its close to Macro and Micro evolution however more defined.

Special unlike Micro can't change into something else over time... its just changes within a kind. Thus various breeds of Dog... granted you can mate almost any dog with another get some kind of mutt... however you'll still have a dog.

Anyway I'll stop here because will write it off as ignorance without realizing evolution(General and Chemical) is only a theory and has yet to be proven. So till we see life from non-life or a dog become a horse from a lab experiment it will remain a theory.

As noted special is used everyday via selective breeding and things of that nature that has been around and done since before Darwin's time so that is provable and applicable.
 
2012-02-03 02:23:15 PM

John Nash: Macroevolution is just microevolution over a longer period of time.


You don't have to convince me, but hey, if you really want someone to argue with I'll play devil's advocate.

"Microevolution is a loss in genetic information (ie a loss of the "long leg gene", in this lizard population) where Macroevolution requires a gain in genetic information. You can't explain that"
 
2012-02-03 02:26:53 PM

Gunny Highway: URI. What an amazing learning institution.


Eh. Don't know about biology but when I went there it was well known for excellent engineering, business, chemistry and pharmacy programs. I of course, studied none of these.
 
2012-02-03 02:30:01 PM
A lack of evidence is not the problem, never was the problem. A belief system which teaches people that evidence and reason are less important than faith - belief in the absence of evidence - THAT is the problem.

Many folks, like the congenitally and willfully ignorant mongbiohazard up there, have been taught that they can just ignore evidence that they don't like and believe what they WANT to believe, evidence and logic be damned. They're making a conscious choice to eschew logic and/or reason.

THAT is why it's so important to fight the indoctrination of children into religious beliefs. We should not let religious people push their teachings on children without a fight. At least during the fight you can introduce the children to the alternative viewpoint of the importance of basic freakin' logic and reason and weaken the deleterious effects of teaching the primacy of faith.
 
2012-02-03 02:32:42 PM

isheltoe: Nothing to really see here...

Three types of Evolution

General - Lizard becomes Dog
Special - Lizards, finches, etc change to adapt to habitat but is still a finch or lizard.
Chemical - Life from non-life

This is a prime example of Special and is done by farmers everyday... no biggy.

When they have an experiment that a lizard becomes something completely different call me.

Note: Three types of Evolution are not made up, reference (The Implications of Evolution by G.A. Kerkut)

Granted the book was written sometime ago, I think the thoughts still stand and have yet to be proven... granted its close to Macro and Micro evolution however more defined.

Special unlike Micro can't change into something else over time... its just changes within a kind. Thus various breeds of Dog... granted you can mate almost any dog with another get some kind of mutt... however you'll still have a dog.

Anyway I'll stop here because will write it off as ignorance without realizing evolution(General and Chemical) is only a theory and has yet to be proven. So till we see life from non-life or a dog become a horse from a lab experiment it will remain a theory.

As noted special is used everyday via selective breeding and things of that nature that has been around and done since before Darwin's time so that is provable and applicable.


The derp is strong, not sure if serious.....

Lizard into dog, is that what you people are waiting for? derp de derp de do
 
2012-02-03 02:36:04 PM

mongbiohazard: There are just massive, massive piles of evidence of evolution there. A lack of evidence is not the problem, never was the problem. A belief system which teaches people that evidence and reason are less important than faith - belief in the absence of evidence - THAT is the problem.

Many folks, like the congenitally and willfully ignorant Bevets up there, have been taught that they can just ignore evidence that they don't like and believe what they WANT to believe, evidence and logic be damned. They're making a conscious choice to eschew logic and/or reason.

THAT is why it's so important to fight the indoctrination of children into religious beliefs. We should not let religious people push their teachings on children without a fight. At least during the fight you can introduce the children to the alternative viewpoint of the importance of basic freakin' logic and reason and weaken the deleterious effects of teaching the primacy of faith.


Child abuse!
 
2012-02-03 02:36:53 PM

sirbissel: Isn't one of the big "I hate evolution!" arguments something to do with evolution creating a new type of animal or species or something like that?


Yep, they are super cereal.
 
2012-02-03 02:37:14 PM

isheltoe: Nothing to really see here...

Three types of Evolution

General - Lizard becomes Dog
Special - Lizards, finches, etc change to adapt to habitat but is still a finch or lizard.
Chemical - Life from non-life

This is a prime example of Special and is done by farmers everyday... no biggy.

When they have an experiment that a lizard becomes something completely different call me.

Note: Three types of Evolution are not made up, reference (The Implications of Evolution by G.A. Kerkut)

Granted the book was written sometime ago, I think the thoughts still stand and have yet to be proven... granted its close to Macro and Micro evolution however more defined.

Special unlike Micro can't change into something else over time... its just changes within a kind. Thus various breeds of Dog... granted you can mate almost any dog with another get some kind of mutt... however you'll still have a dog.

Anyway I'll stop here because will write it off as ignorance without realizing evolution(General and Chemical) is only a theory and has yet to be proven. So till we see life from non-life or a dog become a horse from a lab experiment it will remain a theory.

As noted special is used everyday via selective breeding and things of that nature that has been around and done since before Darwin's time so that is provable and applicable.


mememachine.viralvideochart.com

Have you made a powerful mistake or something? Because the things you just typed are like words and sentences, but entirely unlike actual thoughts.
 
2012-02-03 02:47:28 PM

isheltoe:
Three types of Evolution

General - Lizard becomes Dog
Special - Lizards, finches, etc change to adapt to habitat but is still a finch or lizard.
Chemical - Life from non-life


Would you accept a dinosaur becoming a chicken? Or the reverse?
 
2012-02-03 02:48:29 PM
Let's go over evolution:

1. A bunch of non-living organic molecules float around in the primordial soup
2. ???
3. Simple life appears and begins to evolve.

Anyone got a good answer for step #2?
 
2012-02-03 02:52:10 PM

nmemkha: Let's go over evolution:

1. A bunch of non-living organic molecules float around in the primordial soup
2. ???
3. Simple life appears and begins to evolve.

Anyone got a good answer for step #2?


That's not evolution. It's genesis. Two completely different constructs.
 
2012-02-03 02:53:10 PM

WrestlerManager: nmemkha: Let's go over evolution:

1. A bunch of non-living organic molecules float around in the primordial soup
2. ???
3. Simple life appears and begins to evolve.

Anyone got a good answer for step #2?

That's not evolution. It's genesis. Two completely different constructs.


One follows the other. How did life begin?
 
2012-02-03 02:53:12 PM
Microevolution vs macroevolution is like arguing that the method used to get from your couch to your kitchen can't get you from California to New York.
 
2012-02-03 02:54:23 PM

nmemkha: Let's go over evolution:

1. A bunch of non-living organic molecules float around in the primordial soup
2. ???
3. Simple life appears and begins to evolve.

Anyone got a good answer for step #2?


You might want to decide which idea you are wanting to address.
 
2012-02-03 02:55:10 PM

Bevets: A lack of evidence is not the problem, never was the problem. A belief system which teaches people that evidence and reason are less important than faith - belief in the absence of evidence - THAT is the problem.

Many folks, like the congenitally and willfully ignorant mongbiohazard up there, have been taught that they can just ignore evidence that they don't like and believe what they WANT to believe, evidence and logic be damned. They're making a conscious choice to eschew logic and/or reason.

THAT is why it's so important to fight the indoctrination of children into religious beliefs. We should not let religious people push their teachings on children without a fight. At least during the fight you can introduce the children to the alternative viewpoint of the importance of basic freakin' logic and reason and weaken the deleterious effects of teaching the primacy of faith.


Aww, it's so cute, in a completely stupid way, that you think that linking to your own site or to bible propagandist sites in any way constitutes an argument. It's like you are actually completely incapable of learning from your past failures.

The only question that really remains is whether you're just deliberately willfully ignorant, or are you really that utterly hidebound and incapable of learning. The former is contemptible, the latter pathetic.
 
2012-02-03 02:55:48 PM

nmemkha: One follows the other. How did life begin?


::

I don't know who my great great great grandfather was. How can I be sure I came from my mom?
 
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