FARK.com: (6920407) All right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what has infrastructure done for us?

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		All right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what has infrastructure done for us? (huffingtonpost.com)		176
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hubiestubert

2012-02-03 12:25:46 PM

Folks love the spending, but to be fair, infrastructure requires you to actually build stuff, and that means paying people to do that work. That means that the wrong people get the money. Instead of just going to intellectual property and designers and a handful of engineers and automated factory floors, the cash goes to guys who lay concrete and rebar, and that is investment that goes horribly wrong. That's money that goes back into house payments, that's money that goes directly into the local economy, that is money that has to be filtered back up through banks, and a few layers of payments before it can be shipped out of the economy.

And we can't have that. We need to just ship money directly to banks to head overseas. Don't you people understand anything?

thomps

2012-02-03 12:55:32 PM

Since 2007, there haven't been any more terrifying bridge collapses.

oh well f*ck it then.

EvilEgg

2012-02-03 01:01:54 PM

thomps: Since 2007, there haven't been any more terrifying bridge collapses.

oh well f*ck it then.

Not to say there weren't any bridge collapses.

Need Help Soonish

2012-02-03 01:02:01 PM

thomps: Since 2007, there haven't been any more terrifying bridge collapses.

oh well f*ck it then.

Awwww, come on... why don't you want to live in a beautiful Somalia-like utopia? Why do you hate America?!?

jayhawk88

2012-02-03 01:02:27 PM

But those road crew guys are always just standing around every time I drive by! Lazy slobs, while I go to into work every day and slave at my computer for 8...well 7 with lunch....OK 4 hours today since I'm knocking off early to go see a movie, but still! Elves must show up overnight and do all the work for them.

Ed Finnerty

2012-02-03 01:03:20 PM

kattana

2012-02-03 01:04:42 PM

hubiestubert:
And we can't have that. We need to just ship money directly to banks to head overseas. Don't you people understand anything?

i wouldnt mind seeing all foreign military bases closed and all troops brought home. let all that military money stay here and be pumped into our own local communities. lets start with leaving europe and japan.

thats a lot of money that is very much directly shipped overseas

Dalrint

2012-02-03 01:05:40 PM

I have this theory that all infrastructure spending owes itself to how well a country does the public transportation part. If people see a well organized, well run, well maintained public transportation system, then officials can go 'see how great this is? We're going to fix the energy grid next!' and everyone will get behind them because they've proven they can make something good.

Unfortunately, since the oil and car companies killed American interest in public transportation in the sixties...we're kind of boned.

minnesotaboy

2012-02-03 01:06:28 PM

Brought peace?

4.bp.blogspot.com

Bill_Wick's_Friend

2012-02-03 01:06:58 PM

When travelers from abroad come to this city, the financial and cultural capital of the world's richest nation, two dilapidated and depressing airports greet them. The clogged runways, the leaking roofs, the maddening taxi lines, the lost travelers bumping into each other -- all these depredations are just part of flying the friendly skies to JFK or LaGuardia.

I do most of my flying between LA and Vancouver.

There is NOTHING more refreshing than getting out of stinky, rude, grimy, crumbling, poorly-retrofitted-to-address-911-concerns LAX and landing two hours later in the efficient, well-designed, friendly art gallery atmosphere of YVR's international arrivals area.

Crewmannumber6

2012-02-03 01:07:08 PM

minnesotaboy: Brought peace?

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 400x302]

SHUT UP!

Nadie_AZ

2012-02-03 01:07:47 PM

God damn do we have a few generations of spoiled assholes in this country.

People can't fathom not having water come out of their faucet when it is turned on. If it doesn't, then the end of the world has come. Same with sewage and electricity.

Spend some time away from all of it (try camping with no flashlights, lanterns, propane stoves, etc if you can't utterly cut yourself off) and learn to appreciate what you have. THEN begin to see a bigger picture.

On Again

2012-02-03 01:08:06 PM

I came in here to make a sarcastic comment but everything I could have hoped to convey has been covered in the originating post.

minnesotaboy

2012-02-03 01:08:18 PM

coont4

2012-02-03 01:08:54 PM

This is exactly why I only use private roads instead of government roads.

I know that the fees I pay will actually be used on the roads I use.

Need Help Soonish

2012-02-03 01:11:23 PM

Smeggy Smurf

2012-02-03 01:13:39 PM

Water comes from the faucet.
Milk comes from the grocery store.
Poo goes down the hole.
Don't ask questions how or why. Just CONSUME and OBEY

Jim_Callahan

2012-02-03 01:15:34 PM

jayhawk88: But those road crew guys are always just standing around every time I drive by! Lazy slobs, while I go to into work every day and slave at my computer for 8...well 7 with lunch....OK 4 hours today since I'm knocking off early to go see a movie, but still! Elves must show up overnight and do all the work for them.

Any yahoo can do road paving and expansion with minimal professional supervision, and even if they fark it up it's not a huge deal (a poorly-laid concrete road that turns to gravel in a year can just be blacktopped every once in a while and you can still use it, no problem).

The ones that require a real investment of work, time, and professional oversight are bridges/overpasses and less visible stuff like power and communications infrastructure. And, in a couple more decades, water treatment infrastructure is going to go from a relatively trivial affair (from a technical perspective) to something that requires a real, significant investment of expertise and sweat.

So even though your assessment is more or less correct (most road crews are, in fact, like 80% lazy bastards who could get the job done in 1/4 the time if they put in the amount of work that even a boring office job requires-- and for 1/8 the cost, which is the reason they're usually being lazy) that's not actually what we're really worried about when we talk about infrastructure.

HotIgneous Intruder

2012-02-03 01:17:11 PM

It's like we've grown too stupid, greedy, and selfish to maintain the civilization that previous generations provided for us.

discgolfguru

2012-02-03 01:17:40 PM

Romanes eunt domus!
Romani eunt domus!
Romani ite domus!
Romani ite domum!

krackpipe

2012-02-03 01:17:48 PM

Government salaries and pensions aren't temporarily elastic, unlike private salaries. Public employee unions work to keep them high (except for most teachers, perennially low-wage), because it would take years to get them back if they take a cut. Right now, while the economy is depressed, their pensions and salaries are well above our private sector income. The primary problem remains the ridiculous debt incurred by two destructive Republican administrations. But we might be able to do some infrastructure if most of our tax money didn't pay as much for salaries, pensions, and entitlements. We especially see this at State and local infrastructure levels. It's not right, but there's no mechanism in the public wage structures to temporarily reduce salaries or pensions in line with a depressed economy and then raise them again during good times. Try to get cops or our burgeoning surveillance agencies to take temporary pay cuts. They sue to get it back later with interest instead of just a return to the prior level.

georgeyporgey

2012-02-03 01:19:40 PM

thomps: Since 2007, there haven't been any more terrifying bridge collapses.

oh well f*ck it then.

au contraire mon frere (new window)

The problem is and always has been, the cost of the infrastructure and who gets the money. As soon as there is a infrastructure job, the unions demand exclusive rights to the job, companies that donate to politicians demand exclusive rights to the job. Once the job gets started, no amount of cost overruns will stop it.

I actually contend that people quickly forget about the cost once they see a benefit to it. The Big Dig has not been one of those. And sadly it has impacted the decision making process for all subsequent infrastructure requests.

Ehh

2012-02-03 01:19:51 PM

hubiestubert: Folks love the spending, but to be fair, infrastructure requires you to actually build stuff, and that means paying people to do that work. That means that the wrong people get the money. Instead of just going to intellectual property and designers and a handful of engineers and automated factory floors, the cash goes to guys who lay concrete and rebar, and that is investment that goes horribly wrong. That's money that goes back into house payments, that's money that goes directly into the local economy, that is money that has to be filtered back up through banks, and a few layers of payments before it can be shipped out of the economy.

And we can't have that. We need to just ship money directly to banks to head overseas. Don't you people understand anything?

Done in one.

HotIgneous Intruder

2012-02-03 01:20:52 PM

It's obvious that the only solution is Super Trains that roll across solid-gold track that costs a half a billion dollars per track mile.

/Never mind regular trains or public transportation, it's got to be Super Trains.

Barricaded Gunman

2012-02-03 01:21:36 PM

EvilEgg: Not to say there weren't any bridge collapses.

No, but the few we did have were hilarious.

J. Frank Parnell

2012-02-03 01:23:18 PM

Tax dollars going to things which benefit others? Sounds like socialism to me.

Big Man On Campus

2012-02-03 01:23:31 PM

The internet, subby, the internet.

Geotpf

2012-02-03 01:23:43 PM

Dalrint: I have this theory that all infrastructure spending owes itself to how well a country does the public transportation part. If people see a well organized, well run, well maintained public transportation system, then officials can go 'see how great this is? We're going to fix the energy grid next!' and everyone will get behind them because they've proven they can make something good.

Unfortunately, since the oil and car companies killed American interest in public transportation in the sixties...we're kind of boned.

The whole "GM Red Car" conspiracy theory is about 99% bullshiat, 1% truth. The simple thing is, as people get richer, they like buying cars. Cars are much more flexible than even the best transit system, with the possible exception of places with Manhattan levels of population density, especially for families, grocery shopping, etc. (Transit works okay for worker commuting during standard business hours.) Plus, buses are actually superior for both the transit user and the transit company to the old fashioned red car type of trams. All the red car type systems were already losing massive amounts of money when GM (and others) helped phase them out (replacing them with GM buses).

BitwiseShift

2012-02-03 01:23:50 PM

Bridges to sleep under. Until they fall down.

Big Man On Campus

2012-02-03 01:24:24 PM

Also, New York the cultural capital? lol, keep inflating your ego New Yorkers, lol.

Nadie_AZ

2012-02-03 01:24:53 PM

HotIgneous Intruder: It's obvious that the only solution is Super Trains that roll across solid-gold track that costs a half a billion dollars per track mile.

/Never mind regular trains or public transportation, it's got to be Super Trains.

My grandfather is against high speed rail (or any type of rail) because of those european socialists.

I'm not sure I understood. I mean, without the railroad, the US wouldn't have grown past the Mississippi.

Need Help Soonish: Nadie_AZ: God damn do we have a few generations of spoiled assholes in this country.

People can't fathom not having water come out of their faucet when it is turned on. If it doesn't, then the end of the world has come. Same with sewage and electricity.

Spend some time away from all of it (try camping with no flashlights, lanterns, propane stoves, etc if you can't utterly cut yourself off) and learn to appreciate what you have. THEN begin to see a bigger picture.

Yea well... They are far to distracted playing angry birds, and watching reality TV to try and wrap their tiny little brains around something as complicated as "Hay, where does this water come from anyways?"

Which is why your posts are always a nice shade of green. :-)

jagec

2012-02-03 01:26:23 PM

Nadie_AZ: God damn do we have a few generations of spoiled assholes in this country.

People can't fathom not having water come out of their faucet when it is turned on. If it doesn't, then the end of the world has come. Same with sewage and electricity.

Spend some time away from all of it (try camping with no flashlights, lanterns, propane stoves, etc if you can't utterly cut yourself off) and learn to appreciate what you have. THEN begin to see a bigger picture.

So what are you saying...we shouldn't bother fixing our infrastructure so that it meets the minimum standards of the rest of the first world? As long as things are better now than they were 100 years ago, we should just throw up our hands and shout Hallelujah?

What "bigger picture" are you referring to? That someone out there has it worse than we do? No shiat Sherlock, but that doesn't mean that we should just give up and never try to improve anything.

Bet I've spent much more time "away from all of it" than you ever have...

Geotpf

2012-02-03 01:28:31 PM

Bill_Wick's_Friend: When travelers from abroad come to this city, the financial and cultural capital of the world's richest nation, two dilapidated and depressing airports greet them. The clogged runways, the leaking roofs, the maddening taxi lines, the lost travelers bumping into each other -- all these depredations are just part of flying the friendly skies to JFK or LaGuardia.

I do most of my flying between LA and Vancouver.

There is NOTHING more refreshing than getting out of stinky, rude, grimy, crumbling, poorly-retrofitted-to-address-911-concerns LAX and landing two hours later in the efficient, well-designed, friendly art gallery atmosphere of YVR's international arrivals area.

That's because LAX sucks, not because American airports in general suck.

I rather like Ontario (California) airport myself (which happens to be owned by the city of LA, same as LAX). The terminal was completely rebuilt (just prior to 9/11), so, if anything, it's too big for the number of passengers served.

dustygrimp

2012-02-03 01:29:37 PM

HotIgneous Intruder: It's like we've grown too stupid, greedy, and selfish to maintain the civilization that previous generations provided for us.

This.

Dalrint

2012-02-03 01:29:39 PM

Geotpf: The whole "GM Red Car" conspiracy theory is about 99% bullshiat, 1% truth. The simple thing is, as people get richer, they like buying cars. Cars are much more flexible than even the best transit system, with the possible exception of places with Manhattan levels of population density, especially for families, grocery shopping, etc. (Transit works okay for worker commuting during standard business hours.) Plus, buses are actually superior for both the transit user and the transit company to the old fashioned red car type of trams. All the red car type systems were already losing massive amounts of money when GM (and others) helped phase them out (replacing them with GM buses).

I was thinking more along the lines that for the last fifty years, the rest of the world has been investing in their railroads and subway systems, rather than the loss of trolleys. A decent railroad and bus system can make cars entirely unnecessary for anyone that doesn't live in the middle of no where.

So of course, we have neither. And we are actively trying to destroy the ones we have...now why is that?

Nadie_AZ

2012-02-03 01:29:59 PM

jagec: Nadie_AZ: God damn do we have a few generations of spoiled assholes in this country.

People can't fathom not having water come out of their faucet when it is turned on. If it doesn't, then the end of the world has come. Same with sewage and electricity.

Spend some time away from all of it (try camping with no flashlights, lanterns, propane stoves, etc if you can't utterly cut yourself off) and learn to appreciate what you have. THEN begin to see a bigger picture.

So what are you saying...we shouldn't bother fixing our infrastructure so that it meets the minimum standards of the rest of the first world? As long as things are better now than they were 100 years ago, we should just throw up our hands and shout Hallelujah?

What "bigger picture" are you referring to? That someone out there has it worse than we do? No shiat Sherlock, but that doesn't mean that we should just give up and never try to improve anything.

Bet I've spent much more time "away from all of it" than you ever have...

*sigh*

Nooo, I mean we take what we have for granted. If we really understood what we have, we'd defend it more rigorously. I WANT a good infrastructure. But then, I understand what that means and am willing to invest in it.

beta_plus

2012-02-03 01:31:58 PM

Nadie_AZ: HotIgneous Intruder: It's obvious that the only solution is Super Trains that roll across solid-gold track that costs a half a billion dollars per track mile.

/Never mind regular trains or public transportation, it's got to be Super Trains.

My grandfather is against high speed rail (or any type of rail) because of those european socialists.

I'm not sure I understood. I mean, without the railroad, the US wouldn't have grown past the Mississippi.

Yes, let's build a super train from Minneapolis to Chicago to Cleveland to Buffalo. Never mind that THEY CAN'T HANDLE SNOW (new window). Let's forget private toll road systems because THEY'RE RACIST.

Bob16

2012-02-03 01:32:20 PM

hubiestubert: Instead of just going to intellectual property and designers and a handful of engineers and automated factory floors, the cash goes to guys who lay concrete and rebar

aka illegal immigrants that send it south of the border

Geotpf

2012-02-03 01:36:12 PM

Nadie_AZ: HotIgneous Intruder: It's obvious that the only solution is Super Trains that roll across solid-gold track that costs a half a billion dollars per track mile.

/Never mind regular trains or public transportation, it's got to be Super Trains.

My grandfather is against high speed rail (or any type of rail) because of those european socialists.

I'm not sure I understood. I mean, without the railroad, the US wouldn't have grown past the Mississippi.

I dunno. Back then, passenger railroads were the fastest way to get from A to B, and were owned by private companies (of course, there were massive government land giveaways to help them out). Now, railroads are government owned, and usually slower than airplanes (which are privately owned, although again with hidden government susidies). It's consistant at least.

ringersol

2012-02-03 01:36:50 PM

If only there were a bunch of people who we could hire without farking with private sector labor demand.
And if only there were a bunch of people so desperate for a safe investment that they'd be willing to loan us money at super-low, or even negative real interest rates.

Because, damn, if that magic confluence of events were to occur we could really fix some shiat up around here with the absolute minimum of costs and drawbacks and the maximum benefits possible.

/ there is literally no objectively better time for the US to start infrastructure projects than our exact situation
// the fact that we didn't and aren't starting them is backwards to the point of absurdity
/// the fact that we're actually *cancelling* and *cutting* such projects is outright depressing

hubiestubert

2012-02-03 01:37:59 PM

Nadie_AZ:
Nooo, I mean we take what we have for granted. If we really understood what we have, we'd defend it more rigorously. I WANT a good infrastructure. But then, I understand what that means and am willing to invest in it.

Investing in things that don't profit wildly and provide benefits to the constituents sounds a lot like socialism.

Why do you hate America, and why do you hate free enterprise? Don't you know that the bridges and roads will be taken care of as soon as trucking becomes too expensive a proposition because of broken axles? The free market will dictate when we NEED these things. Trying to prognosticate like this is playing God with the market. The market and our government rely on REACTING not being proactive. That sort of nonsense will mean that solutions will cost less, and we cannot have that. We need the government being as wasteful and sloppy in its responses to problems to maximize private profit. Your ideas may get you some credit in the Libby world, but in Real America, we rely on wasteful government spending and only as a reaction to dire problems.

When our infrastructure is on the brink of collapse, that is when it is most profitable to fix. If we save the taxpayer dollars, then we are denying our companies supping at their trough, and that just costs us jobs. Costs us jobs and dollars and interest.

One day, you Libs will understand...

Nadie_AZ

2012-02-03 01:38:27 PM

beta_plus: Nadie_AZ: HotIgneous Intruder: It's obvious that the only solution is Super Trains that roll across solid-gold track that costs a half a billion dollars per track mile.

/Never mind regular trains or public transportation, it's got to be Super Trains.

My grandfather is against high speed rail (or any type of rail) because of those european socialists.

I'm not sure I understood. I mean, without the railroad, the US wouldn't have grown past the Mississippi.

Yes, let's build a super train from Minneapolis to Chicago to Cleveland to Buffalo. Never mind that THEY CAN'T HANDLE SNOW (new window). Let's forget private toll road systems because THEY'RE RACIST.

1901:

etc.usf.edu

Because things can't be improved upon ...

chopit

2012-02-03 01:38:30 PM

He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!

Need Help Soonish

2012-02-03 01:40:31 PM

jagec: Nadie_AZ: God damn do we have a few generations of spoiled assholes in this country.

People can't fathom not having water come out of their faucet when it is turned on. If it doesn't, then the end of the world has come. Same with sewage and electricity.

Spend some time away from all of it (try camping with no flashlights, lanterns, propane stoves, etc if you can't utterly cut yourself off) and learn to appreciate what you have. THEN begin to see a bigger picture.

So what are you saying...we shouldn't bother fixing our infrastructure so that it meets the minimum standards of the rest of the first world? As long as things are better now than they were 100 years ago, we should just throw up our hands and shout Hallelujah?

What "bigger picture" are you referring to? That someone out there has it worse than we do? No shiat Sherlock, but that doesn't mean that we should just give up and never try to improve anything.

Bet I've spent much more time "away from all of it" than you ever have...

Actually, what he was getting at was "Maybe you should be more thankful about the infrastructure around you, and not biatch about your tax $$$ paying for stuff that our society needs to function"

... but thanks for playing anyways :)

Boudyro

2012-02-03 01:41:10 PM

Bob16: hubiestubert: Instead of just going to intellectual property and designers and a handful of engineers and automated factory floors, the cash goes to guys who lay concrete and rebar

aka illegal immigrants that send it south of the border

Funny thing about that, I did one of my weekly trips into the office a little while back and saw a local public works crew doing something on the side of the road. Know how I know the economy is better? There were 6 guys at that spot. 2 hispanics and 4 white guys. The hispanics were in the hole busting ass on something I couldn't see.

The white guys? Standing around the hole looking down with their hands in their pockets.

If the illegal immigrants are the ones willing to bust ass and work I say we pay them to do it. I also say if they are working we make them just plain old immigrants.

barefoot in the head

2012-02-03 01:42:18 PM

olapbill

2012-02-03 01:42:56 PM

Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing infrastructure grants is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

Need Help Soonish

2012-02-03 01:43:27 PM

Nadie_AZ:

Need Help Soonish: Nadie_AZ: God damn do we have a few generations of spoiled assholes in this country.

People can't fathom not having water come out of their faucet when it is turned on. If it doesn't, then the end of the world has come. Same with sewage and electricity.

Spend some time away from all of it (try camping with no flashlights, lanterns, propane stoves, etc if you can't utterly cut yourself off) and learn to appreciate what you have. THEN begin to see a bigger picture.

Yea well... They are far to distracted playing angry birds, and watching reality TV to try and wrap their tiny little brains around something as complicated as "Hay, where does this water come from anyways?"

Which is why your posts are always a nice shade of green. :-)

Just don't tell me what you have me farkied as!

krackpipe

2012-02-03 01:43:29 PM

Even Republican plans to freeze federal employee salaries for 3 years only apply to "non-security" positions, once again hurting infrastructure and continuing to fund the burgeoning federal security budget. Security also has the most expensive benefits package, other than executive levels. Law enforcement and surveillance needs to take freezes along with everyone else for any of these plans to work.

Geotpf

2012-02-03 01:43:52 PM

Dalrint: Geotpf: The whole "GM Red Car" conspiracy theory is about 99% bullshiat, 1% truth. The simple thing is, as people get richer, they like buying cars. Cars are much more flexible than even the best transit system, with the possible exception of places with Manhattan levels of population density, especially for families, grocery shopping, etc. (Transit works okay for worker commuting during standard business hours.) Plus, buses are actually superior for both the transit user and the transit company to the old fashioned red car type of trams. All the red car type systems were already losing massive amounts of money when GM (and others) helped phase them out (replacing them with GM buses).

I was thinking more along the lines that for the last fifty years, the rest of the world has been investing in their railroads and subway systems, rather than the loss of trolleys. A decent railroad and bus system can make cars entirely unnecessary for anyone that doesn't live in the middle of no where.

So of course, we have neither. And we are actively trying to destroy the ones we have...now why is that?

I don't think that's true. Modern light rail, heavy rail subways, and commuter trains have been expanded over recent years throughout America. Los Angeles is a good example of this-there started from nothing in 1990 to a halfway decent system today with continuing construction planned for the next few decades (with a dedicated local sale tax to fund it).

I can't think of a rail system that has significant shrunk recently, at least in track miles (as opposed to service hours or frequency). NYC's MTA has had severe budget problems recently, due to the recession, but that hasn't taken many (or any?) routes out of service.

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