If it were up to the GOP, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars would never end. Ever.

To be fair, we had a responsibility there after dismantling their government.

A government that they had asked us to help them form back when they booted the Russians out. A government that they were forced to accept without much input from the US and without really any support, when most of the factions realized would fall prey to the fractious nature of the tribes there. A government that we watched fall into the hands of Fundamentalists and clucked our tongues at for years.

After going in and kicking everything over, it was sort of up to us to put it back to rights, and then, again, we backed off the actual promise by investing so much time and effort in Iraq, and disregarding the building of a solid government in Afghanistan again.

You know what? We might have to go back, because what they have isn't going to last, and it won't trust the US on much of anything, because their long experience is that the US talks a good game, and then when it comes down to it, we would rather just skip out on the hard parts. Not the blowing up of stuff--that we'll supply the goods for, and we're supply troops to shoot their people--but on the hard parts like helping them form a lasting government.

Ultimately, we've taught the Afghan people to not trust much of what Uncle Sugar says, and the damning thing is, that's the real lesson that they sort of need to know.

Romney cannot agree with anything Obama does or says. Should he even hint at agreement his hope of winning the nom will fall apart like Newts marriages.

Those goddamn Democrats. How dare they lose a war we never had a chance in hell of winning. Just like Vietnam. Those commie loving bastards!

Aarontology: If it were up to the GOP, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars would never end. Ever.

And we'd be seriously gearing up to go into Iran, as well.

serpent_sky: Aarontology: If it were up to the GOP, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars would never end. Ever.

And we'd be seriously gearing up to go into Iran, as well.

You sad that as if it wouldn't have already happened.

It would have been a case of using Iraq as the base of operations for war with Iran. It's not as if Iraq and its people mean much to Republican chickenhawks so they'd not care about what would happen in Iraq when Iran fought back. Although let's be honest, that could still happen.

James!: Romney cannot agree with anything Obama does or says. Should he even hint at agreement his hope of winning the nom will fall apart like Newts marriages.

Are you forgetting that at one of the debates Romeny laid out an intricate, detailed, and may I say, brilliant strategy for US victory in Iraq. He said, and I quote, we could win the war over the Taliban "by beating them".

Think of that! No one, Not Darius, not Xerxes, nor Alexander, nor Ghengis Khan, or The British Empire, or the USSR, had ever been able to solve the puzzle that is conquering Afghanistan, but Mitt Romney, a clear-eyed military visionary, has finally stumbled upon it. Sheer genius in it's simplicity, something that has never been tried before: "beating them"

Wow. just Wow.

That's impressively stupid.

Magorn: James!: Romney cannot agree with anything Obama does or says. Should he even hint at agreement his hope of winning the nom will fall apart like Newts marriages.

Are you forgetting that at one of the debates Romeny laid out an intricate, detailed, and may I say, brilliant strategy for US victory in Iraq. He said, and I quote, we could win the war over the Taliban "by beating them".

Think of that! No one, Not Darius, not Xerxes, nor Alexander, nor Ghengis Khan, or The British Empire, or the USSR, had ever been able to solve the puzzle that is conquering Afghanistan, but Mitt Romney, a clear-eyed military visionary, has finally stumbled upon it. Sheer genius in it's simplicity, something that has never been tried before: "beating them"

Wow. just Wow.

Stupid 0bama has been having our soldiers shooting them, we need to replace those rifles with sticks! God, Romney is SO smart!

Karac: or just suprising our allies by having all our guys leave one random morning with no heads up?

This would be the most hilarious option

Aarontology: If it were up to the GOP, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars would never end. Ever.

Honestly, I don't think the "where" is very important to them, as long as there are brown people and/or oil.

hubiestubert: To be fair, we had a responsibility there after dismantling their government.

They never had a government to begin with. The west worked hard to help them build an inclusive government. We've spent 10 years attempting to stabilize the region as something other than a authoritarian shiathole, which appears to be the only kind of government there that is actually stable.

Karzai farked it up. The tribalists farked it up. We may not have been perfect, but we tried pretty goddamned hard. How long do we have to bang our heads against the wall?

Whatever responsibility we had to them, they weren't seriously interested in taking us up on it. After 10 years, the government there is not one iota better than when we found it.

Time to cut bait.

Yeah, Mitt, the Sec. Def. is naive about military matters. You, on the other hand, know what you're talking about. Prick.

Jackson Herring: Karac: or just suprising our allies by having all our guys leave one random morning with no heads up?

This would be the most hilarious option

The Onion has beat you to it (new window)

serpent_sky: Aarontology: If it were up to the GOP, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars would never end. Ever.

And we'd be seriously gearing up to go into Iran, as well.

Pretty much. A vote for for the GOP nominee in 2012 is a vote for another war in the Middle East.

DarwiOdrade: Honestly, I don't think the "where" is very important to them, as long as there are brown people and/or oil.

That's probably closer to the truth, actually.

Wyalt Derp: Quite right. When the President decides to withdraw from Afghanistan, it should be a surprise to everyone, including his Generals. We should sneak out in the night with our tail between our legs. That'll show them Talibans!

To be fair, I think when the C-130s start rolling, I think the Afghanis would figure it out...

unyon: hubiestubert: To be fair, we had a responsibility there after dismantling their government.

They never had a government to begin with. The west worked hard to help them build an inclusive government. We've spent 10 years attempting to stabilize the region as something other than a authoritarian shiathole, which appears to be the only kind of government there that is actually stable.

Karzai farked it up. The tribalists farked it up. We may not have been perfect, but we tried pretty goddamned hard. How long do we have to bang our heads against the wall?

Whatever responsibility we had to them, they weren't seriously interested in taking us up on it. After 10 years, the government there is not one iota better than when we found it.

Time to cut bait.

I hate that this keeps getting to be the accepted wisdom. Afghanistan before the war with the USSR was a fairly advanced and cultured place. 30+ years of constant infighting have brought it to the level that they are now.

Because the Taliban, probably aided by Pakistan's intelligence agency, would not notice U.S. troops initially shutting down the more remote outposts and consolidating at the major FOBs and LSAs, and they certainly won't notice the logistics boys and girls packing up and shipping shiat home by the millions of tons.

Or the Afghan National Army suddenly getting an infusion of all the stuff that's not worth shipping back to the States. Nope. They're the dumbest motherfarkers on the planet, yet they managed to hold off the combined forces of farking NATO for eleven goddamn years.

The First Four Katy Perry Albums: I keep hearing people repeat the idea that "no one has ever conquered Afghanistan" and specifically that Alexander I of Macedon tried and failed, which is patently false.

He did try & fail, dear child, more or less. (Afghanistan wasn't a unified nation back then.) Genghis Khan defeated them pretty decisively when they were the Khwarezem Empire--but he did it by invading the entire empire from north to south and razing every city he came across to the ground. That's about the only way it can be done. Great Britain never found a way to do it, back when they were really "great"; and of course the Soviets got fought to a standstill by the Taliban and the Northern Alliance + plenty of extra arms & money from the US.

Afghanistan is just one of those places where the people are mean and gritty and the land is mean and gritty, and unless an invader is willing to practice genocide and a total scorched-earth policy, he just can't conquer it. And genocide/scorched earth hasn't been quite the thing since the Great Khan turned loose his hordes.

Blairr: Another article from that book (I believe the chapter was written by the former leader of the Northern Alliance, the book is really authorative) talks about how the conventional wisdom for the Afghani people is that they'll be abandoned by USA once the war becomes unpopular, but the Taliban will always be there. So that most Afghanis would only pay lip-service to the USA while they would never slight the Taliban.

It talks about how Afghanistan was the battleground for the superpowers during the Cold War, and once the Cold War ended, both powers fled Afghanistan as Afghanistan descended into civil-war.

They're very wary of siding with foreigner powers against the domestic powers.

I say we stick it out.

Good. Off you go!