JackieRabbit: A $450 fee for being stupid doesn't sound unreasonable. Renouncing your citizenship is as moronic as seeking de-baptism. Don't want to be an American anymore? Fine; emigrate to another country and become a citizen there. No one will ever know.

Except that your tax liabilities to America won't go away...America's one of the few countries in the world where I can live in, say, Denmark for 365 days of the year, work in Denmark, get paid in Danishes or Euros or whatever they use, pay taxes to the gov't of Denmark....and still owe taxes to the IRS.

There was an article on Fark not long ago about people in Canada / Britain / etc. discovering later in life that they were US citizens by virtue of having an American parent, and - surprise! - they also owed about 30 years in back taxes and penalties, even though some of them had never set foot in the USA. For a lot of them it was easier to just renounce their US citizenship.

America, love it or leave it.

Hee, hee, hee, hee, hee.

See, Obama can even fark up the American citizen's God-given right to the fantasy of renouncing his citizenship and moving to Paris (or Canada, if liberal) because the USA is ruined forever by the election of a scalliwag of the Other Party.

Has the man no shame? Does he never blush?

Americans are a funny, funny people. No wonder people of a satiric or comedic bent make a beeline for the Good Ole Ewe Ass of Eh whenever possible.

I have posted this quotation before, but I really love P.T. Barnum, who is one of my favourite Americans, so I'll post this quotation from his wonderful (free) book Humbugs of the World again:

But need I explain to my own beloved countrymen that there is humbug in politics? Does anybody go
into a political campaign without it? are no exaggerations of our candidate's merits to be allowed? no depreciations of the other candidate? Shall we no longer prove that the success of the party
opposed to us will overwhelm the land in ruin? Let me see. Leaving out the two elections of General Washington, eighteen times that very fact has been proved by the party that was beaten, and immediately we have not been ruined, notwithstanding that the dreadful fatal fellows on the other side got their hands on the offices and their fingers into the treasury.
Humbugs of the World at http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/26640

Where do Canadians run to when the country is ruined? Apparently the answer is Ottawa. But seriously, we have our pick of countries. We can run to the USA, the UK, France, Costa something or other, Cuba, Russia, China, or even South Africa. Canadians have the habit of turning up everywhere. If we don't blend into the woodwork quietly and invisibly, like some kind of Body Snatchers from Outer Space, you can spot us wherever white people go to get away from their white people problems. You can occasionally even spot a black one by his accent, which isn't quite here or there and thus by a process of elimination, must be Canadian.

Of course, Canada is ruined annually by the seasons, so there is a large annual migration to the South until it is fixed again three or four months later. Canadians are natural born migrants. That's why our national bird is the Canada Goose and can be found crapping on lawns from Moose Factory to Chihuahua.

Sorry. Should have proof-read that. Didn't take out all the hard-returns.

But need I explain to my own beloved countrymen that there is humbug in politics? Does anybody go into a political campaign without it? are no exaggerations of our candidate's merits to be allowed? no depreciations of the other candidate? Shall we no longer prove that the success of the party opposed to us will overwhelm the land in ruin? Let me see. Leaving out the two elections of General Washington, eighteen times that very fact has been proved by the party that was beaten, and immediately we have not been ruined, notwithstanding that the dreadful fatal fellows on the other side got their hands on the offices and their fingers into the treasury.

Carth: vpb: Not really. Most people who renounce US citizenship do it for tax purposes, so $450 is nothing for them and it does take time to process.

They still have the right to refuse to allow you to renounce your citizenship if they think you're doing it for tax purposes.

No they don't. The only way they can refuse to allow you to renounce citizenship is if you are mentally ill or they think you are not serious. There are ways to do it without filing the $450.

schief2: brantgoose: It was just a thought. As a Canadian I don't expect anybody to actually listen to my natterings.

Please. As a Canadian you know we'll listen politely to your natterings and then do whatever we were going to anyway.

/have you marked now as "nattering but usually insightful Canuck"

Hey, I keed. I kid because, because ... well, because it's pretty nearly impossible for me not to joke. I'd keep my mouth shut more often if I could, but I inherited it from both sides of the family and many different nationalities. Fortunately I don't live under a really nasty dictatorship. Canada's parliamentary first-past-the-post system is a nice dictatorship. Prime Ministers behave themselves because they know they will not be killed when we chuck them from office. We're not that merciful.

schief2: JackieRabbit: A $450 fee for being stupid doesn't sound unreasonable. Renouncing your citizenship is as moronic as seeking de-baptism. Don't want to be an American anymore? Fine; emigrate to another country and become a citizen there. No one will ever know.

Except that your tax liabilities to America won't go away...America's one of the few countries in the world where I can live in, say, Denmark for 365 days of the year, work in Denmark, get paid in Danishes or Euros or whatever they use, pay taxes to the gov't of Denmark....and still owe taxes to the IRS.

There was an article on Fark not long ago about people in Canada / Britain / etc. discovering later in life that they were US citizens by virtue of having an American parent, and - surprise! - they also owed about 30 years in back taxes and penalties, even though some of them had never set foot in the USA. For a lot of them it was easier to just renounce their US citizenship.

If you pay taxes to a foreign government you deduct that from what you owe to the IRS. The only way you would owe US taxes is if you live in a country where taxation is lower than in the US, which wouldn't be very likely if you live in Denmark.

dababler: What if you renounce your citizenship but don't have a country to go to?

That's when you start to hope that Tom Hanks plays you in the movie.

It isn't easy being a person without a country. Many countries won't let you in, others won't let you out, and you'd best avoid international airports altogether or you could be stuck for twenty years in between stops. Mind you, the wait times between flights have been getting longer any way, but twenty years is ridiculous.

I believe that you can be "a citizen of the world", insofar as the United Nations can grant you papers equivalent to a passport. You might get a job as a diplomat I suppose--if they give you a diplomatic passport you have even better protection than an ordinary citizen. It is recommended that officials traveling do so on an official passport which is in between a private passport and a diplomatic passport. In Canada, the three types are blue, green and red respectively, red being the official colour of the Crown.

Members of the British Royal family are special. Some are doubly so. I know the Queen does not need a passport. I assume some other members do not also, although lesser family members (those outside of the line of succession) are ordinary people for the most part. The line of succession stops at number 22 or 23. The next fellow in line was an American disk jockey at one time. I don't know if he is still alive or not. There will be no King Ralph, I am afraid, because politics and protocol simply will not allow a commoner to become the Sovereign while there's a royal person somewhere who can step in to the job (with or without a lifetime of training for it).

Carth: vpb: Carth: vpb: Not really. Most people who renounce US citizenship do it for tax purposes, so $450 is nothing for them and it does take time to process.

They still have the right to refuse to allow you to renounce your citizenship if they think you're doing it for tax purposes.

No they don't. The only way they can refuse to allow you to renounce citizenship is if you are mentally ill or they think you are not serious. There are ways to do it without filing the $450.

I was under the impression that changed in 1996 with the Reed Amendment on immigration reform (the one that also bars people who renounce for tax purposes from ever reentering the US). Just because up to now they haven't decided to enforce it doesn't mean they can't start.

If they can prove that you renounced citizenship solely for tax evasion reasons, then the IRS can tax you for up to 10 years in theory, but you can still renounce citizenship. I don't know how something like that could proved, or enforced, but the law is there.

The map posted by this text is now purple, above, is interesting and probably does reflect the economic crisis (and poltical problems) of Europe, but you have to bear in mind that most of the movement in Europe is between European countries.

Quite a few of the Irish may be moving to the States, as many Irish dream of doing even in good times, because that's where it is at, supposedly, or because taxes in the USA are about as low as they can get and still pay for good governance and good welfare statism (American government health care costs more than Canadian government health care, and so does the private health care--nobody spends more).

The problems in Turkey have always been different. Turkey was long famous as the Sick Man of Europe and it is still the Odd Man Out of Europe despite some major attempts at Europeanization of its politics, culture and economy. Turkey desperately wants to be European. In fact, they want to be European so much they are moving to France, Italy, anywhere they can.

You don't need to keep people in "socialist" countries with guns. You just have to make sure you socialize a rich, rich country and keep it rich by working hard, playing hard, and planning conservatively. The social democracies in Europe are surprisingly liberal and democratic (if you are a conservative you'll be surprised by the facts, and probably deny them). That is how socialism is supposed to work. You are supposed to be free, hard-working, honest, prudent, cooperative and above all the owners of the means of production, namely the land, the capital, the cash and the political power.

America is a lot like the socialist utopia that Edward Bellamy imagined in his utopian novel of anticipation, Looking Backwards. Not exactly like, but the socialism that Bellamy thought was the best system of government is very much the "socialism" Americans have and practice with such vigour and partisan spite.

Decisions are made collectively by all kinds of voluntary associations, from Ma and Pa companies to corporate hegemonies. Innumerable pressure groups for each and every position or idea going plead and jockey for funding. If you have an idea, you can make it happen with the help of enough of your fellow citizens. If you have the money, you can spend it as you please, more or less, whether you want "free" health care or a company play room with pool tables and pinball machines.

I do not share the American contempt for Europe nor do I shall the European contempt for America. I am an equal opportunity mocker and will makes jokes about whoever is out of the room at the time. And very likely anybody who isn't.

America works quite well, sort of, and so does Europe, in a way, and even Canada doesn't suck too badly, most of the time. Turkey, of course, still needs a lot of work, and it's a shame about Ireland, but they did put too many eggs in their little basket without paying for them.

A lot of the movement between European countries is now retirees. You should bear that in mind while you look at your map. The more money people have, the more likely they are to retire far away, where land and living are cheaper, but also warmer and sunnier, or perhaps closer to the ski hills.

Headso: chookbillion: I would have to pay US taxes thenceforth? Curious, because I'm considering doing just that. Doesn't sound like such a good idea now.

IIRC you start paying income taxes after you make more than 100 grand and then on top of that you can write off like 100 grand for rent/housing and bunch of other stuff. but I could be wrong.

As an american ex-pat, the cap is 90k.

A regular joe can't deduct rent/housing, I think you can only do that if you've been relocated for work or something.

You can deduct the taxes you paid in the other country as per a treaty, it was a little confusing when I did mine last year.

Alphager: This text is now purple: TrojanRabbit:
Wow, are any existing European social democracies having to impede a mass exodus at the moment?

[upload.wikimedia.org image 500x382]

Other than France and Ireland, yes.

Bullshiat. Germany's population decline is because of the steadily declining birth-rate, not because of emigrants. Same thing is happening all over Europe.

White People Problems.


/*snicker*
//c'mon, that's funny right there

dababler: What if you renounce your citizenship but don't have a country to go to?

STATICFREE: Having lived outside the states for some 16 years, I have no intention of returning there to live. I can't get work outside the country easily unless I change my citizenship to a country represented within the EU. So, renunciation has a big pain in the ass because Denmark doesn't recognize dual citizens and therefore require the person to renounce their current citizenship before applying for a Danish one. Alright, I made the choice to do so. But the hurdles I need to go through beforehand make the process long and overall an unpleasant experience.

Not only that, what I found out for the first time during 2011 was that I need to report my income to the IRS? Why? I never worked or paid taxes to the American government, so why do they need to know what I make outside the country? I moved away when I was 11, why do I need to send them info on money they're never getting? It's illegal to renounce my citizenship to avoid paying taxes? Well, fark you! I have no obligation to the USA, and never will.

It's difficult enough knowing that I'll be without a citizenship of any country for a little while. But the hassle of setting up appointments just to give something up, and now incurring a fee that they should have no business taking... Well, fark you!

Could you recommend a recruitment agency that woud help another US American to find opportunities in Denmark? I for one am searching for a country with sane people who have functional infrastructure and realize taxes are the price of civilization. I'm tired of 50 year old crumbling infrastructure, choking between bankruptcy or healthcare, modern transportation options, and a sence of civility. The rednecks and hillbillies have ruined the place. The South actually won.

Jeg ka' taler tysk, fransk, og lidt dansk.

6655321: Honest Bender: Why is the government even allowed to levy fees? That's what taxes are for.


Taxes are the mandatory payment to the government to provide the services required by law. Fees are the so called voluntary payment for what the public wants and the government is not required to provide.

That makes total sense. Though, I'm kinda shocked to receive a rational and coherent reply on Fark. Good on ya', dude.

lohphat: STATICFREE: Having lived outside the states for some 16 years, I have no intention of returning there to live. I can't get work outside the country easily unless I change my citizenship to a country represented within the EU. So, renunciation has a big pain in the ass because Denmark doesn't recognize dual citizens and therefore require the person to renounce their current citizenship before applying for a Danish one. Alright, I made the choice to do so. But the hurdles I need to go through beforehand make the process long and overall an unpleasant experience.

Not only that, what I found out for the first time during 2011 was that I need to report my income to the IRS? Why? I never worked or paid taxes to the American government, so why do they need to know what I make outside the country? I moved away when I was 11, why do I need to send them info on money they're never getting? It's illegal to renounce my citizenship to avoid paying taxes? Well, fark you! I have no obligation to the USA, and never will.

It's difficult enough knowing that I'll be without a citizenship of any country for a little while. But the hassle of setting up appointments just to give something up, and now incurring a fee that they should have no business taking... Well, fark you!

Could you recommend a recruitment agency that woud help another US American to find opportunities in Denmark? I for one am searching for a country with sane people who have functional infrastructure and realize taxes are the price of civilization. I'm tired of 50 year old crumbling infrastructure, choking between bankruptcy or healthcare, modern transportation options, and a sence of civility. The rednecks and hillbillies have ruined the place. The South actually won.

Jeg ka' taler tysk, fransk, og lidt dansk.

Were your grandparents EU citizens? If so you could easily get a work or school visa even though you aren't an official citizen.

Also the easiest way to immigrant to Canada is:

-School visa
-Post grad work permit allows you to work without issue
-Work for 2 years
-Apply for Permanent residency via Canadian Experience class (they want smart people in the country so they make it simple).

It's the way I'm doing it.

This new policy is a joke though, since the US dollar tanked it's now profitable to go after dual citizens and charge them insane fees for not filing.

They are also going after non-US spouses for their income because it's joint property. My fiancee and I are going to have to be very careful in the future, anyone know a good place to go for tax and financial advice in Toronto?