FTA: Mr Von Kyaw admits that Germany's government "really sinned". Well, "not a real sin" he adds - Germany just "flexibilised the schedules."

And we have a DOUBLESPEAK winner!

European countries are like small children. With proper guidance, they can do some pretty amazing stuff; but you really have to watch them.

Fark_Guy_Rob: European countries are like small children. With proper guidance, they can do some pretty amazing stuff; but you really have to watch them.

The country you really have to watch is america.

Take your eye off them and they massacre whole countries just for shiats and giggles

TA-DA!

Bob16: Fark_Guy_Rob: European countries are like small children. With proper guidance, they can do some pretty amazing stuff; but you really have to watch them.

The country you really have to watch is america.

Take your eye off them and they massacre whole countries just for shiats and giggles

Exactly, so lemme give you two examples: German and Japan.

Goldman Sachs Disease.

The blue social model is unsustainable, and Greece is Exhibit A. It turns out there's not even enough money in all of Europe to finance a European welfare state. Which Mary Steyn has been noting for a long time.

In other news, California is about to run out of money. Gee, how did that happen?

LawrencePerson: The blue social model is unsustainable, and Greece is Exhibit A. It turns out there's not even enough money in all of Europe to finance a European welfare state. Which Mary Steyn has been noting for a long time.

In other news, California is about to run out of money. Gee, how did that happen?

And neither of your thread shiatting examples has anything to do with lying about debt to gain admittance to the EU. The bankers cooked Greece's books so it could join because it's all win-win to them.

WRONG Subby.
It involves The Final Countdown

Debt based money does this. Here's how it works: Private banks great money out of thin air. That money has to be paid back with interest. Where does the interest come from? More invented money. This drives inflation and consolidate money into fewer and fewer hands (increase wealth disparity). Then when the banks are feeling frisky they crush the currency, making people default on their loans. Then they buy all the assets used at collateral. They did this in the Great Depression. They caused it. It didn't just HAPPEN. It was a land grab.

Here's another thing they do. When your country is about to go under because you can't pay the absurd interest rates, they take your stuff. In the case of Greece they are trying to make all the roads toll roads. In poor countries the banks make loans so the country can develop some natural resource with the resource itself as collateral. Then the inevitable happens (it's part of the plan)... they default. The bank takes the resource ensuring that country will NEVER get out of debt.

A global wipe of sovereign debt would be great. We pay something like $300B per year on the INTEREST on the national debt. If we passed the Monetary Reform Act that debt would vanish and we could reduce taxes dramatically or keep them as they are to have our cake and eat it too. Liberals and conservatives could have all their favorite causes funded.

This isn't tin foil hat stuff. All of this is well documented. Get your own citations.

Google: Money as Debt, the Money Masters, Confessions of a Corporate Hitman

apeiron242: Debt based money does this. Here's how it works: Private banks great money out of thin air. That money has to be paid back with interest. Where does the interest come from? More invented money. This drives inflation and consolidate money into fewer and fewer hands (increase wealth disparity). Then when the banks are feeling frisky they crush the currency, making people default on their loans. Then they buy all the assets used at collateral. They did this in the Great Depression. They caused it. It didn't just HAPPEN. It was a land grab.

Here's another thing they do. When your country is about to go under because you can't pay the absurd interest rates, they take your stuff. In the case of Greece they are trying to make all the roads toll roads. In poor countries the banks make loans so the country can develop some natural resource with the resource itself as collateral. Then the inevitable happens (it's part of the plan)... they default. The bank takes the resource ensuring that country will NEVER get out of debt.

A global wipe of sovereign debt would be great. We pay something like $300B per year on the INTEREST on the national debt. If we passed the Monetary Reform Act that debt would vanish and we could reduce taxes dramatically or keep them as they are to have our cake and eat it too. Liberals and conservatives could have all their favorite causes funded.

This isn't tin foil hat stuff. All of this is well documented. Get your own citations.

Google: Money as Debt, the Money Masters, Confessions of a Corporate Hitman

Absolutely laughably incorrect. Real tinfoil hat nonsense. If inflation occurred like you say the real value of the debt would diminish, reducing the burden to debtors and..... oh never mind.

HotIgneous Intruder: The bankers cooked Greece's books at Greece's request so it could join because it's all win-win to them.

I don't care where you are on the political spectrum, Greece is not an unwitting victim of someone else's avarice. (new window) They thoroughly farked themselves right up the ass and asked for help doing so.

Sure Greece, we'll just put your money into a spread of securities-based accounts aaaaand IT'S GONE!

LawrencePerson: In other news, California is about to run out of money. Gee, how did that happen?

Funny how conservatives are so convinced that everyone is leaving CA and the state is going to go bankrupt, yet neither of those ever happens. Life must be really easy for people who shut reality out of their brains entirely.

Goldman Sach's is behind most of it. They're responsible for most of the mess the world is in today.

Lending merry-go-round (new window)

apeiron242: Debt based money does this. Here's how it works: Private banks great money out of thin air. That money has to be paid back with interest. Where does the interest come from? More invented money. This drives inflation and consolidate money into fewer and fewer hands (increase wealth disparity). Then when the banks are feeling frisky they crush the currency, making people default on their loans. Then they buy all the assets used at collateral. They did this in the Great Depression. They caused it. It didn't just HAPPEN. It was a land grab.

Here's another thing they do. When your country is about to go under because you can't pay the absurd interest rates, they take your stuff. In the case of Greece they are trying to make all the roads toll roads. In poor countries the banks make loans so the country can develop some natural resource with the resource itself as collateral. Then the inevitable happens (it's part of the plan)... they default. The bank takes the resource ensuring that country will NEVER get out of debt.

A global wipe of sovereign debt would be great. We pay something like $300B per year on the INTEREST on the national debt. If we passed the Monetary Reform Act that debt would vanish and we could reduce taxes dramatically or keep them as they are to have our cake and eat it too. Liberals and conservatives could have all their favorite causes funded.

This isn't tin foil hat stuff. All of this is well documented. Get your own citations.

Google: Money as Debt, the Money Masters, Confessions of a Corporate Hitman

Why just stop with sovereign debt? Just erase all debt private and public, and then outlaw the creation of new debt. And just like that :poof: the system is reset.

I can't think of a single bad thing that would happen.

LawrencePerson: The blue social model is unsustainable, and Greece is Exhibit A. It turns out there's not even enough money in all of Europe to finance a European welfare state. Which Mary Steyn has been noting for a long time.

In other news, California is about to run out of money. Gee, how did that happen?

So let's be like Canada and Australia then. Deal?

: apeiron242: Debt based money does this. Here's how it works: Private banks great money out of thin air. That money has to be paid back with interest. Where does the interest come from? More invented money. ....

Debeo Summa Credo Absolutely laughably incorrect. Real tinfoil hat nonsense. If inflation occurred like you say the real value of the debt would diminish, reducing the burden to debtors and..... oh never mind.

Now hold on, I have asked my econ professors about this and they could never even understand my question or would reply with more money, so please help me to understand (being serious and not snarky).

A gov't borrows $100 from a private bank and promises to pay $5 interest on the money. Where does the gov't get the extra $5?

Another loan of $5 on which you pay $0.25 interest? okay, but where do you then get the extra $0.25?

Now, I realize one could repeat this to infinity which will eventually result in zero interest, but why would a bank do this, if in the end they make no profit?

MrEricSir: LawrencePerson: In other news, California is about to run out of money. Gee, how did that happen?

Funny how conservatives are so convinced that everyone is leaving CA and the state is going to go bankrupt, yet neither of those ever happens. Life must be really easy for people who shut reality out of their brains entirely.

[citation needed]

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: Goldman Sach's is behind most of it. They're responsible for most of the mess the world is in today.

Hysterical! Somebody needs to make a shop of that insane guy in the straight jacket but replace 'LIBS LIBS LIBS' with "Goldman Sachs Goldman Sachs Goldman Sachs"

LawrencePerson: The blue social model is unsustainable, and Greece is Exhibit A. It turns out there's not even enough money in all of Europe to finance a European welfare state. Which Mary Steyn has been noting for a long time.

In other news, California is about to run out of money. Gee, how did that happen?

The people set limits on property tax increases and even rolled back taxes by popular vote. Oh wait, you're just stupid not actually ignorant.

\California is more tax unfriendly than most of the country. Here in NV we don't like tax increases, but we allow them rather than go completely under.

LawrencePerson: The blue social model is unsustainable, and Greece is Exhibit A. It turns out there's not even enough money in all of Europe to finance a European welfare state. Which Mary Steyn has been noting for a long time.

In other news, California is about to run out of money. Gee, how did that happen?

If fark has taught me anything, its that somehow all of California's problems stem not from overspending, undertaxation, or ridiculous politics, but rather from Goldman Sachs.

scandalrag: LawrencePerson: The blue social model is unsustainable, and Greece is Exhibit A. It turns out there's not even enough money in all of Europe to finance a European welfare state. Which Mary Steyn has been noting for a long time.

In other news, California is about to run out of money. Gee, how did that happen?

The people set limits on property tax increases and even rolled back taxes by popular vote. Oh wait, you're just stupid not actually ignorant.

\California is more tax unfriendly than most of the country. Here in NV we don't like tax increases, but we allow them rather than go completely under.

California has raised income tax and sales tax more than a half dozen times in the past decade to combat deficits. Our latest round of taxes just expired. I went from 9.75% sales tax to 8.75% sales tax and 9.55% income tax at ~45k to 9.30%. State sales tax is the highest in the nation and we have the highest income tax bracket at the lowest marginal rate. We will probably be voting on another round this election cycle.

bhcompy: State sales tax is the highest in the nation and we have the highest income tax bracket at the lowest marginal rate.

Both of which are strong conservative positions, which makes all the crowing from conservatives about CA being low on cash all the more puzzling.

Lost Thought 00: bhcompy: State sales tax is the highest in the nation and we have the highest income tax bracket at the lowest marginal rate.

Both of which are strong conservative positions, which makes all the crowing from conservatives about CA being low on cash all the more puzzling.

It also makes liberal denials that California's problems are due to overspending all the more ridiculous.

Debeo Summa Credo: It also makes liberal denials that California's problems are due to overspending all the more ridiculous.

Right, because it's not like Republicans irresponsibly cut taxes without reducing spending. It's not like Republicans would ever create debt, then turn around and blame it on the other party.

"We always saw the head of the statistical agency of Greece, who compiled all the statistics on the debt, the deficit and so on."

He was "the magician" who made inflation and the deficit "disappear".

I think this guy must be working for the California state government these days, writing the budget. Somehow it's always 'balanced' when the budget is passed, then 6 (or 8, or 12 or ...) billion in the hole by mid fiscal year. It's almost as if it was a work of fiction from the start, but that's crazy talk of course.

LawrencePerson: In other news, California is about to run out of money. Gee, how did that happen?

It required 3/4 of the congress to change the budget. That, and they haven't been collecting enough property tax because of prop 13, making the state budget more vulnerable to boom/bust economic cycles.

MrEricSir: Debeo Summa Credo: It also makes liberal denials that California's problems are due to overspending all the more ridiculous.

Right, because it's not like Republicans irresponsibly cut taxes without reducing spending. It's not like Republicans would ever create debt, then turn around and blame it on the other party.

Whoever's fault it is, it is, whether that be the Dems or the GOP The fact of the matter is California has very high taxes relative to other states but is still in a worse fiscal position than most other states. The only other variable that can explain that is spending.

Debeo Summa Credo: Whoever's fault it is, it is, whether that be the Dems or the GOP The fact of the matter is California has very high taxes relative to other states but is still in a worse fiscal position than most other states. The only other variable that can explain that is spending.

You do realize that the money gets spent on stuff, right? There's a reason CA's economy is larger than any other state's economy. It's not like CA has nothing to show for it.

Now as for the "worse fiscal position" thing, that's highly misleading. You're talking about a AA- vs. AAA bond ratings. Comparing California to Greece is unbelievably ignorant.

quizzical: LawrencePerson: In other news, California is about to run out of money. Gee, how did that happen?

It required 3/4 of the congress to change the budget. That, and they haven't been collecting enough property tax because of prop 13, making the state budget more vulnerable to boom/bust economic cycles.

California is 10th in median property tax collections per owner occupied housing, 15th as a percentage of income, and 14th per capita. We do not have a property tax collection problem.

MrEricSir: Debeo Summa Credo: Whoever's fault it is, it is, whether that be the Dems or the GOP The fact of the matter is California has very high taxes relative to other states but is still in a worse fiscal position than most other states. The only other variable that can explain that is spending.

You do realize that the money gets spent on stuff, right? There's a reason CA's economy is larger than any other state's economy. It's not like CA has nothing to show for it.

Now as for the "worse fiscal position" thing, that's highly misleading. You're talking about a AA- vs. AAA bond ratings. Comparing California to Greece is unbelievably ignorant.

In terms of the perennial deficit, we are definitely in a "worse fiscal position" if not the "worst fiscal position." Who else has had perennial multibillion dollar deficits every year for a decade? We can already cross out the vast majority of states, since the vast majority of them haven't had it that bad for this long. Which means that "worse fiscal position" is highly accurate

ltdanman44: Lending merry-go-round (new window)

Yeah, but they haven't got it.

/love Clark and Dawe

If CA is in so much trouble, why are their 20+ yer bond yields and General Obligation debt (going out 20+ years) still under a 5% yield-to-maturity?

People need to be shot for this shiat.

LawrencePerson: The blue social model is unsustainable, and Greece is Exhibit A. It turns out there's not even enough money in all of Europe to finance a European welfare state. Which Mary Steyn has been noting for a long time.

In other news, California is about to run out of money. Gee, how did that happen?

So is Texas. What's your point?

Quagdingo: If CA is in so much trouble, why are their 20+ yer bond yields and General Obligation debt (going out 20+ years) still under a 5% yield-to-maturity?

Because it's illegal for a state to file for bankruptcy. I'm just waiting for the point the federal government turns down a bailout on the state despite bailing out a few industries to the tune of a shiatton more money a few years ago, that, or the state refuses to pay the billions in federal funds it pays every year that it never gets back and bills the federal government for care of illegal aliens, which was last estimated over 10b/yr. With those funds we'd have a surplus.

HotIgneous Intruder: LawrencePerson: The blue social model is unsustainable, and Greece is Exhibit A. It turns out there's not even enough money in all of Europe to finance a European welfare state. Which Mary Steyn has been noting for a long time.

In other news, California is about to run out of money. Gee, how did that happen?

And neither of your thread shiatting examples has anything to do with lying about debt to gain admittance to the EU. The bankers cooked Greece's books so it could join because it's all win-win to them.

What do you want to bet he's a member of a public service union?

Jesus Christ! Why is BASIC finance so farking hard for governments?!

X-Y>=Z

X = How much money you have RIGHT NOW. Not how much you think you'll have. Or how much you want to have.

Y = How much money you are going to spend. Not how much you think you're going to spend.

Z = How much you have left over at the year. Keep it above zero. If you go negative you're doing something wrong.

Is that really so hard? Really? I know we all want to give money to the less fortunate and all, but that's NOT what the government is for. When Z starts to go negative, you immediately cut the budget of anything not related to basic governmental responsibilities.

WHY?! Why is this so hard! Just stop spending money you don't farking have!!!

/I need a drink :-(

bhcompy: Quagdingo: If CA is in so much trouble, why are their 20+ yer bond yields and General Obligation debt (going out 20+ years) still under a 5% yield-to-maturity?

Because it's illegal for a state to file for bankruptcy. I'm just waiting for the point the federal government turns down a bailout on the state despite bailing out a few industries to the tune of a shiatton more money a few years ago, that, or the state refuses to pay the billions in federal funds it pays every year that it never gets back and bills the federal government for care of illegal aliens, which was last estimated over 10b/yr. With those funds we'd have a surplus.

Indeed. I will start to panic when I see those yields rise and it has nothing to do with market yields for equiv. debt.

Hyjamon: : apeiron242: Debt based money does this. Here's how it works: Private banks great money out of thin air. That money has to be paid back with interest. Where does the interest come from? More invented money. ....

Debeo Summa Credo Absolutely laughably incorrect. Real tinfoil hat nonsense. If inflation occurred like you say the real value of the debt would diminish, reducing the burden to debtors and..... oh never mind.

Now hold on, I have asked my econ professors about this and they could never even understand my question or would reply with more money, so please help me to understand (being serious and not snarky).

A gov't borrows $100 from a private bank and promises to pay $5 interest on the money. Where does the gov't get the extra $5?

Another loan of $5 on which you pay $0.25 interest? okay, but where do you then get the extra $0.25?

Now, I realize one could repeat this to infinity which will eventually result in zero interest, but why would a bank do this, if in the end they make no profit?

Banks create money and destroy it.

Phil McKraken:

Banks create money and destroy it lives.

FTFY.

bhcompy: Quagdingo: If CA is in so much trouble, why are their 20+ yer bond yields and General Obligation debt (going out 20+ years) still under a 5% yield-to-maturity?

Because it's illegal for a state to file for bankruptcy. I'm just waiting for the point the federal government turns down a bailout on the state despite bailing out a few industries to the tune of a shiatton more money a few years ago, that, or the state refuses to pay the billions in federal funds it pays every year that it never gets back and bills the federal government for care of illegal aliens, which was last estimated over 10b/yr. With those funds we'd have a surplus.

There's nothing stopping a state, or anybody else, for that matter, from stopping paying interest on debt, bankruptcy be damned.

Anyhoo CA, long term, is fine. CA survived the 90s and idiotic governors back then. The weather's just too farking nice.

Hyjamon: : apeiron242: Debt based money does this. Here's how it works: Private banks great money out of thin air. That money has to be paid back with interest. Where does the interest come from? More invented money. ....

Debeo Summa Credo Absolutely laughably incorrect. Real tinfoil hat nonsense. If inflation occurred like you say the real value of the debt would diminish, reducing the burden to debtors and..... oh never mind.

Now hold on, I have asked my econ professors about this and they could never even understand my question or would reply with more money, so please help me to understand (being serious and not snarky).

A gov't borrows $100 from a private bank and promises to pay $5 interest on the money. Where does the gov't get the extra $5?

Another loan of $5 on which you pay $0.25 interest? okay, but where do you then get the extra $0.25?

Now, I realize one could repeat this to infinity which will eventually result in zero interest, but why would a bank do this, if in the end they make no profit?

Time. In various forms, time is the explanation.

Given your example, the very easy answer is that government deficit spending will be financed by increased taxes on later generations. But I think you wanted a more detailed explanation of where the money to pay interest comes from, given a fixed money pool.

The problem is the assumption of a fixed money pool. The premise of the Money as Debt vid is basically that banks create $1k by loaning money, but then want to be paid back $1050 ... so where does the $50 "interest" portion come from? But that premise ignores the fact that the value of money changes. Money is basically a "score" reflecting the value of "stuff" in the economy. If a loan increases the amount of "stuff" by more than the initial purchase rate, then the interest comes out of that extra value that was created. One example would be getting a loan for a degree: if you chose wisely, the interest payments come out of extra earning power that wouldn't have existed if you didn't get the loan in the first place. Or borrowing to buy a cheap car, so that you can get to work.

A large proportion of borrowed dollars are actually invested: spent on something that will add value in the long run. Anything of that nature avoids the whole "where'd the interest come from?" dilemma, by adding long-term value to the economy that outweighs the initial purchase price.

But some loan dollars are pure consumption: e.g., borrowing to buy a larger TV, or to buy a flashy car etc. So how does that work? It works because interest is basically a fee you pay so that you can consume NOW rather than later. That isn't a fixed value: everyone will have a different idea of how much they'll pay for immediate gratification vs how patient they'll be in delaying a purchase. Banks move money from the patient ones, who are saving up for something, to the ones who want to buy immediately. By doing that, they add value to the economy, in pretty much the same way supermarkets add value by efficiently moving food from the farmers (who have a surplus) to consumers (who are hungry). Sure, they skim some profits off the top of the transaction: but they make money and add value by providing a more efficient way to move things from one sector to another. That's another time issue. I'd rather pay 50% more at the supermarket, than waste time driving from farmer to farmer. I'd rather park my savings in the bank and earn a small interest rate than search through 100's of direct loan applications and find someone I trust to lend money to.

This is a pretty good link that explains it better than I can. Link (new window)

HotIgneous Intruder: LawrencePerson: The blue social model is unsustainable, and Greece is Exhibit A. It turns out there's not even enough money in all of Europe to finance a European welfare state. Which Mary Steyn has been noting for a long time.

In other news, California is about to run out of money. Gee, how did that happen?

And neither of your thread shiatting examples has anything to do with lying about debt to gain admittance to the EU. The bankers cooked Greece's books so it could join because it's all win-win to them.

Ok... how about this example (new window)? Basically, when the feds run up against the debt limit and need more money, they default on the bond that is the federal workers' retirement fund, with a promise to un-default when they can cook the books somewhere else to pay it back. In a few years we are going to be in the same position as Greece, and for the same reasons.