Earl Campbell, stand up and tell everybody how well the NFL treats its retirees!

The NFL just needs to sack up and get out ahead of this, because it's not going away. We're only going to find more and more evidence that concussions are just about the worst long-term thing that can happen to a player out on the field.

how could they ever hope to subsidize the care related to injuries suffered on the field by their players?

it's not like it's a multi-billion dollar-- oh...

There are helmets that would greatly reduce the amount of concussions but I read that players don't like them because they look stupid.

Implement the spaceballs vader helmets and problem goes away.

xtragrind: There are helmets that would greatly reduce the amount of concussions but I read that players don't like them because they look stupid.

Implement the spaceballs vader helmets and problem goes away.

Better helmets aren't going to help.

Only changed the core of the game will stop concussions, but the NFL is more worried about the golden egg than the goose.

ready for race car drivers to start suing for car crashes

"Yeah, I understand you paid me to do this, but still yet, I put my life on the line for you, I put my health on the line," Dorsett says. "And yet when the time comes, you turn your back on me? That's not right. That's not the American way."

Yeah, making choices then suing when you don't like the consequences is the American way.

dkimball: ready for race car drivers to start suing for car crashes

The claim against the NFL is that they ignored and burried research that showed there was a growing concussion problem. Only in the past few years have they begun to put in place protections that are little more than window dressing.


In most industries, if your work makes you sick, you get your medical bills paid.

"Yeah, I understand you paid me to do this, but still yet, I put my life on the line for you, I put my health on the line," Dorsett says. "And yet when the time comes, you turn your back on me? That's not right. That's not the American way."

Yes it is, Tony. You haven't been paying attention. I've got mine, fark the rest of you! is what the people who claim to be "real Americans" subscribe to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIl45f6i1PU&feature=youtu.be

This would solve all concussion problems and as a bonus be very funny as well.

Yanks_RSJ: "Yeah, I understand you paid me to do this, but still yet, I put my life on the line for you, I put my health on the line," Dorsett says. "And yet when the time comes, you turn your back on me? That's not right. That's not the American way."

Yeah, making choices then suing when you don't like the consequences is the American way.

You don't think they have any case? That teams didn't recklessly throw guys back out onto the field still suffering concussion symptoms?

I get that no one really understood the full extent of the danger at the time, but to say the NFL is completely free of responsibility here is a bit crass, no?

jayhawk88: You don't think they have any case? That teams didn't recklessly throw guys back out onto the field still suffering concussion symptoms?

I get that no one really understood the full extent of the danger at the time, but to say the NFL is completely free of responsibility here is a bit crass, no?

I don't think the NFL is completely free of responsibility, but nobody put a gun to Dorsett's head and told him to get back in the game.

I guess the question is, to what degree is the NFL responsible for the medical care of its former players? I wouldn't argue that they shouldn't do anything, but the former players love to act like they didn't know what they signed up for. It's a brutal game in which your head is subject to repeated contact.

I can't think about this topic without changing my stance every two minutes.

On the one hand, I feel the former players have legitimate gripes. On the other hand, how could you not know that some of those injuries you were playing with wouldn't cause long-term effects? On the other hand, I have no doubt that the NFL teams and coaches knew as well. On the other hand, how could you not know that popping painkillers and steroids like candy would have long-term effects? On the other hand, I have no doubt that NFL teams made them widely available to you.

The one thing that pains me greatly is the though that these former players aren't suing the NFL. They're suing us. The American public. Because we're the ones who'll wind up footing the bill in the end. And I don't see it reaching a breaking point any time soon.

lajotu: The one thing that pains me greatly is the though that these former players aren't suing the NFL. They're suing us. The American public. Because we're the ones who'll wind up footing the bill in the end.

Or we could just stop buying their over-priced tickets and associated merchandise.

Pincy: Or we could just stop buying their over-priced tickets and associated merchandise.

That'd be the breaking point, yes.

Do you see the NFL hitting a breaking point?

Yes and this is just the tip of the ice berg, sure he wants to sue the NFL, because that is where the money is, but statistically his concussion and other injury problems started when he started playing.

Children's football injury rates are horrific and the amount of damage suffered greatly increases their medical costs later in life. As the game is played today children's football should be considered a form of child abuse.

The very first thing that needs to be changed is the contact rules, no child should ever be allowed to play full contact football, full contact football should not be allowed until the college level, if at all.

If football were any other kids activity it would have been banned as dangerous and their would be an active campaign against it, because of the injury rate.

Yanks_RSJ: I don't think the NFL is completely free of responsibility, but nobody put a gun to Dorsett's head and told him to get back in the game.

I guess the question is, to what degree is the NFL responsible for the medical care of its former players?

Would you have the same feelings if the situation was:

Ship builder complains of some breathing issues, the company's doctors tell him he's good to go work

20 years later the worker has asbestosis. Company says, well you stopped working 15 years ago, so tough shiat.

Yanks_RSJ: I guess the question is, to what degree is the NFL responsible for the medical care of its former players? I wouldn't argue that they shouldn't do anything, but the former players love to act like they didn't know what they signed up for. It's a brutal game in which your head is subject to repeated contact.

I agree, but I do think that the concussion problem is somewhat of a unique situation. For so many years it was treated with such a cavalier attitude, by coaches and medical professionals alike, almost a sign of weakness if you let even the most savage of hits to the head bother you in the least. "Shake it off, son", "What day is it, lol!", "Get him back in there and point him in the right direction", etc. And now the irony is revealed, and it turns out to quite possibly be the worst thing that can happen to a player from a long term health perspective.

Players knew what to expect from things like bad knees, back problems, bones breaks or fractures that never quite healed right, but I don't think anyone back then went in expecting that they'd end up with dementia, memory loss, or any of the other neuropsych disorders now associated with concussions. Certainly people knew about what could happen to "punch drunk" boxers, but clearly no one had a full understanding of the risks.

xtragrind: There are helmets that would greatly reduce the amount of concussions but I read that players don't like them because they look stupid.

Implement the spaceballs vader helmets and problem goes away.

The league did studies on them, found out which ones worked and which ones didn't and then concealed the information from the players, allowing them to unknowingly use helmets that they approved for use which they knew were not as safe as others.

I don't know if they had this information back when Dorsett was playing but the players who played in the last 5-10 years absolutely have a case against the league.

the idea isn't that they're suing them for causing their injuries, they're suing for the NFL to shoulder a portion of the cost of injuries that they sustained on the field that were not known to be so severe at the time

a good example i have offhand is 70s Running Back Floyd Little being so farked up and brain-damaged that he wound up pissing into his garbage can thinking it was his toilet in the late 90s or early 2000s

now, the NFL can argue that its policies on concussions were compliant with and based on science at the time, but to argue that employees who sustained injuries while in your employ (that have since been shown to exacerbate over time) don't deserve ANY assistance whatsoever is not something i think will hold up in court, let alone the court of public opinion.

EyeballKid: Earl Campbell, stand up and tell everybody how well the NFL treats its retirees!

Or Dave Duerson.

Or Andre Waters.

Or Mike Webster.

The NFL is just as responsible as the players to ensure a safer working environment, and the league ignored a lot of medical reporting for years. Changing the rules to mitigate concussions on the field is a start, now they need to help the players that made them the massive entity they are today.

save russian jews: a good example i have offhand is 70s Running Back Floyd Little being so farked up and brain-damaged that he wound up pissing into his garbage can thinking it was his toilet in the late 90s or early 2000s

I did that once when I was 6. My family was like "WTF"

Slaves2Darkness: Yes and this is just the tip of the ice berg, sure he wants to sue the NFL, because that is where the money is, but statistically his concussion and other injury problems started when he started playing.

Also, why doesn't he go ahead and sue Pitt because for all he knows, his neurological issues might have started there?

/Opening up this can of worms...

I'm generally on the player's side. That said, 99% of these guys would have signed in a minute or less when handed the piece of paper that said, 'when you get old you will have a lot of extra health problems - in recognition of that we will pay you 25-100 times what you'd be able to make in a non football career over the next ten years.' They'd sign - damn near every one of them would have chosen the same path.

Yanks_RSJ: I guess the question is, to what degree is the NFL responsible for the medical care of its former players? I wouldn't argue that they shouldn't do anything, but the former players love to act like they didn't know what they signed up for. It's a brutal game in which your head is subject to repeated contact.

What they are going to need to end up doing is self-insure. Large employers do it all the time. Setting up a pool for such a miniscule number of people compared to, say, Boeing, should be child's play. And they absolutely have the revenue and expertise to do it. They could even limit the coverage to football related stuff like orthopaedic crap and neurological disorders and just buy a supplemental policy for your garden variety stuff everyone faces like your cancer and whatnot. Why the hell the NFL doesn't set up their own health plan is beyond me. they have billions in revenues every year and this is the number one issue facing them. They should own it and cut out the middle man and get ahead of it.

Yanks_RSJ: jayhawk88: You don't think they have any case? That teams didn't recklessly throw guys back out onto the field still suffering concussion symptoms?

I get that no one really understood the full extent of the danger at the time, but to say the NFL is completely free of responsibility here is a bit crass, no?

I don't think the NFL is completely free of responsibility, but nobody put a gun to Dorsett's head and told him to get back in the game.

I guess the question is, to what degree is the NFL responsible for the medical care of its former players? I wouldn't argue that they shouldn't do anything, but the former players love to act like they didn't know what they signed up for. It's a brutal game in which your head is subject to repeated contact.

Yeah, I have a tough time with these arguments about the NFL being the bad guy here. It's not like the NFL was forcing these players back on the field.

lennavan: Yeah, I have a tough time with these arguments about the NFL being the bad guy here. It's not like the NFL was forcing these players back on the field.

No. But at the same time it's not unreasonable to expect an ownership group to take some responsibility as unpleasant bi-products of their incredibly successful endeavor become known. That the players would have done it anyway is beside the point. It's becoming increasingly clear that these guys face long-term health consequences outside the norm. Paying for the insurance to deal with those consequences should be part of the cost of doing business. We are talking about hundreds or very low thousands of people - many of whom will NOT have problems - and revenue in the billions per year for TV alone. Very solvable problem. What's going unsaid here is that lots of the whining is from morons who went broke from their own stupidity - they don't want continued health care... they just want a check.

MugzyBrown: Yanks_RSJ: I don't think the NFL is completely free of responsibility, but nobody put a gun to Dorsett's head and told him to get back in the game.

I guess the question is, to what degree is the NFL responsible for the medical care of its former players?

Would you have the same feelings if the situation was:

Ship builder complains of some breathing issues, the company's doctors tell him he's good to go work

20 years later the worker has asbestosis. Company says, well you stopped working 15 years ago, so tough shiat.


You have a more defined time frame of when the problem occurred. Most football players have been playing since they were kids. Therefore, concussions on their developing brains could have happened when they were six and went undiagnosed and are just now presenting problems. Most kids weren't building ships. Therefore, the players can not single out that playing in the NFL caused their health problems.

...and because he chose to play football, any injuries he accumulates during the course of his career are his burden to bear and his alone. The National Football League has no responsibility to any players who played for one of its teams after they retire from football. I mean, what do you think the NFL is, their employers?

/If a factory's retirees were treated in the same manner as the NFL's, you better believe the union would have something of a say.
//But they all make a lot of money for playing a game, so they deserve whatever happens to them.

Slaves2Darkness: Yes and this is just the tip of the ice berg, sure he wants to sue the NFL, because that is where the money is, but statistically his concussion and other injury problems started when he started playing.

Children's football injury rates are horrific and the amount of damage suffered greatly increases their medical costs later in life. As the game is played today children's football should be considered a form of child abuse.

The very first thing that needs to be changed is the contact rules, no child should ever be allowed to play full contact football, full contact football should not be allowed until the college level, if at all.

If football were any other kids activity it would have been banned as dangerous and their would be an active campaign against it, because of the injury rate.

It's the struggle we are facing as parents. Our fourth grader really wants to play football, but it seems insane to us to put him in the local full contact league at this age. We finally relented to let him play flag football (NFL-sponsored at that!) at the local facility. He can play there until middle school age, at which point the question comes up again. Fortunately he has his old man's genes (white, slow, and short) so this may resolve itself easily.

Broadcastdave: You have a more defined time frame of when the problem occurred. Most football players have been playing since they were kids. Therefore, concussions on their developing brains could have happened when they were six and went undiagnosed and are just now presenting problems. Most kids weren't building ships. Therefore, the players can not single out that playing in the NFL caused their health problems.

thus sayeth the worst actuary in the world

JohnBigBootay: But at the same time it's not unreasonable to expect an ownership group to take some responsibility as unpleasant bi-products of their incredibly successful endeavor become known.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect the current owners and players to provide health insurance for all of the retired NFL players. They all make a fortune off the backs of the older players.

What I don't think is reasonable is to sue the NFL for damage done decades ago, unless you can show the NFL knew these problems would arise.

JohnBigBootay: and revenue in the billions per year for TV alone. Very solvable problem.

I completely agree with you. I guess I'm teetering between moral should and legal should. I don't think the league, owners or current players have any legal obligation to the retired players but they all certainly have a moral one.

And now that we know these things, or at least highly suspect, I expect that a part of working for the NFL will be lifetime insurance coverage.

JohnBigBootay: I'm generally on the player's side. That said, 99% of these guys would have signed in a minute or less when handed the piece of paper that said, 'when you get old you will have a lot of extra health problems - in recognition of that we will pay you 25-100 times what you'd be able to make in a non football career over the next ten years.' They'd sign - damn near every one of them would have chosen the same path.

And, again, that absolves the NFL of any responsibility for their after-football care.

/If you don't wanna make the argument, don't imply it.
//"They knew what they signed up for" = "Therefore, their employers don't need to worry about them."

IlGreven: JohnBigBootay: I'm generally on the player's side. That said, 99% of these guys would have signed in a minute or less when handed the piece of paper that said, 'when you get old you will have a lot of extra health problems - in recognition of that we will pay you 25-100 times what you'd be able to make in a non football career over the next ten years.' They'd sign - damn near every one of them would have chosen the same path.

And, again, that absolves the NFL of any responsibility for their after-football care.

/If you don't wanna make the argument, don't imply it.
//"They knew what they signed up for" = "Therefore, their employers don't need to worry about them."

Pincy: lajotu: The one thing that pains me greatly is the though that these former players aren't suing the NFL. They're suing us. The American public. Because we're the ones who'll wind up footing the bill in the end.

Or we could just stop buying their over-priced tickets and associated merchandise.


Done, and done.



lennavan: Yanks_RSJ: jayhawk88: You don't think they have any case? That teams didn't recklessly throw guys back out onto the field still suffering concussion symptoms?

I get that no one really understood the full extent of the danger at the time, but to say the NFL is completely free of responsibility here is a bit crass, no?

I don't think the NFL is completely free of responsibility, but nobody put a gun to Dorsett's head and told him to get back in the game.

I guess the question is, to what degree is the NFL responsible for the medical care of its former players? I wouldn't argue that they shouldn't do anything, but the former players love to act like they didn't know what they signed up for. It's a brutal game in which your head is subject to repeated contact.

Yeah, I have a tough time with these arguments about the NFL being the bad guy here. It's not like the NFL was forcing these players back on the field.


Did you read the article? It most certainly is exactly like the NFL forcing those guys back out on the field. Dorsett's claim is precisely that they were being told to, and were expected to, get back on the field by their team reps and coaches. This is complete and utter bullshiat on the part of the NFL, and is yet another reason why I don't watch NFL football anymore. I am actually of half a mind to stream Heidi Sunday night while the Superbowl is on.

Perfect headline, subby. I salute you. Football is still voluntary.

lennavan: What I don't think is reasonable is to sue the NFL for damage done decades ago, unless you can show the NFL knew these problems would arise.

I agree. 'Damages' is just a money grab by people who aren't any more worried about the well being of past and future players than he is his next poker stake.

lennavan: I completely agree with you. I guess I'm teetering between moral should and legal should. I don't think the league, owners or current players have any legal obligation to the retired players but they all certainly have a moral one.

I'm on the same page. We all find it distasteful to reward people - many of whom made profoundly stupid financial decisions and squandered fortunes on nothing. Their frequent stupidity aside, they were an integral part of an extremely successful venture and as we move forward the people who run that venture are going to find it more cost-effective to take care of them than to not take care of them.

Balchinian: Did you read the article? It most certainly is exactly like the NFL forcing those guys back out on the field.

I agree, it's like that. But it isn't yet that. Here's the part where I made my decision: "Being scorned by teammates or coaches if unable to return to a game..."

Appealing to someone's pride isn't forcing them. "Get back out there or you're fired" is.

PsyLord: IlGreven: JohnBigBootay: I'm generally on the player's side. That said, 99% of these guys would have signed in a minute or less when handed the piece of paper that said, 'when you get old you will have a lot of extra health problems - in recognition of that we will pay you 25-100 times what you'd be able to make in a non football career over the next ten years.' They'd sign - damn near every one of them would have chosen the same path.

And, again, that absolves the NFL of any responsibility for their after-football care.

/If you don't wanna make the argument, don't imply it.
//"They knew what they signed up for" = "Therefore, their employers don't need to worry about them."

[enemiesofreason.co.uk image 320x240]

Nope. Not at all what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that IF the players have know, they'd have signed up anyway. because lots of them are stupid and all of them were young and that's the way young ridiculously healthy people proceed generally. Still doesn't mean the NFL should get out of paying for what should be part of the cost of doing business.

As long as I live, I will never understand why people who could play both, play football instead of baseball.

lennavan: "Get back out there or you're fired" is

Players who refused to go back out would be cut.. ie fired.

Perhaps not Tony Dorsett, but special teams joe knows if the trainer says he can play, he has to play or he's cut.

You have a more defined time frame of when the problem occurred. Most football players have been playing since they were kids. Therefore, concussions on their developing brains could have happened when they were six and went undiagnosed and are just now presenting problems. Most kids weren't building ships. Therefore, the players can not single out that playing in the NFL caused their health problems.

In 99% of industries in the country, the employee would be awarded workers comp based on the evidence.

JohnBigBootay: PsyLord: IlGreven: JohnBigBootay: I'm generally on the player's side. That said, 99% of these guys would have signed in a minute or less when handed the piece of paper that said, 'when you get old you will have a lot of extra health problems - in recognition of that we will pay you 25-100 times what you'd be able to make in a non football career over the next ten years.' They'd sign - damn near every one of them would have chosen the same path.

And, again, that absolves the NFL of any responsibility for their after-football care.

/If you don't wanna make the argument, don't imply it.
//"They knew what they signed up for" = "Therefore, their employers don't need to worry about them."

[enemiesofreason.co.uk image 320x240]

Nope. Not at all what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that IF the players have know, they'd have signed up anyway. because lots of them are stupid and all of them were young and that's the way young ridiculously healthy people proceed generally. Still doesn't mean the NFL should get out of paying for what should be part of the cost of doing business.

I was only being half serious about that post. I agree that the amount of money thrown at players makes it very tempting for someone to forgo a "normal" job to become a professional athlete. But with any other physical jobs, there are risks. Granted that in the past, medical science didn't really explore the long term consequences of repeated concussions, however, you have to figure that banging your brain around repeatedly isn't something that's good for you. So the question is, if this goes for the NFL, what about boxing, hockey, and other pro sports? What about other labor intensive jobs or jobs that require a person to be in contact with/handle toxic chemicals?

I've had several concussions. What long-term problems have I faced?

Seizures. Daily seizures that do not respond to medication.

Concussions aren't a joke. These guys deserve to be cared for.

PsyLord: I was only being half serious about that post. I agree that the amount of money thrown at players makes it very tempting for someone to forgo a "normal" job to become a professional athlete. But with any other physical jobs, there are risks. Granted that in the past, medical science didn't really explore the long term consequences of repeated concussions, however, you have to figure that banging your brain around repeatedly isn't something that's good for you. So the question is, if this goes for the NFL, what about boxing, hockey, and other pro sports? What about other labor intensive jobs or jobs that require a person to be in contact with/handle toxic chemicals?

Oh, I'm with you. Lots of risky jobs. Some come through with special benefits to counter the risks - like the VA or mesothlioma policies for miners, etc. Some don't. Our system is not very efficient. But the NFL is a singularly successful venture staffed by a very small number of people. The owners will not be able to outrun this for much longer. Boxing doesn't really count - those are independent contractors. They don't work for anyone save themselves.

CheatCommando: "Yeah, I understand you paid me to do this, but still yet, I put my life on the line for you, I put my health on the line," Dorsett says. "And yet when the time comes, you turn your back on me? That's not right. That's not the American way."

Yes it is, Tony. You haven't been paying attention. I've got mine, fark the rest of you! is what the people who claim to be "real Americans" subscribe to.

As I recall he got his too.

From what I remember hearing former players say they get X amount of years health coverage after they retire then they are on their own. I think longer post career health coverage was one of the things the players wanted during the lockout.

Make'em play without the damn helmets, see if they keep spearing without a brain-bucket.

Except you Brian Cushing, you're certifiably insane. Which I like.