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(Fox News)   Couple sue In Vitro Fertilization Doctor for giving them what they wanted, but not how they wanted it   (foxnews.com) divider line 39
    More: Fail, IVF, duty of care, obstetricians, The Sydney Morning Herald  
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20283 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Feb 2012 at 8:08 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-02-02 04:49:00 AM
9 votes:
You ever think that nature gives some people clues about whether they shouldn't procreate?
2012-02-02 10:18:56 AM
3 votes:

Dahnkster: FTA: "We love Keeden now that he's here, but...."

And that may be all I need to know.


Came here for basically this.

"We love Keeden now that he's here, but....we'd love him more if we had $10 million."
2012-02-02 06:12:59 AM
3 votes:
It sounds like alloimmune thrombocytopenia. This is a treatable condition, with a proper medical history of the parents. Remember how we used to have "blue babies" because Mom was A- and Dad A+? Kind of like that. Nowadays A- mothers just get a shot of Rhogam, and no more blue babies. With alloimmune thrombocytopenia, if mom is treated with intravenous gamma globulin during her pregnancy, no intracerebral bleeds in baby's brain. Healthy baby. I would say that the journalist leapt to a damned unfortunate conclusion without understanding the medicine. It's not a "wrongful birth." It's a failure to diagnose and treat alloimmune thrombocytopenia.
2012-02-02 05:46:26 AM
3 votes:
So let me see if I have this straight: These people absolutely had to have a little bundle of joy of their very own, a doctor did his best to help them reach that goal, the child was born with a birth defect due to his father's shiatty genes, and now the parents are all butt hurt over it?

Maybe they should sue whatever god they believe in?
2012-02-02 10:42:13 AM
2 votes:

braedan:
Am I a monster for thinking this child should have been euthanized immediately after birth?

Sentencing a human being to a lifetime in this condition seems cruel to me.


Of course you're not. I've had to pull the plug on a family member before, and if the day comes that I'm in a persistent vegetative state I hope one of my kids plucks up the nerve to do the same for me. Or smother me with a pillow.

Before either of my kids were born, we paid for amniocentesis. The religious folks in North Georgia (everybody but us) scoffed, and asked if something had come back wrong, would you get an abortion? We said hell yes, which horrified them.

They said a mentally handicapped child was special and loving, etc, a gift from Heaven. We said we respected their opinion, but to us a mentally handicapped child was a shuffling, drooling abomination sent by the Lord of Hell to shadow our every step even unto Death, and that God had given us the means to avoid this happening to us or the child in question. If we did not avail ourselves of God's Help, we would have gotten what we deserved.

No offense meant to the upthread folks in this situation who were promoting it, of course, just a differing opinion to which I'm entitled.
2012-02-02 09:12:19 AM
2 votes:

dopeydwarf: So let me see if I have this straight: These people absolutely had to have a little bundle of joy of their very own, a doctor did his best to help them reach that goal, the child was born with a birth defect due to his father's shiatty genes, and now the parents are all butt hurt over it?

Maybe they should sue whatever god they believe in?


I"m thinking the same thing...the condition wasn't a side effect of the IVF, it was inherited from the father. Unless the doc was somehow legally obligated to screen their entire genetic makeup, I see no reason he'd be responsible. This could just as easily happened with natural birth.
2012-02-02 08:15:35 AM
2 votes:
Days after Keeden was born in August 2000 he suffered a massive stroke causing brain damage and leaving him unable to walk, talk or go to the toilet unaided.


I know these are new parents and all, but surely they are aware that the average newborn can do none of those things?
2012-02-02 08:13:41 AM
2 votes:
I love how this is not their first Wrongful Birth law suit.


/And by a show of hands, who thought that this was going to be about the Doc diddling the Wifey? I know I sure did...
2012-02-02 05:10:16 AM
2 votes:

thelordofcheese: You ever think that nature gives some people clues about whether they shouldn't procreate?


Yeah I was coming here to sy something similar.
2012-02-02 07:32:41 PM
1 votes:

Feepit: FTFA: Debbie and Lawrence Waller [said] they love their son Keeden, but believe he should never have been born.

One day your kid may see these articles, asshats.

Stay classy!


NO, he won't. That's the point. He will NEVER be able to read this nor will he be able to live a full life.
2012-02-02 06:04:07 PM
1 votes:
If you sued your parents for "wrongful birth", does that mean you can than legally commit suicide?

/dumb question on purpose
2012-02-02 04:54:50 PM
1 votes:

thelordofcheese: You ever think that nature gives some people clues about whether they shouldn't procreate?


THIS
2012-02-02 03:19:07 PM
1 votes:

Jeff_in_ATL: braedan:
Am I a monster for thinking this child should have been euthanized immediately after birth?

Sentencing a human being to a lifetime in this condition seems cruel to me.

Of course you're not. I've had to pull the plug on a family member before, and if the day comes that I'm in a persistent vegetative state I hope one of my kids plucks up the nerve to do the same for me. Or smother me with a pillow.

Before either of my kids were born, we paid for amniocentesis. The religious folks in North Georgia (everybody but us) scoffed, and asked if something had come back wrong, would you get an abortion? We said hell yes, which horrified them.

They said a mentally handicapped child was special and loving, etc, a gift from Heaven. We said we respected their opinion, but to us a mentally handicapped child was a shuffling, drooling abomination sent by the Lord of Hell to shadow our every step even unto Death, and that God had given us the means to avoid this happening to us or the child in question. If we did not avail ourselves of God's Help, we would have gotten what we deserved.

No offense meant to the upthread folks in this situation who were promoting it, of course, just a differing opinion to which I'm entitled.


I would have to agree with you both, for the most part...However, I should mention that I have Turner's Syndrome. I found out a few years ago that a high percentage of feti who test positive for TS are aborted. It kind of shocked me because, for me, TS basically just means I am short and can't have babbys. I's certainly not mentally deficient (at least not more so than any graduate of a public college in the U.S.) and I am actually fairly strong for my size and gender, physically. As to the no babbys, I could have invitro but, even if I had a husband and all that, I'd adopt. I kind of feel that invitro is immoral.

Anyway, none of that means I think either abortion or invitro should be illegal. They should be up to the mother and/or father and their doctor. I just thought I'd point out that some genetic abnormalities might not be so bad. I know that just because I think something is immoral doesn't mean that it should be illegal.
2012-02-02 03:03:38 PM
1 votes:
Let's put everything else aside and think about the impact that this has on the child. (Think of the children!, etc., etc.) By these parents taking this issue to court, they are basically saying to the child "Sorry, Keeden, we didn't really want you, we wanted a child like you who can run and play and piss in the loo without mummy and daddy to help you."

Legally, I see no basis for the suit and believe it should have been dismissed and laughed out of court. The blood-clotting condition was (and is) genetic; therefore, any reasonable parent would assume that their child--whether conceived naturally with the horizontal cha-cha or through IVF with a turkey baster--would stand a significant chance of inheriting the gene.

The parents claim they didn't have the "right information," but all they would have needed was a high school biology textbook to figure out that, wait for it, a genetic condition mgiht be passed down.

What's more shocking to me, however, is that the parents were specifically referred to a genetics specialist but did not follow up with one. While we're at it, the parents claim they called the hospital switchboard and no one answered. I personally conducted an experiment today by calling three hospital switchboards at 12:30 local time and...all three hospitals answered. So I don't believe they didn't follow up with the geneticist.

Finally, I would like to point out that the IVF specialist has essentially no duty to tell the parents that they carry genes which might possibly affect their test-tube baby. After all, the purpose of the IVF specialist is to make sure that the baby batter is made into a baby blastocyst and then--maybe, assuming the mother isn't screwed up in her lady parts--an actual baby.
2012-02-02 02:38:02 PM
1 votes:
From the longer, linked article at the bottom of this article:
They claim that such responsibility as does exist was met by the referral of the Wallers to the genetic counsellor.

''There is no question that Debbie and Lawrence Waller have experienced a tragic event and that the Keeden Waller situation is extremely sad,'' counsel for Dr James, Jeremy Kirk, SC, said.

''But they are intelligent adults who were advised to speak to a genetic counsellor. They chose not to take up that advice.''


So let me get this straight. The couple was referred by the IVF doctors to a genetic counsellor, who would have told them about any possible genetic issues. The couple chose not to speak with the genetic counsellor. Now they blame the IVF doctors. Do I have that right? Yeebus.
2012-02-02 01:27:58 PM
1 votes:

Loaf's Tray: Mort_Q: thelordofcheese: You ever think that nature gives some people clues about whether they shouldn't procreate?

Your parents ignored it.

/ fark you
// i have a test tube baby; worth every penny

Does it have a belly button?


It's nose is a little smushed.

Also, it's an abomination to our Lord.
2012-02-02 01:04:50 PM
1 votes:
How did we make it so far into the thread without a Gattaca reference?
2012-02-02 12:54:55 PM
1 votes:
So the doctor did nothing wrong, it was daddy's defective spermmies.
2012-02-02 12:20:57 PM
1 votes:

Gwendolyn: thelordofcheese: You ever think that nature gives some people clues about whether they shouldn't procreate?

Yeah I was coming here to sy something similar.


Infertility is nature's way of preventing certain genes from passing on. Start messing around with nature, deal with the consequences. These parents are just upset they didn't get their perfect little replicant.
2012-02-02 11:25:40 AM
1 votes:

gyorg: braedan: FROM TFA: Days after Keeden was born in August 2000 he suffered a massive stroke causing brain damage and leaving him unable to walk, talk or go to the toilet unaided.

Am I a monster for thinking this child should have been euthanized immediately after birth?

Yes.

You play the cards you are dealt.

(son has rare genetic disorder. Wife and I are both recessive carriers, but our son is the first in both families and genetic tests for it only started a few decades ago so we didn't know. He's well worth the extra work/cost.)


I don't know how you play poker, but if I'm dealt a high card of 6, I fold and wait for the next hand.

My wife is on the fence, leaning toward no regarding having kids. I want children, but issues like this are the reason I've not discussed it further with her. She is a diagnosed with bi-polar disorder & other issues. That long with the potential for birth defects scare the hell out of me.
I do not want the responsibility of raising a child with a severe handicap.
2012-02-02 11:14:21 AM
1 votes:
$10 million? Really? And we don't need some reform in this area?
2012-02-02 10:33:20 AM
1 votes:
Their intentions may be reasonable, but their way of expressing it is sad and sick.

I'm not all fuzzy-wuzzy about babies and parenthood and such, but damn, that is some cold-hearted crap to read.
"We love him, but wish he was dead."
Bloody hell, folks. My cynical side wonders why the kid didn't suffer an "accident" if they so much regret his birth.
They could have adopted a kid whose dad didn't give him damaged genes, the selfish wankers.
2012-02-02 09:32:15 AM
1 votes:

gyorg: braedan: Am I a monster for thinking this child should have been euthanized immediately after birth?
This article is light on details, but with this level of brain damage I'm assuming cognitive function has been significantly impaired as well.
Sentencing a human being to a lifetime in this condition seems cruel to me.

Yes.

You play the cards you are dealt.

(son has rare genetic disorder. Wife and I are both recessive carriers, but our son is the first in both families and genetic tests for it only started a few decades ago so we didn't know. He's well worth the extra work/cost.)


How does your son feel about the game? Maybe he farking hates playing cards, and would've preferred Scrabble.
2012-02-02 09:19:39 AM
1 votes:

braedan: FROM TFA: Days after Keeden was born in August 2000 he suffered a massive stroke causing brain damage and leaving him unable to walk, talk or go to the toilet unaided.

Am I a monster for thinking this child should have been euthanized immediately after birth?
This article is light on details, but with this level of brain damage I'm assuming cognitive function has been significantly impaired as well.
Sentencing a human being to a lifetime in this condition seems cruel to me.


Yes.

You play the cards you are dealt.

(son has rare genetic disorder. Wife and I are both recessive carriers, but our son is the first in both families and genetic tests for it only started a few decades ago so we didn't know. He's well worth the extra work/cost.)
2012-02-02 08:59:41 AM
1 votes:
FROM TFA: Days after Keeden was born in August 2000 he suffered a massive stroke causing brain damage and leaving him unable to walk, talk or go to the toilet unaided.

Am I a monster for thinking this child should have been euthanized immediately after birth?
This article is light on details, but with this level of brain damage I'm assuming cognitive function has been significantly impaired as well.
Sentencing a human being to a lifetime in this condition seems cruel to me.
2012-02-02 08:57:23 AM
1 votes:

Feepit: FTFA: Debbie and Lawrence Waller [said] they love their son Keeden, but believe he should never have been born.

One day your kid may see these articles, asshats.

Stay classy!


Pretty sure the kid is too incapacitated to read.

At any rate it's pretty unbelievable that the father would not have known/sought out those risks beforehand.

He himself was already living with it with no major consequence before the kid was born. My cousin was born when I was in my teens. It was only after that that we learned that my aunt had been a fragile X carrier and that my cousin was Autistic because of it. That of course meant my father could also have it(although he would have a minor version as he functions pretty well) which would mean I, as a female would have it(comes down on the X chromosome, gets worse with all suceeding genertions) Finally, a few months ago, because there's ever the slim chance I could someday bear a child, I got my test done.

Turned out I didn't have it....but up until then I'd know if I did that I could have an autistic child.
2012-02-02 08:54:08 AM
1 votes:
So...6 years ago this couple tried suing the OBGYNs and the IVF clinic and it was thrown out of court (for reasons the article doesn't mention). Now they're back with another attempt..this time targeting the IVF doctor specifically. If this one is also tossed out, who will they sue next time? The IVF clinic's nursing staff? The genetic counselor they were referred to?
2012-02-02 08:51:13 AM
1 votes:
If you're willing to sue for "wrongful birth," then you, by definition, wish your child had not been born. I find that incompatible with any claims to love said child. Medical malpractice, maybe- if the doctor withheld information that might have affected their course of treatment for the kid. But "wrongful birth"? WTH? They don't deserve to be parents.
2012-02-02 08:43:59 AM
1 votes:
Justice John Hislop heard that Dr James did not seek to find out the answer himself, but handed the couple the name and phone number of a genetic counsellor at Wollongong Hospital on a post-it note. It is alleged the note was given to the Wallers in the context of a discussion about fertility not genetics...

If someone refers you to a genetic counsellor, it's safe to figure that the discussion will be about your genetic risk factors (it's right in the name).

If the phone is the general hospital operator...good for you that you have the person's NAME!

/wife is a genetic counsellor.
//drives her nuts that I'm adopted.
2012-02-02 08:40:28 AM
1 votes:

emersonbiggins: Days after Keeden was born in August 2000 he suffered a massive stroke causing brain damage and leaving him unable to walk, talk or go to the toilet unaided.

I know these are new parents and all, but surely they are aware that the average newborn can do none of those things?


I thought that very thing when I read that. However, I chose not to burn in hell for actually saying it :-)
2012-02-02 08:35:38 AM
1 votes:
I know this is from my very limited experience with other people having birth, but it seems like there always seems to be something not quite right with the babies born when IVF or other fertility treatments are used. That makes me sad because there are healthy babies out there who need adopting. :(

mekkab: I love how this is not their first Wrongful Birth law suit.


I didn't click through initially, so now I have more questions like...the kid's eleven? The first little blurb conveniently left out that the baby's not really a baby anymore.

And the first "wrongful birth" case didn't work, so they're trying again, it seems...

And saying something like, "We love him, but he shouldn't have been born" seems cold no matter which way you slice it.
2012-02-02 08:33:12 AM
1 votes:

emersonbiggins: Days after Keeden was born in August 2000 he suffered a massive stroke causing brain damage and leaving him unable to walk, talk or go to the toilet unaided.

I know these are new parents and all, but surely they are aware that the average newborn can do none of those things?


Nice.
2012-02-02 08:32:52 AM
1 votes:
FTFA: Debbie and Lawrence Waller [said] they love their son Keeden, but believe he should never have been born.

One day your kid may see these articles, asshats.

Stay classy!
2012-02-02 08:28:49 AM
1 votes:
FTA: "We love Keeden now that he's here, but...."

And that may be all I need to know.
2012-02-02 08:26:01 AM
1 votes:
Sounds like "Dad" should sue himself. He's the one who's responsible.
2012-02-02 08:19:07 AM
1 votes:

mekkab: /And by a show of hands, who thought that this was going to be about the Doc diddling the Wifey? I know I sure did...


Yep. That was my prediction. Or that the doctor used his own sperm to fertilized instead of the husband's.
2012-02-02 08:11:37 AM
1 votes:
It's not nice to fark with Mother Nature.
2012-02-02 06:52:07 AM
1 votes:
Oh, and it's FOX News. We report without a clue, you decide.
2012-02-02 05:15:00 AM
1 votes:

Gwendolyn: thelordofcheese: You ever think that nature gives some people clues about whether they shouldn't procreate?

Yeah I was coming here to sy something similar.


Perhaps they see it as someone f*cking up a special order. They paid a premium and it isn't what they wanted, and now they can't return it.
 
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