Paultards

Oh please do this. I'm running low on schadenfreude.

herpa derpa doo!

One Silver Dime!

Yes, then the legislature will decide that since the physical logistical difficulties connected to moving all that metal around are too onerous and they'll pass laws allowing the use of pieces of paper to represent the metal coins. They'll call them silver certificates or something like that. They'll be notes promising to pay the bearer a given amount of silver or gold. The some bank will become the state's preferred lender and the state and that bank will cut a deal where they exchange the metal certificates for bank notes based on the state's credit on deposit. The people will then use these reserve bank notes instead of the unwieldy metal coins.

Hey wait...

Okay, seriously though, who doesn't want this to pass just to see the lulz that would surely follow?

Why do I get the feeling that these guys have, at best, a BA in Communications from a community college?

I demand all of our coins be made of magnesium.

/just as realistic

HotIgneous Intruder: Yes, then the legislature will decide that since the physical logistical difficulties connected to moving all that metal around are too onerous and they'll pass laws allowing the use of pieces of paper to represent the metal coins. They'll call them silver certificates or something like that. They'll be notes promising to pay the bearer a given amount of silver or gold. The some bank will become the state's preferred lender and the state and that bank will cut a deal where they exchange the metal certificates for bank notes based on the state's credit on deposit. The people will then use these reserve bank notes instead of the unwieldy metal coins.

Hey wait...

This will never work in practice. It's a nice theory but there are gigantic holes in your reasoning. Goods and services will continue to be exchanged through the barter system, as the invisible hand of the market intended since creation.

If you ever wondered how a mostly rural state like Washington could be so consistently blue, now you know. We have the dumbest Republicans in the country. So dumb that even our right winters take pause and say "Fark is that guy dumb."

I wonder if there's a reason why TP doesn't link to the text of the bill...

HotWingConspiracy: I demand all of our coins be made of magnesium.

/just as realistic

Now that'd be interesting when you send your wallet through the washer.

skullkrusher: I wonder if there's a reason why TP doesn't link to the text of the bill...

It involves reading?

Cinaed: Why do I get the feeling that these guys have, at best, a BA in Communications from a community college?

First with the lulz:

Jason Overstreet Earned an associate's degree from Whatcom Community College and a degree in land surveying from Bellingham Technical College. Link (new window)

Jim McCune is a graduate of Highline High School in Burien Link (new window)

Then with the sad:
Matt Shea
Gonzaga University - B.A. in History and Political science
Graduate, Gonzaga University School of Law
Link (new window)

I get why the High School graduate and the land surveying degree guy think this shiat. But really? Someone with a law degree? Ouch.

Leo Bloom's Freakout: skullkrusher: I wonder if there's a reason why TP doesn't link to the text of the bill...

It involves reading?

that's my guess. The bill does talk about the dollar bill being unconstitutional but it doesn't attempt to ban its use in Washington or anywhere else

lennavan: Cinaed: Why do I get the feeling that these guys have, at best, a BA in Communications from a community college?

First with the lulz:

Jason Overstreet Earned an associate's degree from Whatcom Community College and a degree in land surveying from Bellingham Technical College. Link (new window)

Jim McCune is a graduate of Highline High School in Burien Link (new window)

Then with the sad:
Matt Shea
Gonzaga University - B.A. in History and Political science
Graduate, Gonzaga University School of Law
Link (new window)

I get why the High School graduate and the land surveying degree guy think this shiat. But really? Someone with a law degree? Ouch.

Gonzaga, Cinderella of basketball. Not so much education

skullkrusher: I wonder if there's a reason why TP doesn't link to the text of the bill...

Crappy journalism. A google search for text from the quote pops it up though.

PDF Warning (new window)

Aside from the logistical nightmare of forcing the use of specie for state government transactions, there is still that pesky part of the constitution that directly says only gold and silver shall be used as legal tender.

Should probably amend that. Otherwise it's a pretty bad precedent for the "goddamn piece of paper" theory of constitutional scholarship.

/and get rid of the part about the post office while you're at it. such a waste in the modern era.

I see the herp is derping in the pacific northwest.

HotWingConspiracy: I demand all of our coins be made of magnesium.

/just as realistic

Well... There goes another wishing well...

Larofeticus: Aside from the logistical nightmare of forcing the use of specie for state government transactions, there is still that pesky part of the constitution that directly says only gold and silver shall be used as legal tender.

that's not what it says. It says that states may only create legal tender if it is made of gold or silver. i.e. they can't print money. What this bill does is expressly constitutional in that way. Their claim that gold and silver are the only valid legal tenders is not

Larofeticus: Aside from the logistical nightmare of forcing the use of specie for state government transactions, there is still that pesky part of the constitution that directly says only gold and silver shall be used as legal tender.

According to the bill from the article: "Only gold and silver may be recognized as government legal tender under Article I, section 10 of the United States Constitution"

Now if you read that section is actually says: No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts;

So by their reasoning, not only are gold and silver the only things you can use as money, but coining money itself is unconstitutional. They're not saying we should be trading gold and silver coins - they saying every time you go to the grocery store you're supposed to plop down an chunk of ore and the cashier should pull out a set of scales.

I'm pretty sure you are required by law to accept US currency everywhere within the US.

Larofeticus: Aside from the logistical nightmare of forcing the use of specie for state government transactions, there is still that pesky part of the constitution that directly says only gold and silver shall be used as legal tender.

To clarify, because I was confused: from Article I:10: No State shall... make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts...

Basically, states can make their own legal tender, but it can only be gold & silver coins. Otherwise, they have to use Federal legal tender.

watson.t.hamster: I'm pretty sure you are required by law to accept US currency everywhere within the US.

the bill calls for a choice between specie and US dollars, not a ban on US dollars and no one would be compelled to accept gold and silver as tender

There might be some practical limitations.

I would guess that the added fuel consumption of trying to carry around all this heavy metal alone would be ruinous.

The total amount of gold that has been mined so far is 165,000 tonnes and that includes everything from the content in Fort Knox, Mr. T's bling, the gold connectors in your monster cables to dental gold. The total value of that is in the trillions, but it would probably still not be enough to replace all the 'money' currently in circulation.

I have a question.

If your economy is based on a finite metallic substance, wouldn't that limit the potential size of the economy?

skepticultist: If you ever wondered how a mostly rural state like Washington could be so consistently blue, now you know. We have the dumbest Republicans in the country. So dumb that even our right winters take pause and say "Fark is that guy dumb."

If only we had created the 51st State, Lincoln (new window). . . Florida would have a true rival.

lennavan: Cinaed: Why do I get the feeling that these guys have, at best, a BA in Communications from a community college?

First with the lulz:

Jason Overstreet Earned an associate's degree from Whatcom Community College and a degree in land surveying from Bellingham Technical College. Link (new window)

Jim McCune is a graduate of Highline High School in Burien Link (new window)

Then with the sad:
Matt Shea
Gonzaga University - B.A. in History and Political science
Graduate, Gonzaga University School of Law
Link (new window)

I get why the High School graduate and the land surveying degree guy think this shiat. But really? Someone with a law degree? Ouch.


Surprise, surprise, that my old rep, Matt Shea is trying to set aside part of blue Washington's electoral votes for the GOP:

HB 1950: The Steal the White House Act

This is part of a national conspiracy to game the Electoral College to the Republicans' advantage. Sponsored by Representative Matt Shea (R-Spokane Valley), this bill is one of many measures being selectively introduced in legislatures nationwide that would assign presidential electors proportionately by congressional district in blue states, while leaving red states winner-take-all. The result? A virtual GOP lock on the White House. Assholes.

From the Stranger (new window)

r1chard3: I have a question.

If your economy is based on a finite metallic substance, wouldn't that limit the potential size of the economy?

There's about $1.03T in Federal Reserve notes in circulation. In comparison the US economy had an estimated GDP of $15.04 trillion in 2011.
Assuming away some things for the sake of simplicity, each dollar had to have changed hands about 15 times over the course of the year.

DamnYankees: r1chard3: I have a question.

If your economy is based on a finite metallic substance, wouldn't that limit the potential size of the economy?

In complete and total theory, no, since as the economy grows, everything just deflates. For example:

Year 1: There is 100 gold coins and 100 pounds of beef (or whatever). So every pound of beef costs a gold coin.

Year 2: There are (still) 100 gold coints and we've upped beef production to 200 pounds. So now every pound of beef costs half a gold coin.

Now replace beef with "consumable goods" or "units of labor available".

So, ask yourself - what's the likelihood people who sell stuff are going to consistently mark down the price of their goods over time? What's the odds workers will be happy to get consistent and permanent reductions in their nominal wages over time?

If you're answer is anything but "no chance in hell you goddamm lunatic", then you're a goldbug.

A concise and simple explanation of the psychological argument against a static money supply. Didn't know you had it in ya, DY ;)

skullkrusher: watson.t.hamster: I'm pretty sure you are required by law to accept US currency everywhere within the US.

the bill calls for a choice between specie and US dollars, not a ban on US dollars and no one would be compelled to accept gold and silver as tender

Actually it seems to say that you can be forced to pay your state taxes in gold and silver.

(2) This act may not be used to impair contractual obligations and,
except in the case of governmentally assessed taxes, fees, duties, imposts, dues, penalties or sanctions, neither the government nor any
of its branches, agencies, subdivisions, or instrumentalities may
compel payment in any particular form of legal tender inconsistent with
p. 3 HB 2731 the express written or verbal agreement of transacting parties, thereby frustrating the parties' manifest intent and impairing theircontractual obligations.

r1chard3: If your economy is based on a finite metallic substance, wouldn't that limit the potential size of the economy?

No. The result would be gentle deflation determined by the rate which productivity increases over time verses the less significant amount of new gold mined out of the ground.

It's kind of like how all our primitive monkey brains are programmed to accept as normal that prices rise over time, except the opposite. Another nice advantage is it doesn't force you to send your savings to the wall street casino in order to have a chance at not losing purchasing power over time. Money would be a more reliable store of value instead of the current system where it is mainly reliable as a medium of indirect exchange.

And all those logistical problems go away when you understand that it would be extremely easy to modify the existing digital payment infrastructure to record transactions and accounts which hold ounces of metal instead of dollars. The concept of a clearinghouse has existed for hundreds of years; even those primitive 19th century dwellers could figure it out.

r1chard3: I have a question.

If your economy is based on a finite metallic substance, wouldn't that limit the potential size of the economy?

According to the interwebs & napkin math: Link (new window)

"annual worldwide production of gold is something like 50 million troy ounces per year . . .To get at some kind of estimate, let's figure that the world has been producing gold at 50 million ounces a year for 200 years. That number is probably a little high, but when you figure that the Aztecs and the Egyptians produced a fair amount of gold for a long time, it's probably not too far off. Fifty million ounces * 200 years = 10 billion ounces."

The current price of gold is ~$1,750 an ounce. Which means the annual output of the world's gold production is worth roughly eighty-seven billion five hundred million US dollars.

Considering the US's Federal debt alone rose this year by a couple trillion dollars - the idea that anyone could return to the gold standard is pretty far fetched - let alone including the rest of the US economy; consumer debt, manufacturing, banking, etc.

Philip Francis Queeg: skullkrusher: watson.t.hamster: I'm pretty sure you are required by law to accept US currency everywhere within the US.

the bill calls for a choice between specie and US dollars, not a ban on US dollars and no one would be compelled to accept gold and silver as tender

Actually it seems to say that you can be forced to pay your state taxes in gold and silver.

(2) This act may not be used to impair contractual obligations and,
except in the case of governmentally assessed taxes, fees, duties, imposts, dues, penalties or sanctions, neither the government nor any
of its branches, agencies, subdivisions, or instrumentalities may
compel payment in any particular form of legal tender inconsistent with
p. 3 HB 2731 the express written or verbal agreement of transacting parties, thereby frustrating the parties' manifest intent and impairing theircontractual obligations.

"The legislature intends to provide a
12 choice of United States constitutional currency of gold and silver and
13 does not intend to compel a person to tender or accept gold or silver."

that is apparently a reference to the government still being allowed to compel you to pay your taxes in dollars

DamnYankees: skullkrusher: A concise and simple explanation of the psychological argument against a static money supply. Didn't know you had it in ya, DY ;)

Were you under the impression I was a goldbug or something?

HA! No, just saying that was a good explanation. Kudos, sir.

DamnYankees: Larofeticus: Another nice advantage is it doesn't force you to send your savings to the wall street casino in order to have a chance at not losing purchasing power over time. Money would be a more reliable store of value instead of the current system where it is mainly reliable as a medium of indirect exchange.

I don't understand why this is good.

you sound like a net debtor

DamnYankees: Larofeticus: Another nice advantage is it doesn't force you to send your savings to the wall street casino in order to have a chance at not losing purchasing power over time. Money would be a more reliable store of value instead of the current system where it is mainly reliable as a medium of indirect exchange.

I don't understand why this is good.

It's not, but lots of folks think it is, e.g. the legislators from TFA.

That which makes a good medium of exchange makes a crappy store of value, and vice versa. Plus, we already have things that make a good store of value - assets. Like gold.

They do realize the price of gold and silver is no longer fixed, right? This would cause some pretty heinous currency variations one month to the next.

skullkrusher: Philip Francis Queeg: skullkrusher: watson.t.hamster: I'm pretty sure you are required by law to accept US currency everywhere within the US.

the bill calls for a choice between specie and US dollars, not a ban on US dollars and no one would be compelled to accept gold and silver as tender

Actually it seems to say that you can be forced to pay your state taxes in gold and silver.

(2) This act may not be used to impair contractual obligations and,
except in the case of governmentally assessed taxes, fees, duties, imposts, dues, penalties or sanctions, neither the government nor any
of its branches, agencies, subdivisions, or instrumentalities may
compel payment in any particular form of legal tender inconsistent with
p. 3 HB 2731 the express written or verbal agreement of transacting parties, thereby frustrating the parties' manifest intent and impairing theircontractual obligations.

"The legislature intends to provide a
12 choice of United States constitutional currency of gold and silver and
13 does not intend to compel a person to tender or accept gold or silver."

that is apparently a reference to the government still being allowed to compel you to pay your taxes in dollars

No, I think it says people cannot be compelled to accept gold and silver in payment, but they provide the government an exception that would allow the government to demand gold and silver in payment.

What is your interpretation of the exception I quoted?