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(C|Net)   Tim Cook: we care about our slav...err, workers   (news.cnet.com) divider line 87
    More: Unlikely, Piper Jaffray, Foxconn, CNET  
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2689 clicks; posted to Business » on 01 Feb 2012 at 10:30 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-02-01 03:50:19 PM  

zetar: I know this is Fark, so I'm standing by for the inevitable...


correction of your faulty logic? Ok. Tell me - do you have pictures Steve Jobs personally holding a gun against the temples of the hundreds of thousands of worker's temples to get them to build Apple products?

No?

Then it must be they chose that work under those conditions. How am I responsible for someone else's choices again? I keep forgetting.
 
2012-02-01 03:59:05 PM  

lostsatellite: If you're posting in this thread, you are doing so on a device made by 'slave' labor (almost every electronics manufacturer uses Foxconn; don't kid yourself, iHaters). All the platitudes and righteous indignation in the world won't erase the fact that your quality of life wouldn't be possible without 'slave' labor. At least be up front about it and admit you lose no sleep over it.

I sincerely do not give half a shiat about Chinese laborers, and I love my iPhone. At least I'm honest.


If you are wearing clothes you are doing so thanks to "slave labor". If you ate an peach imported into this country you are doing so thanks to "slave labor". If you watched the Simpsons you are doing so thanks to "slave labor".

Really the hypocrisy in this thread is deafening.

/i generally do care half a shiat about Chinese laborers - but I started caring in the 80s when we started massively outsourcing everything
//I now return you to your false outrage
 
2012-02-01 04:01:20 PM  

1macgeek: correction of your faulty logic? Ok. Tell me - do you have pictures Steve Jobs personally holding a gun against the temples of the hundreds of thousands of worker's temples to get them to build Apple products?


You don't understand! To many people who read fark - Steve Jobs personally came into their bedrooms when they were 5 and fark'd them while they were asleep! Then he kicked their puppy and ate their apple sauce.

/its the only reason I can gave for all the irrational hate they have for the guy
 
2012-02-01 04:07:18 PM  

bravian: 1macgeek: correction of your faulty logic? Ok. Tell me - do you have pictures Steve Jobs personally holding a gun against the temples of the hundreds of thousands of worker's temples to get them to build Apple products?

You don't understand! To many people who read fark - Steve Jobs personally came into their bedrooms when they were 5 and fark'd them while they were asleep! Then he kicked their puppy and ate their apple sauce.

/its the only reason I can gave for all the irrational hate they have for the guy



No, Steve Jobs can be as big a jerk as he was. The problem is you can't cause that much suffering and still claim to be a Buddhist.

Here, I'll make a handy little chart for you:

Christian: No problem being a jerk and making a profit on the misery of others.
Jew: No problem being a jerk and making a profit on the misery of others.
Muslim: No problem being a jerk and making a profit on the misery of others.
Buddhist: Sorry, making a profit on the misery of others violates the Eightfold Path!

Does that help?
 
2012-02-01 04:32:16 PM  

zetar: Does that help?


Yea - because it would be totally kewl to live in total harmony with the land and, like, totally farm it, be at peace with nature and romp with the bunnies!

/oh wait - that is third world country where farmers are generally starving, work even longer hours than factory workers, and make no money
 
2012-02-01 04:34:33 PM  

steamingpile:
I agree but you and I both know that everyone followed apples lead on this, it will take a worker rebellion to get this to stop but I think if/when that happens the chinese military will be sent in to squash it, I wonder if the rest of the world will have the balls to stand up to them?



(balls assembled in USA from imported components)
 
2012-02-01 04:36:01 PM  

bravian: zetar: Does that help?

Yea - because it would be totally kewl to live in total harmony with the land and, like, totally farm it, be at peace with nature and romp with the bunnies!



Or, you know... you could pay people more or work them less and only lose a percent or two in profit.

Nah... that's too much to ask. They're poor, so they're barely people.
 
2012-02-01 04:46:35 PM  

bravian: zetar: Does that help?

Yea - because it would be totally kewl to live in total harmony with the land and, like, totally farm it, be at peace with nature and romp with the bunnies!

/oh wait - that is third world country where farmers are generally starving, work even longer hours than factory workers, and make no money


Let's try this again, but real s-l-o-w for you, mmkay?

It is a basic Buddhist belief that it is immoral to exploit people for profit. mmkay?

But, Steve Jobs exploited people for profit (a lot of profit!) mmkay?

Therefore, Steve Jobs couldn't have been a Buddhist. mmkay?

Steve Jobs was probably a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim or a Mormon because it's just fine to exploit people for a profit as long as you kick some back to your church/temple/synagogue. mmkay?

/ Next time I'll explain it with pictures for you. mmkay?
 
2012-02-01 05:49:37 PM  

zetar: It is a basic Buddhist belief that it is immoral to exploit people for profit. mmkay?


... but doing it for free is ok-fine. Thanks for clearing that up.
 
2012-02-01 05:51:53 PM  
No one said anything about this until after Steve Jobs died. Seriously, Tim Cook is acting all Jerry Sandusky all of a sudden about this issue.

Besides, slaves have done a lot of things such as the pyramids, the South, the Roman Empire, etc. We shouldn't be getting rid of this type of culture, but put it in a positive light. I bet in five years all these slaves will become automated.
 
2012-02-01 06:01:29 PM  
The dude signs his letter as simply 'Tim'? What a douche.
 
2012-02-01 06:04:10 PM  
1macgeek: Of *course* Jobs didn't hold a gun against their heads. The Chinese gov't did it for him. It's not really a *choice* to leave your farm and join a factory when the gov't bulldozes your farm and then builds a factory on top of that land. Funny thing, turns out even Chinese people need to eat and so they really have no choice but taking that factory job.

(I'm sure there are some who do it voluntarily too, but definitely not all of them.)

(Google "chinese farmland seizures if you don't believe me.)

(Not that I suspect you will anyway.)
 
2012-02-01 06:04:43 PM  

zetar: Obligatory:

Mr. Daisey and the Apple Factory (new window).


I got to see his show last summer. Would strongly recommend it. It's actually a combination of 2 shows, 1 being "A history of Apple", and the other being "Wow, the factories suck".

/with an intermission of "So that's what all those businessmen are being paid for". Apparently, China does not "get" PowerPoint at ALL. So they would put one sentence on one slide, say the sentence, look at him, he would nod, they would go to the next slide... According to him, it's the worst sort of hell and you couldn't pay him enough to do that permanently.
 
2012-02-01 06:11:22 PM  

1macgeek: zetar: It is a basic Buddhist belief that it is immoral to exploit people for profit. mmkay?

... but doing it for free is ok-fine. Thanks for clearing that up.



If you exploit somebody just for the hellofit you're just a generic jerk. Or maybe a Republican. Not really sure about that.
 
2012-02-01 06:12:25 PM  

YoungLochinvar: (Google "chinese farmland seizures if you don't believe me.)


I don't, and I did. Well, not Google, because I don't use them anymore. I use ixquick.com. What did I find from 27 DEC 2011? This :

China's Wen vows end to cheap seizures of farmland

Now... you were saying something before jamming your foot up to the ankle in your mouth...
 
2012-02-01 06:14:36 PM  

zetar: If you exploit somebody just for the hellofit you're just a generic jerk. Or maybe a Republican. Not really sure about that.


My, looky the jerk who misquoted and mangled Buddhist belief get all pissy. Tell me - specifically which of the Noble Eightfold Path do you think Steve Jobs mangled?
 
2012-02-01 06:23:39 PM  

1macgeek: zetar: If you exploit somebody just for the hellofit you're just a generic jerk. Or maybe a Republican. Not really sure about that.

My, looky the jerk who misquoted and mangled Buddhist belief get all pissy. Tell me - specifically which of the Noble Eightfold Path do you think Steve Jobs mangled?



I'm going to with "Right Livelihood" on this, Bob.

What's the deal with you? Do you really think that Apple's behavior in China is appropriate ("One former Foxconn executive told the Times that "Apple never cared about anything other than increasing product quality and decreasing production cost." Perhaps more troubling was the insight of a former Apple executive, who said: "We've known about labor abuses in some factories for four years, and they're still going on." )?


Or are you just a paid shill for either Apple or China?
 
2012-02-01 06:28:10 PM  

zetar: I'm going to with "Right Livelihood" on this, Bob.


And what is right livelihood?
 
2012-02-01 06:33:34 PM  
Oh, and I almost forgot :

zetar: Or are you just a paid shill for either Apple or China?


No, I just really, really get off on calling a self-appointed Buddhist cop and hypocrite on the carpet for getting all pissy while calling on the carpet what he perceives as another Buddhist being a hypocrite. Buddha laughs at you, what with you shattering about a bazillion principles of Buddhism in your pursuit.
 
2012-02-01 06:46:14 PM  
1macgeek: Yes, I saw that article. From... oh, wait, that's only a month and a half ago. How is my foot in my mouth again?

(Don't bother replying. You can, but I'm going to ignore you as you're either an idiot or a troll.)
 
2012-02-01 06:51:30 PM  

YoungLochinvar: (Don't bother replying. You can, but I'm going to ignore you as you're either an idiot or a troll.)


And it looks like you can't face reality. It gave direct lie to your claim the Chinese government was "stealing" land at the behest of Steve Jobs. So, of course, you are going to ignore me rather than confront an article which proves you wrong.
 
2012-02-01 06:53:17 PM  

1macgeek: Oh, and I almost forgot :

zetar: Or are you just a paid shill for either Apple or China?

No, I just really, really get off on calling a self-appointed Buddhist cop and hypocrite on the carpet for getting all pissy while calling on the carpet what he perceives as another Buddhist being a hypocrite. Buddha laughs at you, what with you shattering about a bazillion principles of Buddhism in your pursuit.


Well, you're absolutely right about that: Buddhists shouldn't criticize others. I'm guilty of that.

But I think Jobs' behavior was absolutely reprehensible. His actions caused great suffering. Even after his death, the things that Jobs did still continue to cause terrible suffering.

Do you really want me to explain the Eightfold Path? I rather doubt that. If you are a Buddhist then you know that making a living by profiting on the suffering of others goes against Right Livelihood.

But I rather doubt you're a Buddhist. In your replies you exhibit not the slightest bit of compassion or reason. Mostly you just use bluster and name call.

I guess you're just a troll. Unless you really are a paid shill for Apple and China (I wonder if they just hire one astroturf organization between the two of them now).

On the off-chance that you really do think that Apple and Jobs' behavior is perfectly reasonable and fine would you care to make a reasoned argument supporting this? Is the crux of your argument that you get to purchase Apple gear cheaper than if the workers' rights as human beings were protected? Or perhaps pollution is just fine if it results in a cheaper iPad for you?
 
2012-02-01 07:02:48 PM  
This headline was an attention-grabber :

Thousands Aim to Land Job at Foxconn Despite Harsh Conditions

So wait a minute... why would Foxconn want to buy trouble by adding 100,000 new workers to the miserable, depressed, suicidal lot they have now? Unlike so many people on here who can't think, and find using the internet just too taxing to discover something themselves, I looked up the suicide rate in China. And cross-referenced that with the WHO. And then fired up the not-so-wayback-machine and ran across this article from an obvious shill for Apple or China. And another one from that Apple shill, New Zealand.

Bottom line : Conditions are sooooooooo bad at Foxconn the suicide rate is a fraction of the national average in China.

However, don't let pesky little things get in the way of your irrational hatreds. Can't have that, now can we?
 
2012-02-01 07:05:31 PM  

zetar: On the off-chance that you really do think that Apple and Jobs' behavior is perfectly reasonable and fine would you care to make a reasoned argument supporting this?


Yes.

If someone makes a freewill choice to perform labor for a renumeration to which they freely agree to accept, then from where comes the suffering?
 
2012-02-01 07:16:02 PM  

1macgeek: zetar: On the off-chance that you really do think that Apple and Jobs' behavior is perfectly reasonable and fine would you care to make a reasoned argument supporting this?

Yes.

If someone makes a freewill choice to perform labor for a renumeration to which they freely agree to accept, then from where comes the suffering?


I would argue that the Chinese workers are not being given the working and living conditions that they were promised; that they are, in fact, being held as slaves.

If you have not done so I would strongly urge you to listen to This American Live episode Mr. Daisey and the Apple Factory (new window). This broadcast makes a compelling argument that Apple's Chinese workers are, for all intents and purposes, slaves; stripped of all human rights.

/ Also, it's remuneration, not 'renumeration'. Renumeration might mean 'renumbering' if it actually meant anything at all.
 
2012-02-01 07:33:35 PM  

zetar: I would argue that the Chinese workers are not being given the working and living conditions that they were promised


Irrelevant. I asked a very specific question to which I expect an equally specific answer.
 
2012-02-01 07:44:31 PM  
zetar: he's a moron or a troll (maybe both), why are you bothering to argue with him? he'll never come around and you'll just get more pissed off...

/well, if you're like me. work has been shiatty today.
 
2012-02-01 07:49:20 PM  

1macgeek: zetar: I would argue that the Chinese workers are not being given the working and living conditions that they were promised

Irrelevant. I asked a very specific question to which I expect an equally specific answer.



My response is hardly irrelevant. Nonetheless, you posit an argument that if both sides of a contractual agreement adhere to the agreement then there should be no cause for suffering. Your argument is specious because:

1. If two people enter into an agreement in which one party pays the other to be whipped until death then clearly suffering will result.

2. If two people enter into an agreement in which one party misrepresents the working conditions then suffering may result.

3. If two people enter into an agreement in which one party hides the true working conditions then suffering may result.

There are, obviously, many other rebuttals to your argument. Even if both parties had complete knowledge of the working conditions before the agreement was entered into suffering can still result.
 
2012-02-01 07:56:42 PM  

YoungLochinvar: zetar: he's a moron or a troll (maybe both), why are you bothering to argue with him? he'll never come around and you'll just get more pissed off...

/well, if you're like me. work has been shiatty today.


You're right, of course.
 
2012-02-01 08:06:14 PM  

zetar: There are, obviously, many other rebuttals to your argument.


Will one of them actually get around to answering the question asked?
 
2012-02-01 08:11:29 PM  

1macgeek: zetar: There are, obviously, many other rebuttals to your argument.

Will one of them actually get around to answering the question asked?



Okay, you're officially either a troll, a moron or a paid shill.

/ And, with that, I now ignore you. Buh bye.
 
2012-02-01 08:23:39 PM  
Funny how the thread ends when people stop replying to the troll.

Don't bother macgeek, already ignored.
 
2012-02-01 08:26:48 PM  

zetar: Okay, you're officially either a troll, a moron or a paid shill.

/ And, with that, I now ignore you. Buh bye.


And you are practicing deception, which is a very big NO-NO for a Buddhist. Overall, I can't see where you get off criticizing Steve Jobs on anything. From my perspective he was honest where you are not.
 
2012-02-01 09:38:35 PM  

YoungLochinvar: 1macgeek: Yes, I saw that article. From... oh, wait, that's only a month and a half ago. How is my foot in my mouth again?

(Don't bother replying. You can, but I'm going to ignore you as you're either an idiot or a troll.)


Its obvious he's a troll, it wouldn't shock me if he's part of apples PR department, he has spent 2-3 days trying to say apple doesn't use slave labor or uses the excuse "everyone does it so its ok"

My ignore lost is very short but he made it.
 
2012-02-02 12:35:05 AM  
steamingpile: do (possible) paid shills fall under the banner of trolls? I suppose they're equally irritating, though...

/back to science
 
2012-02-02 01:55:34 AM  

tboucher: This blaming apple for the labor in china is amusing as fark. You people whining about it saying Apple is evil are idiots. If you are using a computer, regardless of who's sticker is on the outside some chinese kid was beaten and forced to make it for pennies an hour and they LOVE IT.

Those towels you get for $2 at wal-mart? yeah, chinese labor.

Everything with a made in china sticker on it is made with low paid pennies compared to what we pay people labor. Blaming apple is headline getting and inflammatory but is not the problem. Everything made in china is made this way, or worse. Time people woke up to that.

oh and we didn't get rid of manufacturing jobs and move them to china because it was 'too expensive'. That's bullshiat. We moved jobs to China because we went all robotic and automated and didn't need a person doing manual labor and be paid for it when 10 people can run a factory that ran hundreds of employees before.

The chinese just do it cheaper than we can with robots even. Because they don't get paid shiat, they are oppressed, and we've loved it for years but since it's cool to hate apple for turning around the company and making things a lot of us love and line up to buy it's great for the haters to point at them and blame them for everything from their ivory slave labor built towers.


Clinton gave our future away to China for campaign contributions.
 
2012-02-02 01:58:19 AM  

1macgeek: This headline was an attention-grabber :

Thousands Aim to Land Job at Foxconn Despite Harsh Conditions

So wait a minute... why would Foxconn want to buy trouble by adding 100,000 new workers to the miserable, depressed, suicidal lot they have now? Unlike so many people on here who can't think, and find using the internet just too taxing to discover something themselves, I looked up the suicide rate in China. And cross-referenced that with the WHO. And then fired up the not-so-wayback-machine and ran across this article from an obvious shill for Apple or China. And another one from that Apple shill, New Zealand.

Bottom line : Conditions are sooooooooo bad at Foxconn the suicide rate is a fraction of the national average in China.

However, don't let pesky little things get in the way of your irrational hatreds. Can't have that, now can we?


So leftist governments are still worse than slave labor camps?
 
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