dittybopper: One thing the article doesn't mention is tunnel vision: You focus on the person in front of you, and you don't notice his buddy coming up on the side of you with a billy club in his hand...

It also doesn't mention a hundred other things.

The best fighting advice I ever got on real life fighting was ironically from an old TSR Dungeons and Dragons sourcebook that was expounding on killing beholders: The best way is to get someone far stronger and more experienced than you to do it for you.

The second best was from a military self defense manual from the 70's. If all else fails, go crazy. In real life, no one wants to fight the wolverine because the wolverine is too farkin' mad to know when it's been beat.

I bounced for about 12 years.

Not a big guy. Only 5'6" and the only reason I was much good at it is because I'm kind of a jerk. Call it barely concealed rage issues, but I was good at the job, because I didn't mind hurting people fairly badly for a living. I practiced, I trained, I was professional. I put a lot of guys down without throwing a single punch.

Hurt them? Oh Hells yeah. Because in a real fight, knowing what you're doing comes in real handy. Atemi. Kensetsuwaza. Chokes. Throws. It all comes in handy, because overwhelming pain response works wonders at sobering guys up, and suddenly losing the ability to raise an arm means that they're not trying to punch or choke you.

Fair? Not in the playground sense, by any means. Protecting my team and my patrons though, was more important than the opinion of some coked up frat boy and his buddies.

I was taught to never throw a fist at the head. Fists are good for soft targets. Knees and elbows, and open hands were the weapons of choice. Heel palm, blade of hand, or just grabbing and rotating joints to get someone down and locked up. Never throw a kick above your waist. Disengaging is always an option, and then coming back in. Once you get someone down, you KEEP on them. Real fights aren't a lot of fun. They aren't like sparring. People bite. People spit. People are f*cking pigs when they get scared or angry. A guy will cry like a little girl to be let go, and then try to spike you in the nuts the second you let up. I preferred to put a guy down as quickly as possible because long fights favor guys with more mass. I'm not a big guy. I wanted them down as fast as possible, because I AM relatively easy to pick up and throw. Not easy to catch necessarily, but get your hands on me, I'm 165, which means that I can go flying.

Real fights are no fun. Spar, do MMA, train, but leave the real fights to the cops and bouncers, because the asshats who do like to fight? They're f*cking pigs.

#7. Unless you are backed into a corner with no way to escape and someone is trying to cause you bodily harm, fighting is pretty god damned stupid.

I have not seen a thread with such spectacular ITG potential in a long, long time.

In before the Peacock rage.

dittybopper: In my own admittedly limited experience in this (and that experience is now well over 20 years old), to quote Sailor, "Boy, you usin' that oriental martial bullshiat on me's gonna get real expensive."

I actually had someone try that against me in a fight, and it didn't work out too well for them. I don't flip or throw so easily.

To be fair: style means only a system of learning. Boils down to practice. And oddly enough, most styles come down to basics. Arms, legs, spines, only move in so many ways. Styles teach very similar ways of dealing with things. Call it ch'in na, kensetsu waza, grappling, the arm breaks the same when forced past a certain point.

I trained with a lot of folks. My father was a trainer for the Army. He was the third class to go to Israel in a program to train for anti-terrorism, and my sister was the 33rd class. The program updated. I don't spar with my sister often, because she is dag nasty. In Amherst I trained with a fellow who is former Spetnaz, and in his gym, we have boxers, cops, and MMA folks. Everyone learns from everyone else. And to be fair, the boxers have an advantage in that they know how to get hit, and have good footwork. Experience in getting hit is important. Knowing what to expect, how to deal with the pain, and how to absorb punishment is important.

Knowing how to avoid being hit is better. How to shut someone down with a single shot so you don't have to deal with them while their two buddies roll up on you is better.

Style is just a system of teaching, and the human body only moves in so many ways. A punch is a punch is a punch. The same principles of mass and velocity cut across all styles. Boils down to practice, and experience. I prefer jujitsu as a training style, because of how jujitsu builds skill sets. Showy is not rewarded on the mat, putting your opponent down and tapping is. Efficiency and economy of motion is rewarded, and getting a guy immobilized and NOT trying to hurt folks is key when you do security.

Ideally, you want guys--or gal--in clubs to NOT be swinging and hurting your patrons or your team. If that means a shot to the jimmy, that's what they get. If that means taking the arm that they offer and using that to take them down, so be it. If that means backing up and letting them over extend, and then getting them down, so be it. If that means a shot to bread basket, you take that. The key is to have them not injuring patrons, or themselves, in the process.

I just use my 20th degree ninja blackbelt skills, instantly hypnotise them into punching themselves in their faces. Works every time.

Pocket Ninja: I have not seen a thread with such spectacular ITG potential in a long, long time.

That was my first reaction when I read this headline, too.

Get out the plastic sheeting and bring plenty of towels. This one's going to be a real corker.

I have a brown belt in Flung Pu.

waiting on the posts from people who got a blue belt in tae kwon do, were on the "tournament team" but have never had a real physical altercation to tell us how they kick ass

All these fighting threads can be summed up easily: Fighting is harder than it looks so expect to get hurt. Also, training will make a world of difference. The end.

The good thing about being tall and athletic looking is that you don't have to do stupid things like get in fights, people generally leave you alone.

t3knomanser: Pocket Ninja: I have not seen a thread with such spectacular ITG potential in a long, long time.

I'm a reverse ITG. I've never met a conflict situation that I couldn't weasel my way out of. I haven't been in an actual fight since middle school, and that can hardly count, can it? On the rare occasions that I did fight when I was a wee lad, I didn't really have a strategy or skill- I threw myself on top of someone and wailed on their face. Never did any real damage or harm, but it scared the bejeesus out of them.

To be fair, that's often a better way to go.

One of the things that we liked to do at the club--Pearl Street and beyond--was to calm things down before they got ugly. I lost a couple of guys from the team during a dust up at a show. One of my guys broke someone's arm--really, the guy broke his own arm, and Bob was just holding him. He kept it together really well, until after the crowd left, and then he went out back and puked his guts out, and then quit.

I don't bounce anymore because I don't like who I was when I was working. You lose a lot of empathy, and it takes you into some bad places inside. You have to cut off a lot, and while you joke with the guys, you often overcompensate in other areas, and it's just not a good place to be in. My sister was an MP, and she is a genuine bad ass, but she doesn't even really train anymore. Has a job in an office and doesn't talk about her time overseas much. She was cold when she came back, and it took a lot of years to come back to a normal sort of existence.

There's a marked difference in training for sport, and training to hurt people. I still go to Amherst Athletics, but you can tell the cops and security guys from the MMA hopefuls. There's some crossover, and it's all good in practice, but a world of difference how you approach training.

t3knomanser: Klippoklondike: Fighting is harder than it looks so expect to get hurt.

It goes farther- in a real fight (not a schoolyard tussle), even if you "win", you lose. Once it gets to the point where people are actually trying to do real physical harm to each other, there is not going to be a winner. There's just the guy that's hurt less.

Plus there's the whole getting hauled off to jail thing.

OK fine. (new window)

I have a few friends who are black belts in Shotokan Karate. My only martial training is in wrestling. When we sparred, I generally won despite my lack of training in strikes because once I got in close, they really had no moves to use. Now if they had been trained in judo, jiu-jitsu, or Krav Maga, the outcome likely would have been different

Hit the soft parts with your hand (or foot). Hit the hard parts with a tool. Why else did we go through the trouble of evolving opposable thumbs?

ArkAngel: I have a few friends who are black belts in Shotokan Karate. My only martial training is in wrestling. When we sparred, I generally won despite my lack of training in strikes because once I got in close, they really had no moves to use. Now if they had been trained in judo, jiu-jitsu, or Krav Maga, the outcome likely would have been different

See, I've got nothing but respect for wrestlers. Summer before last I spent in Mesa Verde, and one of our guys was an All State wrestler from Ohio. Alex was good. I mean, really good. Great guy, always cheerful, probably the most positive human I've ever met. He was a great guy to spar with, because he knew how to spar effectively, and was genuine in his ability to give and push. Knew when to back off, knew when to amp things up a bit, and always learning and teaching at the same time. The mountain was a lot of fun to train, because of the altitude and there was a LOT of flat ground at our base camp with plenty of grass and fairly soft loam, so we didn't need mats, so much as some space.

Had a few guys who did MMA, and did security, and a few ex-cops to work with, and it was a great environment to train in, because there was very little ego. You got put down, they'd pick you back up, and then we'd see where things went tits up, and we'd all work on where we were weakest. Then go get some drinks and ogle pretty Filipino girls.

And I'll just add this as a bit of on-topic commentary. As someone who has extensive combat training across multiple martial arts, many of which you've probably never heard of before and one of which is actually classified, and as a former trainer for the marine core, my favorite move has always been to stand in front of my attacker with my legs slightly bent and just about shoulder width apart. My hands are open, slightly curled, and my chin is tucked down. I am staring at my opponent with my eyes tilted up so that he can see a lot of white. He goads me but I only grunt: hooosh. That focused my energy. Then he throws a punch and I slip it by twisting my shoulders (but keeping them level). I come back to face him and hoosh again. He throws another punch, wide thinking that he's going to catch my slip, but with lightning reflexes I dart my hand into the path of his punch and catch it mere inches from my face. He struggles a moment against my vice-like grip, but then I begin to twist against the bone and his face turns into a grimace as he crumples to his knees. He's weeping by the time I let him go. I can't even tell you how many fights I've ended that way, and it's actually far more merciful than any number of alternatives I could use.

Jake Havechek: You are at your most vulnerable immediately after your punch does not connect.

No ITG and I haven't been in a fight in almost a decade, but palm strikes are surprisingly effective for the hard parts.

Also, low kicks to the side of the knee and strikes to the throat with the blade of your hand. Though that can kill someone if their Adam's apple collapses, so it's not advised unless there aren't any other options.

/giant wuss
//have no desire to fight anymore, it hurts and you almost always end up feeling like an asshole

Pocket Ninja: And I'll just add this as a bit of on-topic commentary. As someone who has extensive combat training across multiple martial arts, many of which you've probably never heard of before and one of which is actually classified, and as a former trainer for the marine core, my favorite move has always been to stand in front of my attacker with my legs slightly bent and just about shoulder width apart. My hands are open, slightly curled, and my chin is tucked down. I am staring at my opponent with my eyes tilted up so that he can see a lot of white. He goads me but I only grunt: hooosh. That focused my energy. Then he throws a punch and I slip it by twisting my shoulders (but keeping them level). I come back to face him and hoosh again. He throws another punch, wide thinking that he's going to catch my slip, but with lightning reflexes I dart my hand into the path of his punch and catch it mere inches from my face. He struggles a moment against my vice-like grip, but then I begin to twist against the bone and his face turns into a grimace as he crumples to his knees. He's weeping by the time I let him go. I can't even tell you how many fights I've ended that way, and it's actually far more merciful than any number of alternatives I could use.

You, sir, are a badass and I fear you.

timujin: Jake Havechek: You are at your most vulnerable immediately after your punch does not connect.

No ITG and I haven't been in a fight in almost a decade, but palm strikes are surprisingly effective for the hard parts.

Also, low kicks to the side of the knee and strikes to the throat with the blade of your hand. Though that can kill someone if their Adam's apple collapses, so it's not advised unless there aren't any other options.

/giant wuss
//have no desire to fight anymore, it hurts and you almost always end up feeling like an asshole

Shooting them in the back from a place of concealment is also effective.

Pocket Ninja: And I'll just add this as a bit of on-topic commentary. As someone who has extensive combat training across multiple martial arts, many of which you've probably never heard of before and one of which is actually classified, and as a former trainer for the marine core, my favorite move has always been to stand in front of my attacker with my legs slightly bent and just about shoulder width apart. My hands are open, slightly curled, and my chin is tucked down. I am staring at my opponent with my eyes tilted up so that he can see a lot of white. He goads me but I only grunt: hooosh. That focused my energy. Then he throws a punch and I slip it by twisting my shoulders (but keeping them level). I come back to face him and hoosh again. He throws another punch, wide thinking that he's going to catch my slip, but with lightning reflexes I dart my hand into the path of his punch and catch it mere inches from my face. He struggles a moment against my vice-like grip, but then I begin to twist against the bone and his face turns into a grimace as he crumples to his knees. He's weeping by the time I let him go. I can't even tell you how many fights I've ended that way, and it's actually far more merciful than any number of alternatives I could use.

You forgot that the best way to stop a kick is with your gigantic balls. Seriously. Just train them by allowing anyone around you haul off and square kick you in the gonads. Toughens them right up, and in a few years of Iron Jimmy training, you can knock people unconscious with them.

TEA BAGGING FOR GREAT JUSTICE!

hubiestubert: [lh5.googleusercontent.com image 640x480]

I bounced for about 12 years.

Not a big guy. Only 5'6" and the only reason I was much good at it is because I'm kind of a jerk. Call it barely concealed rage issues, but I was good at the job, because I didn't mind hurting people fairly badly for a living. I practiced, I trained, I was professional. I put a lot of guys down without throwing a single punch.

Hurt them? Oh Hells yeah. Because in a real fight, knowing what you're doing comes in real handy. Atemi. Kensetsuwaza. Chokes. Throws. It all comes in handy, because overwhelming pain response works wonders at sobering guys up, and suddenly losing the ability to raise an arm means that they're not trying to punch or choke you.

Fair? Not in the playground sense, by any means. Protecting my team and my patrons though, was more important than the opinion of some coked up frat boy and his buddies.

I was taught to never throw a fist at the head. Fists are good for soft targets. Knees and elbows, and open hands were the weapons of choice. Heel palm, blade of hand, or just grabbing and rotating joints to get someone down and locked up. Never throw a kick above your waist. Disengaging is always an option, and then coming back in. Once you get someone down, you KEEP on them. Real fights aren't a lot of fun. They aren't like sparring. People bite. People spit. People are f*cking pigs when they get scared or angry. A guy will cry like a little girl to be let go, and then try to spike you in the nuts the second you let up. I preferred to put a guy down as quickly as possible because long fights favor guys with more mass. I'm not a big guy. I wanted them down as fast as possible, because I AM relatively easy to pick up and throw. Not easy to catch necessarily, but get your hands on me, I'm 165, which means that I can go flying.

Real fights are no fun. Spar, do MMA, train, but leave the real fights to the cops and bouncers, because the asshats who do like to fight? They're f*cking ...

Bounced and did security for a few years as well and everything you said applies to me as well, strangely enough even down to the whole 5'6" thing.

Your Zionist Leader: Bounced and did security for a few years as well and everything you said applies to me as well, strangely enough even down to the whole 5'6" thing.

What is it that Heinlein said? Never frighten a little man...

Therion's first rule of unarmed combat: find a weapon!

(never use small bones to hit big bones, your brain is your best weapon, tools are your friends, and if you ever fight except in self defense or to defend someone else, you're living wrong).