Sybarite: I don't get why people who have good professional healthcare available would choose a method that triples the chance newborn mortality.

Because all of those hormones running through her body gives her temporary insanity.

As opposed to the "temporary" insanity that women contract when they get married and seem to make permanent

/*ducks*

Finally! A subby who knows the definition of irony.

Home birthing: because fark centuries of medical advancement, I'm a farking hippy and I want to be in enormous pain while squirting out a baby into my bathtub.

Never have popped a baby out but I imagine when it does happen I'm going to be scared to death and will want a doctor by my side.

Bloody William: Home birthing: because fark centuries of medical advancement, I'm a farking hippy and I want to be in enormous pain while squirting out a baby into my bathtub.

Who cleans the bathtub after that?

DAT HEADLINE

/I lol'd

Sybarite: I don't get why people who have good professional healthcare available would choose a method that triples the chance newborn mortality.

Because man the medicalindustrialcomplex man that's just what they want to to believe man, it's like all in your mind man. Don't buy into their schemes man.

/my brain hurts

Because nothing else would prove your commitment to the cause of actively encouraging moms to forego birth in a safe, hygenic environment well-prepared for any complication, and instead making a huge, revolting mess inside your dwelling in the absence of advanced medical equipment and a staff of highly-trained professionals. Who wouldn't want that, right?

Bloody William: Home birthing: because fark centuries of medical advancement, I'm a farking hippy and I want to be in enormous pain while squirting out a baby into my bathtub.

My sister did this on her farm in the middle of nowhere Maine. She also said afterword, "What the hell was I thinking? Bring on the drugs."

That's a little too ironic.

Yeah, I really do think.

Nonono. That is not *truly* ironic. It would *only* be ironic when the woman had in fact BEEN Alanis Morisette, whose mother had died while giving birth to her, while a gyneacologist had been singing.

Or something.

WorkingInParadise: "That's not ironic"
"Yes it is"
"no, it's not..."
blah blah blah

I came here for an argument!

I advise for all women to give birth in their own home. This way you give your baby a chance at life by keeping them off the grid and out of the federal governments grasp.

Ever watch enemy of the state. Real story bro.

It's like rain when your water breaks

JC

Honestly, the disgustingly selfish home birthing industry pisses me off even more than the idiots who don't vaccinate their children. At least we have herd immunity to protect the children from their asshat parents. Home birthing, though? You're putting your child's life at risk, you farking self-righteous, narcissistic douchebag asshole for what your own "experience"?

I'll take this opportunity to say that I'm irritated with the use of the word 'tapped' to mean 'selected.' I'm not sure when that caught on popularly, but Jesus, it's not like people have a spigot sticking out of them that you turn on. You didn't tap them, you picked them out or selected them.

I don't see how any woman could squeeze a baby out her hoo ha without the benefit of morphine

KillTheStupid: Finally! A subby who knows the definition of irony.

I may be literary impaired, but I can't find the irony in this. She advocates giving birth at home. Giving birth at home has a higher risk of mortality for the mother and child. She advocates a risky method of giving birth and died for her cause. How is the literal meaning different from the actual meaning in that?

We are not hippies. We also had health insurance that would have paid for a hospital birth. Wife and I decided that because of the high percentage of medical intervention that is deemed "necessary" we decided to have our child at home. 44 hours of labor, perfectly healthy 10lbs baby girl born at home. She's 18 months old now and we would do it again.

Someone who advocates rejecting modern medicine dies after rejecting modern medicine? I'm shocked.
(replace with homeopath, Christian Scientist, etc.)

Fortunately my wife didn't go for any of this nonsense. There was a minor complication with #1 (24 hours of labor, too little fluid) but he came out naturally. Our daughter 16 months later was 7 hours of labor, 20 minutes of pushing, about as easy as it gets.

This woman proves exactly why you want medical professionals seconds away when you're doing something dangerous like this.

Orgasmatron138: I'll take this opportunity to say that I'm irritated with the use of the word 'tapped' to mean 'selected.' I'm not sure when that caught on popularly, but Jesus, it's not like people have a spigot sticking out of them that you turn on. You didn't tap them, you picked them out or selected them.

It's not an "extract beer from the keg" kind of tap. It's the "I'm gently touching you on the shoulder" kind of tap.

But think of the money she saved on the birth.
Now they need to think about home cremation services. Don't give all that money to the 'funeralindustrialcomplex'.

blondski: Bloody William: Home birthing: because fark centuries of medical advancement, I'm a farking hippy and I want to be in enormous pain while squirting out a baby into my bathtub.

Who cleans the bathtub after that?

It's actually handy for pro-choicers, because it lets them literally throw the baby out with the bathwater.

/The best thing about the placenta is cold placenta sandwiches the next day.

D-D-D-Dave: KillTheStupid: Finally! A subby who knows the definition of irony.

I may be literary impaired, but I can't find the irony in this. She advocates giving birth at home. Giving birth at home has a higher risk of mortality for the mother and child. She advocates a risky method of giving birth and died for her cause. How is the literal meaning different from the actual meaning in that?

It's ironic because those types of people advocate doing stuff 'naturally' because they believe it to be safer than using modern medicinal practices, and yet those are the people who die.

D-D-D-Dave: KillTheStupid: Finally! A subby who knows the definition of irony.

I may be literary impaired, but I can't find the irony in this. She advocates giving birth at home. Giving birth at home has a higher risk of mortality for the mother and child. She advocates a risky method of giving birth and died for her cause. How is the literal meaning different from the actual meaning in that?

Dramatic irony -- the character involved suffers a mishap because she isn't aware of a key piece of information that the audience knows.

topgun4291: We are not hippies. We also had health insurance that would have paid for a hospital birth. Wife and I decided that because of the high percentage of medical intervention that is deemed "necessary" we decided to have our child at home. 44 hours of labor, perfectly healthy 10lbs baby girl born at home. She's 18 months old now and we would do it again.

I hope that if you do it again it all works out for you the same as last time, but you are putting your partner and child at risk. What if medical intervention IS necessary to save your wife or child?

Now we in turn get to stand up and grandstand to everyone on how it's dangerous, right?

Andromeda: What I never get about home birth is who in hell thinks I'd want to clean that shiat up, least of all after having a baby?

Silly girl. You're supposed to eat it. The best thing about home birth is that there are no doctors to try and steal your after-birth to eat themselves. As an atheist it's the closest we can legally get to eating babies.

I can understand you'd be tired after all that though. Get out the tupperware and put it all in the fridge to cook up later.

TravisBickle62: I don't see how any woman could squeeze a baby out her hoo ha without the benefit of morphine

Wife did. 3 times. She's scared to death of needles.

She figured women have been birthing babies naturally since the beginning of time without pain medication, she figured she could do it too.

JC

Egoy3k: topgun4291: We are not hippies. We also had health insurance that would have paid for a hospital birth. Wife and I decided that because of the high percentage of medical intervention that is deemed "necessary" we decided to have our child at home. 44 hours of labor, perfectly healthy 10lbs baby girl born at home. She's 18 months old now and we would do it again.

I hope that if you do it again it all works out for you the same as last time, but you are putting your partner and child at risk. What if medical intervention IS necessary to save your wife or child?

Then you transfer to a hospital.

Bloody William: /The best thing about the placenta is cold placenta sandwiches the next day.

Mmm... placenta with roquefort on dark rye. Damn, now I'm gonna be hungry all day.

Midwife Cath Curtin told 7News: "In 2012 I don't think there's a place for home births."

Sure there is. Home.

rebelyell2006: Someone who advocates rejecting modern medicine dies after rejecting modern medicine? I'm shocked.
(replace with homeopath, Christian Scientist, etc.)

"Alternative medicine by its very definition has either not been proven to work or been proven not to work. Know what they call alternative medicine that works? Medicine." - Tim Minchin

If you have 10 minutes, it's worth the watch:

Tim Minchin's Storm (new window)

Depending on the complication, being in the hospital was no guarantee of survival. Depending on the complication it might not even have improved her chances - and even if it did would not guarantee a good outcome or even survival.

I wish people understood that even generally healthy women can die giving birth, have unknown issues that complicate birth, - childbirth is fraught with peril and can turn on a dime, seemingly going great and then disaster occurs.

Maternal death in childbirth is uncommon but not actually RARE.

D-D-D-Dave: I may be literary impaired, but I can't find the irony in this. She advocates giving birth at home. Giving birth at home has a higher risk of mortality for the mother and child. She advocates a risky method of giving birth and died for her cause. How is the literal meaning different from the actual meaning in that?

The irony is that 1) she advocates for home birth and, most likely, tells people that it is a safe way to give birth. Then 2) she dies while doing what she tells other people is a safe thing to do.

Voila! Irony.

I mean sure I know I'm supposed to feel sad and all that crap when some some one dies but frankly,



She wanted to give birth at home. She did.

/Too many farking people on this planet anyways.

topgun4291: Egoy3k: topgun4291: We are not hippies. We also had health insurance that would have paid for a hospital birth. Wife and I decided that because of the high percentage of medical intervention that is deemed "necessary" we decided to have our child at home. 44 hours of labor, perfectly healthy 10lbs baby girl born at home. She's 18 months old now and we would do it again.

I hope that if you do it again it all works out for you the same as last time, but you are putting your partner and child at risk. What if medical intervention IS necessary to save your wife or child?

Then you transfer to a hospital.

That clearly didn't work in this case why are you sure it would work for you?

Couldn't you just go to a hospital in the first place and then refuse any procedures that you deem unnecessary and then have the help standing by in case it's needed? Then again you are not a doctor so who the hell are you to decided whats necessary with any hope of being correct? Do you tell your mechanic how to fix your car or your?

People who buy winning lottery tickets all think buying lottery tickets is a good idea.

And yet America has the highest c-section rate in the developed world. Only in America do we combine birthing with sick people. Use modern medicine by all means, just don't think because it's the way we in America do it makes it the right way to do it.

There are birthing centers all around. Look into them, you'll be glad you did.

My younger brother was born at home; no problems at all. Of course, the birth was attended by a doctor, and we lived only a couple minutes from a hospital. Have a few friends who've done it, too.

Honestly, birth is one of those things that sorts itself out until it doesn't, and that's when you need someone who can step in and either manipulate the fetus or start cutting immediately. The time window on these sorts of things isn't exactly huge. We had an issue with the birth of our first child -- it wasn't more than 5 minutes from the time the problem was recognized the emergency c-section was complete. Everyone turned out fine, but a few minutes more and it wouldn't have been a good scene. Here, I wonder how much at fault the midwife is for either failing to recognize the signs of a major issue, or simply lacking the medical skill to correct it before it was too late.

gambitsgirl: topgun4291: We are not hippies. We also had health insurance that would have paid for a hospital birth. Wife and I decided that because of the high percentage of medical intervention that is deemed "necessary" we decided to have our child at home. 44 hours of labor, perfectly healthy 10lbs baby girl born at home. She's 18 months old now and we would do it again.


we

love it.

we.

That's what the wife said. "We". I'll admit that it was mostly her :-). I do remember being active for a few minutes 40 weeks prior then us rushing off to go bowling. True story. Still have the score card. Bowled a 209.

I'm glad my wife had our little one in the hospital...especially after they decided he wasn't making enough progress, and had to gut her like a fish.

I think I drank enough of the juice in the kitchen to make up for our hospital bill, too.

Sybarite: I don't get why people who have good professional healthcare available would choose a method that triples the chance newborn mortality.

The good midwives are medical professionals. They just focus their careers on birthing unlike the ob-gyn that fits birthing in with their practices. What I have seen the midwives have very good survival numbers. I am not impressed with hospitals after my sil's friend almost bled out after giving birth. If my sil wasn't in the room she would've died from a damaged artery.

topgun4291: We are not hippies. We also had health insurance that would have paid for a hospital birth. Wife and I decided that because of the high percentage of medical intervention that is deemed "necessary" we decided to have our child at home. 44 hours of labor, perfectly healthy 10lbs baby girl born at home. She's 18 months old now and we would do it again.

Maybe not hippies, but definately assholes who put their child's life at risk.topgun4291: Egoy3k: topgun4291: We are not hippies. We also had health insurance that would have paid for a hospital birth. Wife and I decided that because of the high percentage of medical intervention that is deemed "necessary" we decided to have our child at home. 44 hours of labor, perfectly healthy 10lbs baby girl born at home. She's 18 months old now and we would do it again.

I hope that if you do it again it all works out for you the same as last time, but you are putting your partner and child at risk. What if medical intervention IS necessary to save your wife or child?

Then you transfer to a hospital.

So you had a doctor at home with you? Along with ultrasound, fetal heart rate monitor, etc.?

they should have tried the latest rage called extreme birthing: cram her into Lamborghini , maintain an average speed of 120 mph, while holding an extremely full bowl of hot chili and a large extra hot coffee. No spilling!

Scariest part of TFA:

"A spokeswoman for Midwives in Private Practice told the Herald Sun it was the first time she had heard of a maternal death following a home birth in her 15 years' experience.

"It's very very rare and it's just impossible to imagine what might have happened," she told the newspaper."

If you were properly trained, you wouldn't have to guess at the possible adverse outcomes.

Most of the people who support home birth aren't anti-science or trying to do so for religious reasons... they're simply people who are convinced that the medical establishment have a few wonky ideas about birthing. And their reasons are actually pretty well-rationalized.

For instance, one of the most common medical procedures is the C-Section. In much of the western world, there's at least a 25% chance that any birth will involve this procedure, and in the US it's nearly 50%. Many of the C-Sections performed in the US are performed entirely because of hospital and insurance rules, but when a woman gives birth in her own home, she doesn't have to live by those rules and can attempt delivery without C-Section. (VBAC is one particularly easy example of this, as most hospitals don't allow VBAC).

For many women, this is a power issue - who has power over their pregnancies. Do we give power to the doctors (a stereotypically masculine profession), or to the midwives (a stereotypically feminine profession)?

Since fark has strong birthing opinions--- what is fark's view of the father being there in the delivery room?

Sybarite: I don't get why people who have good professional healthcare available would choose a method that triples the chance newborn mortality.

{Citation needed}

blondski: Since fark has strong birthing opinions--- what is fark's view of the father being there in the delivery room?

Probably the same view as everything else: pics, or it didn't happen

meanmutton: topgun4291: We are not hippies. We also had health insurance that would have paid for a hospital birth. Wife and I decided that because of the high percentage of medical intervention that is deemed "necessary" we decided to have our child at home. 44 hours of labor, perfectly healthy 10lbs baby girl born at home. She's 18 months old now and we would do it again.

Maybe not hippies, but definately assholes who put their child's life at risk.topgun4291: Egoy3k: topgun4291: We are not hippies. We also had health insurance that would have paid for a hospital birth. Wife and I decided that because of the high percentage of medical intervention that is deemed "necessary" we decided to have our child at home. 44 hours of labor, perfectly healthy 10lbs baby girl born at home. She's 18 months old now and we would do it again.

I hope that if you do it again it all works out for you the same as last time, but you are putting your partner and child at risk. What if medical intervention IS necessary to save your wife or child?

Then you transfer to a hospital.

So you had a doctor at home with you? Along with ultrasound, fetal heart rate monitor, etc.?

3 midwives attended. They had some medical equipment. I remember a Doppler monitor, oxygen and other items. We also had a detailed plan that involved situations where we would transfer to a hospital. Combined the women who attended the birth had assisted in over 750 births.

blondski: Since fark has strong birthing opinions--- what is fark's view of the father being there in the delivery room?

If I were the father, I'd want to be there. Although, I might need a chair for when I get light-headed.

Dying at home giving birth? Now that is old school...

topgun4291: 3 midwives attended. They had some medical equipment. I remember a Doppler monitor, oxygen and other items. We also had a detailed plan that involved situations where we would transfer to a hospital. Combined the women who attended the birth had assisted in over 750 births.

Isn't that what cops use to catch speeders? Just how fast did that baby shoot out?!

My Brother and his wife had one kid in a hospital, one in a birthing center, and one at home. Birth at the hospital was a complete cluster and his wife almost died. Other two were just fine.

meanmutton: Honestly, the disgustingly selfish home birthing industry pisses me off even more than the idiots who don't vaccinate their children. At least we have herd immunity to protect the children from their asshat parents. Home birthing, though? You're putting your child's life at risk, you farking self-righteous, narcissistic douchebag asshole for what your own "experience"?

Huh?

My wife tried to deliver at home, but things weren't going well by hour 19. At that point, our midwife said "now is the time to go to the hospital to reduce the chances of infection and other potential harm to the baby." Thus, we headed off to a hospital and she got her epidural and naturally delivered 11.5 hours later.

Only an incompetent midwife would try to a) do a home delivery if you have prenatal detected risks and/or b) keep you there too long if there's trouble.

And yet nobody ever makes a big deal of the THOUSANDS of women each year who die giving birth in hospitals or who die of infection or hemmorhage (sp?) shortly thereafter.

When even Amnesty International says that your country's maternity care is "scandalous and disgraceful", you've really got to wonder what's safer...

blondski: Since fark has strong birthing opinions--- what is fark's view of the father being there in the delivery room?

I was for the two we have, and will be for the one on the way. All c-sections. My experience was a bit different than most, though, as the ob/gyn was a good friend of my wife (who is also a doctor), so they did everything they could during the surgery to try to get me to puke: splattering me with blood, holding up her uterus, talking about food and anatomy at the same time, etc. Awesome time, really.

topgun4291: meanmutton: topgun4291: We are not hippies. We also had health insurance that would have paid for a hospital birth. Wife and I decided that because of the high percentage of medical intervention that is deemed "necessary" we decided to have our child at home. 44 hours of labor, perfectly healthy 10lbs baby girl born at home. She's 18 months old now and we would do it again.

Maybe not hippies, but definately assholes who put their child's life at risk.topgun4291: Egoy3k: topgun4291: We are not hippies. We also had health insurance that would have paid for a hospital birth. Wife and I decided that because of the high percentage of medical intervention that is deemed "necessary" we decided to have our child at home. 44 hours of labor, perfectly healthy 10lbs baby girl born at home. She's 18 months old now and we would do it again.

I hope that if you do it again it all works out for you the same as last time, but you are putting your partner and child at risk. What if medical intervention IS necessary to save your wife or child?

Then you transfer to a hospital.

So you had a doctor at home with you? Along with ultrasound, fetal heart rate monitor, etc.?

3 midwives attended. They had some medical equipment. I remember a Doppler monitor, oxygen and other items. We also had a detailed plan that involved situations where we would transfer to a hospital. Combined the women who attended the birth had assisted in over 750 births.

But you didn't have the machine that goes "Ping" OR the most expensive machine in the hospital, I bet. Shame on you for endangering your child that way.

Bloody William: Home birthing: because fark centuries of medical advancement, I'm a farking hippy and I want to be in enormous pain while squirting out a baby into my bathtub.

Or, you know, your mother's spine was nicked during the epidural and her spinal fluid drained out, then she's ordered to remain completely still while in the throes of labor or risk death or permanent paralysis... while in the hospital... and then during the second birth the doctor cut her too deeply for the episiotomy and well... let's just say she had to have a LOT of reconstructive surgery :/

/mom has worked at a birth center - which does both home and center births - for something like 20 years now. She's witnessed thousands and thousands of births.
//*two* infant deaths, none during a home birth (some hospital transfers), no dead mothers. You just have to be careful and smart (center won't do twins, breeches, or people over 38 ... and are referred to a doctor at the first sign of anything weird with the pregnancy. Midwives keep oxygen, IV fluids, and IV antibiotics on hand)
///I had my kid at the center, as did my sister (not hippies - neither is my mom)... husband was born at home (his mom is HIPPY AS HELL, but that's besides the point)
////$3000 for a home birth, $3500 for center... covered by insurance

I'm curious: could this have been foreseen? I don't have a problem with people who choose to give birth at home when there aren't any complications or extraordinary risk factors.

The ones who deny reasonable medical care are another matter entirely. I have two reasons for opposing them. One is that for almost all of recorded human history -and almost certainly prehistory as well- childbirth was the number one killer of women: more than natural or ecological disasters, more than any disease, and more than any kind of violence. The other is that while average life expectancy has been trending upward for much of history, maximum life expectancy hasn't: almost all of humanity's increase in average life expectancy is due to decreasing infant and child mortality. Neither of these two factors would have been possible without the "medicalization of childbirth" that homebirthing advocates decry so much: indeed, it could be argued that said medicalization is entirely responsible for these dramatic improvements to the human condition. That's not a thing to be rejected lightly: if there isn't an unusual amount of risk then that's one thing, but to turn down necessary care for nothing more than aesthetic concerns is outright negligent.

Given the mess and the...oozing...after the first one, I'm pretty happy that Secondus is being born in a hospital too. Bringing my softball mitt this time though.

rebelyell2006: D-D-D-Dave: KillTheStupid: Finally! A subby who knows the definition of irony.

I may be literary impaired, but I can't find the irony in this. She advocates giving birth at home. Giving birth at home has a higher risk of mortality for the mother and child. She advocates a risky method of giving birth and died for her cause. How is the literal meaning different from the actual meaning in that?

It's ironic because those types of people advocate doing stuff 'naturally' because they believe it to be safer than using modern medicinal practices, and yet those are the people who die.

You ever take a moment to ponder how it is that an act that is absolutely essential for the continuation of our species has come to be such a lethal event that it must be done in a "controlled setting" at a hospital while the rest of the animal kingdom seems to be getting by just fine?

Tapakip: And yet America has the highest c-section rate in the developed world.

So? I get that this is unaesthetic, but I don't see what makes it an actual problem.

Only in America do we combine birthing with sick people.

Um... err... no. I can't even begin to count the ways in which this is wrong: it starts from fundamentally flawed assumptions and definitions, and continues with faulty reasoning. It's pure appeal to emotion.

Millennium: I'm curious: could this have been foreseen? I don't have a problem with people who choose to give birth at home when there aren't any complications or extraordinary risk factors.

The ones who deny reasonable medical care are another matter entirely. I have two reasons for opposing them. One is that for almost all of recorded human history -and almost certainly prehistory as well- childbirth was the number one killer of women: more than natural or ecological disasters, more than any disease, and more than any kind of violence. The other is that while average life expectancy has been trending upward for much of history, maximum life expectancy hasn't: almost all of humanity's increase in average life expectancy is due to decreasing infant and child mortality. Neither of these two factors would have been possible without the "medicalization of childbirth" that homebirthing advocates decry so much: indeed, it could be argued that said medicalization is entirely responsible for these dramatic improvements to the human condition. That's not a thing to be rejected lightly: if there isn't an unusual amount of risk then that's one thing, but to turn down necessary care for nothing more than aesthetic concerns is outright negligent.

I would argue (and the science backs me up) that the single greatest factor in reducing maternal mortality was the advancement of germ theory and appropriate infection protocols. It was the work of Semmelweis that reduced maternal mortality rates by 90%.

blondski: Since fark has strong birthing opinions--- what is fark's view of the father being there in the delivery room?

Do what you think is best for you and your family. If you want to be there, but not watch the kid come out, focus on your wife's face and let her crush your hand instead of watching. If bodily fluids and what not are just too gross for you to handle, leave the room when the nurse tells you it is time to push or is checking on things, this is particularly easy to do if you have other children or relatives you could be outside the door calling up to give an update to.

Birth involves some pretty disgusting things. Many women puke during transition which is why the hospitals don't like for them to eat anything while in labor. The head coming down the birth canal pushes out fecal material which is why enemas used to be standard, now it isn't but if she has the epidural she likely won't have any idea it happened. The water breaking smells distinctly not like urine. It also has blood in it.

Baby comes out covered in white cottage cheese like stuff that had been protecting the skin from pruning up. Amazing as they are, they are most certainly not cute when first born. For the first few hours the baby is rather cone headed if it is a vaginal birth.

It's a pretty interesting experience and really rather fascinating, but if you honestly don't think you can handle being in the room, don't be in the room. You can be there and not look too. Ask your wife what she thinks and go from there.

/been there, done that
//doing that yet again in April

StrangeQ: rebelyell2006: D-D-D-Dave: KillTheStupid: Finally! A subby who knows the definition of irony.

I may be literary impaired, but I can't find the irony in this. She advocates giving birth at home. Giving birth at home has a higher risk of mortality for the mother and child. She advocates a risky method of giving birth and died for her cause. How is the literal meaning different from the actual meaning in that?

It's ironic because those types of people advocate doing stuff 'naturally' because they believe it to be safer than using modern medicinal practices, and yet those are the people who die.

You ever take a moment to ponder how it is that an act that is absolutely essential for the continuation of our species has come to be such a lethal event that it must be done in a "controlled setting" at a hospital while the rest of the animal kingdom seems to be getting by just fine?

The rest of the animal kingdom includes animals who eat their young, the young who eat their mothers, mothers who pop out eggs and abandon them, and mother animals that die during live birth (and live birth in itself is rare compared to the other forms of birth). Humans are just civilized enough to try to control the process and have backup systems to help when something goes wrong, instead of just leaving the mother to die.

Two women that I work with had children at home quite by accident. By the time they realized they were in labor, they were fully dilated and babby was coming out. Both ended up delivering on the bathroom floor, then tidied themselves up and went to the hospital to get checked out.

CatPeople: Not too long ago, historically, people used to shiat and piss into a pot or pan and throw it out the window. Then we stopped, and now point and laugh at the piss-pot advocates with the nasty lawns.

And not too long ago, mothers use to feed babies from their own boobies. Then in the 1970s, they stopped, and people pointed and laughed at breastfeeding moms while they fed their babies formula.

Now they realize they were dumbasses. Not every modern decision is right.

Egoy3k: Sybarite: I don't get why people who have good professional healthcare available would choose a method that triples the chance newborn mortality.

Because man the medicalindustrialcomplex man that's just what they want to to believe man, it's like all in your mind man. Don't buy into their schemes man.

/my brain hurts

There are stupid things that happen at hospitals. I had an unneccesary episiotomy (It makes a crunch sound, FYI) because of the staffing levels at the hospital, and not in ANY way because of the progress of my labor.

At the same time, I also had an epidural, because I'm not farking crazy.

The most important thing I learned from the experience is to ALWAYS have a patient advocate. Someone who knows what you want and don't want, and INSISTS on making those things happen. Hospitals can be quite 'tardy, but I would still choose them over home birth. Although these days I'm perfectly fine with the idea of a midwifing area that is near to AND on call to a local hospital for those who prefer that method.

I'm 12 seconds and what is this?

Lots of uninformed blasting of home birth up in here today.

In hospitals, about 67% of women are given medical interventions that many people feel are unnecessary.

The cycle usually goes something like this:

1. Doctor says birth isn't progressing fast enough, gives woman pitocin, which stimulates VERY hard contractions and doesn't give the woman time to dilate naturally.
2. Woman is in more pain than she would have been with normal contractions, and they give her an epidural to counteract that.
3. The epidural takes away the pain, but also slows down the contraction cycle again. Bring on MORE pitocin!
4. The hard contractions keep coming, but the baby isn't progressing down like it should (see my first point about not dilating naturally.)
5. Doctor says baby is in distress from the prolonged birth and recommends a C-Section.
6. Woman receives C-Section that might not have been necessary if they had not started the cycle of interventions in the first place.

It's a sad thing to see, and it's a result of the training the L&D people have been spoon fed--many labor and delivery ward doctors and nurses think giving pitocin to a laboring mother is standard operating procedure. Labors are sometimes long and drawn out affairs, especially with first-time mothers. But a long and drawn-out labor is not productive to the hospital's bottom line-- they need to have room in those delivery beds for more births. Insurance companies pay more to a hospital and it's doctors for C-Sections, resulting in America's C-Section rates shooting to the HIGHEST in the civilized world. For more information, watch "The Business of Being Born". It's made by Ricki Lake, but it has a pretty good look at how this cycle of interventions goes in our modern world.

People who don't want to be caught up in this cycle have a couple of options:

If they want to have their birth in a hospital, they should labor at home as LONG as possible. If you go in right after your contractions start, and the doc checks you and finds you are only 2cm, they're going to give you pitocin. You can tell them no, but they'll argue with you about it. If you labor longer at home, hopefully by time you go in you will be 5cm or more, and you can more easily avoid interventions.

If they want to have their birth at home, the only safe way to do so (IMO) is with a registered nurse midwife on hand at the birth. She can do almost everything a doctor can, except for a C-Section. She'll also make sure that if a problem occurs, she can have an ambulance on hand to transfer you to a hospital. If you want to do a home birth alone, or with only a doula, or in a location that is far from the nearest medical help, you are setting yourself up for what could be a dangerous situation.

tl:dr: If you want to avoid medical interventions at the hospital, birthing at home can be done safely and responsibly if you take the correct precautions and have the right people on hand.

In California and Texas it is legal but the states are rethinking it not because of the risk to mothers but because of fraud and dishonest midwives selling live birth certificates to none citizens.



US Immigration News - January 2010
Healthcare for illegal immigrants has emerged as a hot topic in the healthcare ...
in which Mexican born children had forged birth certificates signed by midwives.
http://www.usimmigrationnews.org/2010/january.htm

Is He a Citizen?
Sep 21, 2011 ... A border that is less porous has meant a boon for immigration ... My spouse is
here illegally for the last 10 or 20 years. ..... Alice is a midwife and has seen in the
county, some of it near the .... The Recorder's office records the birth on a paper
form and this form is placed into an index of birth certificates.
http://www.thomaslarson.com/publications/san-diego-reader/216-is-he-a - citizen.html

Thousands, including Oregonians, are stuck in passport limbo ...
Oct 6, 2008 ... Federal report on birth certificate fraud (PDF) ... comes on the heels of anti-illegal-
immigrant groups proposing state and ... But in the 1980s and 1990s, dozens of
midwives were convicted of forging U.S. birth certificates for ...
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/10/thousands_of_mexican _ americans.html

Millennium: Tapakip: And yet America has the highest c-section rate in the developed world.

So? I get that this is unaesthetic, but I don't see what makes it an actual problem.

It's major surgery, and comes with all the risks that any major surgery does. Cutting into the body has a host of problems that are best avoided IF possible.

However, America also has a lot of erm, *cough* older mothers and a dedication to saving fetii at earlier and earlier stages which I think clouds up the C-section rates a little.

blondski: Since fark has strong birthing opinions--- what is fark's view of the father being there in the delivery room?

Mrs. Argh insisted. I still have some PTSD symptoms from the experience, what with the watching one of my favorite places tear open and getting hit with the resultant spray of fluids like something from a slasher flick.

In retrospect, fan of the conception. Not so much of the rest of fatherhood.

/27 hours of labor, 5 natural and then induced because the midwife was going off shift in 4 hours so wanted it done with
//still in labor when the midwife came back on shift
///no real complications other than babby having a broken nose due to birth canal of steel

thismomentinblackhistory: just_ducky: Lots of uninformed blasting of home birth up in here today.

Just a bit. I'm staying out of it since I'll never get pregnant, despite regular injections of semen.

You sound gay.

(Checks profile)

How about that.

topgun4291: Then you transfer to a hospital.

That's what they lady in the article did. Get it?

Aidan: Millennium: Tapakip: And yet America has the highest c-section rate in the developed world.

So? I get that this is unaesthetic, but I don't see what makes it an actual problem.

It's major surgery, and comes with all the risks that any major surgery does. Cutting into the body has a host of problems that are best avoided IF possible.

However, America also has a lot of erm, *cough* older mothers and a dedication to saving fetii at earlier and earlier stages which I think clouds up the C-section rates a little.

Yep. My last c-section didn't heal for 14 months. I was walking around with a hole in my stomach for over a year. Eventually, my stomach had to be opened BACK up, the incision had to be cut and cleaned up, and they had to completely re-do my outer incision. I had multiple bouts of infection and was on broad-spectrum antibiotics for over a year. And I was LUCKY! Because they eventually FIXED my problem (after a year). But that hole in my stomach? All the infections? If I were NOT so lucky, any of those complications could have easily become fatal, even months after my birth.

Zagloba: Bloody William: /The best thing about the placenta is cold placenta sandwiches the next day.

Mmm... placenta with roquefort on dark rye. Damn, now I'm gonna be hungry all day.

[burtongusterabouttopuke.jpg]

AFAIK, the only show to actually mention it in the birthing process.

BurnShrike: blondski: Since fark has strong birthing opinions--- what is fark's view of the father being there in the delivery room?

If I were the father, I'd want to be there. Although, I might need a chair for when I get light-headed.

I had no problems personally. One vaginal, one c-section. Lots of blood, tears and guts. Since none were mine, it was A-ok. ; )

Sybarite: SarahBW: Depending on the complication, being in the hospital was no guarantee of survival. Depending on the complication it might not even have improved her chances - and even if it did would not guarantee a good outcome or even survival.

I wish people understood that even generally healthy women can die giving birth, have unknown issues that complicate birth, - childbirth is fraught with peril and can turn on a dime, seemingly going great and then disaster occurs.

Maternal death in childbirth is uncommon but not actually RARE.


In the United States in 2005 the number was down to 11 per 100,000 births. I'm curious as to your definition of rare.

Warm and bright red in the middle, seared and lightly charred on the outside, juices run red when you cut into it.

So that's actually pretty close...

StrangeQYou ever take a moment to ponder how it is that an act that is absolutely essential for the continuation of our species has come to be such a lethal event that it must be done in a "controlled setting" at a hospital while the rest of the animal kingdom seems to be getting by just fine?

Oh, it doesn't. Just if you want a high rate of survival it does. I just love the idiotic "If birth were that dangerous we wouldn't be here as a species" bullshiat. As long as at least 50% of women survive, the human race will go on. Women and babies have been dying in great numbers during childbirth for centuries before modern obstetrics, it's just that enough survived to perpetuate the species. If you'd like to know why birth is more dangerous for homo sapiens rather than say, cats, it's due to our upright stance (smaller pelvis for walking upright) and large brains. Great evolutionary advantages...if you survive your arrival. That's the trade off.

Are people this thick-headed? Natural fallacy has become a religion of sorts.

" it's just impossible to imagine what might have happened"

"I think you need to be informed," she warned

ya think??

We try to control a process which we ultimately have no control over. All we can do is risk mitigation and make "informed choices." Mothers and babies can and do die regardless of setting. My beef is that if something is preventable, I want a hospital surrounding me and a surgeon diving in, pronto. As much as midwives have a place for healthy non-complicated pregnancies and births, it is easily forgotten that women can and do need medical intervention to have successful deliveries. Not all of us are built like viking wives.

/2 c-sections
//first one after 20 hrs labor w/3 hrs pushing, failed epidural, and hospital staff making me do all the silly natural stuff to speed along labor
///second one was scheduled, successful spinal block, and hubby was in the room for that one
////hooray for c/section slashies

You know we human life forms have been bouncing around on this little blue ball for a couple of hundred-thousand years now. "Clean" and "safe" hospitals have only been prevalent in First-World countries for about the last seventy-five years, fifty years in newer countries/governments, and still on the kitchen table in about two-thirds of the world. There are about seven billion of us now so it seems to me that we have been doing okay so far. Besides we in the U.S. are in no place to be preaching. "The U.S. infant mortality rate is higher than those in most other developed countries." (Source) Your baby has a better chance of surviving in Singapore!

/had ours in a hospital, you heathen.

reillan: Most of the people who support home birth aren't anti-science or trying to do so for religious reasons... they're simply people who are convinced that the medical establishment have a few wonky ideas about birthing. And their reasons are actually pretty well-rationalized.

For instance, one of the most common medical procedures is the C-Section. In much of the western world, there's at least a 25% chance that any birth will involve this procedure, and in the US it's nearly 50%. Many of the C-Sections performed in the US are performed entirely because of hospital and insurance rules, but when a woman gives birth in her own home, she doesn't have to live by those rules and can attempt delivery without C-Section. (VBAC is one particularly easy example of this, as most hospitals don't allow VBAC).

Yeah but then an asshole kid like me comes along, that actually needed a C-section because I was unable to pass threw the birth canal. Yeah I guess the world would of been okay without me around, but I wonder if the other parents of needed c-section babies feel the same way.

It's more about having an actually doctor-patient relationship, who you have talked over your birthing plans with and not just going to some ass hat emergency room M.D. And anyone(not in a third world country) who isn't willing to seek professional medical help to give birth, does not give a damn about there child or the child's mother.

So if you were a parachuting advocate, and died while parachuting, this would be ironic? I need a new dictionary. And I need to start being an advocate of something. Because apparently that means you are supposed to not die.

Also, after 3 kids and being present at each one, I never, not once, was at the business end during delivery.

I think it was a psychological thing of seeing my wife's hooha squirt something out the size of a small watermelon.

JC

Amishrabbit: Because nothing else would prove your commitment to the cause of actively encouraging moms to forego birth in a safe, hygenic environment well-prepared for any complication, and instead making a huge, revolting mess inside your dwelling in the absence of advanced medical equipment and a staff of highly-trained professionals. Who wouldn't want that, right?

Or, it could be they don't want to have to take out a second mortgage just to afford a 4-hour visit to the hospital?

Giving birth in a hospital can be insanely expensive. For the amount they charge, you'd think the mother was having brain or heart surgery done.

Then there is the media scare-mongering that claims doctors will force them to have a Cesarian, just so the doctors can get it over with sooner (and charge even MORE money for the "surgery")

safeforwork: Bloody William: Home birthing: because fark centuries of medical advancement, I'm a farking hippy and I want to be in enormous pain while squirting out a baby into my bathtub.

Or, you know, your mother's spine was nicked during the epidural and her spinal fluid drained out, then she's ordered to remain completely still while in the throes of labor or risk death or permanent paralysis... while in the hospital... and then during the second birth the doctor cut her too deeply for the episiotomy and well... let's just say she had to have a LOT of reconstructive surgery :/

/mom has worked at a birth center - which does both home and center births - for something like 20 years now. She's witnessed thousands and thousands of births.
//*two* infant deaths, none during a home birth (some hospital transfers), no dead mothers. You just have to be careful and smart (center won't do twins, breeches, or people over 38 ... and are referred to a doctor at the first sign of anything weird with the pregnancy. Midwives keep oxygen, IV fluids, and IV antibiotics on hand)
///I had my kid at the center, as did my sister (not hippies - neither is my mom)... husband was born at home (his mom is HIPPY AS HELL, but that's besides the point)
////$3000 for a home birth, $3500 for center... covered by insurance

You have to be very careful when deciding on whether or not to have a home birth. We went to the hospital for the first one, had the second one at home. The third one started off at home, but she took so long for the labor that we ended up going to the hospital, just to be safe.

My main reason fo not wanting to have a baby in the hospital was because I'd choose to have pain drugs, if they were available. Those drugs go into the baby's sytem, and can interfere with the birthing process. Also, as mentioned above, hospitals love to do c-sections, because it's more convenient for them. I, on the other hand, want to do what's best for the baby.

/Did you know that electronic fetal monitors are screwed directly into the baby's scalp? At least they used to be...

Earpj: topgun4291:
Then you transfer to a hospital.

Would've been too late for my oldest. She was dying and had to get out, like...5 minutes ago.

Ya know, now days one can tell the doctor to back the fark off unless needed.

No, you can't. There have been stories of women who wanted to refuse a c-section who had their babies taken away from them for "mental instability" (after those babies were delivered safely WITHOUT c-section), or of women who failed to show up at the hospital for their scheduled induction/c-section who had the COPS go to their homes to get them. There are MANY stories of women who have had doctors perform episiotomies AGAINST THEIR WILL. As a doula, I saw one doctor give a woman a completely unnecessary episiotomy while she was screaming, "NO! DON'T CUT ME!"

If someone could demonstate that hospital births somehow hurt the baby or the woman, I'd be open to this idea. Thus far I've never seen such evidence.

Our youngest had the cord wrapped around his neck, which they detected early with all their fancy hospital equipment. A team of specialized nurses were on hand to immediately treat him when he came out.

A relatively routine procedure...in a fecking MODERN HOSPITAL.

Even if it's a .5% increase in safety for the mother and child, I don't know why you wouldn't do it.

Amishrabbit: Because nothing else would prove your commitment to the cause of actively encouraging moms to forego birth in a safe, hygenic environment well-prepared for any complication, and instead making a huge, revolting mess inside your dwelling in the absence of advanced medical equipment and a staff of highly-trained professionals. Who wouldn't want that, right?

some hospitals treat women like cattle, don't bathe the newborns, and the 'doctors' are drunk..also have black mold problems.. who wouldn't want that, right?

There is a higher rate of deaths for both mothers and infants through c-section then there is natural birth. The US Infant Mortality rate is right up there with 3rd world countries because hospitals are business and they make 10x the money gutting unsuspecting young woman then promoting safe natural birth.

Both of my daughters were home births, but not for lack of trying. My first kid was born 10 years before the next one, and was a c-section. The hospital and doctor who did that could not recover the medical records from that surgary, and because of that no hospital would allow my wife to have a natural birth. It got even more retarded when after the 1st daughter was born they still refused on the 2nd one because of the missing records from the 1st kid over 10 years ago.


Link (new window)

Musto: You know we human life forms have been bouncing around on this little blue ball for a couple of hundred-thousand years now. "Clean" and "safe" hospitals have only been prevalent in First-World countries for about the last seventy-five years, fifty years in newer countries/governments, and still on the kitchen table in about two-thirds of the world. There are about seven billion of us now so it seems to me that we have been doing okay so far. Besides we in the U.S. are in no place to be preaching. "The U.S. infant mortality rate is higher than those in most other developed countries." (Source) Your baby has a better chance of surviving in Singapore!

/had ours in a hospital, you heathen.

Our infant mortality rate is actually somewhat skewed by all the extremely early births where the child lives, but wasn't developed enough to actually survive. Anything before 36 weeks is really premature. No one likes to admit it, but the extremely premature tend not to survive, we only really hear about the exceptions, not the norms.

I'd love to see a study done that corrects for extreme prematurity. Say all births after 36 weeks, and then compare by nation and so on. My suspicion is that we come out looking really good.

Sybarite: nosferatublue: Sybarite: I don't get why people who have good professional healthcare available would choose a method that triples the chance newborn mortality.

{Citation needed}


The most recent significant findings published in The American Journal of Obstetrics & Gynecology show that "Less medical intervention during planned home birth is associated with a tripling of the neonatal mortality rate."

Google the study, and you'll come up with all sorts of problems with it - for example, they included people who had unplanned, unassisted homebirths (birth at home by accident).

A planned homebirth, which is what people "choose" (to use your own words), does not triple the chances of newborn mortality.

There are six of us. My mother didn't have any option other than to have the first four at home. Her descriptions of that, and of the uncomplicated, medicated, hospital birth of my sister and me in the hospital, made a strong impression on me. My husband is also a doctor, and he is totally against the idea of home birth, even if he were the one delivering our kids. I know when I had my second child, the hospital room looked like an abbatoir -- farking blood and gore everywhere. No thanks to home birth.

Part of me wonders why this is legal, but then in this day and age our society needs every naturally selective mechanism available to us. If someone with no scientific education feels like they are better off giving birth to their child outside of a hospital and without the help of Western medicine, placing themselves and their child at unnecessary risk, then they're probably not the smartest people in the world and it doesn't exactly inspire confidence in their parenting skills down the road.

One of my wife's friends died giving birth in a hospital, therefore hospital births are bad and should be banned.

JoeCowboy: Also, after 3 kids and being present at each one, I never, not once, was at the business end during delivery.

I think it was a psychological thing of seeing my wife's hooha squirt something out the size of a small watermelon.

JC

But then who was shooting the video?

Sybarite: I don't get why people who have good professional healthcare available would choose a method that triples the chance newborn mortality.

Because natural, organic, crystals, medical industrial complex, thousands of years, shutup.

That's why!

(I like how many Anti-vaxxers will have home delivery. One is provably more dangerous and it's NOT the vaccines.)

Sybarite: The most recent significant findings published in The American Journal of Obstetrics & Gynecology show that "Less medical intervention during planned home birth is associated with a tripling of the neonatal mortality rate."

That is a VERY misleading citation, as it includes data from many nations, not just the U.S.

In addition, Neonatal means in the first month of birth-- those deaths associated with home births could be from many other reasons-- child had a birth defect or other medical problem that was never identified because the parent didn't take them in to be checked out following birth, etc and the child died later. This is unlikely to be a problem in the U.S. as even children born at home are going to receive a check up within the first couple of days from a doctor.

You also left out the rest of the citation: "Planned home births were associated with fewer maternal interventions including epidural analgesia, electronic fetal heart rate monitoring, episiotomy, and operative delivery. These women were less likely to experience lacerations, hemorrhage, and infections. Neonatal outcomes of planned home births revealed less frequent prematurity, low birthweight, and assisted newborn ventilation....planned home and hospital births exhibited similar perinatal mortality rates."

/way to skew the facts, bro

Sybarite: I don't get why people who have good professional healthcare available would choose a method that triples the chance newborn mortality.

Because it's all about me. And my experience. And me. And how I feel about me. And me. Why should I care about the health of my baby when it's all about me?

SarahBW: Depending on the complication, being in the hospital was no guarantee of survival. Depending on the complication it might not even have improved her chances - and even if it did would not guarantee a good outcome or even survival.

I wish people understood that even generally healthy women can die giving birth, have unknown issues that complicate birth, - childbirth is fraught with peril and can turn on a dime, seemingly going great and then disaster occurs.

Maternal death in childbirth is uncommon but not actually RARE.

Right? I totally know this dude who was in a car accident, and his car flipped three times before going into a ditch full of alligators. He wasn't wearing a seat belt and was thrown form the car. The paramedic told him that he would have died if he was in the car when the alligators got to it. That's why I NEVER wear a seat belt - they'll just get you killed.

Andromeda: I live in the Netherlands, and while you'd think this country would be on top of things like giving birth in the hospital you wouldn't believe how huge home birth is here. Several of my Dutch friends were born at home, and my friend who is currently preggers and is not Dutch tells me her midwife keeps pressuring her into home birth or to not have an epidural when she goes to the hospital.

What I never get about home birth is who in hell thinks I'd want to clean that shiat up, least of all after having a baby?

it's just a lil blood & amniotic fluid..couple of towels thrown in the washer & 'mess' all cleaned up.. the midwife usually takes care of it anyway..

Loreweaver: Amishrabbit: Because nothing else would prove your commitment to the cause of actively encouraging moms to forego birth in a safe, hygenic environment well-prepared for any complication, and instead making a huge, revolting mess inside your dwelling in the absence of advanced medical equipment and a staff of highly-trained professionals. Who wouldn't want that, right?

Or, it could be they don't want to have to take out a second mortgage just to afford a 4-hour visit to the hospital?

Giving birth in a hospital can be insanely expensive. For the amount they charge, you'd think the mother was having brain or heart surgery done.

Then there is the media scare-mongering that claims doctors will force them to have a Cesarian, just so the doctors can get it over with sooner (and charge even MORE money for the "surgery")

If you can't afford the bills for giving birth, then you probably can't afford to raise a child. Why is this such a hard thing for people to understand.

But yeah there are, for the poorer people who feel like passing on the joys of poverty for another generation, government assistance programs, if they still feel like having the benefits of medical professional.

It is ironic because she actually died in a hospital.

/my family used a nurse midwife at a birthing center.

just_ducky: Sybarite: The most recent significant findings published in The American Journal of Obstetrics & Gynecology show that "Less medical intervention during planned home birth is associated with a tripling of the neonatal mortality rate."

That is a VERY misleading citation, as it includes data from many nations, not just the U.S.

In addition, Neonatal means in the first month of birth-- those deaths associated with home births could be from many other reasons-- child had a birth defect or other medical problem that was never identified because the parent didn't take them in to be checked out following birth, etc and the child died later. This is unlikely to be a problem in the U.S. as even children born at home are going to receive a check up within the first couple of days from a doctor.

You also left out the rest of the citation: "Planned home births were associated with fewer maternal interventions including epidural analgesia, electronic fetal heart rate monitoring, episiotomy, and operative delivery. These women were less likely to experience lacerations, hemorrhage, and infections. Neonatal outcomes of planned home births revealed less frequent prematurity, low birthweight, and assisted newborn ventilation....planned home and hospital births exhibited similar perinatal mortality rates."

/way to skew the facts, bro

This.

D-D-D-Dave: KillTheStupid: Finally! A subby who knows the definition of irony.

I may be literary impaired, but I can't find the irony in this. She advocates giving birth at home. Giving birth at home has a higher risk of mortality for the mother and child. She advocates a risky method of giving birth and died for her cause. How is the literal meaning different from the actual meaning in that?

People advocate it because it's supposedly safer.

...my pary are with the father who lost the instain mother of his chrilden ; i am truley sorry for your lots

Earpj: morgantx:

No, you can't. There have been stories of women who wanted to refuse a c-section who had their babies taken away from them for "mental instability" (after those babies were delivered safely WITHOUT c-section), or of women who failed to show up at the hospital for their scheduled induction/c-section who had the COPS go to their homes to get them. There are MANY stories of women who have had doctors perform episiotomies AGAINST THEIR WILL. As a doula, I saw one doctor give a woman a completely unnecessary episiotomy while she was screaming, "NO! DON'T CUT ME!"

Well, that's just freaky.
Having delivered in hospitals each time, I have never had an issue. Neither have any of my friends.
Wonder if it has anything to do with states or something...

It does depend a lot on region and on the hospital and sometimes on the doctors. I had some wonderful birth experiences in Kansas, but I've had nothing but problems since getting here to the Texas panhandle. Oklahoma is notoriously bad for birth, and many of the places in the Deep South are really terrible.

Oddly enough, areas that have more liberal and relaxed homebirth laws (for example, that allow licensed midwives to attend homebirths and have an active homebirthing community) tend to have much more mother/baby-friendly hospitals. I guess it's a competition thing. Areas with higher rates of breastfeeding usually have more mother/baby-friendly hospitals, along with birth center options and similar advances. Many of the problems associated with maternal mistreatment cause severe problems establishing breastfeeding. After all, if mom plans to formula-feed, it doesn't really MATTER if you drug the crap out of her, separate the baby from her in the nursery for days, and end up having to put her on heavy-duty narcotics and antibiotics to deal with the aftermath. But if she's trying to establish breast-feeding at that time? All those things can cause serious problems. So when breastfeeding becomes the "default", maternal and fetal treatment tends to improve greatly.

blondski: Since fark has strong birthing opinions--- what is fark's view of the father being there in the delivery room?

I really appreciated my husband being there. I was wonky on the epidural and endorphins and only dimly remember details about the actual moments of birth and the hour or two after. My husband fills me in on all the wonderful details and moments, and kindly omits the gory stuff.

D-D-D-Dave: I may be literary impaired, but I can't find the irony in this. She advocates giving birth at home. Giving birth at home has a higher risk of mortality for the mother and child. She advocates a risky method of giving birth and died for her cause. How is the literal meaning different from the actual meaning in that?

Irony of fate. Link (new window)

KillTheStupid: Finally! A subby who knows the definition of irony.

What are you talking about? Home birth went out of style - and deliberate home birth became illegal in many states - because giving birth is full of complications that tend to lead to the death of the mother or child.

Someone choosing to give birth at home and dying of complications isn't at all ironic - irony is when what is said or what happens is the opposite of what is true or what is expected. Irony would have been being arrested for giving a home birth, then taken to a prison hospital where she died of MRSA or contaminated blood or something that wouldn't've happened without going to the hospital.

Amishrabbit: Because nothing else would prove your commitment to the cause of actively encouraging moms to forego birth in a safe, hygenic environment well-prepared for any complication, and instead making a huge, revolting mess inside your dwelling in the absence of advanced medical equipment and a staff of highly-trained professionals. Who wouldn't want that, right?

Hospital births are not without their risks. That "safe, hygenic environment" is a good place to pick up a drug resistant infection. Being in an environment "well-prepared for any complication" greatly increases the likelihood of an un-necessary intervention. The caesarian rate in the U.S. is sky high and more and more members of the medical profession are speaking out against it.

just_ducky: Sybarite: The most recent significant findings published in The American Journal of Obstetrics & Gynecology show that "Less medical intervention during planned home birth is associated with a tripling of the neonatal mortality rate."

That is a VERY misleading citation, as it includes data from many nations, not just the U.S.

In addition, Neonatal means in the first month of birth-- those deaths associated with home births could be from many other reasons-- child had a birth defect or other medical problem that was never identified because the parent didn't take them in to be checked out following birth, etc and the child died later. This is unlikely to be a problem in the U.S. as even children born at home are going to receive a check up within the first couple of days from a doctor.

You also left out the rest of the citation: "Planned home births were associated with fewer maternal interventions including epidural analgesia, electronic fetal heart rate monitoring, episiotomy, and operative delivery. These women were less likely to experience lacerations, hemorrhage, and infections. Neonatal outcomes of planned home births revealed less frequent prematurity, low birthweight, and assisted newborn ventilation....planned home and hospital births exhibited similar perinatal mortality rates."

/way to skew the facts, bro

Also point out that planned home births are carefully selected to be lower risk. There should be a modest disparity in interventions because the patients involved are much less likely to need any sort of intervention. The selection bias should be very heavily in favor of the people who, as far as the medical profession has been able to figure out, are unlikely to need any extraordinary care. Frankly, that's the way it should be.

Selection bias! It's kind of important.

/hope I make it to the hospital in time with this one all the same.

Andromeda: reillan: For many women, this is a power issue - who has power over their pregnancies. Do we give power to the doctors (a stereotypically masculine profession), or to the midwives (a stereotypically feminine profession)?

You realize the majority of people who graduate from medical school these days are women, right?

You do realize that doesn't change the stereotype or the fact that the rules-makers (legal entities and medical boards) are still dominated by men?

Bloody William: Home birthing: because fark centuries of medical advancement, I'm a farking hippy and I want to be in enormous pain while squirting out a baby into my bathtub.

Ahem. "Centuries of medical advancement"? Really? Hospital births have only been the norm since the 40s. The only kind of birth that's been around for "centuries" is birth at home.

I accept your apology in advance.

Orgasmatron138: I'll take this opportunity to say that I'm irritated with the use of the word 'tapped' to mean 'selected.' I'm not sure when that caught on popularly, but Jesus, it's not like people have a spigot sticking out of them that you turn on. You didn't tap them, you picked them out or selected them.

Some people do indeed have a "tap." And the vast majority that have a "tap" have it turned on when sticking out. Now you can select which person that happens to have a "tap." This is usually done in a way that is equitable manner as those who have a "tap" have free will as well...though at times it is clouded. People can even select someone else who has a "tap" if they themselves already have a "tap" of their own.


/pen 15

X-Geek: [i614.photobucket.com image 471x235]

...my pary are with the father who lost the instain mother of his chrilden ; i am truley sorry for your lots

when, oh when, did she bcemoe pergnant?

Earpj: My first was a c-section b/c she was dying.
My next one, I wanted a c-section. My doctor begged me to try a VBAC. The next 3 were also born naturally.

And in the case of a dying child, a c-section is a wonderful thing... but your experience with the doctor asking you to try VBAC is *way* outside of the norm.

Loreweaver: Then there is the media scare-mongering that claims doctors will force them to have a Cesarian, just so the doctors can get it over with sooner (and charge even MORE money for the "surgery")

Yeah, media scare-mongering.

In 2007, nearly one-third (32%) of all births were cesarean deliveries (1). Although there are often clear clinical indications for a cesarean delivery, the short- and long-term benefits and risks for both mother and infant have been the subject of intense debate for over 25 years (2). Cesarean delivery involves major abdominal surgery, and is associated with higher rates of surgical complications and maternal rehospitalization, as well as with complications requiring neonatal intensive care unit admission (3-5). In addition to health and safety risks for mothers and newborns, hospital charges for a cesarean delivery are almost double those for a vaginal delivery, imposing significant costs (6).

This report shows trends in cesarean delivery since 1991, focusing on the period from 1996 to 2007 when cesarean rates began to rise following a decline in the early 1990s. Data for 2007 are preliminary and 2006 data are presented when preliminary 2007 data are not available (1,7). CDC Link

D-D-D-Dave: KillTheStupid: Finally! A subby who knows the definition of irony.

I may be literary impaired, but I can't find the irony in this. She advocates giving birth at home. Giving birth at home has a higher risk of mortality for the mother and child. She advocates a risky method of giving birth and died for her cause. How is the literal meaning different from the actual meaning in that?

Because Alanis Morissette, that's why.

gambitsgirl:

When my kids came out I didn't care if the janitor caught them.

I also proposed to the Epidural Man.

I would never want to birth at home. ever.

Had an Epidural both times. Loved the pain relief, but not a big fan of the "tingly leg" feeling. On #2, it wasn't so much the childbirth, but the MASSIVE migraine I had afterward. On a scale of 1 to 10, it was about a 15. Got a nice Stadol drip from the nurses. Gawd, you talk about instant, blissful relief...

Gabrin_Kinoda: On #2, it wasn't so much the childbirth, but the MASSIVE migraine I had afterward.

You had a migraine because they did your epidural improperly on that one. It happens pretty frequently.

Sushi and the Banshees: Sybarite: I don't get why people who have good professional healthcare available would choose a method that triples the chance newborn mortality.

Because it's all about me. And my experience. And me. And how I feel about me. And me. Why should I care about the health of my baby when it's all about me?

No, it's about carefully weighing the risks and benefits.

With my last pregnancy, I was planning a VBAC. I was an EXCELLENT candidate, having successfully had a VBAC for my previous birth. Around 28 weeks, I mentioned to my doctor that I wanted informed consent for any medications that were given to me. I said this because 1)I've had a bad reaction to Nubain in the past, and 2)I wanted to avoid Pitocin. With prior uterine surgeries, I knew that I was at a higher-than-normal risk of uterine rupture, and Pitocin is the leading cause of uterine rupture in the United States. My doctor yelled at me. He told me that if I was going to "tie his hands", I'd get a c-section whether I wanted it or not. He tried to tell me that Pitocin doesn't cause uterine rupture. It's a pretty safe bet that when the manufacturer warns people that a drug is dangerous (because it causes uterine rupture), it's probably pretty dangerous. And I looked at the hard data. And I knew that my baby was lying posterior (back labor), which would mean a very LONG labor. That doesn't bother me; I've had a long labor before. But I knew that with his odd positioning, if I went into the hospital (which would force me to lie in bed during the entire labor, use a bedpan, and be continuously monitored), I would be diagnosed with "failure to progress" and they would try to use Pitocin on me, even though it's counter-indicated for women with prior uterine surgeries. And then either the Pitocin wouldn't "work" or my uterus would split open like a pair of pants on a fat ass, and then I'd be getting a c-section whether I planned on it or not.

I knew that given my medical history, the hospital's draconian and unnecessary policies, and my doctor's complete unwillingness to work with me at ALL, I would end up with a c-section. Since it was too late to find a new doctor and the midwives were already booked, I went ahead and scheduled a c-section in the hopes that I could at least avoid some of the complications. Instead, I ended up with LOTS of complications and problems - problems I would NOT HAVE HAD if I had been able to simply have the damn baby.

It's not about ME or about MY experience. It's about the fact that my doctor wanted to do things that were DANGEROUS for me and DANGEROUS for my baby.

Sybarite: I don't get why people who have good professional healthcare available would choose a method that triples the chance newborn mortality.

Because organic. And patchouli.

Seriously, though. There's a reason it's not the 17th century any more. We have progressed.

Big_Fat_Liar: D-D-D-Dave: KillTheStupid: Finally! A subby who knows the definition of irony.

I may be literary impaired, but I can't find the irony in this. She advocates giving birth at home. Giving birth at home has a higher risk of mortality for the mother and child. She advocates a risky method of giving birth and died for her cause. How is the literal meaning different from the actual meaning in that?

Because Alanis Morissette, that's why.

He needs more info if he did not get it, like Alanis Morissette just gave birth at home and she is famous for her song ironic.

asurferosa: asurferosa: It is ironic because she actually died in a hospital.

Well, no, that's not why it is ironic. If she was an at-home euthanator, then it would be ironic if she died in the hospital, but not terribly so. (I imagine the word is like realtor, and they get all uppity if you call them euthenater.)

/my family used a nurse midwife at a birthing center.

Good for you. It is wonderful that you live in world where you are wealthy enough to simulate an at-home birth but actually have it in a secure environment with medical care at the ready. These birth-at-home types, however, are farking morans.

Freaky_Sold_Mustard: /Too many farking people on this planet anyways.

'If they would rather die,' said Scrooge, 'they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population..."

Imma just leave this (new window) here.

Earpj: reillan:

And in the case of a dying child, a c-section is a wonderful thing... but your experience with the doctor asking you to try VBAC is *way* outside of the norm.

Weird. Well, I've been out of the babymaking biz for a while, guess things have really changed.
/Maybe a military hospital made a difference, but I would think they'd be stricter.

Actually, no. From what I've been told, most military hospitals are FAR more mother/baby-friendly than civilian ones. One reason is that they know you can't sue them, so they're less likely to practice "defensive medicine". Another reason is that frankly, many of the military docs are better-trained than civilian docs, especially when it comes to ongoing education (they often spend far more time on continuing education than civilian docs because their promotions & pay raises are at least partially based upon it). And finally, a lot of it boils down to who's doing the teaching. I know that the guy who runs obstetrics at Brooks Army Medical Center (where a LOT of the Army docs go for their residency) is a VERY big proponent of the "hands-off" approach to childbirth. One of the doulas I've spoken with in San Antonio described him as "a midwife with an M.D." So if you assume that somebody like him is probably doing a lot of the training, it stands to reason that these doctors are going to be much lower-intervention.

One other note re: military hospitals: MONEY! A c-section is expensive. All that equipment is expensive. Epidurals and anesthesiologists are expensive. And military hospitals don't just get to "bill you" for the costs. All the costs are covered by the military medical establishment directly. And military doctors ARE sometimes "counseled" if they develop a habit of costing their facility more money than is "necessary". So whereas a hospital will gladly give you that $200 epidural and then just charge you $500 for it, the military hospital will try to get you into a bathtub or walking around or changing positions (FREE!).

gambitsgirl: the article said she leaves behind her husband and two kids so I believe the baby was ok.



Is disappoint

lysdexic: Imma just leave this (new window) here.

Giving birth in a Koi tank??? Isn't that very unsanitary??

IXI Jim IXI: I'm glad my wife had our little one in the hospital...especially after they decided he wasn't making enough progress, and had to gut her like a fish.

I think I drank enough of the juice in the kitchen to make up for our hospital bill, too.

Same thing happened to me. C-sec after 22 hours of absolutely fruitless labor.

Yay for uterine atony following - nearly bled to death afterwards from an unseens hematoma. Two days in ICU and four days in the rest of the hospital's friendly confines before I was let go.

Would not have survived a natural birth, and my OB was *very* iffy about me ever having another kid again. I am inclined to agree with her. My pregnancy was great and uneventful, but my body was NOT ready for the actual birthing process.

Sybarite - the numbers are not correct. You are excluding pregnancy deaths over all including pre-term and later maternal deaths - and even deaths IN CHILDBIRTH are not consistently reported (might be listed as cardiac arrest, for example) They have just this year standardized maternal death reporting, with a tick-box for its relationship to pregnancy and childbirth.

BaelzThere is a higher rate of deaths for both mothers and infants through c-section then there is natural birth. The US Infant Mortality rate is right up there with 3rd world countries because hospitals are business and they make 10x the money gutting unsuspecting young woman then promoting safe natural birth.

WRONG!! This is the kind of dangerous lunacy the homebirth crowd spews all the time. Death during childbirth is called PERINATAL mortality, and we have the LOWEST of all industrialized countries due to state-of-the art obstetrics. Our neonatal mortality rate, defined as death of the infant within the first year of life to factors outside of childbirth, is also WAY LOWER than third world countries. Hospital birth has given us the lowest perinatal mortality rate in the world. Here's the facts from the World Health Organization: http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publications/2006/9241563206_eng.pdf. Don't let this change your mind, however. I'm sure WHO is actually in the grips of the nature-hating patriarchy.

Check out some of the other lies the homebith crowd spouts: http://skepticalob.blogspot.com/2012/01/natural-childbirth-advocates-p arroting.html

You are so breathtakingly wrong it would be funny if people weren't dying. A friend recently lost his cousin during a homebirth. The midwife attending was lighting candles and incense around the home when the paramedics arrived. His cousin was bleeding to death in the bathtub. But hey, at least she didn't get a c-section!!

morgantx: Earpj: topgun4291:
Then you transfer to a hospital.

Would've been too late for my oldest. She was dying and had to get out, like...5 minutes ago.

Ya know, now days one can tell the doctor to back the fark off unless needed.

No, you can't. There have been stories of women who wanted to refuse a c-section who had their babies taken away from them for "mental instability" (after those babies were delivered safely WITHOUT c-section), or of women who failed to show up at the hospital for their scheduled induction/c-section who had the COPS go to their homes to get them. There are MANY stories of women who have had doctors perform episiotomies AGAINST THEIR WILL. As a doula, I saw one doctor give a woman a completely unnecessary episiotomy while she was screaming, "NO! DON'T CUT ME!"

As someone whose entire profession is based on the rejection of modern medicine in the birthing process, you have a ton of scary anecdotes about how terrible modern medicine in the birthing process is?

Weird.

My wife had a textbook pregnancy the whole way. Not a single complication or issue of any kind. Until the very end. While in the early stages of labor, they lost my son's pulse, and had to get him out fast.

The smooth pregnancy would have made us perfect candidates for some hippy-dippy bathtub delivery at home. But when push came to shove, we didn't need incense and good vibes. We needed an MD in the room. I am grateful every single day that we had one.

/Actually more like 5-6 MDs from the OB and NICU teams.

DontMakeMeComeBackThere - as you noted specific circumstances are important to determine what happens in specific cases.

Until the complication(s) this woman suffered are analyzed and made public, you can suspect but not know that giving birth in a hospital would necessarily have made any difference in outcome.

Women do die in hospitals during birth - even women who went in to the hospital with normal health.

Access to emergency hysterectomy can save lives but doesn't always, as that doesn't always work to stem the bleeding. Sometimes it can't be stopped despite best efforts.

Home birth is too mainstream. I prefer basement birth, you probably haven't heard of it., 'cuz it's so underground.

One last rant on this:

A registered nurse midwife is NOT a hippy-dippy incense-lighting idiot-- they are a trained medical professional and often have a practice of their own just like a doctor would. A home birth with them is a safe alternative to a hospital birth.

There are other people who call themselves "midwives" but are not medical professionals. If you choose one of them for your only support during a home birth, you are asking for trouble.

The Homer Tax: As someone whose entire profession is based on the rejection of modern medicine in the birthing process, you have a ton of scary anecdotes about how terrible modern medicine in the birthing process is?

Weird.

Actually, doulas are MUCH more common in hospital settings than homebirths. Truth is that I've never had a homebirth doula client. And the role of a doula is simply to help support the mother. In a homebirth with a midwife, you have that midwife or her assistant by your side the whole time; you don't usually NEED a doula. In a hospital, your doctor shows up about 5 minutes before the baby's born and the nurse will only check on you once an hour when she comes in to stick her fingers up your vajayjay. You don't have anybody there to help you through labor because the nurses have so many other patients, so you hire a doula to be there JUST for you.

Probably the reason I have a lot of these stories is because of the area in which I live. I've talked to doulas in other parts of the country who have NEVER seen anything like it.

JoeCowboy: TravisBickle62: I don't see how any woman could squeeze a baby out her hoo ha without the benefit of morphine

Wife did. 3 times. She's scared to death of needles.

She figured women have been birthing babies naturally since the beginning of time without pain medication, she figured she could do it too.

JC

Lo, the naturalistic fallacy rears it's head!

I'm with Tosh, I'll only do home births when I have a puppy...

Pontious Pilates: My wife had a textbook pregnancy the whole way. Not a single complication or issue of any kind. Until the very end. While in the early stages of labor, they lost my son's pulse, and had to get him out fast.

The smooth pregnancy would have made us perfect candidates for some hippy-dippy bathtub delivery at home. But when push came to shove, we didn't need incense and good vibes. We needed an MD in the room. I am grateful every single day that we had one.

/Actually more like 5-6 MDs from the OB and NICU teams.

What you did there - it's crowning...

//Glad the little dude's OK

morgantx: Snip

You're a medical expert, honed by years of experience and specialized training? Or do you base medical decisions on your "gut" feeling about what's best for you?

In other words, what qualifies you to make any judgment about anything medical for anyone, including yourself?

Harry Freakstorm: poisoned potato



/ feels your pain and frustration

StrangeQ: You ever take a moment to ponder how it is that an act that is absolutely essential for the continuation of our species has come to be such a lethal event that it must be done in a "controlled setting" at a hospital while the rest of the animal kingdom seems to be getting by just fine?

Have you ever taken a moment to ponder how it is that the total human population has increased from one billion to seven billion people in under two hundred years?

blondski: Since fark has strong birthing opinions--- what is fark's view of the father being there in the delivery room?

I was in the delivery room for all four of my kid's births - I can say with certainty that I am completely against it...

Kirkenhegelstein: morgantx: Snip

You're a medical expert, honed by years of experience and specialized training? Or do you base medical decisions on your "gut" feeling about what's best for you?

In other words, what qualifies you to make any judgment about anything medical for anyone, including yourself?

Nope. But I can read the FDA's warning on Pitocin, and I can read the studies that were published by the drug's manufacturer. And I can read the hospital's policies, and I can read the ACOG journals and the studies that have been published. I don't base my medical decisions on my "gut" feeling; I base them on HARD DATA, much of which is readily available in respected medical journals.

I'm sorry, but when I can read the data on Pitocin (to use as an example) and the FDA and the drug manufacturer BOTH say that Pitocin can CAUSE a uterine rupture, when ACOG says that Pitocin can cause uterine rupture, when EVERY SINGLE STUDY THAT HAS EVER BEEN DONE says that Pitocin increases your risk of uterine rupture, I can feel pretty confident in believing that Pitocin can increase the risk of uterine rupture. When I ask my doctor about it and he says, "Pitocin doesn't increase the risk of uterine rupture at all," I can safely assume that he is working on the basis of a small sample size (his own practice) and therefore his data is not as reliable as the published data that is available on the issue. Therefore, I can safely conclude that my doctor is wrong.

Because you know what? If my doctor IS wrong and something dreadfully (possibly even fatally) wrong happens, he washes his hands and goes home. I may not. So it is in my best interests to become an informed consumer, especially when making life-and-death decisions for myself and my family.

/Which is why I also vaccinate
//And believe in regular medical and prenatal care
///And have many of the standard diagnostic tests done (Pap smears, ultrasounds, etc.)

The Larch: StrangeQ: You ever take a moment to ponder how it is that an act that is absolutely essential for the continuation of our species has come to be such a lethal event that it must be done in a "controlled setting" at a hospital while the rest of the animal kingdom seems to be getting by just fine?

Have you ever taken a moment to ponder how it is that the total human population has increased from one billion to seven billion people in under two hundred years?

People like to fark?

Pontious Pilates: My wife had a textbook pregnancy the whole way. Not a single complication or issue of any kind. Until the very end. While in the early stages of labor, they lost my son's pulse, and had to get him out fast.

Same here. 100% problem-free pregnancy,everything coming up Millhouse for 9 months...

Whoops, Nuchal cord that no one could have possibly know about detected only by internal fetal heartrate monitor "screwed" (it's not screwed) into baby's scalp. Even then, they didn't "force" anyone into ceasarian. You know what's fun? Hearing your sons heart farking STOP every time your wife has a contraction. We were there for 12 hours (retroactively found out that my wife had been in labor for 2 days, as they waited for him to come normally to no avail because his head was too damn big.

So, for all the crap they've been getting in this thread I wasn to personally thank: OB/GYN doctors, internal fetal heartrate monitors, and the operation known as the c-section, because the wonder and glory of all of those things is the reason why my son is alive today - he's the single greatest thing that's ever happened to me. My son is perfectly healthy and fine, his scalp is comepletely fine, and my wife and her stomach are completely fine.

And for those of you who think modern medicine is evil, dangerous, expensive, and full of people who don't actually care about you or your baby and just want to make a buck or whatever. All I can say is that I hope you don't have any of the completely unforseeable complications that we had. For both you and your child's sake.

Home births and natural birth centers are NOT about 'incense and good vibes'. Yes, it's about the parents being given more personal attention, and being informed and more involved in deciding exactly how they wish to deal with their birth... but midwives are supposed to be *medical professionals*. Do your homework, keep informed... if you have a complaint and your midwife says something like 'oh you're just giving out too much negative energy' ... find yourself another midwife. Fast. Doulas are there to advocate for you and help out during and/or after birth. They can do the mystical hippy mojo side of things if that's what you like... but they are NOT there for medical decisions. That's for you, your midwife, and whatever pediatrician you have after the baby's born. A doula is a kind of friend (sometimes actual friend, sometimes paid for friend), NOT a nurse or doctor or midwife. If your midwife seems to just want to take on the doula side of things... GET A DIFFERENT MIDWIFE and/or go to a doctor and hire her as a doula...

(for doulas out there... understand that I am NOT belittling your profession. You guys are freakin awesome)

Kirkenhegelstein: In other words, what qualifies you to make any judgment about anything medical for anyone, including yourself?

90% of everything is crap, including 90% of all doctors. If you blindly trust anyone with the words "MD" next to their name you are an idiot.

safeforwork: Home births and natural birth centers are NOT about 'incense and good vibes'. Yes, it's about the parents being given more personal attention, and being informed and more involved in deciding exactly how they wish to deal with their birth... but midwives are supposed to be *medical professionals*. Do your homework, keep informed... if you have a complaint and your midwife says something like 'oh you're just giving out too much negative energy' ... find yourself another midwife. Fast. Doulas are there to advocate for you and help out during and/or after birth. They can do the mystical hippy mojo side of things if that's what you like... but they are NOT there for medical decisions. That's for you, your midwife, and whatever pediatrician you have after the baby's born. A doula is a kind of friend (sometimes actual friend, sometimes paid for friend), NOT a nurse or doctor or midwife. If your midwife seems to just want to take on the doula side of things... GET A DIFFERENT MIDWIFE and/or go to a doctor and hire her as a doula...

(for doulas out there... understand that I am NOT belittling your profession. You guys are freakin awesome)

No offense taken! And I agree whole-heartedly!

Snicker.

/as someone whose wife is about to give birth at home, I am getting a kick...
//but definitely not sharing this with her.

Earpj: topgun4291:
Then you transfer to a hospital.

Would've been too late for my oldest. She was dying and had to get out, like...5 minutes ago.

Ya know, now days one can tell the doctor to back the fark off unless needed.

then they call cps on you & you get to leave the hospital empty handed..

We live in downtown Toronto. In Ontario, hospital births are no safer than home births.

Pops

/three kids all home births
//wife didn't even take aspirin
///we both hate hippies
\midwives cleaned the mess up.

And all this time I thought homes were hatched from eggs...


//TMYK

Orgasmatron138: I'll take this opportunity to say that I'm irritated with the use of the word 'tapped' to mean 'selected.' I'm not sure when that caught on popularly, but Jesus, it's not like people have a spigot sticking out of them that you turn on. You didn't tap them, you picked them out or selected them.

And here I thought it was "taped" as in tape one of Allison Morissette's songs and play it at the funeral. I'm a maybe dumb but what meanest thou with the Allison Morissette reference? Now where is my cassette player?

QuinnTheFetus: WorkingInParadise: "That's not ironic"
"Yes it is"
"no, it's not..."
blah blah blah

I came here for an argument!

How ironic.

The Larch: StrangeQ: You ever take a moment to ponder how it is that an act that is absolutely essential for the continuation of our species has come to be such a lethal event that it must be done in a "controlled setting" at a hospital while the rest of the animal kingdom seems to be getting by just fine?

Have you ever taken a moment to ponder how it is that the total human population has increased from one billion to seven billion people in under two hundred years?

Probably had something to do with improved sanitation and health care dramatically lowering the infant mortality rate. That and potatoes.

/seriously

Hey, I don't see what's wrong with having a midwife. We had one, for both of our kids.

Of course, the midwife was also an RN.
And we were at the hospital both times.
And the ob/gyn was there damn quick when her services were required. (no C-section)

Skip the hippy-dip bullsh*t that puts your life/wife & child at unnecessary risk. You've got nine months to figure out a hospital & doctor that suits you, and won't slice you open just for fun. Use the time wisely.

Wow, weird, stupid person does something stupid and dies.

Weird.

Bloody William: Home birthing: because fark centuries of medical advancement, I'm a farking hippy and I want to be in enormous pain while squirting out a baby into my bathtub.

Centuries of medical advancement? Really?

The modern woman going to a US hospital goes through pretty much the same scenario anymore especially if it is their first time.

Drug for pain
Drug for dilation which increases pain
More drugs for Pain
More drugs for dilation
More drugs for pain

Sorry, we cannot give you any drugs. Now we have to do an emergency C-section.

They basically setup new mothers for a C-section. And once they do a C-section they "medically" indicate they are no longer able to have a natural childbirth. If by modern medical improvements you mean reaping as much cash as possible from women in enormous pain due to childbirth, then yes, we have made HUGE improvements.

/Also, the US has one of the highest infant mortality rates in the western world.

kiwimoogle84: Hey I don't know who these women are that make all us good ones look bad, but I took my husband to a strip club on our honeymoon and told him to pick a girl. Then I went on a diet after we got home to shed the ten lbs that eating badly on the honeymoon packed on.

Wait... you ate the stripper?

Sybarite: I don't get why people who have good professional healthcare available would choose a method that triples the chance newborn mortality.

I think it's engrained in us that we need a certain number of problems to be content.

That's why you don't see this shiat in third world countries where they have real things to deal with: hunger, marauding rebels, rape, tigers, rape, malaria, rape and so on. (I mean they probably do natural house births but not by choice and would immediately take the alternative if they could).

Only in pampered first world nations do people fret over their food like this (organic free range or I'll just die!) reject vaccinations and other basic medical advancements and lose their minds over kids playing outdoors (just to name a few).

The fact of the matter is, there are billions of women who have done it the natural way and been okay. So long as a hospital is near (in case of emergencies) I don't have a problem really with natural birth.

I would NEVER in a million years do it personally, but to each their own.

santadog: Here's a bit of info for you Anti-Home Birth folks:

People die in Hospitals EVERY DAY!

Women giving birth..
Children being born..
And other people... dying.. in hospitals.. ALL THE DAMN TIME!

So, maybe you can wrap your head around that fact, and think over a 15 year span that one woman dying during home birth may be sad, but it's not that outrageous.
Yes, her odds may have been better in a hospital, but she could have died there too.. and the story would have read a bit different. Actually, there wouldn't have been a story at all, because people die in hospitals all the time.

Actually, if she wasn't promoting home births it wouldn't of made news. It's like Atkins dying of a heart attack or one of those bee sting people being stung to death. It's not that she died because she took unnecessary risks, it's that she died taking an unnecessary risk that she advised others to part take in.

Earpj: fecal fornications:

Or you don't listen to the doctor, kid dies and you go home empty handed anyway.
Who gets into trouble then?
Or the kid survives, but has issues related to birth. The doctor gets sued.
I blame sue happy parents.

/I'm more likely to listen to the person who went to school.
//Yes, I know. The guy who got a "c" is still called "Doctor".

Coctor. To which overbearing asian father says, "Why you no Aoctor?"

On Balance: kiwimoogle84: Hey I don't know who these women are that make all us good ones look bad, but I took my husband to a strip club on our honeymoon and told him to pick a girl. Then I went on a diet after we got home to shed the ten lbs that eating badly on the honeymoon packed on.

Wait... you ate the stripper?

The hardest is when you get the G-string stuck in your teeth.

nosferatublue: CatPeople: Not too long ago, historically, people used to shiat and piss into a pot or pan and throw it out the window. Then we stopped, and now point and laugh at the piss-pot advocates with the nasty lawns.

And not too long ago, mothers use to feed babies from their own boobies. Then in the 1970s, they stopped, and people pointed and laughed at breastfeeding moms while they fed their babies formula.

Now they realize they were dumbasses. Not every modern decision is right.

stevetherobot: One of my wife's friends died giving birth in a hospital, therefore hospital births are bad and should be banned.

nicely done

blondski: Never have popped a baby out but I imagine when it does happen I'm going to be scared to death and will want a doctor by my side.

Want some help getting there? To the preggos part that is.

Rindred: My wife tried to deliver at home, but things weren't going well by hour 19. At that point, our midwife said "now is the time to go to the hospital to reduce the chances of infection and other potential harm to the baby." Thus, we headed off to a hospital and she got her epidural and naturally delivered 11.5 hours later.

Only an incompetent midwife would try to a) do a home delivery if you have prenatal detected risks and/or b) keep you there too long if there's trouble.

I'm certainly not an expert but if things suddenly take a turn for the worse, would you rather be a car or ambulance ride plus many minutes away from the hospital, or would you rather already be at the hospital?

Personally I just don't see the logic. But I'm a man and plan to never father a child, so my opinion counts for squat.

liam76: reillan: Lollipop165: The fact of the matter is, there are billions of women who have done it the natural way and been okay. So long as a hospital is near (in case of emergencies) I don't have a problem really with natural birth.

Unless you have a lot of equipment at home you aren't going to know if there is an emergency until it is too late. And if your water has broke they don;t want you walking around so I don;t know how good of an idea it is to be climbing in and out of an ambulance.

The reason doctors don't want you walking after your water has broken is insurance reasons. So long as you are at term, there's nothing wrong unsafe about it (risks of infection do not have anything to do with walking). In fact, in other parts of the world, most women "squat" when giving birth. It's a more natural position for child birth.

Jument: Rindred: My wife tried to deliver at home, but things weren't going well by hour 19. At that point, our midwife said "now is the time to go to the hospital to reduce the chances of infection and other potential harm to the baby." Thus, we headed off to a hospital and she got her epidural and naturally delivered 11.5 hours later.

Only an incompetent midwife would try to a) do a home delivery if you have prenatal detected risks and/or b) keep you there too long if there's trouble.

I'm certainly not an expert but if things suddenly take a turn for the worse, would you rather be a car or ambulance ride plus many minutes away from the hospital, or would you rather already be at the hospital?

Personally I just don't see the logic. But I'm a man and plan to never father a child, so my opinion counts for squat.

I totally agree with you, but there is something some women find unsettling about making such a natural procedure very medicalized. I understand their decisions, although I wouldn't do it.

blondski: Bloody William: Home birthing: because fark centuries of medical advancement, I'm a farking hippy and I want to be in enormous pain while squirting out a baby into my bathtub.

Who cleans the bathtub after that?

The woman.

meanmutton: Honestly, the disgustingly selfish home birthing industry pisses me off even more than the idiots who don't vaccinate their children. At least we have herd immunity to protect the children from their asshat parents. Home birthing, though? You're putting your child's life at risk, you farking self-righteous, narcissistic douchebag asshole for what your own "experience"?

Yes, it's all about being narcissistic. That's why my wife and I had our both of our kids at home. Narcissism. You nailed it buddy. It had nothing to do with the fact that we didn't want our children to be exposed to diseases like MRSA that run rampant in hospitals. Nor did it have to do with us not wanting our children to be exposed to the myriad of drugs they give in the hospitals. Nor did it have to do with the fact that newborns are taken away from their mothers immediately and not returned for hours, even days in some cases. Nor did it have to do with the fact that most hospitals are way to quick to give a c-section. Nope it was all about the narcissism. And man, we looked awesome doing that home birth.

A planned home birth is every bit as safe as a hospital birth, please educate yourself so you don't sound like such a jackass in the future. Or don't.

homebirth with a non-nurse midwife has a neonatal mortality rate 7.7 times higher than comparable risk hospital birth! (new window)

Or you could try this:

"It's a pretty damning collection of evidence. In every state, province and country where the issue of homebirth safety was examined, homebirth increased the risk of newborn death and serious injury (new window).

There is, of course, one set of statistics that is missing. That would be the safety data compiled by MANA (Midwives Alliance of North America) on the 24,000 homebirths in its database. MANA explicitly refuses to release the death rates to the American public. The executives of MANA know that homebirth increases the risk of neonatal death; they just don't want American women to find out."

Sybarite: DEM assisted homebirth has TRIPLE the neonatal mortality rate.

Dude, you're slacking. The 2009 data shows a x7 mortality rate; not a x3.

Jument: Rindred: My wife tried to deliver at home, but things weren't going well by hour 19. At that point, our midwife said "now is the time to go to the hospital to reduce the chances of infection and other potential harm to the baby." Thus, we headed off to a hospital and she got her epidural and naturally delivered 11.5 hours later.

Only an incompetent midwife would try to a) do a home delivery if you have prenatal detected risks and/or b) keep you there too long if there's trouble.

I'm certainly not an expert but if things suddenly take a turn for the worse, would you rather be a car or ambulance ride plus many minutes away from the hospital, or would you rather already be at the hospital?

Personally I just don't see the logic. But I'm a man and plan to never father a child, so my opinion counts for squat.

The doctor isn't in the hospital when you're in labor anyway.

I personally wouldn't feel comfortable doing a homebirth if I lived 30 miles from the nearest hospital. But if I can get to the hospital within 10 minutes? The doctor takes longer than that to leave the golf course.

If you're in the hospital when there's a complication, they still have to call your doctor and wait for him to get there. I could see the whole, "Faster service in a hospital" argument if the doctors were actually THERE while women were in labor, but they usually aren't.

Lettuce Pray: Yes, it's all about being narcissistic. That's why my wife and I had our both of our kids at home. Narcissism. You nailed it buddy. It had nothing to do with the fact that we didn't want our children to be exposed to diseases like MRSA that run rampant in hospitals. Nor did it have to do with us not wanting our children to be exposed to the myriad of drugs they give in the hospitals. Nor did it have to do with the fact that newborns are taken away from their mothers immediately and not returned for hours, even days in some cases. Nor did it have to do with the fact that most hospitals are way to quick to give a c-section. Nope it was all about the narcissism. And man, we looked awesome doing that home birth.

Do you force your kids to wear tinfoil hats?

liam76: if your water has broke they don;t want you walking around so I don;t know how good of an idea it is to be climbing in and out of an ambulance.

Wow, you really don't know what you're talking about, do you?

Lettuce Pray:

A planned home birth is every bit as safe as a hospital birth, please educate yourself so you don't sound like such a jackass in the future. Or don't.

This is why I don't wear seatbelts - I simply plan ahead of time on not having any accidents.

tjsands1118: santadog: Here's a bit of info for you Anti-Home Birth folks:

People die in Hospitals EVERY DAY!

Women giving birth..
Children being born..
And other people... dying.. in hospitals.. ALL THE DAMN TIME!

So, maybe you can wrap your head around that fact, and think over a 15 year span that one woman dying during home birth may be sad, but it's not that outrageous.
Yes, her odds may have been better in a hospital, but she could have died there too.. and the story would have read a bit different. Actually, there wouldn't have been a story at all, because people die in hospitals all the time.

Actually, if she wasn't promoting home births it wouldn't of made news. It's like Atkins dying of a heart attack or one of those bee sting people being stung to death. It's not that she died because she took unnecessary risks, it's that she died taking an unnecessary risk that she advised others to part take in.

Or, like Jim Fixx, author of The Complete Book of Running, dying of a heart attack while running.

Nothing turns farkers into authoritarian, "I know better than you" asshats than medicine.

Having just witnessed the birth of my first child, she might have wanted it so as to not be bullied into a c-section at hospital, which seemed amazingly frequent at that hospital, and given the tenor of every doctor I spoke with over the course of 9 months, something that's common in most every hospital. And, you know, some women don't want themselves and their newborns doped up upon entering the world.

Lollipop165: liam76: reillan: Lollipop165: The fact of the matter is, there are billions of women who have done it the natural way and been okay. So long as a hospital is near (in case of emergencies) I don't have a problem really with natural birth.

Unless you have a lot of equipment at home you aren't going to know if there is an emergency until it is too late. And if your water has broke they don;t want you walking around so I don;t know how good of an idea it is to be climbing in and out of an ambulance.

The reason doctors don't want you walking after your water has broken is insurance reasons. So long as you are at term, there's nothing wrong unsafe about it (risks of infection do not have anything to do with walking). In fact, in other parts of the world, most women "squat" when giving birth. It's a more natural position for child birth.

Squatting isn't walking around.

If there is no risk, what is the insurance reason?

liam76: Lollipop165: liam76: reillan: Lollipop165: The fact of the matter is, there are billions of women who have done it the natural way and been okay. So long as a hospital is near (in case of emergencies) I don't have a problem really with natural birth.

Unless you have a lot of equipment at home you aren't going to know if there is an emergency until it is too late. And if your water has broke they don;t want you walking around so I don;t know how good of an idea it is to be climbing in and out of an ambulance.

The reason doctors don't want you walking after your water has broken is insurance reasons. So long as you are at term, there's nothing wrong unsafe about it (risks of infection do not have anything to do with walking). In fact, in other parts of the world, most women "squat" when giving birth. It's a more natural position for child birth.

Squatting isn't walking around.

If there is no risk, what is the insurance reason?

meant to link to prolapsed cord there.

tjsands1118:

If you can't afford the bills for giving birth, then you probably can't afford to raise a child. Why is this such a hard thing for people to understand.

But yeah there are, for the poorer people who feel like passing on the joys of poverty for another generation, government assistance programs, if they still feel like having the benefits of medical professional.

True, there are assistance programs to help, but the problem remains...why does giving birth in a hospital cost so much in the first place? $10k is the minimum average hospital bill, for births where there were no complications, no caesarian or surgery, AND you took your baby home the same day.

For that kind of cost, you could feed, clothe, and shelter your child for more than a year, with money to spare.

You say they shouldn't have a child if they can't afford the hospital, I say it shouldn't cost a family their life savings just to give birth.

Loreweaver: tjsands1118:

If you can't afford the bills for giving birth, then you probably can't afford to raise a child. Why is this such a hard thing for people to understand.

But yeah there are, for the poorer people who feel like passing on the joys of poverty for another generation, government assistance programs, if they still feel like having the benefits of medical professional.

True, there are assistance programs to help, but the problem remains...why does giving birth in a hospital cost so much in the first place? $10k is the minimum average hospital bill, for births where there were no complications, no caesarian or surgery, AND you took your baby home the same day.

For that kind of cost, you could feed, clothe, and shelter your child for more than a year, with money to spare.

You say they shouldn't have a child if they can't afford the hospital, I say it shouldn't cost a family their life savings just to give birth.

That's a north american issue. All the other first world countries, who have nationalized medical care, don't have that problem. Our for-profit hospitals increase the bill to make money, and the insurance companies increase the bill to make money. I've read accounts of up to a 300% increase in the costs, but I can't seem to find that citation right now.

twernt: We live in downtown Toronto. In Ontario, hospital births are no safer than home births.

Pops

/three kids all home births
//wife didn't even take aspirin
///we both hate hippies
\midwives cleaned the mess up.

No.

No

No

mgshamster: Loreweaver: That's a north american issue. All the other first world countries, who have nationalized medical care, don't have that problem. Our for-profit hospitals increase the bill to make money, and the insurance companies increase the bill to make money. I've read accounts of up to a 300% increase in the costs, but I can't seem to find that citation right now.

I found one:

As with many hospitals, mark-ups at Northside Hospital and its affiliates are excessive, ranging from increases of 300 times over cost, to more than 100,000 times over cost. (pdf, new window) It's on page 14.

Deciding how to give birth is an incredibly personal decision and it is possible to choose wrong.

The woman in the article chose home birth for her second child, chose wrong and died.

One of my sister's friend chose hospital birth for her second child, chose wrong, contracted an unstoppable infection, and died.

There are ways to do home birth or birth center birth well - get a CNA/RN who has good references and a clear plan for getting you help if needed. But it's no guarantee.

There area ways to do hospital birth well too - I did this. Researched hospitals, had a birth plan, talked things over with my doctor ahead of time, asked for a natural-birth-friendly nurse when we checked in and turned down the epidural. Everything went smoothly. But it wasn't guaranteed.

Birth is personal, highly variable and not an exact science. It's impossible to know with 100% certainty the right answer. You know who told me that? My doctor. And on that, I totally trust his judgment.

liam76: twernt: We live in downtown Toronto. In Ontario, hospital births are no safer than home births.

Pops

/three kids all home births
//wife didn't even take aspirin
///we both hate hippies
\midwives cleaned the mess up.

No.

Yes.

"ABSTRACT:

The purpose of this study was to compare maternal and perinatal/neonatal mortality and morbidity and intrapartum intervention rates for women attended by Ontario midwives who planned a home birth compared with similar low-risk women who planned a hospital birth between 2003 and 2006.Methods: The database provided outcomes for all women planning a home birth at the onset of labor (n = 6,692) and for a cohort, stratified by parity, of similar low-risk women planning a hospital birth.

Results: The rate of perinatal and neonatal mortality was very low (1/1,000) for both groups, and no difference was shown between groups in perinatal and neonatal mortality or serious morbidity (2.4% vs 2.8%; relative risk [RR], 95% confidence intervals [CI]: 0.84 [0.68-1.03]). No maternal deaths were reported. All measures of serious maternal morbidity were lower in the planned home birth group as were rates for all interventions including cesarean section (5.2% vs 8.1%; RR [95% CI]: 0.64 [0.56, 0.73]).

Conclusions: Midwives who were integrated into the health care system with good access to emergency services, consultation, and transfer of care provided care resulting in favorable outcomes for women planning both home or hospital births."

Shakespeare's Monkey: [l.yimg.com image 310x368]

Aww, that's sad. TFA doesn't say directly, but I hope the baby is okay.

/She looks hot in that pic; wonder if she has a sister

***clicks profile****

That ironic, you look cold in your pic...(good though!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_ra t e (new window)

Huh. After Cuba, eh? Well, clearly inducing labor to fit the doctor's tee-time, then defaulting to a c-section when the combination of early induced labor and the epidural cause problems is working well for us.

twernt: liam76: twernt: We live in downtown Toronto. In Ontario, hospital births are no safer than home births.

Pops

/three kids all home births
//wife didn't even take aspirin
///we both hate hippies
\midwives cleaned the mess up.

No.

Yes.

"ABSTRACT:

The purpose of this study was to compare maternal and perinatal/neonatal mortality and morbidity and intrapartum intervention rates for women attended by Ontario midwives who planned a home birth compared with similar low-risk women who planned a hospital birth between 2003 and 2006.Methods: The database provided outcomes for all women planning a home birth at the onset of labor (n = 6,692) and for a cohort, stratified by parity, of similar low-risk women planning a hospital birth.

Results: The rate of perinatal and neonatal mortality was very low (1/1,000) for both groups, and no difference was shown between groups in perinatal and neonatal mortality or serious morbidity (2.4% vs 2.8%; relative risk [RR], 95% confidence intervals [CI]: 0.84 [0.68-1.03]). No maternal deaths were reported. All measures of serious maternal morbidity were lower in the planned home birth group as were rates for all interventions including cesarean section (5.2% vs 8.1%; RR [95% CI]: 0.64 [0.56, 0.73]).

Conclusions: Midwives who were integrated into the health care system with good access to emergency services, consultation, and transfer of care provided care resulting in favorable outcomes for women planning both home or hospital births."

On July 1, 2010, The Skeptical OB agreed:

In other words, homebirth is safe in The Netherlands and Canada, but no where else. (new window)

twernt: liam76: twernt: We live in downtown Toronto. In Ontario, hospital births are no safer than home births.

Pops

/three kids all home births
//wife didn't even take aspirin
///we both hate hippies
\midwives cleaned the mess up.

No.

Yes.

"ABSTRACT:

The purpose of this study was to compare maternal and perinatal/neonatal mortality and morbidity and intrapartum intervention rates for women attended by Ontario midwives who planned a home birth compared with similar low-risk women who planned a hospital birth between 2003 and 2006.Methods: The database provided outcomes for all women planning a home birth at the onset of labor (n = 6,692) and for a cohort, stratified by parity, of similar low-risk women planning a hospital birth.

Results: The rate of perinatal and neonatal mortality was very low (1/1,000) for both groups, and no difference was shown between groups in perinatal and neonatal mortality or serious morbidity (2.4% vs 2.8%; relative risk [RR], 95% confidence intervals [CI]: 0.84 [0.68-1.03]). No maternal deaths were reported. All measures of serious maternal morbidity were lower in the planned home birth group as were rates for all interventions including cesarean section (5.2% vs 8.1%; RR [95% CI]: 0.64 [0.56, 0.73]).

Conclusions: Midwives who were integrated into the health care system with good access to emergency services, consultation, and transfer of care provided care resulting in favorable outcomes for women planning both home or hospital births."

There are many studies out there (as linked above) that show homebirth with a midwife is more dangerous. The Midwives Alliance of North America refuses to release data on the number of deaths. But you want to cling to this one study as proving it is safe. Good luck with that.