My former boss made a blog post about his attempt to join Apple's elite crew. I worked for him when he opened his own startup company. Here it is, in straight copy/paste form:


Maybe you wanted to be a ballerina or an astronaut or a racecar driver when you grew up. Maybe you were a little kid eating your Apple Jacks and watching Bon Jovi on MTV and all you wanted to do was grow your hair long and rock out with your... well, you wanted to rock hard.


Maybe you wanted to be a doctor or a lawyer or a zoo keeper. I wanted to work for Apple.
Then they offered me a job. And I said no.
A few years ago, I moved to San Francisco with a dream. Go big or go home. Long shot or not, I was willing to work hard and wait for my big shot. Then it happened. Apple called me to interview for an iAds position, and it had all the makings of the most amazing job of my life. It was a brand new division, I'd work directly with agencies doing bleeding edge html and css work, and I'd be with a really small team of fresh, excited new executives. What could possibly go wrong? (Cue: doom music... duh duh duuuuuuuuuuuuuh).
In tidy list form, here are the reasons I turned Apple down.
1) Let's start with the basics. Right now, I'm writing a blog post about Apple. If I worked for Apple and I tried to do this, there would probably be little red dots all over me coming from the snipers planted outside my apartment. The first rule of Apple is, you do not talk about Apple.


But the truth is, I really love blogging. I like posting code samples, bouncing work off of peers, and offering advice. I was a little wary of working at a company where you can probably be arrested for thought crimes.
2) Apple is like the KGB. They thrive off secrets. Sometimes your own direct manager is not allowed to know what you're working on. This means that your manager cannot protect you from any juiced-up over-zealous executives who want to squeeze you for all you're worth.
3) This is where they really lost me. Let me start by saying, I am Captain Interview. I will interview your face off with both hands tied behind my back. Nonetheless, this is Apple we're talking about, and I was quaking in my little booties. After interviewing with six people over three days and having gotten the secret head nod that the job was in the bag, a complete reorganization of the iAds team happened, and suddenly, none of those interviewers was even on it anymore.
This meant seven more interviews, and the hiring manager wouldn't even be present, meaning that these were basically screening interviews, and if I got through, she'd interview me later. If you're keeping score at home, that's a total of fourteen interviews. Fourteen. Interviews.


During my second set of interviews, they called the space where they all worked a "Dungeon." It wasn't quite Silence of the Lambs, but it wasn't the sleek and sexy chrome palace you'd expect from Apple. Just some dark-ish building down the street from the main campus in an office park. Two of the people didn't even show up for the interviews, which were scheduled weeks in advance, because they couldn't leave their desks for a measly thirty minutes.
The final interviewer was twenty-five minutes late, meaning that what should have been a thirty minute tech interview stretched into two hours. This became an eternity in which the interviewers made a game of trying to stump me. They were stoked when I got most of it right, but didn't hesitate to giggle and shoot sideways glances when I was admittedly stumped.


One guy also seemed to think it was okay to sit on his iPhone the entire time playing some obviously tilt-enabled racecar game. What I guess nobody realized was that in all this time, I was really interviewing them, too, and all those stars in my eyes and that drool on my chin were utterly zapped. These people were overworked, frazzled, and elitist.
Long before the interview was over, I knew I wouldn't take the job even if they offered. It feels strange even to type it now, but I did not want to work for Apple.
With the perfect clarity of hindsight, I see that my dream was really to be super successful, and I had just associated Apple with that success. But whether you work for Apple or a startup in your basement, you still have to get out of bed every day, brush your teeth (hopefully), and go to your job. And if you get to like it, you're better off than I would have been.

I worked in their retail stores on the lowest end of the totem pole and all this was evident even working at that level. They would poll us constantly on how we felt about the job and ask things like "would you recommend working here to a friend or family member" and aaaallwaayyys the clear answer was "no." Mostly because I don't think most of my friends or family would be as willing to put up with the crazy hours, secrecy, and poor management. It paid very well (for retail) though, and I learned a lot.

I also had three interviews for a pretty basic position. Can't imagine what they have to go through for their "real" jobs. I did enjoy working on their overnight teams setting up for big product launches. In some ways the secrecy can be exciting.

It definitely takes a certain personality to work there. But some of their policies are not in the worker's best interest. Which isn't very surprising, they're a corporation like any other.

Who knew that Apple would predict how it'd be in its own commercial.

/Worked with Apple equipment
//Can't find a reason to buy it.
///Especially when it's designed to not be maintained
////Or to use standard parts in non-standard ways.

Bigsigh: It definitely takes a certain personality to work there. But some of their policies are not in the worker's best interest. Which isn't very surprising, they're a corporation like any other.

When business was able to tap the world instead of having to go to developed countries, it abandoned any thoughts of balance. Not only did they get a pliant workforce, they had a government that would prevent it from developing into a business-hostile one and some leverage over developed countries.

slepygryhnd: I went to a large event in Cupertino with several thousand Apple employees and their families (including 2 of my family members) and everyone seemed happy and pleasant and friendly. Who knows.

Just like a Mormon church eh?

Red Shirt Blues: Yes........5 threads down on the Geek tab is another anti-apple story. Something is afoot.

Same thread, different tabs - check the link.

slepygryhnd: I went to a large event in Cupertino with several thousand Apple employees and their families (including 2 of my family members) and everyone seemed happy and pleasant and friendly. Who knows.

Did the trains all run on time?

Apple is weird and cult-like?

I'm shocked.

This makes a lot of sense. Xcode is a horrifically buggy piece of software. The actual programmers working on it are probably embarassed by it's state. It's one of those rare products that actually gets noticeably buggier with each release. If they actually pointed out the flaws inherent in their development schedule (constantly re-design shiat and add new features with barely a thought toward debugging) they might get fired.

Well!

Glad he's dead.

Moving on!

A good buddy of mine works at Apple, in a reasonably "in the know" capacity. He's a really easygoing guy and not one to scare easily, but he always seems legitimately terrified about accidentally leaking any Apple info, so this article certainly seems to jive with what I've seen firsthand.

ShawnDoc: The reality distortion field is finally starting to wear off.

i have been looking into technology firms for work these days, and the apple jobs tend to have the most ridiculous responsibilities.

an example was a financial controller position in a european office. not only would this job be the lead for accounting and consolidating work for this particular country, it would also require FP&A (usually a seperate job), Sarbanes Oxley compliance (again a seperate job), and the lead credit analyst for the country (once again, usually a seperate role).

this was not a senior role either!

If you look at the list of tech companies where people are happy working, the places to have "the best jobs" Apple never comes up. Google comes up. Facebook comes up. Even Microsoft comes up. Apple doesn't.

Which is odd because Apple comes up as a place that people *want* to work (just like Google does) - it's just that very few people who work there rave about how awesome it is.

Hell - even Woz said it was toxic.

Is it worse than the Gil Amelio days?

No? Then let's forget I mentioned him.

cman: dumbobruni: i have been looking into technology firms for work these days, and the apple jobs tend to have the most ridiculous responsibilities.

an example was a financial controller position in a european office. not only would this job be the lead for accounting and consolidating work for this particular country, it would also require FP&A (usually a seperate job), Sarbanes Oxley compliance (again a seperate job), and the lead credit analyst for the country (once again, usually a seperate role).

this was not a senior role either!

Supply and demand, my son.

There are few jobs and many people looking for work. Employers can be very picky about who they hire.

Pretty obviously they are nuts looking for other nuts.

cman: bingethinker: Having failed to beat Apple in the marketplace, their competitors start a new phase of the anti-Apple propaganda campaign.

Shame on whoever greenlit this.

Yeah, gonna have to disagree with ya.

Significant majority of greenies about Apple are pro-Apple.

/Apple user
/iMac, iPhone, and iPad
///Libertarian who hates having my shiat made by exploited people

>libertarian
>uncomfortable with explotation

ohboyherewego.jpeg

bingethinker: Having failed to beat Apple in the marketplace, their competitors start a new phase of the anti-Apple propaganda campaign.

Shame on whoever greenlit this.

You mean... you mean a Fark mod greenlit a thread that would generate interest, controversy, discussion, and ad revenue??

Say it ain't so! This is... unprecedented!

Steve Jobs was a narcissistic, batshiat crazy first class greedy asshole who built an empire on foreign slavery. He isn't worthy enough to even stand in the shadow of Bill Gates.

/written on my macbook pro

slepygryhnd: I went to a large event in Cupertino with several thousand Apple employees and their families (including 2 of my family members) and everyone seemed happy and pleasant and friendly. Who knows.

It's hard to be unhappy when you and your colleagues go home at night to sleep on $1,000 bills.

/It's stressful, sure
//Most jobs making 6-7 figures are

I have a friend who worked at Apple for about seven years, as both a hardware and software engineer. He did indeed find out what products his company was launching on Tuesdays just like the rest of you.

cman: Supply and demand, my son.

There are few jobs and many people looking for work. Employers can be very picky about who they hire.

An iron-clad dose of regulation can fix that.

I said it in the last thread and I'm saying it in this one. You can take my ipod nano from my cold, dead hands. If it takes a little mental torture to produce them, I'm all for it.

I can't stand Apple products, so restrictive and annoying to use. I guess it's good for those who don't really know much about technology and don't really care and I get that. iPod is the only Apple product I ever actually like but it still was way too hard to deal with when trying to do anything beyond playing music, such as transferring songs from an old iPod to a new one. I know how to do it but you have to go through so many hoops. I've also had an iPhone and used Mac computers and I have the same kind of issues. I hope Google takes them out.

Sound like the 1984 commercial was very descriptive.

I've never owned an Apple product. I admit I am glad I never have.

digistil: It's hard to be unhappy when you and your colleagues go home at night to sleep on $1,000 bills.

/It's stressful, sure
//Most jobs making 6-7 figures are


You'd be surprised. A 6-7 figure income doesn't make up for the loss to your quality of life that a bad job creates.

Honest Bender: digistil: It's hard to be unhappy when you and your colleagues go home at night to sleep on $1,000 bills.

/It's stressful, sure
//Most jobs making 6-7 figures are


You'd be surprised. A 6-7 figure income doesn't make up for the loss to your quality of life that a bad job creates.

I think you missed my point. The article implies Apple employees have a horrible life because they sometimes have stress at work, failing to realize most jobs making 6-7 figures fit this.

digistil: slepygryhnd: I went to a large event in Cupertino with several thousand Apple employees and their families (including 2 of my family members) and everyone seemed happy and pleasant and friendly. Who knows.

It's hard to be unhappy when you and your colleagues go home at night to sleep on $1,000 bills.

/It's stressful, sure
//Most jobs making 6-7 figures are

Actually, you are mostly incorrect. I am a software developer and a Apple fan, but I wouldn't work there. I came across a salary survey from a few years ago, and the average pay at Apple was slightly less than the average pay from companies here in the Twin Cities. There is no way that the Twin Cities has a higher cost of living than Silicon Valley.

Apple is just one of those places where many people would damn near work for free. If nothing else, it would look great on a resume. It would tend to turn away anyone with a family or other responsibilities, though.

Perhaps for good reason; the illusion of a free-spirited workforce sitting around on bean bags playing on the latest gizmos before they have their free lunch would be shattered.

Deep, maybe if you think Apple is Spelled 'google'.

sethstorm: cman: Supply and demand, my son.

There are few jobs and many people looking for work. Employers can be very picky about who they hire.

An iron-clad dose of regulation can fix that.

The sorts of tariffs China places on foreign goods coming into their country can fix it too.

I have a friend who took a job at Apple and moved all the way across the country. Not only did they not tell him what he was doing, but he didn't have any work to do. He was also lied to at the interview about how much work he was expected to put in, among other things. I tried to warn him, and within a week he was wishing he had listened. Within two weeks he was already looking for a new job out there.

I think he may have also sworn off using apple products.

My own companies CEO looks up to Jobbs and Apple. Lately he stated he was launching Project Apple. Guess what that plan intends to do to most of us... send our jobs to India.

Yeah Apple is such a "positive force" leader.

Keep the spot light on these ass clowns.

Olympus Mons: My own companies CEO looks up to Jobbs and Apple. Lately he stated he was launching Project Apple. Guess what that plan intends to do to most of us... send our jobs to India.

Yeah Apple is such a "positive force" leader.

Keep the spot light on these ass clowns.

Oh yeah? My company has started "Project Microsoft". The plan is to go around KILLING BABIES!!!!

Screw Microsoft!

/Seriously, depending on what your job is, you boss may be crazy. Many companies has discovered that the work that comes back from India is complete crap.

You know, in reading about the history of personal computers, it seems that companies involved in the PC industry (software and hardware sides) that are run in a similar manner end up with all sorts of morale issues, and eventually collapse.

With the death of Steve Jobs, I wouldn't be surprised if that happens in 10 years. I could see them going on longer, but that would be the surprising part to me.

FTA:Cultish overtones or not, the Apple juggernaut shows no sign of stalling. This week Apple was valued at $415 billion - putting it neck and neck with Exxon Mobil as the world's most valuable company.

Good luck figuring out what the hell to do with that money, given that you've trained your work force not to every think big or for themselves. If any of you have ever wondered why ex-Apple employees never seem to branch off and form their own companies, this article seems to answer that question pretty succinctly.

FishyFred: "It's not a particularly happy place but it breeds people who can thrive in that environment. It's a pressure cooker and some people like that."

Makes sense. I think Jobs said in interviews that he prefers difficult personalities who produce great work over easygoing people who produce good work.

Of course, that certainly describes him.

It sounded more like in reality he preferred non-persons who did what he told them to do, how and when he thought they should.