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(LA Times) PSA 100 Occupy protesters learn that an illegal demonstration is when you stick around after the police tell you to move your legal demonstration. Oh, and when you tear down a fence to take over an empty building   (latimes.com) divider line 224
More: PSA, grenades, demonstrations, protests  
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1654 clicks; posted to Politics » on 29 Jan 2012 at 8:51 AM   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»   |    Get this fabulous T-Shirt and impress the methane out of your friends! shirt it!



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2012-01-29 09:02:04 AM
On CNN yesterday, a reporter was covering this--and said "They insisted they were not using smoke against the occupiers"

Meanwhile, the video feed showed cops launching smoke grenades into the crowd.
 
2012-01-29 09:04:33 AM
One person defecated on a cop car.
All orders by the police are lawful orders.
Disobeying police means you deserve to be beaten severely.
No one knows what occupiers want.
Drum circles.
Smelly hippies.
Get a job.
Entitled.

Have I missed any derping points?
 
2012-01-29 09:06:18 AM
erveek: One person defecated on a cop car.
All orders by the police are lawful orders.
Disobeying police means you deserve to be beaten severely.
No one knows what occupiers want.
Drum circles.
Smelly hippies.
Get a job.
Entitled.

Have I missed any derping points?


Class warfare
 
2012-01-29 09:06:45 AM
Calling on the "hacktavist" group Anonymous...

And see, there's your problem. One does not call on Anonymous for anything, because they will do the exact opposite. Why? Because its funnier that way, namely. The second you start asking for their help, they start in with their "not your personal army" mantra and will, at best, ignore you. Worst case, the Leviathan turns against you and attempts to make your life hell.

If Anon picks up your side of a cause, I guess bully for you, but don't try to call down their thunder lest you find your house signed up for various white supremacy groups and leather-bar bear magazines.
 
2012-01-29 09:10:11 AM
"[The city] will not be bullied by threats of violence or illegal activity." On the other hand, do what we say or we'll bust your heads and throw you in jail. Legally.

"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

-- Anatole France
 
2012-01-29 09:12:28 AM
Shadowknight: Calling on the "hacktavist" group Anonymous...

And see, there's your problem. One does not call on Anonymous for anything, because they will do the exact opposite. Why? Because its funnier that way, namely. The second you start asking for their help, they start in with their "not your personal army" mantra and will, at best, ignore you. Worst case, the Leviathan turns against you and attempts to make your life hell.

If Anon picks up your side of a cause, I guess bully for you, but don't try to call down their thunder lest you find your house signed up for various white supremacy groups and leather-bar bear magazines.


I call them for help whenever I want a free pizza or 20.
 
2012-01-29 09:16:57 AM
Philip Francis Queeg: erveek: One person defecated on a cop car.
All orders by the police are lawful orders.
Disobeying police means you deserve to be beaten severely.
No one knows what occupiers want.
Drum circles.
Smelly hippies.
Get a job.
Entitled.

Have I missed any derping points?

Class warfare


ipads.
 
2012-01-29 09:17:49 AM
a much-anticipated demonstration focused on the planned takeover of a vacant downtown convention center

demonstrators began tearing down the fencing around the auditorium


How, exactly, were these actions meant to further the occupy movement's goals? How were the police NOT justified when the group was basically breaking and entering and turning into a mob?
 
2012-01-29 09:27:01 AM
Protesting does NOT give you the right to break the law.


i support the OWS cause, but they have to get this through their heads. Being hoodlums will NOT garner sympathy for your cause. You have to take the high road, long, uphill and winding as it is.
 
2012-01-29 09:30:29 AM
apeiron242: Protesting does NOT give you the right to break the law.

i support the OWS cause, but they have to get this through their heads. Being hoodlums will NOT garner sympathy for your cause. You have to take the high road, long, uphill and winding as it is.


doesn't matter. even when OWS obeys laws the cops just bust heads and 'clear the streets'. Then our usual shills show up here and make false claims about 'lawbreaking protesters'.

on the whole, I'd rather the protesters just do their thing. the cops are going to arrest them no matter WHAT they do.
 
2012-01-29 09:36:07 AM
Weaver95: apeiron242: Protesting does NOT give you the right to break the law.

i support the OWS cause, but they have to get this through their heads. Being hoodlums will NOT garner sympathy for your cause. You have to take the high road, long, uphill and winding as it is.

doesn't matter. even when OWS obeys laws the cops just bust heads and 'clear the streets'. Then our usual shills show up here and make false claims about 'lawbreaking protesters'.

on the whole, I'd rather the protesters just do their thing. the cops are going to arrest them no matter WHAT they do.


Really, if the worst their doing is breaking into an empty and unused convention center to set up camp, I'm not bothered. But then again, I'm a great-grandson of the Flint/Detroit sitdown strikes and a child of a all union family, so my perspective may be skewd slightly on acceptable protest tactics.
 
2012-01-29 09:36:58 AM
They are, rather, not their. Autocorrect is not my friend.
 
2012-01-29 09:39:20 AM
Shadowknight: Weaver95: apeiron242: Protesting does NOT give you the right to break the law.

i support the OWS cause, but they have to get this through their heads. Being hoodlums will NOT garner sympathy for your cause. You have to take the high road, long, uphill and winding as it is.

doesn't matter. even when OWS obeys laws the cops just bust heads and 'clear the streets'. Then our usual shills show up here and make false claims about 'lawbreaking protesters'.

on the whole, I'd rather the protesters just do their thing. the cops are going to arrest them no matter WHAT they do.

Really, if the worst their doing is breaking into an empty and unused convention center to set up camp, I'm not bothered. But then again, I'm a great-grandson of the Flint/Detroit sitdown strikes and a child of a all union family, so my perspective may be skewd slightly on acceptable protest tactics.


I'm with you. Frankly, what ISN'T illegal nowadays? Seriously. We're socially legislated out the ass.
 
2012-01-29 09:41:15 AM
25.media.tumblr.com
 
2012-01-29 09:41:51 AM
apeiron242: Protesting does NOT give you the right to break the law.

i support the OWS cause, but they have to get this through their heads. Being hoodlums will NOT garner sympathy for your cause. You have to take the high road, long, uphill and winding as it is.


A couple of things.

First off, protesting sometimes requires breaking the law. It's called civil disobedience, and while one has to accept that they will be arrested for such things, they can certainly speak about any brutality that occurs during it.

Secondly, from what I saw, there was a march which got kettled, the order to leave was never clearly given, let alone the standard three warnings, and then people were not allowed to leave because they were blocked in.

Yes, arrests happen when you do protests, but the arrests should be held to legal scrutiny as well. The cops, particularly in Oakland, don't really have a trustworthy record.
 
2012-01-29 09:41:55 AM
Shadowknight:
Really, if the worst their doing is breaking into an empty and unused convention center to set up camp, I'm not bothered. But then again, I'm a great-grandson of the Flint/Detroit sitdown strikes and a child of a all union family, so my perspective may be skewd slightly on acceptable protest tactics.


it really doesn't matter what the OWS protesters do - the cops are just gonna bust heads and then make up a reason later. it's been happening time and time again. the protesters get clarification on the rules, they follow those rules, and then the cops ignore their agreement with OWS and just steamroll 'em at 2am and throw a bunch of people into a jail cell.

I'm actually impressed with the restraint showed by the OWS movement. i'm not certain i'd be able to remain that patient and calm while being subjected to that level of blatant thuggery by the cops. the majority of violence, brutality and lawbreaking comes from law enforcement, not the protesters. there's gigabytes of video evidence backing that claim too...and yet the press ignores it, and our GOP/authoritarian shills just show up and lie about it.

when the season turns and weather gets warmer, we'll see more people return to these protests. Add in the election year crazy and you've got a perfect recipe for disaster.
 
2012-01-29 09:45:40 AM
erveek:

No one knows what occupiers want.

Have I missed any derping points?


We *do* know what Occupiers want. Economic reform/tax the rich/help the poor/less interventionist foreign policy. They've said it a million times. *That's the problem.* There's a point at which any message, however important and relevant, loses its effect with mindless repetition. If public opinion is now indifferent to police harassment against and brutality towards Occupy protesters, I think that it is the idea that the Occupiers have said their say ad nauseam that is to blame for that. Mayor Quan of Oakland was reported as saying more or less the same thing in so many words in the linked article ("the residents of Oakland are wearying of the constant focus and cost to our city.") She should know as well as anyone; it's her job to keep up with things like that.
 
2012-01-29 09:46:03 AM
Have they generated any new rubber bullet pics? The old ones are getting hard to /fap to...
 
2012-01-29 09:48:10 AM
I, for one percent, welcome out new Über 1% Overlords, and wish the media would get off it's ass and provide clear concise commands of what we, the former middleclass now scum, are supposed to do.
 
2012-01-29 09:54:39 AM
tirob: erveek: Have I missed any derping points?

We *do* know what Occupiers want. Economic reform/tax the rich/help the poor/less interventionist foreign policy. They've said it a million times. *That's the problem.* There's a point at which any message, however important and relevant, loses its effect with mindless repetition. If public opinion is now indifferent to police harassment against and brutality towards Occupy protesters, I think that it is the idea that the Occupiers have said their say ad nauseam that is to blame for that. Mayor Quan of Oakland was reported as saying more or less the same thing in so many words in the linked article ("the residents of Oakland are wearying of the constant focus and cost to our city.") She should know as well as anyone; it's her job to keep up with things like that.


Ooh. That was a long one.
 
2012-01-29 09:56:27 AM
Sarah Palin's Conscience: I call them for help whenever I want a free pizza or 20.

Anonymous doesn't pay for pizza.
 
2012-01-29 10:03:02 AM
apeiron242:

Protesting does NOT give you the police the right to break the law.


FIFY.

And you don't need big type to be right.
 
2012-01-29 10:04:27 AM
I'm not a part of the 99% that wants to break into City Halls and trash the place. How the protesters expect to gain sympathy through rioting, I don't know. All the examples Martin Luther King set about having a non-violent protest have been totally forgotten.
 
2012-01-29 10:05:42 AM
apeiron242: Protesting does NOT give you the right to break the law.

i support the OWS cause, but they have to get this through their heads. Being hoodlums will NOT garner sympathy for your cause. You have to take the high road, long, uphill and winding as it is.



Disagree. Civil disobedience is often illegal. Rosa parks, Gandhi, french revolutionists all did things that were illegal because they felt their cause was just.

erveek: One person defecated on a cop car.
All orders by the police are lawful orders.
Disobeying police means you deserve to be beaten severely.
No one knows what occupiers want.
Drum circles.
Smelly hippies.
Get a job.
Entitled.

Have I missed any derping points?


And not all orders given by police are lawful. If you feel an order given by a police officer is not lawful you have the duty to resist an unlawful arrest:Court cases/precedent

For example:

"Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case, the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense." (State v. Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100).
 
2012-01-29 10:11:20 AM
skinink: I'm not a part of the 99% that wants to break into City Halls and trash the place. How the protesters expect to gain sympathy through rioting, I don't know. All the examples Martin Luther King set about having a non-violent protest have been totally forgotten.

Almost all of his protests were unlawful and deemed riots at the time. Remember the fire hoses ans attack dogs?
 
2012-01-29 10:11:58 AM
Leaving aside the OWS stuff: if a building is abandoned, anyone who wants to move in and actually maintain the property should be allowed to move in. We got plenty of abandoned space in this country, and people could be living in it or starting businesses.

/end threadjack
 
2012-01-29 10:18:43 AM
Anyone who is opposed to the OWS style of protest, please answer the following;

How do you think a large scale, decentralized protest ought to behave or ought to look?

Should they always obey every order given by anyone with a badge, even when said orders fly in the face of our basic rights as citizens?

Should they begin to target private companies, or maintain their current approach of demonstrating in public venues?

Should they be prosecuted for their acts of civil disobedience?


I ask not to mock or make fun of your responses, but to better understand where you are coming from. I honestly do not get the opposition from many people to OWS protests, as what they are arguing for is to the benefit of every citizen, at the expense of those who have exploited and gamed our system for their own personal benefit. If a group of sociopaths re-arranges the distribution of wealth in this country so that they control nearly all of it, should we allow them to continue do so because they were able to at one time?! That doesn't make sense! It's playing by the school yard rules of "no take backs" and other such simple concepts, without understanding that there is more going on than trading lunches.

People are dying in horrible agony for want of medical care. Children aren't able to receive a decent education. Previously self-supporting families are forced to depend upon government aid or sell off necessary assets such as vehicles and homes. Argue about what is "fair" only AFTER those basic needs are seen to for the mainstay of society. It doesn't matter that it seems "unfair" to pay a 65% tax rate on all money you make over 1 million dollars, but it is inhumane to allow someone to rot away with Alzheimer in a sub-par nursing home because that is all that a family can afford... if they can afford that at all. By sub-par I mean they MIGHT get their diaper changed once a day. This is the world in which we live, and this is the world that the OWS protestors seek to change. Why wouldn't someone support this? Help me to understand, please.
 
2012-01-29 10:19:55 AM
A large part of the state of the union speech was OWS's agenda.

Another OWS success story
 
2012-01-29 10:20:16 AM
Weaver95: when the season turns and weather gets warmer, we'll see more people return to these protests. Add in the election year crazy and you've got a perfect recipe for disaster.

I don't know if they will. I live in the Fox Valley in Wisconsin, and I was involved with the Occupy movement up there. The problem with that local movement is that it was led by a few local college kids who had no idea what they were protesting. They were more interested in philosophy gardens and camping in a park instead of formulating a message that would reach the mostly-conservative population of the area. (One of the leaders of the movement felt that the message should just be "listen to us" and let everyone bring their pet issues.)

Between the lack of a message and posting an inflammatory article on their Facebook page where one of the moderators said he was glad a flag was being burned (and sent the other moderators into a tizzy trying to justify that comment...but by then it was too late), they turned off a lot of people who would otherwise support the movement.

tirob: We *do* know what Occupiers want. Economic reform/tax the rich/help the poor/less interventionist foreign policy. They've said it a million times. *That's the problem.* There's a point at which any message, however important and relevant, loses its effect with mindless repetition. If public opinion is now indifferent to police harassment against and brutality towards Occupy protesters, I think that it is the idea that the Occupiers have said their say ad nauseam that is to blame for that.

Or that Occupy hasn't communicated their message in a way that makes people care, and/or allowed the media to misinterpret their message.
 
2012-01-29 10:21:04 AM
img.timeinc.net

I wonder where this guy stands?

99%, or 1%?


/Man of the people
 
2012-01-29 10:22:09 AM
skinink: I'm not a part of the 99% that wants to break into City Halls and trash the place. How the protesters expect to gain sympathy through rioting, I don't know. All the examples Martin Luther King set about having a non-violent protest have been totally forgotten.

I believe they were trying to reclaim an abandoned building to create a community center when the police starting shooting tear gas, smoke grenades, and rubber bullets at them. Also, a couple people were beaten with police batons and had to be taken to the hospital.

But yeah, I guess it's the people's fault.
 
2012-01-29 10:23:16 AM
erveek: tirob: erveek: Have I missed any derping points?

We *do* know what Occupiers want. Economic reform/tax the rich/help the poor/less interventionist foreign policy. They've said it a million times. *That's the problem.* There's a point at which any message, however important and relevant, loses its effect with mindless repetition. If public opinion is now indifferent to police harassment against and brutality towards Occupy protesters, I think that it is the idea that the Occupiers have said their say ad nauseam that is to blame for that. Mayor Quan of Oakland was reported as saying more or less the same thing in so many words in the linked article ("the residents of Oakland are wearying of the constant focus and cost to our city.") She should know as well as anyone; it's her job to keep up with things like that.

Ooh. That was a long one.


Just trying to slip you a friendly warning.
 
2012-01-29 10:24:15 AM
Hot Rod Zoidberg: skinink: I'm not a part of the 99% that wants to break into City Halls and trash the place. How the protesters expect to gain sympathy through rioting, I don't know. All the examples Martin Luther King set about having a non-violent protest have been totally forgotten.

I believe they were trying to reclaim an abandoned building to create a community center when the police starting shooting tear gas, smoke grenades, and rubber bullets at them. Also, a couple people were beaten with police batons and had to be taken to the hospital.

But yeah, I guess it's the people's fault.


The police were probably too strong handed about it, but people just can't reclaim abandoned buildings willy-nilly, you won't win a lot of public support that way.

And this is coming from someone who supports OWS's cause.
 
2012-01-29 10:27:16 AM
religionblog.dallasnews.com

Sometimes the public must be reminded who is in charge.


/You'll get over it, citizen
 
2012-01-29 10:28:38 AM
Hot Rod Zoidberg: skinink: I'm not a part of the 99% that wants to break into City Halls and trash the place. How the protesters expect to gain sympathy through rioting, I don't know. All the examples Martin Luther King set about having a non-violent protest have been totally forgotten.

I believe they were trying to reclaim an abandoned building to create a community center when the police starting shooting tear gas, smoke grenades, and rubber bullets at them. Also, a couple people were beaten with police batons and had to be taken to the hospital.

But yeah, I guess it's the people's fault.


THIS. Obey the law, disobey the law, it all ends the same for OWS protestors: Fractured skulls and pepper-spraying old women as cops beat the ever-living fark out of anything that doesn't wear a badge. When your message speaks against corporate ownership of government, the corps send their thugs to show you the price you'll pay for insubordination. And the corporate-owned media will smear you, and the sheep will believe what they are told to believe.

Protest on behalf of corporate ownership of government, however, and you get a media that will race to cover any gathering of five or more protestors and Fox News will devote an entire day to celebrating your "struggle".
 
2012-01-29 10:30:35 AM
You cannot just protest whatever you want, where ever you want, when every you want, How ever you want. We are supposed to be living in a society and respect for other people is part of the calculus.
 
2012-01-29 10:31:42 AM
Bob16: A large part of the state of the union speech was OWSAmerica's agenda.

Another OWS American success story
 
2012-01-29 10:35:45 AM
Zagloba: Sarah Palin's Conscience: I call them for help whenever I want a free pizza or 20.

Anonymous doesn't pay for pizza.


Buddy works at the pizza place downtown. What do you think they do with those pizzas, throw them away?
 
2012-01-29 10:35:51 AM
RandomExcess: You cannot just protest whatever you want, where ever you want, when every you want, How ever you want. We are supposed to be living in a society and respect for other people is part of the calculus.

Unless you're a cop or a billionaire.
 
2012-01-29 10:35:53 AM
RandomExcess: You cannot just protest whatever you want,

Provide the list of things one is not allowed to protest.
 
2012-01-29 10:36:55 AM
RandomExcess: You cannot just protest whatever you want, where ever you want, when every you want, How ever you want. We are supposed to be living in a society and respect for other people is part of the calculus.

Stick to the designated free speech zones, citizen.
 
2012-01-29 10:47:26 AM
Mrtraveler01: Hot Rod Zoidberg: skinink: I'm not a part of the 99% that wants to break into City Halls and trash the place. How the protesters expect to gain sympathy through rioting, I don't know. All the examples Martin Luther King set about having a non-violent protest have been totally forgotten.

I believe they were trying to reclaim an abandoned building to create a community center when the police starting shooting tear gas, smoke grenades, and rubber bullets at them. Also, a couple people were beaten with police batons and had to be taken to the hospital.

But yeah, I guess it's the people's fault.

The police were probably too strong handed about it, but people just can't reclaim abandoned buildings willy-nilly, you won't win a lot of public support that way.

And this is coming from someone who supports OWS's cause.


I agree with you to a point, but I don't see this any more different than finding a pile of wood put out to the curb as trash, taking it, and making a bookshelf. While it is someone else's property and it is illegal to take it, they've clearly demonstrated that they will not be using it.
 
2012-01-29 10:48:20 AM
mordred42: apeiron242: Protesting does NOT give you the right to break the law.

i support the OWS cause, but they have to get this through their heads. Being hoodlums will NOT garner sympathy for your cause. You have to take the high road, long, uphill and winding as it is.


Disagree. Civil disobedience is often illegal. Rosa parks, Gandhi, french revolutionists all did things that were illegal because they felt their cause was just.

erveek: One person defecated on a cop car.
All orders by the police are lawful orders.
Disobeying police means you deserve to be beaten severely.
No one knows what occupiers want.
Drum circles.
Smelly hippies.
Get a job.
Entitled.

Have I missed any derping points?

And not all orders given by police are lawful. If you feel an order given by a police officer is not lawful you have the duty to resist an unlawful arrest:Court cases/precedent

For example:

"Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case, the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense." (State v. Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100).


I know they probably didn't cover it in your law GED materials, but you should really consider going to actual law review articles when trying to learn about legal concepts. Link (new window)

/use of force to resist unlawful arrest only still exists a few states (mostly the south) and even then it's severely limited.
 
2012-01-29 10:49:23 AM
Mrtraveler01: The police were probably too strong handed about it, but people just can't reclaim abandoned buildings willy-nilly, you won't win a lot of public support that way.

How is one meant to reclaim an abandoned building, if not 'willy-nilly'?
 
2012-01-29 10:52:21 AM
mordred42: "Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case, the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense." (State v. Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100).

That must look good on paper.
 
2012-01-29 10:53:33 AM
Bob16: A large part of the state of the union speech was OWS's agenda.

Another OWS success story


Is this what Fox and Friends said this morning?
 
2012-01-29 10:54:10 AM
Shadowknight: skinink: I'm not a part of the 99% that wants to break into City Halls and trash the place. How the protesters expect to gain sympathy through rioting, I don't know. All the examples Martin Luther King set about having a non-violent protest have been totally forgotten.

Almost all of his protests were unlawful and deemed riots at the time. Remember the fire hoses ans attack dogs?


Of course his protests were proclaimed unlawful, but you ignored my point. I was strictly addressing the violent vs non-violent protests. I seemed to have miised the stories where MArtin Luther King and Co. went into diners and totally trashed the places and were violent about it. Yea the police and authorities against you are going to go for you no matter what, but my belief is you get more support when you're not trying to wreck shiat and act like idiots. Plus you make the police look more sympathetic and give them the cover they want to abuse the protesters.


Or maybe you like more the Malcolm X method of protesting.

 
2012-01-29 10:56:53 AM
epoc_tnac: Mrtraveler01: The police were probably too strong handed about it, but people just can't reclaim abandoned buildings willy-nilly, you won't win a lot of public support that way.

How is one meant to reclaim an abandoned building, if not 'willy-nilly'?


Did we just get invaded by an old NetZero commercial?
 
2012-01-29 11:00:12 AM
The U.S. is a nation of laws. Don't break the law and you won't get in trouble.
 
2012-01-29 11:00:25 AM
Amos Quito: [religionblog.dallasnews.com image 393x263]

Sometimes the public must be reminded who is in charge.


/You'll get over it, citizen


That doesn't count. They were icky evil religious racists who liked guns and taken down by a good and noble democrat president. Government violence has a place when it helps my side.
 
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