Let me put it a different way...

Challenge: Attempting to live using an out dated system that cannot support modern society.

Argggg! Hipsters suck! Eat fast food like real americans!

FunkOut: randomjsa: Let me put it a different way...

Challenge: Attempting to live using an out dated system that cannot support modern society.

Please explain more.

This.

Seems to be working just fine.

/Cheers!

Teaser for a new TV show about my dad and his effort to help implement appropriate technology.

Thought you farkers might enjoy.

REPLAN IT

/Also a shameless plug

Yep. Check some of the other material to the right. This was just a little snippet.

Also, Jock is the guy who drives the dump truck over the bridge in the opening scene of "Maximum Overdrive."

He also gets killed by a shotgun blast in the attic scene of "Scanners."

And he's the priest that gets eaten by the bed in "Death Bed: The Bed That Eats People."

abandoned meat-packing plant

But enough about your mom...

How is that a challenge? Get some animals in there, slaughter and process them using the old equipment, add in some veggies....wait, you what? You want to try and work outside the eating habits of the omnivorous Homo Sapiens? With plants that simply don't taste good?

Have fun with that.

Ha! Subby's mom is an ab-

Hagbardr: abandoned meat-packing plant

But enough about your mom...

...Dammit.

Link moved? Damn, we killed that story faster than {insert thing killed fast here}.

JosephFinn: How is that a challenge? Get some animals in there, slaughter and process them using the old equipment, add in some veggies....wait, you what? You want to try and work outside the eating habits of the omnivorous Homo Sapiens? With plants that simply don't taste good?

Have fun with that.

The amount of meat westerners (and Americans in particular) eat is a unsustainable proposition. Biology is shockingly, mortifyingly inefficient - It takes over a hundred gallons of water to produce one kilogram of grain and hay, and over a hundred kilograms of grain and hay to grow one kilogram of cow meat. A single (grotesquely oversized fast food) beef patty might represent an entire swimming pool's worth of water, much of it drawn out of aquifers, and an amount of artificial fertilizers (the deposits of raw materials for which are being used up so fast they'll run out within a few decades) to match.

Now, I'm quite well acquainted with the intended use of my front teeth, but I know that the time is shortly at hand that my fellow American fatasses will be forced to stop eating meat by the kilogram with every meal because we simply can't afford to waste the water and fertilizer for it any more.

/Now, bacon... delicious, delicious bacon, on the other hand...
//Agrees about the delusions about getting any meaningful number of people to eat yuck-tasting plants

erik-k: JosephFinn:

The amount of meat westerners (and Americans in particular) eat is a unsustainable proposition. Biology is shockingly, mortifyingly inefficient - It takes over a hundred gallons of water to produce one kilogram of grain and hay, and over a hundred kilograms of grain and hay to grow one kilogram of cow meat. A single (grotesquely oversized fast food) beef patty might represent an entire swimming pool's worth of water, much of it drawn out of aquifers, and an amount of artificial fertilizers (the deposits of raw materials for which are being used up so fast they'll run out within a few decades) to match.

Now, I'm quite well acquainted with the intended use of my front teeth, but I know that the time is shortly at hand that my fellow American fatasses will be forced to stop eating meat by the kilogram with every meal because we simply can't afford to waste the water and fertilizer for it any more.

/Now, bacon... delicious, delicious bacon, on the other hand...
//Agrees about the delusions about getting any meaningful number of people to eat yuck-tasting plants

Incidentally, this is also why large meaty animals are sacred or forbidden in some religions. The powers that be didn't want vital resources wasted on the animals.

Cool idea, but it's pretty unlikely they'll be able to get enough bio-gas to power the whole thing. They're going to need another source of energy. Maybe they could throw up a couple of wind-turbines on the roof. I hear it gets pretty windy in Chicago.

randomjsa: Let me put it a different way...

Challenge: Attempting to live using an out dated system that cannot support modern society.

You're a fool.

doglover: gadian: erik-k: JosephFinn:

The amount of meat westerners (and Americans in particular) eat is a unsustainable proposition. Biology is shockingly, mortifyingly inefficient - It takes over a hundred gallons of water to produce one kilogram of grain and hay, and over a hundred kilograms of grain and hay to grow one kilogram of cow meat. A single (grotesquely oversized fast food) beef patty might represent an entire swimming pool's worth of water, much of it drawn out of aquifers, and an amount of artificial fertilizers (the deposits of raw materials for which are being used up so fast they'll run out within a few decades) to match.

Now, I'm quite well acquainted with the intended use of my front teeth, but I know that the time is shortly at hand that my fellow American fatasses will be forced to stop eating meat by the kilogram with every meal because we simply can't afford to waste the water and fertilizer for it any more.

/Now, bacon... delicious, delicious bacon, on the other hand...
//Agrees about the delusions about getting any meaningful number of people to eat yuck-tasting plants

Incidentally, this is also why large meaty animals are sacred or forbidden in some religions. The powers that be didn't want vital resources wasted on the animals.

Well, I couldn't give two shiats about your unsupported statistics. If cows run out, I'm frying up katydids and pill bugs and using chicken eggs to make some kind of acceptable burger out of ground up mealyworms.




No need for those extremes.

I had a thought of creating this idea using abandoned grocery stores, glad that someone is doing this.

I thought of using solar tubes instead of lights for the plants. Of course I wanted to start it in florida where the exterior summer weather is too harsh to grow many vegetables. Maybe tear up the parking lot and plant a small meadow and put some mini xebu out and goats out for milk and meat. Goat cheese goes for $16/pound, would definitely be profitable. Also turn the walk in coolers into sterile mushroom grow rooms.

Plants have fairly inefficient photosynthesis - OK, it's better than anything we've done, but still, it could be better.

The reason it isn't is that plants are more or less at their limit of drawing water to deal with the heat of soaking up sun.

So, I suggest we build multiple-story farms where a fraction of the available sunlight is piped to each floor, and then breed more efficient plants to live on the reduced light input.

Problem solved!

erik-k: The amount of meat westerners (and Americans in particular) eat is a unsustainable proposition. Biology is shockingly, mortifyingly inefficient - It takes over a hundred gallons of water to produce one kilogram of grain and hay, and over a hundred kilograms of grain and hay to grow one kilogram of cow meat.

A cow is a tool for turning inedible plants into something edible.

Uh... you think that ranchers irrigate their pastures? How many actually do that?

Bad_Seed: Cool idea, but it's pretty unlikely they'll be able to get enough bio-gas to power the whole thing. They're going to need another source of energy. Maybe they could throw up a couple of wind-turbines on the roof. I hear it gets pretty windy in Chicago.

I was kinda thinking the same thing - if they could at least harvest sunlight as much as possible for plant growing that would help.

They do show an input of "food wastes from neighboring businesses" which could maintain it if there's enough, but at that point I wouldn't consider it to be properly sustainable and "off-grid" anymore.

If they DO manage to create something that is entirely self-sufficient, then I say we pack it up in a spaceship and go rescue the Spirit rover.
=Smidge=

unyon: FunkOut: randomjsa: Let me put it a different way...

Challenge: Attempting to live using an out dated system that cannot support modern society.

Please explain more.
I'm on pins and needles as well. Explain to me how unlimited growth is supportable with finite resources. I grew up on a farm. Please tell me how pumping nitrogen inputs into the soil indefinitely is sustainable.

What amazes me is how conservatives have this huge blind spot when it comes to actual conservation. Your rainbows and unicorns approach to agriculture is mind boggling.

Oh well. At least you'll be a sport about buying your food from a facility like this in the future. You won't have a choice.

LOL. Did you know there's thing called "outside" where food can be grown?

WelldeadLink: erik-k: The amount of meat westerners (and Americans in particular) eat is a unsustainable proposition. Biology is shockingly, mortifyingly inefficient - It takes over a hundred gallons of water to produce one kilogram of grain and hay, and over a hundred kilograms of grain and hay to grow one kilogram of cow meat.

A cow is a tool for turning inedible plants into something edible.

Uh... you think that ranchers irrigate their pastures? How many actually do that?

Yeah, and how much beef comes from grass-fed cattle versus cattle raised on corn, standing knee-deep in its own shiat, in high-density feed lots? *Now with more anti-biotics!*

I am very conscious about the environment so I cook on my gas stove as little as possible. You can just smell the chemicals when you turn the thing on. Instead I grill almost everyday. Yes, I go through 3-4 bags of charcoal a week, and it can get expensive, but I like to think of the impact i have on the environment.

How much work do they have to put in to this versus how much surplus do they produce (ignoring the expense of the equipment and existing structures)?

Right now 1-2% of the population works to feed the rest. That allows modern society to exist.

We could undoubtedly have entirely sustainable organic farming provide all our food, we've done it before. But that means 99% work in the fields and we'd need to get rid of most of the population first.

/we can make some efforts towards sustainability but going completely in that direction is only feasible for small groups like this, living off the excesses of a modern society.

erik-k: JosephFinn: How is that a challenge? Get some animals in there, slaughter and process them using the old equipment, add in some veggies....wait, you what? You want to try and work outside the eating habits of the omnivorous Homo Sapiens? With plants that simply don't taste good?

Have fun with that.

The amount of meat westerners (and Americans in particular) eat is a unsustainable proposition. Biology is shockingly, mortifyingly inefficient - It takes over a hundred gallons of water to produce one kilogram of grain and hay, and over a hundred kilograms of grain and hay to grow one kilogram of cow meat. A single (grotesquely oversized fast food) beef patty might represent an entire swimming pool's worth of water, much of it drawn out of aquifers, and an amount of artificial fertilizers (the deposits of raw materials for which are being used up so fast they'll run out within a few decades) to match.

Now, I'm quite well acquainted with the intended use of my front teeth, but I know that the time is shortly at hand that my fellow American fatasses will be forced to stop eating meat by the kilogram with every meal because we simply can't afford to waste the water and fertilizer for it any more.

/Now, bacon... delicious, delicious bacon, on the other hand...
//Agrees about the delusions about getting any meaningful number of people to eat yuck-tasting plants

Because once the cows "use up" the water it's gone forever right?

taurusowner: Because once the cows "use up" the water it's gone forever right?

[sibel2011section9.edublogs.org image 400x274]


Only if produced in the west following modern techniques.

Organic practices allow the water to be recycled.

But western cows are so thirsty from the antibiotics and growth hormones that the water they drink is gone, permanently.

I like how this is sustainable off the grid life, funded by grants. Yeah, that's sustainable. . . Plus- when has artificial lighting ever been cost effective for anything but marijuana? I'll answer that for you: never.

(Yes, I understand the LEDs are more efficient. . . I use them myself, but again, not for lettuce production, and not using grid electricity. . . how is that "off grid?"

Bad_Seed: [www.popsci.com image 525x363]

Cool idea, but it's pretty unlikely they'll be able to get enough bio-gas to power the whole thing. They're going to need another source of energy. Maybe they could throw up a couple of wind-turbines on the roof. I hear it gets pretty windy in Chicago.

Ditto. It's called basic energetics and the number of people who think they can create their own closed loop utopia without understanding the basic energy content of the system: quantified inputs and outputs and cycling efficiencies is a bit concerning. The number of people that think they can heat their homes or greenhouses or whatever with compost or biogas. . . I always ask what the estimated output is and it's blank stares. It's bad science fundamentally, and a complete misunderstanding of efficiencies and conservation of matter . . .

DBrandisNC: Because once the cows "use up" the water it's gone forever right?

[sibel2011section9.edublogs.org image 400x274]

Your diagram fails to mention that people are draining the aquifer thousands of times (millions?) faster than its replenished.

jaytkay: DBrandisNC: Because once the cows "use up" the water it's gone forever right?

[sibel2011section9.edublogs.org image 400x274]

Your diagram fails to mention that people are draining the aquifer thousands of times (millions?) faster than its replenished.

"the" aquifer...

You know how I know that you don't understand basic geology?

kbotc: You know how I know that you don't understand basic geology?

Yeah, obviously I believe there is a single world-wide aquifer.

Therefore you are correct and there has never been a water shortage or drought in the history of Earth.

WelldeadLink:
A cow is a tool for turning inedible plants into something edible.
Would be, if Americans would accept the beef that results from feeding the cow only grass and stalks. Feeding the cow food-grade corn has the same effect on the cow as it does on the human, though-makes it soft and fat.

DBrandisNC: Teaser for a new TV show about my dad and his effort to help implement appropriate technology.

Thought you farkers might enjoy.

REPLAN IT

/Also a shameless plug

This is very cool! Kudos to your Dad and all who're contributing to this project. I'll be interested to see more about it.

jaytkay: kbotc: You know how I know that you don't understand basic geology?

Yeah, obviously I believe there is a single world-wide aquifer.

Therefore you are correct and there has never been a water shortage or drought in the history of Earth.

I know what you're trying to say, but the US has huge amounts of water excess that we just don't tap. If it became a real, serious, problem, we would just start demanding a reduction of agriculture in the arid lands and shift that back east where it belongs anyways. The Teays river left some amazing aquifers out in the midwest.

kbotc: jaytkay: kbotc: You know how I know that you don't understand basic geology?

Yeah, obviously I believe there is a single world-wide aquifer.

Therefore you are correct and there has never been a water shortage or drought in the history of Earth.

I know what you're trying to say, but the US has huge amounts of water excess that we just don't tap. If it became a real, serious, problem, we would just start demanding a reduction of agriculture in the arid lands and shift that back east where it belongs anyways. The Teays river left some amazing aquifers out in the midwest.

You're adorable. Shift agriculture back east. Ha ha! Good luck with that. What politician in the western U.S. has the political will to ever attempt something as crazy as that? The farmers and ranchers would go apeshiat. Hell, look at Phoenix and Vegas. Especially Phoenix. The whole damn city still thinks they're living in Ohio with the way they use water out there. The problem is we have excess water in areas that are not as agriculturally viable when compared to say, the Great Plains. Out there the soil is great, but the water is lacking. In short, we have all the right things, but in all the wrong areas.

I guess you have an out in saying "real, serious problem" because it would have to be civilization-threatening for our government and politicians to suggest something like that. They'd probably force people to move out of the major western cities before they tried to curtail or move agriculture.

taurusowner: erik-k: JosephFinn: How is that a challenge? Get some animals in there, slaughter and process them using the old equipment, add in some veggies....wait, you what? You want to try and work outside the eating habits of the omnivorous Homo Sapiens? With plants that simply don't taste good?

Have fun with that.

The amount of meat westerners (and Americans in particular) eat is a unsustainable proposition. Biology is shockingly, mortifyingly inefficient - It takes over a hundred gallons of water to produce one kilogram of grain and hay, and over a hundred kilograms of grain and hay to grow one kilogram of cow meat. A single (grotesquely oversized fast food) beef patty might represent an entire swimming pool's worth of water, much of it drawn out of aquifers, and an amount of artificial fertilizers (the deposits of raw materials for which are being used up so fast they'll run out within a few decades) to match.

Now, I'm quite well acquainted with the intended use of my front teeth, but I know that the time is shortly at hand that my fellow American fatasses will be forced to stop eating meat by the kilogram with every meal because we simply can't afford to waste the water and fertilizer for it any more.

/Now, bacon... delicious, delicious bacon, on the other hand...
//Agrees about the delusions about getting any meaningful number of people to eat yuck-tasting plants

Because once the cows "use up" the water it's gone forever right?

[sibel2011section9.edublogs.org image 400x274]

Of course the water cycle on earth is (very nearly) closed. That doesn't mean that draining water from aquifers at the rate we're doing in the midwest can be continued. The groundwater level in many areas has decreased by over a hundred feet due to human extraction.

A great many activities humans do - burning fossil fuel, industrial farming, and commercial fishing chiefly among them - are conducted in a manner which states that their conductors believe earth is infinite, or they would have never done things this way. When it comes to carbon dioxide release, groundwater depletion and agricultural runoff, and overfishing, we're currently running pretty much exclusively on the belief that earth is infinite and you can take/dump all you want without screwing things up. And earth is pretty darn big and it's got quite a bit of inertia behind whatever direction it was originally going, so we've thus far been able to get away with burning a large fraction of the fossil fuels in two centuries which took nature hundreds of millions of years to lay down, or dumping anything we feel like into rivers from farms, or drawing all the water we want from aquifers.

But we're now beginning to see earth's reactions - aquifer depletion, global warming, collapse of fishery stocks, dead zones outside of river discharges contaminated with vast amounts of nitrates. There's been some action on preventing fishery collapses, but for the most part the other 3 are still plowing ahead full tilt. Eventually, earth will "do" something very nasty that will force the re-evaluation of the ludicrous "earth is infinite" belief - that's all I'm saying.

unyon: FunkOut: randomjsa: Let me put it a different way...

Challenge: Attempting to live using an out dated system that cannot support modern society.

Please explain more.
I'm on pins and needles as well. Explain to me how unlimited growth is supportable with finite resources. I grew up on a farm. Please tell me how pumping nitrogen inputs into the soil indefinitely is sustainable.

What amazes me is how conservatives have this huge blind spot when it comes to actual conservation. Your rainbows and unicorns approach to agriculture is mind boggling.

Oh well. At least you'll be a sport about buying your food from a facility like this in the future. You won't have a choice.

We'll have orbital farm colonies and space-based solar power, duh.

Quantum Apostrophe: unyon: FunkOut: randomjsa: Let me put it a different way...

Challenge: Attempting to live using an out dated system that cannot support modern society.

Please explain more.
I'm on pins and needles as well. Explain to me how unlimited growth is supportable with finite resources. I grew up on a farm. Please tell me how pumping nitrogen inputs into the soil indefinitely is sustainable.

What amazes me is how conservatives have this huge blind spot when it comes to actual conservation. Your rainbows and unicorns approach to agriculture is mind boggling.

Oh well. At least you'll be a sport about buying your food from a facility like this in the future. You won't have a choice.

We'll have orbital farm colonies and space-based solar power, duh.

I can see a future in which we actually do have space wheels in orbit about the Sun, rotating to generate simulated gravity. I just don't see it any time soon, as we lack the ability to maintain such a small ecology over any appreciable length of time. The manufacturing and initial stocking of a space colony is also somewhat problematic at present... then there's shielding.

Our big partially-molten metallic rock does a lot for us that's difficult to recreate on a smaller scale.

net-zero energy is such a BS, made up, crap term. What the hell does it even mean?

Unsung_Hero: Quantum Apostrophe: unyon: FunkOut: randomjsa: Let me put it a different way...

Challenge: Attempting to live using an out dated system that cannot support modern society.

Please explain more.
I'm on pins and needles as well. Explain to me how unlimited growth is supportable with finite resources. I grew up on a farm. Please tell me how pumping nitrogen inputs into the soil indefinitely is sustainable.

What amazes me is how conservatives have this huge blind spot when it comes to actual conservation. Your rainbows and unicorns approach to agriculture is mind boggling.

Oh well. At least you'll be a sport about buying your food from a facility like this in the future. You won't have a choice.

We'll have orbital farm colonies and space-based solar power, duh.

I can see a future in which we actually do have space wheels in orbit about the Sun, rotating to generate simulated gravity. I just don't see it any time soon, as we lack the ability to maintain such a small ecology over any appreciable length of time. The manufacturing and initial stocking of a space colony is also somewhat problematic at present... then there's shielding.

I see a future were people will look back at these types of delusions and laugh.

Our big partially-molten metallic rock does a lot for us that's difficult to recreate on a smaller scale.

That's right.

Maybe we're eating the wrong animals.

Quantum Apostrophe: blah blah blah

Shut up, life extension nutter. Go threadshiat somewhere else.