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(Adam Smith) Interesting History shows over and over that raising the capital gains rate actually lowers government revenues, while decreasing the capital gains rate increases government revenues. (pdf warning)   (adamsmith.org) divider line 99
More: Interesting, government revenues, capital gains  
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1098 clicks; posted to Politics » on 25 Jan 2012 at 10:33 AM   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»   |    Get this fabulous T-Shirt and impress the methane out of your friends! shirt it!



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2012-01-25 10:04:09 AM
GODZILLA!
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-01-25 10:26:06 AM
More of the Laffer curve nonsense. Good luck with that.
 
2012-01-25 10:30:33 AM
Yeah, no.
 
2012-01-25 10:35:33 AM
img813.imageshack.us
 
2012-01-25 10:35:46 AM
DOUBLE TAXATION! JOB KILLERS! HARD-EARNED MONEY! GUNPOINT ROBBERY!
 
2012-01-25 10:36:04 AM
Then we should completely eliminate the capital gains tax and reap the staggering profits. Budget balanced!
 
2012-01-25 10:36:25 AM
Any consideration for other economic forces? No?

The Laffer Curve is a nice idea that fails in the face of human nature.
 
2012-01-25 10:36:27 AM
Therefore, in order to have infinite revenues, we should have a negative capital gains tax. For every dollar you earn through investment, the government gives you 3!
 
2012-01-25 10:36:30 AM
Doesnt matter, this is about fairness, not government revenue.
 
2012-01-25 10:37:08 AM
Well I'm sure an analysis from something called the Adam Smith Institute has no bias.
 
2012-01-25 10:41:02 AM
This has been thoroughly debunked by Krugman and others, subby. You want citations? Dig 'em up yourself; I get tired of trying to argue with people who believe this rot.
 
2012-01-25 10:41:34 AM
the rich love their money more than their country and will find ways to screw it over at a certain price point.
 
2012-01-25 10:42:04 AM
Excellent if we reduce the capital gains tax to 0% the government will have an endless supply of revenues!
 
2012-01-25 10:42:45 AM
who cares about facts and government revenue?! we need to make sure that Buffet's secretary doesn't pay more than her boss!
 
2012-01-25 10:42:58 AM
GAT_00: Well I'm sure an analysis from something called the Adam Smith Institute has no bias.

I suspect the people at the Adam Smith Institute would actually hate many of the things Adam Smith had to say. Like this: "It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."
 
2012-01-25 10:43:18 AM
Does history show over and over again that correlation means causation?
 
2012-01-25 10:44:07 AM
I find it deliciously ironic that an organization named after Adam Smith completely ignores what Adam Smith wrote in favor of Ludwig von Mises's absolutist views on the market.
 
2012-01-25 10:44:34 AM
This is true because they continue to consider capital gains separately from income.
 
2012-01-25 10:44:46 AM
The solution is to change the "tax" to a "reward". That is, the government gives people money for creating capital gains. The federal deficit can be eliminated in six months if we do this. I have run the numbers by the Georgia Republican Operative for Personal Equity and they claim the numbers are better than anything Taxbongo could come up with. Hilarious how I can sit behind a computer and do more good for the country in five minutes than Taxbongo has done in fifty years of being a Kenyan socialist. Stupid libs.
 
2012-01-25 10:44:49 AM
tenpoundsofcheese: who cares about facts and government revenue?!

The people who realize TFA is bullshiat care about facts.
 
2012-01-25 10:45:13 AM
GAT_00

Well I'm sure an analysis from something called the Adam Smith Institute has no bias.


It is a market based economic institute, Im pretty sure their model uses assumptions from the market based economic field.

Its kind of like the Healthcare reform forecasts, you can get it to say what ever you want by controlling the underlying assumptions.
 
2012-01-25 10:45:17 AM
The Homer Tax: Does history show over and over again that correlation means causation?

No, but history shows again and again how nature points up the folly of man.
 
2012-01-25 10:45:23 AM
tenpoundsofcheese: who cares about...

..insufficient information taken from extremely narrow slices of time, excluding other factors that might have the same impact upon revenues, and do what we can to be as duplicitous as possible.
 
2012-01-25 10:46:00 AM
Even assuming that this is true, which, as noted above, it's not, this only shows that decreasing the capital gains taxes increases the volatility of the market. This would result in larger bubbles, deeper busts. Considering the lingering economic impacts of stock bubbles bursting, it's STILL not a good thing.
 
2012-01-25 10:46:28 AM
sprawl15: [img813.imageshack.us image 455x270]

Goddamnit ...the "Laugher" curve...

*yawn*
 
2012-01-25 10:46:44 AM
Non-partisan Congressional Research Office says, huhwut?
http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/R40411_20100618.pdf
 
2012-01-25 10:47:33 AM
If cutting capital gains taxes by 1% is good then cutting it by 100% must be great. You can't argue with that logic!

I'm off to take 200 asprin for my headache.
 
2012-01-25 10:48:26 AM
Ideologicalmitter , the first example in the PDF is Ireland, a nation who starting taking neoliberal advice and lowered their capital gains tax, which resulted in their being bailed out for bad investments -- investments largely driven by fast and loose neoliberal tax polices.
 
2012-01-25 10:48:58 AM
The Homer Tax: Does history show over and over again that correlation means causation?

I'd really love to see Newt's reaction to that.

\v s&f
 
2012-01-25 10:49:13 AM
derpdeederp: Its kind of like the Healthcare reform forecasts, you can get it to say what ever you want by controlling the underlying assumptions.

For projections, yes. But those aren't projections in this little piece of tripe.
When one goes with 'historical' data to support a position, it's all about cutting out data that doesn't jive with the desired rationale.

And just as a matter of course... one is suppose to cite the source of information. I don't see any reference to the various reports, data sets, etc where they would getting their numbers that they are so happily pointing at.
 
2012-01-25 10:53:02 AM
Oh yea?

img837.imageshack.us
 
2012-01-25 10:53:44 AM
Cinaed: Any consideration for other economic forces? No?

Came here to point this out.
 
2012-01-25 10:56:10 AM
The stock market, by which a wealthy individual has the choice of starting their own business, or gambling their money. One option creates jobs and increases GDP - the other reduces competition by monopolizing the market.

But hey, capital gains revenue went up, so who cares!
 
2012-01-25 10:56:51 AM
2.1 The Irish evidence
The 1997 Budget in Ireland halved the rate of taxation of realized capital gains from 40% to 20%. The then Minister for Finance, Charlie McCreevy, was heavily criticized on the grounds that this change would reduce revenues. He countered by predicting that revenues would rise substantially as a result of the lower tax rate. He was proved entirely correct. Revenues rose considerably, almost trebling in fact, and greatly exceeded official predictions.


What about the impact of other factors? did anything else happen in Ireland during that period that might have caused tax revenues to grow?

2.2 The Swedish evidence
Swedish capital gains taxes varied considerably in the early 1990s, providing useful evidence for the relationship between tax rates and revenue. The Swedish tax reform package introduced in 1991 taxed ordinary income and capital income separately, with capital gains taxed at a rate of 30%. In 1992 the newly elected non-socialist government reduced the capital gains tax-rate to 25% and it was then further reduced to 12.5% in 1994. Uniform 30% taxes were reinstated when the Social democratic party came back to power in 1995.

Professors Sven-Olaf Daunfeldt, Ulrika Praski-Stahlgren and Niklas Rudholm of the University of Gavle studied the effect of these rate changes during the period 1993-1995 and concluded that a 10% increase in capital gains tax reduces the number of realisations of capital gains by 8.7% and the realised amount, given the decision to realise, by an additional 1.9%.2


Ok, so people hold on to their assets because they don't like paying taxes. Did Ric Romero move to Sweden?

2.3 The US evidence
Estimates by US experts on the revenue effects of CGT reductions all agree that increasing CGT rates significantly damages the economy, although the estimates of precisely how much harm it will cause differ. A 1988 paper by
Professor Lawrence Lindsey in 1988 concluded "in the long run about 5.4 percent more capital gains will be realized for every one percentage point reduction in the capital gains tax rate."4


Let's see about those those numbers:

$1M in cap gains at the current 15% tax rate = $150,000 in taxes.
$1,054,000 in cap gains at 14% tax rate = $147,000 in taxes.

Where's the increase in revenue?

2.5 The UK evidence
In 1988 CGT rates were increased by ten points from 30% to 40%. Revenues fell dramatically, more than halving from £2,175m in 87-88 to £976m in 90-91 and further still to £606m in 92-93.


See the above comment concerning Ireland. Could there be anything else impacting those revenues?

Flawed analysis is flawed.
 
2012-01-25 10:57:12 AM
Cinaed: Any consideration for other economic forces? No?

Please bring that up the next time someone claims the post WW2 boom times were a result or tied directly to a 90% top rate.
 
2012-01-25 10:57:35 AM
Mike_LowELL: The solution is to change the "tax" to a "reward". That is, the government gives people money for creating capital gains. The federal deficit can be eliminated in six months if we do this. I have run the numbers by the Georgia Republican Operative for Personal Equity and they claim the numbers are better than anything Taxbongo could come up with. Hilarious how I can sit behind a computer and do more good for the country in five minutes than Taxbongo has done in fifty years of being a Kenyan socialist. Stupid libs.

G.R.O.P.E.?
 
2012-01-25 10:57:44 AM
GAT_00: Well I'm sure an analysis from something called the Adam Smith Institute has no bias.

As a historian I actually find it kind of maddening, considering that Adam Smith advocated equitable tax policies that limited the influence of wealth by the most direct means available; taxation. This modern portrait of him as a 100% lassez faire Austrian is wildly inaccurate.
 
2012-01-25 10:58:02 AM
And you know admins, there's nothing funny, snarky, interesting or ironic about this link or the headline. It's just ideological shiat. People don't come to Fark wallow in some shiatty pseudo-intellectual English blog for neoliberal hipsters.
 
2012-01-25 10:58:34 AM
Yeah, I'm generally on these boards defending the capital gains and dividend tax rate (it is an 'extra' tax on top of the corporate income tax). People who pay such taxes aren't getting a break.

But in regard to TFA, correlation does not equal causation and its easy to cherry pick data to support your conclusion. Naturally, if you say rates are going down on Jan 1, people are going to hold on to gains until the new year to take advantage of the new rates. When they sell en masse in January, it's going to make it look like the lower rates raised revenue, when it just deferred it from the prior year. Also, Ireland is an anomaly - a small tax haven that benefited from companies dumping their business there for tax reasons and from incredible european aid.

Raising cap gain rates to 20%, where they were pre-Bush, would obviously result in higher capital gains taxes over the long term.
 
2012-01-25 10:58:57 AM
Speaker2Animals: This has been thoroughly debunked by Krugman and others, subby.

Crap. Should have refreshed, instead of wasting 5 minutes writing that rebuttal.
 
2012-01-25 10:59:29 AM
Mike_LowELL: The solution is to change the "tax" to a "reward". That is, the government gives people money for creating capital gains. The federal deficit can be eliminated in six months if we do this. I have run the numbers by the Georgia Republican Operative for Personal Equity and they claim the numbers are better than anything Taxbongo could come up with. Hilarious how I can sit behind a computer and do more good for the country in five minutes than Taxbongo has done in fifty years of being a Kenyan socialist. Stupid libs.

Well, if anyone has the touch needed for goosing the economic, it's GROPE.
 
2012-01-25 10:59:40 AM
In 2012? The Laffer Curve? Really?
Embarrassing.
 
2012-01-25 11:01:29 AM
So, if we can see that cutting capital gains rates on the rich makes the rich retardedly richer, while not growing the economy at all, how does one argue that we shouldn't raise them? Even if they're getting double-taxed, you're still making enough off them that your income is inflating like a balloon
 
2012-01-25 11:01:56 AM
eraser8

GAT_00: Well I'm sure an analysis from something called the Adam Smith Institute has no bias.

I suspect the people at the Adam Smith Institute would actually hate many of the things Adam Smith had to say. Like this: "It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."


From my understanding, and its been several years, Smiths taxation system on the wealthy was based on consumption taxes levied against luxury goods, while common necessities had no taxes. I believe he supported a flat tax on wages and rents, but opposed taxing wealth generating investments. He believed in a limited government with clear and concise tax system (no deductions, no changing rates). Again, its been a few years, but I think your quote misrepresents his taxation views while supporting the current call for increased taxation on wealthly individuals.
 
2012-01-25 11:06:03 AM
Sigh. We've covered this countless times before. When you change the tax rate on something like capital gains, there is always a short term affect on revenues. If you lower the rate, you may see a spike in revenues as people cash in to take advantage of the lower rate. If you raise the rate, you may see a dip in revenues as people hold on to their investment to avoid paying the higher rate. However, if you lower the rate and don't change it, eventually you will see a drop in revenues. AND if you raise the rate and don't change it, you will eventually see higher revenues, since people will have to sell the assets at some point.
 
2012-01-25 11:10:31 AM
From a 1988 CBO report:
"simulations using the estimated behavioral responses still show a net revenue increase from the 1986 act [raising capital gains taxes]. They also indicate that lowering the top rate on long-term capital gains to 15 percent would result in a net revenue loss."

Link (new window)
 
2012-01-25 11:11:42 AM
Cinaed derpdeederp: Its kind of like the Healthcare reform forecasts, you can get it to say what ever you want by controlling the underlying assumptions.

For projections, yes. But those aren't projections in this little piece of tripe.
When one goes with 'historical' data to support a position, it's all about cutting out data that doesn't jive with the desired rationale.

And just as a matter of course... one is suppose to cite the source of information. I don't see any reference to the various reports, data sets, etc where they would getting their numbers that they are so happily pointing at.


To tell you the truth, I didnt read the article. But from my experience working in the field, most analysis are developed from a theoretical perspective that determines what variables to use, how to normalize data and develop the model. I grouped both an economic analysis and forecasting methodology togethers since, from my experience, they both use mutlivariate linear regressions to determine the variation or expected outcomes.
 
2012-01-25 11:12:05 AM
derpdeederp: I believe he supported a flat tax on wages and rents, but opposed taxing wealth generating investments

He did, but he also advocated a method of keeping things fair, by large taxes on land ownership, since in his time the rich were the only ones who owned the land.
 
2012-01-25 11:12:55 AM
Heron: GAT_00: Well I'm sure an analysis from something called the Adam Smith Institute has no bias.

As a historian I actually find it kind of maddening, considering that Adam Smith advocated equitable tax policies that limited the influence of wealth by the most direct means available; taxation. This modern portrait of him as a 100% lassez faire Austrian is wildly inaccurate.


Unfortunately, it's no use pointing this out to people. I think it's because they are exceedingly self-interested and have sought out the ideology that will allow them to maintain that laser focus on themselves. Once that's done, it's practically impossible to change their minds without systematically dismantling the moral underpinnings of the ideology. That, unfortunately, takes a lot of time and effort. My biggest success on that front was questioning them on whether we morally need to give health care to everyone who needs it and then using their affirmative answer to basically close off every avenue except for universal health care. And even now I'm not sure if they fully agree or were just humoring me.
 
2012-01-25 11:15:54 AM
Mike_LowELL: The solution is to change the "tax" to a "reward". That is, the government gives people money for creating capital gains. The federal deficit can be eliminated in six months if we do this. I have run the numbers by the Georgia Republican Operative for Personal Equity and they claim the numbers are better than anything Taxbongo could come up with. Hilarious how I can sit behind a computer and do more good for the country in five minutes than Taxbongo has done in fifty years of being a Kenyan socialist. Stupid libs.

All excellent points as usual, but you left out an important fact: Taxbongo isn't just a Kenyan socialist, he's a Secret Muslim Kenyan socialist.
 
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