There was a story on this something like 3 months ago on Fark.

Halal and Kosher are essentially the same Re: baked goods

This sounds like a Curb your Enthusiasm episode.

Well even though it might draw a fatwa on myself to mention this, the two follow a lot of the same rules.

Mugato: Well even though it might draw a fatwa on myself to mention this, the two follow a lot of the same rules.

To paraphrase Sarah Silverman: "They're all brown and pushy."

rocinante721: Halal and Kosher are essentially the same Re: baked goods

Yes, the new owners meantion that in the article, and also that they are seeking a Jewish rabbi to give supervision and blessing. Here's hoping they find one.

Repeat is still Repeat

As for keeping the bakery kosher, Ali says, "Kosher and halal is very, very close, like brother and sister, maybe twins."

Not so, no. In fact, not at all. Maybe maybe you could say that Kashrut and lehavdil ben kodesh l'chol Halal are like, a picture of twice removed cousins, which was photocopied and then that photocopy was photocopied and so on 10 times.

There are a few vague similarities, but there are so much differences that it's mostly superficial on the level of 'well it's dietary law and they both slaughter animals with a knife'

Seriously, outside of the fact that we both don't eat pigs, that animals considered kosher were said to be halal as well, and some non-kosher animals were considered haram, the similarities pretty much end there.

There are major differences in terms of supervision, slaughter, various laws, what animals are actually kosher or not, other areas (such as alcohol or shellfish) are completely different for the most part, and so on.

They are superficially alike, yes, but are also incredibly different. That's like saying that an orange and the moon are alike. Well, they are both round I guess, and have a weirdly shaped texture and infested with reptilian lifeforms, but to claim they have twin is just incredibly wrong.

Ali and Shah say the only thing remaining is official kosher supervision and certification. They are looking for a rabbi to bless and supervise.

I really really really really hate when they say that. Kashrut has nothing to do with Rabbis 'blessing' the food. Nothing at all. It's not what makes food kosher. It's not required in any way whatsoever.

----------------

Now that I'm done sperging about this, well that's a very nice gesture, and good luck to them, I hope it becomes successful.

rocinante721: Halal and Kosher are essentially the same Re: baked goods

Muslims require Jewish supervision for it to be acceptable?

Tatsuma: rocinante721: Halal and Kosher are essentially the same Re: baked goods

Muslims require Jewish supervision for it to be acceptable?

Most observant Jews I know in NYC will eat if halal, so certification is pretty much moot.

rocinante721: Tatsuma: rocinante721: Halal and Kosher are essentially the same Re: baked goods

Muslims require Jewish supervision for it to be acceptable?

Most observant Jews I know in NYC will eat if halal, so certification is pretty much moot.

In fact, isn't it taught that if a Jewish person cannot find kosher food that they are supposed to look for a halal shop?

You'd think someone like him would know that.

rocinante721: Most observant Jews I know in NYC will eat if halal, so certification is pretty much moot.

Yeah either

1) you just made that up
2) your friends are not observant
3) your friends are lying to you about being observant

Sorry, nothing else makes sense. There is not a single halachic authority who will allow eating Halal food if it's not certified kosher as well.

Eating Halal food is just the same as eating pork which is just the same as eating kosher milk mixed with kosher meat. Absolutely, 100% forbidden.

Someone who does that is not 'observant' in any definition of the word.

Oh and while we're at it, let's debunk another myth:

Just because a product is kosher doesn't mean that it's automatically halal. While it's true that a lot of Muslims, if they do not find halal products, will actually buy kosher food as a replacement (or sometimes kosher meat as well), the fact is that there are products considered kosher that would be considered haram and thus forbidden for Muslims (eg alcohol).

And the opposite is not true. In no circumstances are halal products considered kosher, unless they were also issued kosher certification.

I'd go all jihadi to get a decent Jewish deli down here. Too Jays is swell and all, but it's not the same.

Tatsuma: That's like saying that an orange and the moona tangerine are alike.

Oh, Jesus Christ.

Tatsuma: Seriously, outside of the fact that we both don't eat pigs, that animals considered kosher were said to be halal as well, and some non-kosher animals were considered haram, the similarities pretty much end there.

There are major differences in terms of supervision, slaughter, various laws, what animals are actually kosher or not, other areas (such as alcohol or shellfish) are completely different for the most part, and so on.

You realize this is a bakery, right?

Babwa Wawa: Tatsuma: Seriously, outside of the fact that we both don't eat pigs, that animals considered kosher were said to be halal as well, and some non-kosher animals were considered haram, the similarities pretty much end there.

There are major differences in terms of supervision, slaughter, various laws, what animals are actually kosher or not, other areas (such as alcohol or shellfish) are completely different for the most part, and so on.

You realize this is a bakery, right?

Chinese bakeries have meat and stuff in their pastries. But observant Jews only eat from there on Christmas.

Babwa Wawa: You realize this is a bakery, right?

So what?

Again, there are many differences when it comes to Kashrut and Halal, and that includes bakeries. There would be kosher products that would certainly not be halal, and certain products that could qualify as halal that would not qualify as kosher in any way.

Not only that, but for bread to be considered kosher to begin with, at the very least the oven needs to be lit up by a observant Jew in the first place, and for most of us, we will only eat if it's actually surpervised from beginning to end by an observant Jew.

But, but 9/11!! Muslim!! Obama!! Socialism!! Twin towers!! Never forget!!

Dammit, where's Limbaugh when you need a good scare? I sure hope he gets back from the Oxy run soon, we can't have this!!

Tatsuma: Oh and while we're at it, let's debunk another myth:

Just because a product is kosher doesn't mean that it's automatically halal. While it's true that a lot of Muslims, if they do not find halal products, will actually buy kosher food as a replacement (or sometimes kosher meat as well), the fact is that there are products considered kosher that would be considered haram and thus forbidden for Muslims (eg alcohol).

And the opposite is not true. In no circumstances are halal products considered kosher, unless they were also issued kosher certification.

This jibes with what a good friend of mine told me when we were talking about
the finer points of halal food: kosher food would be OK for him to eat if he
couldn't get halal, but they are not the same.

/As a gentile, I take both kosher and halal meats as signs that they are good quality.

Tatsuma: Babwa Wawa: You realize this is a bakery, right?

So what?

Again, there are many differences when it comes to Kashrut and Halal, and that includes bakeries. There would be kosher products that would certainly not be halal, and certain products that could qualify as halal that would not qualify as kosher in any way.

Not only that, but for bread to be considered kosher to begin with, at the very least the oven needs to be lit up by a observant Jew in the first place, and for most of us, we will only eat if it's actually surpervised from beginning to end by an observant Jew.

What a giant pain in the ass for some freaking bread, all in the name of an imaginary creature that also causes grown men to spit on and curse at little girls on their way to school.

Kudos to you.

/the same goes for most religions

bhcompy: Leave it to Tatsuma to ruin a feel good story over semantics

Seriously. It's a nice little story. No need to launch into the finer points of religious dietary law.

danvon: Tatsuma: words

Thanks for the education. I now realize that religious dietary laws are even more stupid than I once thought.

Careful. He'll brand you an anti-Semite and sic the Mossad on you!

tl;dr for Tats' screed: "It's not Kosher unless we say it's Kosher, even if it technically fits all criteria for being Kosher."

So it's just pedantry for the sake of pedantry.

RoyBatty: But my question is, is there a non-null and meaningful intersection of products that could supply a reasonable, nutritious, mostly healthy, and varied diet?

So for example, just as most Kosher restaurants I am familiar with are either milk xor meat, a Kosher & Halal vegetarian or milk based bakery, and a Kosher & Halal grocery (fruits, vegetables, dairy products) seem doable, and profitable.

Well in New York I was mostly shopping in Kosher & Halal groceries, and in many other cities with both sizeable Jewish and Muslim populations where we tend to live next to each others.

In groceries, they'd sell kosher milk and meat. You can't cook them together, you can sell them together (as separate items).

DjangoStonereaver: /As a gentile, I take both kosher and halal meats as signs that they are good quality.

Sadly, not always true, but more likely to be of better quality due to regular inspections yes.

Bondith: Tatsuma
Not only that, but for bread to be considered kosher to begin with, at the very least the oven needs to be lit up by a observant Jew in the first place, and for most of us, we will only eat if it's actually surpervised from beginning to end by an observant Jew.

Wow, and I thought I was fussy.

I respect your dedication to your chosen field (and I respect you for shiatting on the jackasses that spat on that 8-year-old), but I cannot take what you believe in seriously. Still, you're not insisting that I (or anyone else) follow your silly rules, so there's that.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this.

The jackasses that spit on the girls have just as valid a belief system as Tatsuma. In the jackasses eyes, and in Tatsusma's eye's they're both right and justified in their opinions and beliefs. So while it's great Tats doesn't spit on little girls, he'd do it in a heartbeat if his particular flavor of imaginary friend wanted him to.