What's really sad is they've spent two years and billions of euro's attempting to prevent something that has been inevitable from the beginning. Would it have been better to send Greece on their way back then so the funds could have done more to rebuild the country?

"Be warned daleks; you have declared war the cybermen."

"This is not war. This is pest control!!!"

"We are five million cybermen. How many are you."

"four."

"You would destroy the cybermen with only four?"

"We would destroy the cybermen with only one!!!! Cybermen are superior in only one way."

"And what is that?"

"The ability to die!!"

OK, so I've long figured that someone would try for a United States of Europe (though almost certainly not with that name) by 2050. Not necessarily that the effort would succeed, but that someone would try for it. I wasn't expecting a bid to come this soon, though.

This is not to say that I don't think Greece needs it: either that, or to leave the Euro zone. The civic culture seems to be fundamentally broken in ways that politicians elsewhere often claim their opponents exhibit but in truth happens only rarely. Barring an actual revolution, that's the sort of thing that takes a generation or more to fix. The revolution isn't coming, and neither is a generation capable of fixing things, and even if the latter were forthcoming Greece doesn't have long enough to wait for it: a reckoning is going to come much sooner than that.

The Euro zone should amputate the limb to save the main body. Greece will rebuild in time, and hopefully wiser for its mistakes.

Millennium: OK, so I've long figured that someone would try for a United States of Europe (though almost certainly not with that name) by 2050. Not necessarily that the effort would succeed, but that someone would try for it. I wasn't expecting a bid to come this soon, though.

This is not to say that I don't think Greece needs it: either that, or to leave the Euro zone. The civic culture seems to be fundamentally broken in ways that politicians elsewhere often claim their opponents exhibit but in truth happens only rarely. Barring an actual revolution, that's the sort of thing that takes a generation or more to fix. The revolution isn't coming, and neither is a generation capable of fixing things, and even if the latter were forthcoming Greece doesn't have long enough to wait for it: a reckoning is going to come much sooner than that.

The Euro zone should amputate the limb to save the main body. Greece will rebuild in time, and hopefully wiser for its mistakes.

I'm certainly no expert in global finance, but from the sounds of it, some of the mind-boggling stunts pulled by the Greek government should arguably result in military action against them.

She could pass for Bill Belichick's sister.

She looks uptight?
Has anyone tried to give her a back rub?

Gergesa: We are five million cybermen. How many are you."

"four."

"You would destroy the cybermen with only four?"

"We would destroy the cybermen with only one!!!! Cybermen are superior in only one way."

Greece cooked their books and should have never been allowed in the EU in the first place. They need to be kicked out ASAP.

/Same goes for the other PIIGS

Tyrone Slothrop: Greece cooked their books and should have never been allowed in the EU in the first place. They need to be kicked out ASAP.

/Same goes for the other PIIGS

There are three reasons why Greece was allowed to join the EU.

1. The idea of Greece, rather than the reality. When you ask people what's great about Greece, everything is literally ancient history. Great, so 3000 years ago they were the shizzle, but they haven't done jack shiat since. Greece is the 60-year-old lecher driving a leased BMW convertible who's been a loser most of his life but still thinks he's cool because he was the homecoming king in high school.

2. WW2/Cold War legacy. Greece was allowed to join the EU because it was a NATO member. Greece was allowed to join NATO more to deny it to the Russians than for any merits it had on its own. In fact, pretty much everything that's been afforded to Greece in the last 200 years, from independence to the current bailouts, has not been about Greece itself but rather a means to another end.

3. A lot of people in EU countries like to vacation in Greece.

Gergesa: "We would destroy the cybermen with only one!!!! Cybermen are superior in only one way."

Worst. Fanfic. Ever.

BizarreMan: What's really sad is they've spent two years and billions of euro's attempting to prevent something that has been inevitable from the beginning. Would it have been better to send Greece on their way back then so the funds could have done more to rebuild the country?


Not if you are a banker.

jvl: Gergesa: "We would destroy the cybermen with only one!!!! Cybermen are superior in only one way."

Worst. Fanfic. Ever.

You do realize that I am quoting the tv show right? Is my sarcasm meter malfunctioning?

Gergesa: jvl: Gergesa: "We would destroy the cybermen with only one!!!! Cybermen are superior in only one way."

Worst. Fanfic. Ever.

You do realize that I am quoting the tv show right? Is my sarcasm meter malfunctioning?

You're both spot on. And that's why that show should be allowed to die quietly. It is its own indulgent fanfic. And that's terrible.

Gergesa: jvl: Gergesa: "We would destroy the cybermen with only one!!!! Cybermen are superior in only one way."

Worst. Fanfic. Ever.

You do realize that I am quoting the tv show right? Is my sarcasm meter malfunctioning?

It was not sarcasm. I'm really happy we don't have to suffer through those kinds of scripts anymore. It made me want to kick the TV.

Tell Me How My Blog Tastes: I don't know what the rest of the thread is about, but this is just proof that maybe, just maybe, cutting government spending in the face of a depression isn't the best idea (you know, like Keynes would have told the Germans, as if they would have listened).

When you have budgets as screwed up as the Greeks you will have austerity forced on you at some point.

You can do it yourself on your own terms and ease in to it or you can have it forced on you by all the credit suddenly drying up. But either way you end up running out of fictitious money at some point.

/or they could pay their taxes but that's a pretty extreme solution.

Greece will simply be the first to fall.

Countries like Canada and Denmark may fall last, but they will fall, too.

The really interesting part will be whether the US or France falls first.

Oh, and you know who else dreamed of German Cybermen, subby?

beta_plus: Greece will simply be the first to fall.

Countries like Canada and Denmark may fall last, but they will fall, too.

The really interesting part will be whether the US or France falls first.

Fall to where?

Nadie_AZ: Hm. Maybe they aren't really broken. Maybe they just can't fit into the mold other places and people want for them.

True.

Granted, that mold being one of "everyone pays their fair share of taxes, no more gross/massive lying" and "no more corruption and bribery at all levels". Success and humility, basically.
I agree that some countries, governments and/or populaces can't fit that mold or even attempt to in any capacity.

The issue with Greece is basically a long term negotiation. Everyone knows the rest of the Eurozone is going to bail them out, but it's brinksmanship to see how much the banks will take, how much the Greek people will deal with and how much will actually come from other governments. The amount of total Greek debt isn't that high. Portugal was just in a shiatty place and a victim of some seriously long term growth issues, Ireland made a really stupid bank guarantee that shows the need for tighter EU bank bank regulations and continuity between countries. Greeks are just farking flouting the system and expecting to have no consequences because it worked with the drachma, all they had to do was make it worth less and instantly more Germans would go on vacation there since it was cheaper. Well now their old habits have caught up to them and they have to make up for it by running a deficit of zero and take a huge quality of living cut. That said, very few people will mention that life there after a 30% cut in quality of life is still way better than pre Euro days.

Also, Germany wants to drag this out as long as humanly possible to keep the Euro artificially week and their exports stronger.

Tyrone Slothrop: Greece cooked their books and should have never been allowed in the EU in the first place. They need to be kicked out ASAP.

/Same goes for the other PIIGS

Spain should be kicked out for being one of the few that not only followed the rules, but went beyond that?

Spain has problems for the same reason the US housing market crashed. Their economy grew, and the population took loans they couldn't repay when the economy crashed.

Merkel is praising Italy for their impressive reforms, they should be kicked?

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No dude, I am sure you're a tough guy, but you can't compare Spain/Italy with Greece. The latter which should indeed be kicked.

Lupine Chemist: The issue with Greece is basically a long term negotiation. Everyone knows the rest of the Eurozone is going to bail them out, but it's brinksmanship to see how much the banks will take, how much the Greek people will deal with and how much will actually come from other governments.

If everyone knows the above to be fact, then please explain to me why the yield on the Greek March bond is now 1100%. That effectively means that if you purchase 10.000USD worth of these bonds today, you'll get 30.000USD back in less than 2 months.

Any deal Greece makes with the banks does not apply to you personally, so why is the yield that high, if "everyone knows"?


Hedge funds are buying the bonds up, because they probably figure at worst the Greek government will just make a law that makes the deal with the banks apply to all bonds, and with that high a yield you'll get 1:1.

spawn73: If everyone knows the above to be fact, then please explain to me why the yield on the Greek March bond is now 1100%. That effectively means that if you purchase 10.000USD worth of these bonds today, you'll get 30.000USD back in less than 2 months.

Because private bondholders have already privately agreed to take a massive cut on that. This effectively puts them in default status without actually have to declare it a default. Germany itself has the funds to just buy all the Greek debt and resell it at a 100% loss. The thing is, this Euro project really is a good thing for everyone (although the Greeks are moving backwards, they are still way better off than had they just been miserable the whole time)

Lupine Chemist: spawn73: If everyone knows the above to be fact, then please explain to me why the yield on the Greek March bond is now 1100%. That effectively means that if you purchase 10.000USD worth of these bonds today, you'll get 30.000USD back in less than 2 months.

Because private bondholders have already privately agreed to take a massive cut on that. This effectively puts them in default status without actually have to declare it a default. Germany itself has the funds to just buy all the Greek debt and resell it at a 100% loss. The thing is, this Euro project really is a good thing for everyone (although the Greeks are moving backwards, they are still way better off than had they just been miserable the whole time)

Apparently hedge funds don't feel they have entered into any agreements, as they´re purchasing theese bonds now. And AFAIK, neither would you or I if we purchased some tomorrow.

But of course the risk is obvious.

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I don't know whether Greece is better of. The Euro is grossly overvalued for them, so it's hard for them to export anything, whilst imports are cheap, and undervalued for countries like Germany (ie. for Germany the Euro is artificially low compared to what it would have been valued at if certain nations weren't dragging it down).

Well, yeah, Greece is better of for joining the EU, no doubt there, but for joining the Euro? To me they seem totally farked right now, and going back to the Drachmar just means that everyone looses their savings, can't repay loans made in Euros (well, that or accept that every single Greek bank goes bankrupt... Nah, who're we kidding, they will anyway).


Sucks to be Greece IMHO.

I thought it was pronounced gyros.