I don't care what TFA says. I'm still going to try to live off arsenic.

Damn.

Bio major from UBC. That entire school is a god damn buzzkill.

And a resounding DUH was heard throughout the world. Thanks to RRResearch, who finally provided the evidence that was needed in the first paper.

No can't has arsenate DNA, not yours.

No arsenic-based life?

The arsenic deniers obviously haven't watched enough Dr. Oz...otherwise they'd know arsenic is everywhere, and it's after their children!

Good, maybe we can go back to paying attention to the REAL big news that was announced that same week: Oxygen was found on a moon of Saturn.

Since the arsenic studies in question were several years old by the time it made the news, it was a pretty obvious misdirection attempt.

J. Frank Parnell: Good, maybe we can go back to paying attention to the REAL big news that was announced that same week: Oxygen was found on a moon of Saturn.

Got a more reliable source than the Daily Fail?

Oh, was thinking this was about Napoleon.

J. Frank Parnell: Good, maybe we can go back to paying attention to the REAL big news that was announced that same week: Oxygen was found on a moon of Saturn.

Since the arsenic studies in question were several years old by the time it made the news, it was a pretty obvious misdirection attempt.

Someone was trying to rain on the parade for 'oxygen exists on Saturn moon'? What's to gain? It's not like X-Prize is planning to award a privateer money for a condo startup on the ring any time soon.

anfrind: Got a more reliable source than the Daily Fail?

If you really wanted to find one you'd have googled it yourself.

I'm not surprised you didn't hear about it, there were news items about that finding quietly added to many media sites, but they were quickly drowned out by "OMG ARSENIC BASED ALIEN LIFE. No, wait. It's just in a pool of water on Earth. And this study was done years ago"

boomm: Someone was trying to rain on the parade for 'oxygen exists on Saturn moon'? What's to gain? It's not like X-Prize is planning to award a privateer money for a condo startup on the ring any time soon.

My theory is that dreaming up fantastical tales about arsenic based life keeps the idea of life existing elsewhere in the realm of bizarre fantasy, and the Saturn announcement was a little too close to home for some peoples tastes.

J. Frank Parnell: boomm: Someone was trying to rain on the parade for 'oxygen exists on Saturn moon'? What's to gain? It's not like X-Prize is planning to award a privateer money for a condo startup on the ring any time soon.

My theory is that dreaming up fantastical tales about arsenic based life keeps the idea of life existing elsewhere in the realm of bizarre fantasy, and the Saturn announcement was a little too close to home for some peoples tastes.

Life existing where the oxygen density is 5 trillion times less than on earth seems more fanciful than arsenic life.

J. Frank Parnell: boomm: Someone was trying to rain on the parade for 'oxygen exists on Saturn moon'? What's to gain? It's not like X-Prize is planning to award a privateer money for a condo startup on the ring any time soon.

My theory is that dreaming up fantastical tales about arsenic based life keeps the idea of life existing elsewhere in the realm of bizarre fantasy, and the Saturn announcement was a little too close to home for some peoples tastes.

You do realize that Rhea's atmosphere is nothing like Earth's right? Earth's atmosphere is mainly nitrogen, not oxygen. The announcement is basically: "We found a reasonably abundant element ... IN SPACE! ONNA MOON!" Finding Rhea's atmosphere was composed mainly of Radon would be major news; this just means every idea we have of elemental distribution is pretty much correct. The arsenic thing is about something we thought couldn't happen (and might not, depending on how the research pans out)

Oxygen being found elsewhere within our very own solar system, no matter how small an amount, is a massive leap towards the possibility of life, just like that which exists here, being common throughout the universe.

J. Frank Parnell: Good, maybe we can go back to paying attention to the REAL big news that was announced that same week: Oxygen was found on a moon of Saturn.

Since the arsenic studies in question were several years old by the time it made the news, it was a pretty obvious misdirection attempt.

A misdirection attempt by whom? And more importantly, why? What purpose would anyone have to downplay such a finding?

J. Frank Parnell: Oxygen being found elsewhere within our very own solar system, no matter how small an amount, is a massive leap towards the possibility of life, just like that which exists here, being common throughout the universe.

Even in middle school decades ago we knew that if ice were found on Mars, the mission plan to put an x-naut on Mars would be completely revised. "Land there, turn on mining equipment." vs "Land there, filter your pee."

I know there is a battle between the spacy final frontier nerds and the soggy last frontier nerds on which way to look for new life. I just don't believe Lake Mono was a timed news release in that battle.

if arsenic could be incorporated into DNA it would've been discovered shortly after DNA was discovered.

J. Frank Parnell: Oxygen being found elsewhere within our very own solar system, no matter how small an amount, is a massive leap towards the possibility of life, just like that which exists here, being common throughout the universe.

No, it's not. It's confirmation that ionizing radiation can lead to the creation of molecules that are unstable under ambient conditions. But of course we already knew that, so it's little more than a curiosity. A few picograms of O₂ per cubic meter, in the absence of pretty much all the other conditions required for Earth-like life, is meaningless.

/Earth's atmosphere was devoid of O₂ until photosynthesis started.
//Which is fortunate, because free oxygen would have killed the early chemotrophs.

Seems appropriate:

(no) Life in Mono - Link (new window)

Neondistraction: A misdirection attempt by whom? And more importantly, why? What purpose would anyone have to downplay such a finding?

The same people who downplay the idea that many of these different species are visiting us. Sure, you laugh, because you've been conditioned to dismiss the possibility, by them. There are people who believe, whether it's true or not, that if the public found out we really aren't so special, and are primitive compared to not just one but many other races, it would cause chaos and a breakdown of society. Hell, people would probably start worshipping those advanced races as gods and saviors, and it wouldn't be the first time that happened.

boomm: I know there is a battle between the spacy final frontier nerds and the soggy last frontier nerds on which way to look for new life. I just don't believe Lake Mono was a timed news release in that battle.

Well, it clearly was timed, for whatever reason, because the arsenic study was old and long put aside, yet there's a two week media blitz about it for no apparent reason years later. If you can come up with a better reason that happened i'm all ears.

I think there could be some methodology problems with Rosie's research, but I'll wait until they've compiled all of their data and submitted it for publication before I make my full assessment. I'll also wait for the peer review to finish.

Ah, yes. The "arsenic-based" life forms. We have dismissed those claims.

Professor Science: /Earth's atmosphere was devoid of O2 until photosynthesis started.
//Which is fortunate, because free oxygen would have killed the early chemotrophs.

Did you read the article? Not just oxygen was found there, but carbon dioxide, making it a very real possibility we're dealing with photosynthesis occurring there, even if on a small level. It wasn't just one particle of oxygen they found which randomly appeared by chance, was unstable, then fell apart.

Anyway, i've said about all i care to on this. People who refuse to even consider anything i've said will continue to refuse it no matter what is put before them, and are good examples of why some people think we can't handle the truth, but objective minds may find it thought provoking.

Toshiro Mifune's Letter Opener: Beerguy: Someone is showing his or her age. Am I right Subby??

Not subby, but...

*DO DO DO DO, DO DO*

CHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGE!

No! Not the Melbourne method, please! Two hours! And when it was over, what? The fellow in Melbourne was just as dead as the fellow in South Bend!"

One of my favorite films featuring Peter Lorre. Fun fact, he hung around with Bela Lugosi and Vincent Price. At Bela Lugosi's funeral, when Bela was lying in the coffin, Peter Lorre says to Vincent Price "Should we drive a stake through his heart, just in case?"

That's perhaps the best remark at any funeral ever.

legion_of_doo: Ah, yes. The "arsenic-based" life forms. We have dismissed those claims.

But what about silicon-based life forms?

"I'm a doctor, not a bricklayer!"

J. Frank Parnell: Well, it clearly was timed, for whatever reason, because the arsenic study was old and long put aside, yet there's a two week media blitz about it for no apparent reason years later. If you can come up with a better reason that happened i'm all ears.

I am more of the impression that it was timed based on a small group's or individual's need for self-validation at that time. Nothing larger than that. It could be as simple as being the general period for which Journal and grant entries are due. There are plenty of reasons to dig up old material and make a pronouncement like this, and let it be sorted out in the reviews.

But I like a good conspiracy theory. And you have hit on my favorite kind. The kind that are leaderless and unorchestrated. Where it's just a general cause which coalesces into the handless actions of the zeitgeist.

No....did you? An Arsenic and Old Lace reference? That was a great movie! I need to watch it again soon.

I got mono from a girl at a lake once.

Or, maybe it was from the steamed hams.

/Either or

Gyrfalcon: legion_of_doo: Ah, yes. The "arsenic-based" life forms. We have dismissed those claims.

But what about the elderberry wine?

Your father smelt of elderberries ;)

J. Frank Parnell: Neondistraction: A misdirection attempt by whom? And more importantly, why? What purpose would anyone have to downplay such a finding?

The same people who downplay the idea that many of these different species are visiting us. Sure, you laugh, because you've been conditioned to dismiss the possibility, by them. There are people who believe, whether it's true or not, that if the public found out we really aren't so special, and are primitive compared to not just one but many other races, it would cause chaos and a breakdown of society. Hell, people would probably start worshipping those advanced races as gods and saviors, and it wouldn't be the first time that happened.
.

I'm not getting into a debate about the existence of extra terrestrial life, intelligent or otherwise. I personally don't believe we've been visited by alien life, but if we had I don't have any trouble believing the government would attempt to keep it under wraps. That makes sense on at least some level. There is logic to it.

That being said, we are not talking about discovering something like alien life, or a large asteroid on a collision course with earth, or any other sort of life-shattering revelation that might send lesser-minded folk into a panic. They found very small amounts of oxygen on one of Saturn's moons. Why would anyone want to cover that up? The scientific community practically pissed themselves when they found evidence of water on Mars, and they probably trampled a few lab assistants in the rush to yell it from the mountain tops, so to speak. And it's been a while since I took chemistry, but I'm pretty sure water has oxygen in it. So why cover up finding oxygen on a moon? What perceptions would that be shattering? I just don't see the logic in it. I think maybe you need to adjust your tinfoil.

J. Frank Parnell:
The same people who downplay the idea that many of these different species are visiting us. Sure, you laugh, because you've been conditioned to dismiss the possibility, by them. There are people who believe, whether it's true or not, that if the public found out we really aren't so special, and are primitive compared to not just one but many other races, it would cause chaos and a breakdown of society. Hell, people would probably start worshipping those advanced races as gods and saviors, and it wouldn't be the first time that happened.


Mr. Parnell, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

J. Frank Parnell: Professor Science: /Earth's atmosphere was devoid of O2 until photosynthesis started.
//Which is fortunate, because free oxygen would have killed the early chemotrophs.

Did you read the article? Not just oxygen was found there, but carbon dioxide, making it a very real possibility we're dealing with photosynthesis occurring there, even if on a small level. It wasn't just one particle of oxygen they found which randomly appeared by chance, was unstable, then fell apart.

I did. There's carbon up there too. And gee, what do you think might happen if you ionize a bunch of carbon and a bunch of oxygen? Maybe you'll get various molecules composed of either or both? Hell, there's bound to be some hydrogen too, so you'll even get traces of more complicated organic compounds. Also, the surface of that moon stays consistently below 100 K. It's tough to run photosynthesis without liquids.

Anyway, i've said about all i care to on this. People who refuse to even consider anything i've said will continue to refuse it no matter what is put before them, and are good examples of why some people think we can't handle the truth, but objective minds may find it thought provoking.

And while I wish I could say that this is so stunningly stupid that it could not possibly have been said sincerely, and congratulate you on a fair-to-middling troll, well, Poe's Law and all that.

ecor1: And a resounding DUH was heard throughout the world. Thanks to RRResearch, who finally provided the evidence that was needed in the first paper.

No can't has arsenate DNA, not yours.

What Arsenal DNA may look like:

I don't see why both sides of the issue isn't happy about this. This is real science: person makes a claim. Person and other test claim. Claim shown to be wrong. That's science. Not every claim by a scientist has to be right. It just has to be clearly stated so that others can re-create the state of when the claim was made, and make determinations and observations on whether the claim can be shown to be correct or not.

It's not a mistake to make a wrong claim.