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(Boulder Daily Camera)   First world problem: effects of organic milk shortage felt in Boulder   (dailycamera.com) divider line 140
    More: Stupid, organic milk, alfalfa, Broomfield, King Soopers  
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4131 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Jan 2012 at 12:03 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-01-23 12:57:11 PM  

stryker4526: Organic farming techniques use more water. It's not exactly a secret.


It's not true, either. Well, you do get lower crop yields as pests take their cut, but when that's where the water goes, it's not like it gets polluted and flushed into the ocean.

It's a concern in dry third-world nations that need to grow all they can, but in America it's partisan trolling to call it irresponsible. America has more of a topsoil depletion problem than a freshwater shortage, and properly executed organic farming is far less damaging in that respect. Any freshwater shortages in America are caused by people blatantly wasting the stuff.

It's a resource issue. People here are trying to do the right thing, and you're just looking for fights.

meat0918: Perhaps it's just me and where I live, but I've already noticed the hipsters are moving on from what is now mainstream organic food. Local and/or grow your own is where it is at now, organic or otherwise.


That's because Big Agri and the USDA have worked together to neuter the term down to just a pricing premium to gouge hipsters. And I won't deny that most hipsters have no farking idea why they're doing what they do. But the market that leads the hipsters are people who really DO care and really DO know their stuff. They're on to the USDA. The original intent was to support local, but USDA paved a path for Big Agri by raising the entry costs while simultaneously lowering standards. With local farmers priced out of the supermarkets, the hipsters have moved on to farmer's markets themselves. If that gets too lucrative I'm sure Big Agri will make a move there, as well.

"USDA Organic" is the most meaningless label on any packaged food product.
 
2012-01-23 12:58:37 PM  

shamanwest: Get thee behind me and repint, ye skimmer.

Skim milk is awful. My daughter drinks it at school, and I don't know how. It tastes like water someone put in a cup that someone else had drunk water from and didn't wash.

Ick.


I used to think the same thing, then my family switched to skim milk when I was in high school, and now 2% tastes like I'm drinking butter.
 
2012-01-23 12:58:50 PM  

Jack Black 62: meat0918: Jack Black 62: DoBeDoBeDo: Jack Black 62: DoBeDoBeDo: Wait, there are synthetic cows? "Organic cow" LMFAO.

No, but there are cows that eat only grass, the way nature intended.

So there are grass fed and grain fed cows. Calling it an "Organic" cow doesn't distinguish it from any other cow. I mean not on this planet at least, there could be some non carbon based cows somewhere in the Universe.

Stop being hipster and call it what it is. Grass Fed Jersey Cow Milk. Don't see the beef people having that issue. "Grass Fed Angus" describes both the variety of steer and the type of food product it was raised on.

I'd wager that most "Organic" milk drinkers don't even know that the milk of different breeds tastes different until it's pasteurized.

Organic cows are also not injected with hormones and antibiotics.

I drink raw milk from organic cows. Pasteurization renders the milk unhealthy.

Yes, it is rendered so very unhealthy when pasteurized.
[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x333]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 600x447]

[www.listeriablog.com image 400x432]

[www.newsmanateearchive.com image 600x564]

//I know, don't feed the troll.

It looks like it is you that is the troll.


I know you are but what am I? Is this what Fark has been reduced to.

Face it, raw milk is a far higher health risk for people than pasteurized milk. The facts stand with me, not raw milk advocates.
 
2012-01-23 01:03:22 PM  

dragonchild: It's a resource issue. People here are trying to do the right thing, and you're just looking for fights.


Doing things that reduce crop yields in a world of ever-decreasing arable land is not "the right thing."
Organic farming is just a feel good label for hipsters. What we need is sustainable and responsible farming while ever-increasing yield per acre, and that means smart water and pesticide usage as well as GM crops.
It's debatable as to whether this includes buying locally, but I try to anyway because local produce just tastes so much better.
 
2012-01-23 01:03:34 PM  

stryker4526: We're getting less and less arable land all the time, we need to be INCREASING crop yields, not reducing them.


Which is why I like GMO technology. I think it was in Tomorrow's Table, they cited a figure that 50% of all crops grown are lost to disease and pests. We can reduce that number without changing any of the inputs like water and fertilizer and get higher yields if we have plants resistant to the disease and pests.

I acknowledge it is a bit of an arms race with the natural world, but it's one that is worth it.
 
2012-01-23 01:05:43 PM  

meat0918: stryker4526: We're getting less and less arable land all the time, we need to be INCREASING crop yields, not reducing them.

Which is why I like GMO technology. I think it was in Tomorrow's Table, they cited a figure that 50% of all crops grown are lost to disease and pests. We can reduce that number without changing any of the inputs like water and fertilizer and get higher yields if we have plants resistant to the disease and pests.

I acknowledge it is a bit of an arms race with the natural world, but it's one that is worth it.


I agree, but unfortunately there is a lot of myth and scare tactic out there about GMO crops.
 
2012-01-23 01:06:17 PM  
I prefer mine on tap:

oasischat.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-01-23 01:06:53 PM  

shamanwest: Skim milk is awful. My daughter drinks it at school, and I don't know how. It tastes like water someone put in a cup that someone else had drunk water from and didn't wash.


Really? Around here it tastes like milk. The only real difference that I can find with it is the texture is much thinner then the 1% or 2%. It's not the greatest in coffee mind you but I drink my coffee black anyway.
 
2012-01-23 01:08:21 PM  

jst3p: I prefer mine on tap:

[oasischat.files.wordpress.com image 500x375]


There is nothing quite like complaining there is no cream for coffee and having your wife assault you from across the kitchen with it "straight from the tap".
 
2012-01-23 01:10:25 PM  
So buy some organic soy milk you little biatch.

t0.gstatic.com
 
2012-01-23 01:11:08 PM  

meat0918: jst3p: I prefer mine on tap:

[oasischat.files.wordpress.com image 500x375]

There is nothing quite like complaining there is no cream for coffee and having your wife assault you from across the kitchen with it "straight from the tap".


How was her aim?
 
2012-01-23 01:11:17 PM  

Egoy3k: shamanwest: Skim milk is awful. My daughter drinks it at school, and I don't know how. It tastes like water someone put in a cup that someone else had drunk water from and didn't wash.

Really? Around here it tastes like milk. The only real difference that I can find with it is the texture is much thinner then the 1% or 2%. It's not the greatest in coffee mind you but I drink my coffee black anyway.


I drink whole milk, and nothing else.

No, I am not fat, I've actually lost 20lbs since I made the switch. I've made some other life changes though, like reducing portion size and getting a dog and walking him regularly.
 
2012-01-23 01:12:01 PM  

meat0918: jst3p: I prefer mine on tap:

[oasischat.files.wordpress.com image 500x375]

There is nothing quite like complaining there is no cream for coffee and having your wife assault you from across the kitchen with it "straight from the tap".


Rule 34.
 
2012-01-23 01:12:10 PM  

MoronLessOff: meat0918: jst3p: I prefer mine on tap:

[oasischat.files.wordpress.com image 500x375]

There is nothing quite like complaining there is no cream for coffee and having your wife assault you from across the kitchen with it "straight from the tap".

How was her aim?


She was aiming for me and hit me. I'd say pretty good, even though she was just as surprised she actually got the distance and was on target.
 
2012-01-23 01:13:27 PM  

stryker4526: meat0918: stryker4526: We're getting less and less arable land all the time, we need to be INCREASING crop yields, not reducing them.

Which is why I like GMO technology. I think it was in Tomorrow's Table, they cited a figure that 50% of all crops grown are lost to disease and pests. We can reduce that number without changing any of the inputs like water and fertilizer and get higher yields if we have plants resistant to the disease and pests.

I acknowledge it is a bit of an arms race with the natural world, but it's one that is worth it.

I agree, but unfortunately there is a lot of myth and scare tactic out there about GMO crops.


On this, we definitely agree.
 
2012-01-23 01:15:30 PM  

stryker4526: As I said, you ignoring it doesn't make it untrue.


And you being condescending and obnoxious doesn't make your claims true. So, got any citations?
 
2012-01-23 01:17:46 PM  

Huck Chaser: stryker4526: meat0918: stryker4526: We're getting less and less arable land all the time, we need to be INCREASING crop yields, not reducing them.

Which is why I like GMO technology. I think it was in Tomorrow's Table, they cited a figure that 50% of all crops grown are lost to disease and pests. We can reduce that number without changing any of the inputs like water and fertilizer and get higher yields if we have plants resistant to the disease and pests.

I acknowledge it is a bit of an arms race with the natural world, but it's one that is worth it.

I agree, but unfortunately there is a lot of myth and scare tactic out there about GMO crops.

On this, we definitely agree.


I remember the first person I met at college who was against GMO. Her argument was "they put SPIDER DNA in beans" I asked her what was significant about that. All she could reply was that "spider DNA should not be in beans".

I found that most people who are vehemently against GMOs fall under that, or try to seem more legitimate by screaming MONSANTO as loud as they can.
 
2012-01-23 01:18:05 PM  
I read TFA but all I can think of is: Why is there a dog in a grocery store?

/yes, I know, service dogs, etc., etc.
 
2012-01-23 01:18:27 PM  
It's milk. Get over it. Either buy the regular stuff which is 100% the same, or don't buy any at all. You're a big boy, you don't need it.
 
2012-01-23 01:18:41 PM  

Egoy3k: put regular milk in the organic cartons and nobody will know the difference, well except for the stores they'll see profits increase.

Seriously what is in 'regular' milk that makes it so scary when compared with 'organic' milk?


Growth hormones, specifically the ones they use to make the cows lactate more. The same hormones that may be partly to blame for girls entering puberty at ever-earlier ages.

On the flip side, it may also be responsible for the average breast cup size to increase with each generation.
 
2012-01-23 01:19:35 PM  

Current Resident: I read TFA but all I can think of is: Why is there a dog in a grocery store?

/yes, I know, service dogs, etc., etc.


Buns.
 
2012-01-23 01:21:02 PM  

Splinshints: stryker4526: As I said, you ignoring it doesn't make it untrue.

And you being condescending and obnoxious doesn't make your claims true. So, got any citations?


Common knowledge doesn't usually require citations, but here you go.
Link (new window)
Stop being willfully ignorant now.
 
2012-01-23 01:21:58 PM  

Loreweaver: Egoy3k: put regular milk in the organic cartons and nobody will know the difference, well except for the stores they'll see profits increase.

Seriously what is in 'regular' milk that makes it so scary when compared with 'organic' milk?

Growth hormones, specifically the ones they use to make the cows lactate more. The same hormones that may be partly to blame for girls entering puberty at ever-earlier ages.

On the flip side, it may also be responsible for the average breast cup size to increase with each generation.


That's just plain old fat.

Last I checked, rBST does not affect human growth at all. There are some preliminary findings that there may be an increase in breast cancer, but more study is needed. It is not a clear cut, "rBST milk causes breast cancer!!!111" link.

However, obesity does all the things you mentioned. It can be blamed for the increase in average breast cup size AND early onset of puberty (as well as delayed onset of menstration). Obesity sucks, and childhood obesity has been rising right alongside those other changes.
 
2012-01-23 01:23:08 PM  

sevenpointsixtwo: Organic milk tastes better, there's no doubt about that. I won't spend an extra nickel on anything else organic, but the milk...well worth the cost. Horizon milk = win.


Coconut milk tastes better, no? And it is organic.
 
2012-01-23 01:25:13 PM  

MoronLessOff: meat0918: Plus, there is a lot of encouragement to actually let fields lie fallow, rather than put corn in the same field for 5 years running...

I thought this was Farming 101. You have to rotate your crops.


It's more complex that that, as I found out when my organic dairy farm went bankrupt. We kept rotating the cows, but they just got dizzy and fell over.
 
2012-01-23 01:25:23 PM  

sevenpointsixtwo: Organic milk tastes better, there's no doubt about that. I won't spend an extra nickel on anything else organic, but the milk...well worth the cost. Horizon milk = win.


I have found that some organic vegetables are actually more flavorful, probably just because organic farmers choose to plant different varieties than conventional farmers. Anyways, when I'm making soup or something, I kinda like using the extra carroty carrots.
 
2012-01-23 01:26:20 PM  

Loreweaver: Egoy3k: put regular milk in the organic cartons and nobody will know the difference, well except for the stores they'll see profits increase.

Seriously what is in 'regular' milk that makes it so scary when compared with 'organic' milk?

Growth hormones, specifically the ones they use to make the cows lactate more. The same hormones that may be partly to blame for girls entering puberty at ever-earlier ages.

On the flip side, it may also be responsible for the average breast cup size to increase with each generation.


I've never seen any actual data that supports either of those conclusions.
 
2012-01-23 01:26:22 PM  

stryker4526: Doing things that reduce crop yields in a world of ever-decreasing arable land is not "the right thing."


Um, and what do you think is reducing the arable land. . . organic farming?

There are two modes to a discourse: problem-solving and picking fights. Since you keep dismissively referring to "hipsters", it's pretty easy to tell why you're here.
 
2012-01-23 01:27:45 PM  

stryker4526: Splinshints: stryker4526: As I said, you ignoring it doesn't make it untrue.

And you being condescending and obnoxious doesn't make your claims true. So, got any citations?

Common knowledge doesn't usually require citations, but here you go.
Link (new window)
Stop being willfully ignorant now.


Here, this guy claims he can rebuild lost soil in as little as 5 years with his methods. They have done a number on our yard, which was 2-3" of topsoil followed by 12-18" of clay. In the beds we now have 6-8" of topsoil, and the clay underneath is being broken through as well. Warning though, these are all labor intensive methods.

I have no idea how to apply these methods to large farms. Perhaps we will have soil farms in the future, where we literally grow the soil for transplant into fields, spreading it as we do manure.
 
2012-01-23 01:30:39 PM  

toraque: MoronLessOff: meat0918: Plus, there is a lot of encouragement to actually let fields lie fallow, rather than put corn in the same field for 5 years running...

I thought this was Farming 101. You have to rotate your crops.

It's more complex that that, as I found out when my organic dairy farm went bankrupt. We kept rotating the cows, but they just got dizzy and fell over.


You should have used owls. You can rotate them all you like.
 
2012-01-23 01:31:09 PM  
If you can't get organic milk try inorganic milk. I highly recommend

images.allegrocentral.com

It supplies 100% of your daily magnesium needs, not so much of the calcium though.
 
2012-01-23 01:42:08 PM  
Organic: A buzzword made up by advertisers at the behest of food companies in order to take an extra 70% out of your paycheck and into the pockets of the CEOs of said food companies.

See also terms like "Homemade," "Hearty" and "Gourmet"

/God, Carlin had it right all along didn't he?
//The joke will be when "organic" was just a buzzword
///and everything they've eaten was no different than anything I eat
 
2012-01-23 01:46:55 PM  

Egoy3k: put regular milk in the organic cartons and nobody will know the difference, well except for the stores they'll see profits increase.

Seriously what is in 'regular' milk that makes it so scary when compared with 'organic' milk?


Phlegm. Huge slimy gobs of it. Only organic milk is phlegm-free.
 
2012-01-23 01:52:00 PM  

Jack Black 62: cefm: It's milk. Get over it. Either buy the regular stuff which is 100% the same, or don't buy any at all. You're a big boy, you don't need it.

Can you really write that with a straight face?


Please don't upset the sheep. It has taken us years to program them to accept crap. McDonald's knows what's best for them.
 
2012-01-23 01:52:51 PM  

sevenpointsixtwo: Organic milk tastes better, there's no doubt about that. I won't spend an extra nickel on anything else organic, but the milk...well worth the cost. Horizon milk = win.


didn't Horizon have some big issue recently with their milk not quite being up to snuff??

/too lazy to search
//could swear it's true though
///raw milk is where it's at
 
2012-01-23 01:53:51 PM  

stryker4526: Splinshints: stryker4526: As I said, you ignoring it doesn't make it untrue.

And you being condescending and obnoxious doesn't make your claims true. So, got any citations?

Common knowledge doesn't usually require citations, but here you go.
Link (new window)
Stop being willfully ignorant now.


That link says that it's decreasing, but says nothing about whether we currently have enough or not. Regardless, it seems to me that a good way to stop it from decreasing would be to stop abusing it with unsustainable agriculture techniques.
 
2012-01-23 01:54:00 PM  

shamanwest: Egoy3k: put regular milk in the organic cartons and nobody will know the difference, well except for the stores they'll see profits increase.

Seriously what is in 'regular' milk that makes it so scary when compared with 'organic' milk?

The hippies would know. To them it would be the same difference as if I put 2% milk in your whole milk container and didn't tell you. You would know something was wrong with your milk.

I was actually listening to a story about this on NPR. The problem is that the demand for grain for these cows is up but there are not more farmers to produce organic grain. It is a problem that is encountered in capitalism and they'll need to find a way to fix it if they want their product to be priced competitively.


if the hippies actually cared bout "organic", they'd feed the cows grass and not grain. One of the reasons cows are medicated is to treat the stomach acidosis caused by grain. It's not their natural diet.
 
2012-01-23 01:56:39 PM  
Well switch to soy milk you dirty hippies
 
2012-01-23 01:57:18 PM  

stryker4526: Common knowledge doesn't usually require citations, but here you go.
Link (new window)


First of all, I'm not looking for backing to your claim about arable farmland, which is what the document appears to be about (and your document doesn't even finger organic farming as a culprit), I'm looking for backing to your claim that organic farming is so terrible, specifically so bad that it justifies attacking someone as a "jackass" without provocation.

Second of all, you don't get to just decree that something is "common knowledge" when making your claims as an excuse for not backing those claims. I know exactly next to nothing about farming, so nothing beyond "plants grow in dirt" is common knowledge to me just like I'm sure many of the things I know and feel are obvious and intuitive about, say, software engineering are not things I should expect anybody else to know. Especially not if I just got done insulting them and claiming my way of doing things was superior.
 
2012-01-23 01:59:08 PM  

meat0918: Loreweaver: Egoy3k: put regular milk in the organic cartons and nobody will know the difference, well except for the stores they'll see profits increase.

Seriously what is in 'regular' milk that makes it so scary when compared with 'organic' milk?

Growth hormones, specifically the ones they use to make the cows lactate more. The same hormones that may be partly to blame for girls entering puberty at ever-earlier ages.

On the flip side, it may also be responsible for the average breast cup size to increase with each generation.

That's just plain old fat.

Last I checked, rBST does not affect human growth at all. There are some preliminary findings that there may be an increase in breast cancer, but more study is needed. It is not a clear cut, "rBST milk causes breast cancer!!!111" link.

However, obesity does all the things you mentioned. It can be blamed for the increase in average breast cup size AND early onset of puberty (as well as delayed onset of menstration). Obesity sucks, and childhood obesity has been rising right alongside those other changes.


Quite true, but I do recall there being a big media uproar several years back about a possible link between the two. It doesn't matter if the results were ultimately inconclusive, the media successfully instilled the belief in a generation of viewers, and I still hear the subject come up from time to time when dealing with people who've "gone organic".

Until I see evidence of a real link, I'm going to continue buying regular milk. Though I must admit, the "cream on top" pasteurized milk sold by the local Amish is much richer than store-bought, probably because it isn't watered-down.
 
2012-01-23 02:00:14 PM  

stryker4526: Egoy3k: put regular milk in the organic cartons and nobody will know the difference, well except for the stores they'll see profits increase.

Seriously what is in 'regular' milk that makes it so scary when compared with 'organic' milk?

Bovine growth hormone and antibiotics, supposedly.
Although I'm pretty sure nobody has managed to find a difference between drinking regular and BvGH milk yet.
However, overuse of antibiotics in the meat and dairy industry IS a real problem, and is part of the reason for shiat like MRSA.


You can buy non-organic milk that doesn't use growth hormones or antibiotics. Safeway, Kroger, etc sell it.
 
2012-01-23 02:01:05 PM  

groppet: Well switch to soy milk you dirty hippies


Soy milk produces man boobs. There is a general backlash against soy, haven't you noticed?

I recently met someone that ate a gluten free, corn free, soy free, vegan diet at a local food fair. The fair was far more woo-filled than I thought it would be. I wanted mead and sauerkraut making tips, that's all!

It took a lot of will power to not ask, "Why do that to yourself?", but the quinoa tempeh was actually pretty good.
 
2012-01-23 02:09:06 PM  

bhcompy: stryker4526: Egoy3k: put regular milk in the organic cartons and nobody will know the difference, well except for the stores they'll see profits increase.

Seriously what is in 'regular' milk that makes it so scary when compared with 'organic' milk?

Bovine growth hormone and antibiotics, supposedly.
Although I'm pretty sure nobody has managed to find a difference between drinking regular and BvGH milk yet.
However, overuse of antibiotics in the meat and dairy industry IS a real problem, and is part of the reason for shiat like MRSA.

You can buy non-organic milk that doesn't use growth hormones or antibiotics. Safeway, Kroger, etc sell it.


Well then what's the difference?
 
2012-01-23 02:12:09 PM  

meat0918: groppet: Well switch to soy milk you dirty hippies

Soy milk produces man boobs. There is a general backlash against soy, haven't you noticed?

I recently met someone that ate a gluten free, corn free, soy free, vegan diet at a local food fair. The fair was far more woo-filled than I thought it would be. I wanted mead and sauerkraut making tips, that's all!

It took a lot of will power to not ask, "Why do that to yourself?", but the quinoa tempeh was actually pretty good.


i almost "do that to myself" - except i eat a ton of meat & dairy. i'm waaaaay healthier now than i have ever been and every meal is the most satisfying and delicious thing ever.

/didn't know that anyone else liked mead
 
2012-01-23 02:12:43 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2012-01-23 02:22:12 PM  

stryker4526: bhcompy: stryker4526: Egoy3k: put regular milk in the organic cartons and nobody will know the difference, well except for the stores they'll see profits increase.

Seriously what is in 'regular' milk that makes it so scary when compared with 'organic' milk?

Bovine growth hormone and antibiotics, supposedly.
Although I'm pretty sure nobody has managed to find a difference between drinking regular and BvGH milk yet.
However, overuse of antibiotics in the meat and dairy industry IS a real problem, and is part of the reason for shiat like MRSA.

You can buy non-organic milk that doesn't use growth hormones or antibiotics. Safeway, Kroger, etc sell it.

Well then what's the difference?


I imagine it's organic feed. Organic livestock(and milk I imagine) must be fed organic feed
 
2012-01-23 02:22:38 PM  

Jack Black 62: inner ted: meat0918: groppet: Well switch to soy milk you dirty hippies

Soy milk produces man boobs. There is a general backlash against soy, haven't you noticed?

I recently met someone that ate a gluten free, corn free, soy free, vegan diet at a local food fair. The fair was far more woo-filled than I thought it would be. I wanted mead and sauerkraut making tips, that's all!

It took a lot of will power to not ask, "Why do that to yourself?", but the quinoa tempeh was actually pretty good.

i almost "do that to myself" - except i eat a ton of meat & dairy. i'm waaaaay healthier now than i have ever been and every meal is the most satisfying and delicious thing ever.

/didn't know that anyone else liked mead

Mead is the drink of the Gods!


Once again, proof alcohol can bring people together in agreement!

To MEAD!

4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-01-23 02:24:47 PM  
Weird combination of anti-environment trollsters and raw milk truthers in here.

Horizon milk sucks... Organic Valley is much, much better than the commercial stuff. Horizon uses more kerosene in heating their barns in colder months than large scale milk factories so you are basically drinking oil ripped out of our planet's heart. You can't afford to shop at Whole Foods because you are an asshole who is not talented enough at anything to be paid a decent wage. When I have the time I go pick up my raw milk from a cabal of excommunicated Amish farmers who use heirloom Ayrshire stocks. If you've been conditioned by the government to enjoy Guernsey, then this stuff will finally expose the sham the FDA continues to be.
 
2012-01-23 02:26:33 PM  

karmaceutical: Weird combination of anti-environment trollsters and raw milk truthers in here.

Horizon milk sucks... Organic Valley is much, much better than the commercial stuff. Horizon uses more kerosene in heating their barns in colder months than large scale milk factories so you are basically drinking oil ripped out of our planet's heart. You can't afford to shop at Whole Foods because you are an asshole who is not talented enough at anything to be paid a decent wage. When I have the time I go pick up my raw milk from a cabal of excommunicated Amish farmers who use heirloom Ayrshire stocks. If you've been conditioned by the government to enjoy Guernsey, then this stuff will finally expose the sham the FDA continues to be.


Not sure if serious...
 
2012-01-23 02:27:18 PM  
I'm lactose intolerant so I'm really getting a kick.....

Always hated the taste of cow's milk too. Dr. says no soy so it's almond and coconut milk for me. Pretty good, actually.
 
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