Single-payer healthcare and strong unions?

Or is it that every other industrialized nation is in rumbles after a world war allowing Germany to hold a monopoly on manufacturing?

There are nations where it's thought to be important to retain manufacturing jobs that are capable of maintaining a strong middle class???

Won't avoiding the use of third world slave labor slow the rate at which the rich get richer?

Won't somebody think of the obscenely wealthy???

We've been subjected to a three decade long capitalist con job.

They're totally entrenched now and aren't going anywhere until the corpse is dry.

Germany has a great single payer health care system and Unions for all.

Gee, funny how that works.

Institutional Slavery?

Germany has free trade in name only. They don't sell out their workers to the lowest bidder.

Outrageous Muff: Single-payer healthcare and strong unions?

Their health care system is far from perfect, according to the people I talked to in Germany. That said, it sounds a lot better than ours. Insurance companies are required to provide certain benefits at certain prices, and they're not allowed to jack up the prices you or dump you when you get sick.

trotsky: Germany has a great single payer health care system and Unions for all.

Gee, funny how that works.

So does Greece.

I suspect it's more the work ethic, preference for cash over credit, and sensible economic policies.

But beware... Germans aren't all smiles und sunshine.

watson.t.hamster: trotsky: Germany has a great single payer health care system and Unions for all.

Gee, funny how that works.

So does Greece.

I suspect it's more the work ethic, preference for cash over credit, and sensible economic policies.

It's about paying taxes. Germans pay them, Greeks don't.

IamSporko: But beware... Germans aren't all smiles und sunshine.

no one who speaks German can be an evil man ..

This wasn't an awkward diplomatic facepalm. It was a.... TRANSFER OF POWER!

Red Shirt Blues: Outrageous Muff: Single-payer healthcare and strong unions?

Or is it that every other industrialized nation is in rumbles after a world war allowing Germany to hold a monopoly on manufacturing?

trotsky: Germany has a great single payer health care system

No, it doesn't.

trotsky: Germany has a great single payer health care system and Unions for all.

Gee, funny how that works.

It's actually a multi payer system. The poor and most of the middle class are on a government-run program, some have the choice of being on a subsidized private insurance program for a little bit more, and the upper middle class and wealthy don't get any government support.

But, same effect. Point still stands.

2wolves: "It has thrived on principles America seems to have lost"

Rape the land, abuse the workers, and generally crap over the rest of the world?

They only had to be effectively castrated twice (it grew back) in the last century and basically have been forbidden to have a military of much consequence by the rest of West. When you can spend all your money on "butter" and be light on the "guns", it helps out your domestic situation immensely.

That being said, I think they have made effective compromises set in motion begrudgingly by this crusty and brilliant right-wing old guard militarist guy to stick it to the communists (and consequentially driven off the tracks a few times by others later on):

jigger: trotsky: Germany has a great single payer health care system

No, it doesn't.

Germany has the government set a global budget but leaves the administration to competing non-profit PRIVATE health insurance plans. I think they have a great system, but it certainly isn't single payer...which in and of itself does not need to be our singular goal. It would be like if we all had Medicare Advantage plans in the U.S..

Yeah, the GOP won. The hippies were pushed back. Liberal and intellectual ideals were marginalized and derided. We consisted of too many cowards, and gradual change wasn't allowed to occur as it must. One side dominated, wielded the country as a weapon, pushed a social agenda to match their fear-based perspective, took us completely off balance. The universe has wrenched us back toward equilibrium, it's painful but inevitable, just as if ultra-liberals had been running the country for the last 50 years we would necessitate some snap back from their unrealistic policies.

Not this horseshiat again. What is the point of this teutonic cocksucking?

Why Germany is thriving while much of Europe faces economic collapse

Yeah, right.

Germany May Be on Brink of Recession After GDP Decline: Economy

Europe's largest economy shrank "roughly" 0.25 percent in the fourth quarter from the third, the Federal Statistics Office in Wiesbaden said today

German steelmakers see zero output growth in 2012

"Output will be stable," said WV Stahl president Hans Juergen Kerkhoff.

Germany: High on jobs, low on growth

"Germany boasts a low unemployment rate, but industrial production is in a free fall"

Thriving? No. Stable? For the moment...

CmndrFish: It's actually a multi payer system. The poor and most of the middle class are on a government-run program, some have the choice of being on a subsidized private insurance program for a little bit more, and the upper middle class and wealthy don't get any government support.

It was a system that the liberals actually suggested for America, which Obama couldn't find a bus fast enough to throw it under -- basically, the "public option", which is to say, the government is the health care provider of the last resort. That means it doesn't even need to be good; if you didn't like it, you were always welcome to buy private insurance, which is (if you ask the corporatists) always better. That's how it works in Germany -- if you want to sell insurance at all, it has to be better than the government's offer.

Well, it got derailed because the oh-so-efficient American health insurance companies were terrified of the competition. Which begs the question, if government services are as broken and inefficient as Republicans claim, why would they be scared?

2wolves: "It has thrived on principles America seems to have lost"

Rape the land, abuse the workers, and generally crap over the rest of the world?

Easy there, Richard.

Look, everyone wants to be like Germany but do we really have the pure strength of will?

Living in America feels a lot like playing defense on a team of egomaniacal amateurs. Half the team could be doing everything right but with the other half out of position or slacking off, there are just too many holes to exploit, and boy do those holes get exploited in rapey ways.

dragonchild: CmndrFish: It's actually a multi payer system. The poor and most of the middle class are on a government-run program, some have the choice of being on a subsidized private insurance program for a little bit more, and the upper middle class and wealthy don't get any government support.

It was a system that the liberals actually suggested for America, which Obama couldn't find a bus fast enough to throw it under -- basically, the "public option", which is to say, the government is the health care provider of the last resort. That means it doesn't even need to be good; if you didn't like it, you were always welcome to buy private insurance, which is (if you ask the corporatists) always better. That's how it works in Germany -- if you want to sell insurance at all, it has to be better than the government's offer.

Well, it got derailed because the oh-so-efficient American health insurance companies were terrified of the competition. Which begs the question, if government services are as broken and inefficient as Republicans claim, why would they be scared?

Sorry to say it but you are absolutely stone...dead...wrong on this one. What a great deal of Obamacare is going to be doing ends up modeling the German system exactly. There is no "public option" in the German system. The government just fronts the money for the poor so they can enroll in the "sickness funds" as they are called. Basically, what the exchange system will be here.

Let me just make this crystal clear...the government in Germany sets the global budget for healthcare...it does not administer the insurance programs. The reason the public option failed in the United States is that it is a disingenuous backdoor strategy to single-payer for many reasons that would take too long to discuss here (basically, the government manipulating certain "advantages". We actually ended up with this CO-OP loan strategy for non-profit health plan formation instead which I think is a stupid idea and a waste of money after we have gone to a lot of expensive effort to supposedly regulate the private insurers better.

The only problem is that we have inflated costs so high at this point in this country; We can't just role Medicare, Medicaid, and CHIP into private insurance companies who are compliant with a set MLR floor and treated much like private utilities (community rating, guaranteed issue, etc.)...their current payment levels are too different (government payer are too low). We really should have done this from the beginning, but at the latest the early 1980s. Still, that is public policy for you...a day late and a dollar short.

They suckered all their neighbors into joining a currency union where all the benefits flow to them.

Amagi: the government in Germany sets the global budget for healthcare...it does not administer the insurance programs

Maybe it comes from living in a country where health insurance companies are more politically powerful than the President himself, but I'm missing a critical step here: How the hell do they manage to do that??

You can't just set a budget without administration. A budget by itself means nothing; without direct administration the insurers could just spend until the money's gone, then hold a gun to the country's head demanding more. It's pretty much how the banks, auto companies and airlines got their bailouts.

The exchange is also a joke. Many of the companies have vast regional monopolies and there aren't any artificial means of leveling the playing field, so it's got all the competition of a one-party election. Which is probably why the insurance companies let that get passed.

Vera and Volkmar Kruger, seen here in the town of Limburg, Germany, not far from their home in Elz, earn about $40,000 a year but live as well as an American couple making twice as much. (Don Lee, Los Angeles Times / January 21, 2012)

Except for the fact that they live in Germany.

I'd rather not make as much and still live in the U.S.

Handsome B. Wonderful: Look, everyone wants to be like Germany but do we really have the pure strength of will?

If we work really hard at it, a triumph of the will is very possible

WellBelowAverage: Except for the fact that they live in Germany.

I take it you don't like alcohol or partying?

MrEricSir: WellBelowAverage: Except for the fact that they live in Germany.

I take it you don't like alcohol or partying?

#1 Haircut in Germany: The Mullet. But enough about the ladies.

dragonchild: You can't just set a budget without administration. A budget by itself means nothing; without direct administration the insurers could just spend until the money's gone, then hold a gun to the country's head demanding more. It's pretty much how the banks, auto companies and airlines got their bailouts.

I'm sure part of it is cultural. Corporate ethics in America are driven by the bottom line first. If the bottom line means farking the country over, that's okay. Perhaps in Germany if they say "you have 1 trillion euros to spend this year" they try to work within that constraint rather than go for another trillion in 6 months because they know the government will bend over and bail them out

From the article - Yet the Krugers have a higher standard of living than many Americans who have twice that income.

Man are americans a bunch of losers

Handsome B. Wonderful: Look, everyone wants to be like Germany but do we really have the pure strength of will?

I say we do!

Except for the 6 weeks of vacation part, we live much the same on $40k. House in the city, country home, 8 years income in savings, four happy dogs, etc. What don't we have? Brand-new car loans (3 paid-for), a TV in every room (one TV), buckets of broken electronic toys (yeah, we've got a kinect), the list goes on. Oh, and NO credit card debt.

Debt based money is evil. It's just a matter of time before the music stops and everyone realizes that the rich have ALL of the chairs.

The issue is simple--every German I've ever known here in America would be considered cheap way beyond frugal.

Standard of living means different things to different people. One person's going out all the time and having a new car, but no savings, is another person's brown-bag lunch, old car, and cash in the bank.

We finally got our spending under control, are looked upon as colorless and frugal by some of our friends, and are much happier now that we have no significant debt and are building up our savings.

Born American, but German by ancestry, so our progression sort of fits this story.

apeiron242: Debt based money is evil. It's just a matter of time before the music stops and everyone realizes that the rich have ALL of the chairs.

Bah, another one of these.

Look, debt is kind of like the financial version of antibiotics. As a short-term or mid-term solution, it's great. Poor people get access to money they wouldn't have otherwise, and rich people have a use for their money besides stuffing mattresses. But the underlying assumption is that it's a means to an end. You take antibiotics to fix a problem, then you STOP TAKING THEM. Same with debt -- you go into it PLANNING to eventually get out. Which is why strong societies have usury laws to prevent the rich from turning the poor into indentured servants, but it's kind of hard to do that when the poor are doing so willingly.

quoinguy: every German I've ever known here in America would be considered cheap way beyond frugal.

I've been called "cheap" and "fancy". The people who judge me by my recreational spending call me "cheap". The people who judge me by my essential spending call me "fancy".

Fact is, I don't spend money I don't have and spend what I do have on quality. Depending on who's watching me I'm either a hipster or a cheapass. Then it hit me -- most Americans eat crap and drive the most expensive car they can afford. I eat well but bought a Honda Fit.

I often do wonder if I'd fit in better in Germany or Finland.

Maybe the lack of Goldman Sachs has something to do with it?

What "dragonchild" said.

If every teenager would wise up & listen to their parents, as I should have, and start their lives out slowly, rather than try to acquire everything right away, we'd all be better off.

Now that I finally wised up (and have most everything I need to be happy) life is a lot more relaxing. Don't have the newest iphone and the data plan costs that go with it, but I don't NEED it.

/Have a big TV for the family and Netflix--better use of the entertainment dollar, as an example.

2wolves: "It has thrived on principles America seems to have lost"

Fine then, Germany. Can we just close down those bases we have been operating on OUR tax dollars for the past sixty-five years while you've been out touching monkeys?

Something tells me CEOs in Germany lacks some of the spiffy stock option opportunities that their counterparts in America enjoy

Germany also benefits from a trade union where the rules are slanted in its favor, thus ensuring its large exporting business grow more rapidly than they would under true market conditions.

/ did not rtfa