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(Daily Mail)   Jewish newspaper publisher apologizes for saying Israel should consider assassinating Obama. Was that wrong? Should he not have done that?   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 398
    More: Followup, obama, Jewish, Yiddish, Jewish community, Benjamin Netanyahu  
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11576 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Jan 2012 at 5:25 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-01-23 10:15:10 AM

Heron: 404 page not found: Heron: Mr Adler was presenting a hypothetical situation from the perspective of prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu's potentially disastrous conflicts with the Arab world.



From this article, it sounds like Adler may have been saying, "these are crazy things the wackos in Bibi's admin might be contemplating", not necessarily "this is totally something I think would be to the benefit of Israel".

This (new window) article goes more in-depth on Adler's piece.

"You have got to believe, like I do, that all options are on the table.
With this in mind, again I ask you, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, what would you do?" - From Adler's article (new window)

Oops. Yeah that was an editing mistake. When I started writing that response, I'd only read the article linked here, then before posting I thought, "gee, I should try to find some better coverage of it before I comment on it", and while I didn't find the full article itself, I found a few other that made it clear he himself was suggesting these things, so I changed what I wrote. However, I apparently forgot to delete the passage from the linked article that I italicized at the top of my response, so it seemed like I was saying he was putting forward hypotheticals, not advocating anything. Of course, given the comments I've made between that one and this one, this comment might just make the whole thing even more confusing as I've got early responses to stuff you wrote later than your comment here:/


images.cheezburger.com
 
2012-01-23 10:16:59 AM
This is a symptom of a larger disease.
 
2012-01-23 10:17:40 AM
Just revoke his citizenship and deport him to Israel.
 
2012-01-23 10:23:06 AM

bugontherug: The US neither tortures nor renditions to torture under the Obama administration.

Link (new window)


I'd like to believe that I really would; but the level of "secret" behavior our government has been practicing in the name of "national security", now for over a decade, behavior that hasn't stopped with Obama, combined with the reporting out there on the issue of detainee treatment in such cases as Manning and our overseas prisons leaves me pretty skeptical of anything the gov claims on these issues. If the years since 2001 have taught us anything, it's that you can no longer take anything the US government says at face value. If the Obama admin wants to be convincing in its renunciation of torture, then it needs to open facilities like Bagram to Amnesty International and UN investigators, and release detailed information of prisoner maintenance, and the SOP for these facilities.
 
2012-01-23 10:25:59 AM

Mugato: Porous Horace: From Wikipedia:
"While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, the term was coined in the late 19th century in Germany as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"), and that has been its normal use since then."

The question being, why is it still used to mean just hatred of the Jewish people?


Why is 'American' used to refer to citizens of the United States when there exists North, Central and South Americas?
Look in any dictionary; 'anti-Semite' means 'Jew hater'.
If you wish to reform dictionaries or languages then go ahead.
Meantime that's what the word means, so people need to stop playing that stupid 'semite/anti-semite' game. It helps nothing.
If one wishes to avoid ambiguity, then, as I said, use 'Jew hater'.

Just like the "Anti-Defamation League" is really "Anti-Defamation against Jews", so they co-opted all defamation as well.

From the ADL site:
The Anti-Defamation League was founded in 1913 "to stop the defamation of the Jewish people and to secure justice and fair treatment to all." Now the nation's premier civil rights/human relations agency, ADL fights anti-Semitism and all forms of bigotry, defends democratic ideals and protects civil rights for all.

So, no, you're wrong.
 
2012-01-23 10:31:50 AM

Porous Horace: The Anti-Defamation League was founded in 1913 "to stop the defamation of the Jewish people and to secure justice and fair treatment to all." Now the nation's premier civil rights/human relations agency, ADL fights anti-Semitism and all forms of bigotry, defends democratic ideals and protects civil rights for all.


Of course their site is going to say that but look at their history. Look who the people are who head it and what their agenda is.

And a lot of people complain about the USA being called "America". I get biatched at all the time by both Canadians and Brazilians (never heard it when I was in Mexico). I never called them an anti-Americite.
 
2012-01-23 10:39:09 AM

Mugato: Porous Horace: The Anti-Defamation League was founded in 1913 "to stop the defamation of the Jewish people and to secure justice and fair treatment to all." Now the nation's premier civil rights/human relations agency, ADL fights anti-Semitism and all forms of bigotry, defends democratic ideals and protects civil rights for all.

Of course their site is going to say that but look at their history. Look who the people are who head it and what their agenda is.


Why 'of course' ?
What would they gain in misrepresenting themselves?
Use the magic Google to find out more on how they're not exclusively about Jews.

And a lot of people complain about the USA being called "America". I get biatched at all the time by both Canadians and Brazilians (never heard it when I was in Mexico). I never called them an anti-Americite.

So, rally and work hard to change language definitions and perceptions that you don't agree with.
 
2012-01-23 10:43:31 AM

Porous Horace: Mugato: Porous Horace: The Anti-Defamation League was founded in 1913 "to stop the defamation of the Jewish people and to secure justice and fair treatment to all." Now the nation's premier civil rights/human relations agency, ADL fights anti-Semitism and all forms of bigotry, defends democratic ideals and protects civil rights for all.

Of course their site is going to say that but look at their history. Look who the people are who head it and what their agenda is.

Why 'of course' ?
What would they gain in misrepresenting themselves?
Use the magic Google to find out more on how they're not exclusively about Jews.

And a lot of people complain about the USA being called "America". I get biatched at all the time by both Canadians and Brazilians (never heard it when I was in Mexico). I never called them an anti-Americite.

So, rally and work hard to change language definitions and perceptions that you don't agree with.


It's a shame that the head of the organization gave a full endorsement of bigotry during the "Ground Zero Mosque" episode.

"Their anguish entitles them to positions that others would categorize as irrational or bigoted," - Abe Foxman

So the ADL holds that bigotry is entirely justified, so long as you have a reason for it.
 
2012-01-23 10:45:36 AM

Mugato: LiteWerk: In a multitude of ways, President Obama has revealed to the US and the world that he is not, in fact, a Christian

How is he any less Christian than any other President?


Good point. They've all been, in their own way, unrepentant killers and boisterous servants of established wealth for awhile now. Then again, I don't see how that necessarily disqualifies someone from being a "Christian"; historically speaking, at least. If a guy like Richard the Lion-hearted -a psychotic, war-mongering, peasant-hating, rapist- can be considered a "most Christian King", then why can't Obama, who gives the CIA free reign to level Pakistani villages with robo-bombers, or Bush, who could only muster a shrug in response to a country we just invaded imploding into factional blood-letting? If a daughter-lusting, bastard-mongering, war-profiteering Medici can be a Pope, then why can't a Reagan, who never met an unfair fight he didn't like, or a Clinton, who did more to weaken Medicare and unemployment insurance in the US than most Republicans ever did, get in to that fictional Heaven?

I'm sure Pres. Obama is an excellent individual in a whole host of ways, but many of his decisions regarding policy and what side to take on important issues have been far from what I'd call ethical, or even entirely legal. Of course, when you've got a justice system as pre-disposed towards deference and as friendly towards radical reinterpretation of police powers as out current one, you can afford to take such stances.
 
2012-01-23 10:49:57 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Porous Horace: Mugato: Porous Horace: The Anti-Defamation League was founded in 1913 "to stop the defamation of the Jewish people and to secure justice and fair treatment to all." Now the nation's premier civil rights/human relations agency, ADL fights anti-Semitism and all forms of bigotry, defends democratic ideals and protects civil rights for all.

Of course their site is going to say that but look at their history. Look who the people are who head it and what their agenda is.

Why 'of course' ?
What would they gain in misrepresenting themselves?
Use the magic Google to find out more on how they're not exclusively about Jews.

And a lot of people complain about the USA being called "America". I get biatched at all the time by both Canadians and Brazilians (never heard it when I was in Mexico). I never called them an anti-Americite.

So, rally and work hard to change language definitions and perceptions that you don't agree with.

It's a shame that the head of the organization gave a full endorsement of bigotry during the "Ground Zero Mosque" episode.

"Their anguish entitles them to positions that others would categorize as irrational or bigoted," - Abe Foxman

So the ADL holds that bigotry is entirely justified, so long as you have a reason for it.


That's a different argument than what was being discussed.
 
2012-01-23 10:53:28 AM

Porous Horace: HotWingConspiracy: Porous Horace: Mugato: Porous Horace: The Anti-Defamation League was founded in 1913 "to stop the defamation of the Jewish people and to secure justice and fair treatment to all." Now the nation's premier civil rights/human relations agency, ADL fights anti-Semitism and all forms of bigotry, defends democratic ideals and protects civil rights for all.

Of course their site is going to say that but look at their history. Look who the people are who head it and what their agenda is.

Why 'of course' ?
What would they gain in misrepresenting themselves?
Use the magic Google to find out more on how they're not exclusively about Jews.

And a lot of people complain about the USA being called "America". I get biatched at all the time by both Canadians and Brazilians (never heard it when I was in Mexico). I never called them an anti-Americite.

So, rally and work hard to change language definitions and perceptions that you don't agree with.

It's a shame that the head of the organization gave a full endorsement of bigotry during the "Ground Zero Mosque" episode.

"Their anguish entitles them to positions that others would categorize as irrational or bigoted," - Abe Foxman

So the ADL holds that bigotry is entirely justified, so long as you have a reason for it.

That's a different argument than what was being discussed.


It ruins their mission statement. The organization is a transparent lobby group for a very specific group of people.
 
2012-01-23 10:56:07 AM

Tatsuma: That's not how it works. I see, and every other Jew who knows what he's talking about, considers a real convert according to Halacha just as Jewish as anyone else.


You ignored my question earlier so I'll ask it again: Are reform and conservative converts "real"? Or are only converts to fundamentalist (aka "Orthodox") sects "real"?
 
2012-01-23 11:20:22 AM

Mugato: Porous Horace: From Wikipedia:
"While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, the term was coined in the late 19th century in Germany as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"), and that has been its normal use since then."

The question being, why is it still used to mean just hatred of the Jewish people? Just like the "Anti-Defamation League" is really "Anti-Defamation against Jews", so they co-opted all defamation as well.


I've been using it to mean a generalized hatred against all Semitic peoples for awhile now. The great thing about language is that, if you object to the common usage of a word, you can just start using it in another way and, if more people take up the usage, that's what it'll mean. A broader definition that includes all Semitic populations is a more accurate and honest meaning for the word anyway, particularly considering that European Jewish population are, genetically, far more European than Semitic. Contrary to popular believe, Judaism in Europe during and after the Imperial period was quite evangelical.
 
2012-01-23 11:21:20 AM

Heron: Mugato: Porous Horace: From Wikipedia:
"While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, the term was coined in the late 19th century in Germany as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"), and that has been its normal use since then."

The question being, why is it still used to mean just hatred of the Jewish people? Just like the "Anti-Defamation League" is really "Anti-Defamation against Jews", so they co-opted all defamation as well.

... Contrary to popular believebelief, Judaism in Europe during and after the Imperial period was quite evangelical.



BAH! FTFM.
 
2012-01-23 11:22:48 AM

Heron: I've been using it to mean a generalized hatred against all Semitic peoples for awhile now. The great thing about language is that, if you object to the common usage of a word, you can just start using it in another way and, if more people take up the usage


Well, I appreciate your optimism but this one isn't going to change.
 
2012-01-23 11:43:45 AM

404 page not found: Heron: 404 page not found: Heron: Mr Adler was presenting a hypothetical situation from the perspective of prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu's potentially disastrous conflicts with the Arab world.



From this article, it sounds like Adler may have been saying, "these are crazy things the wackos in Bibi's admin might be contemplating", not necessarily "this is totally something I think would be to the benefit of Israel".

This (new window) article goes more in-depth on Adler's piece.

"You have got to believe, like I do, that all options are on the table.
With this in mind, again I ask you, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, what would you do?" - From Adler's article (new window)

Oops. Yeah that was an editing mistake. When I started writing that response, I'd only read the article linked here, then before posting I thought, "gee, I should try to find some better coverage of it before I comment on it", and while I didn't find the full article itself, I found a few other that made it clear he himself was suggesting these things, so I changed what I wrote. However, I apparently forgot to delete the passage from the linked article that I italicized at the top of my response, so it seemed like I was saying he was putting forward hypotheticals, not advocating anything. Of course, given the comments I've made between that one and this one, this comment might just make the whole thing even more confusing as I've got early responses to stuff you wrote later than your comment here:/

[images.cheezburger.com image 500x325]


Ha!
 
2012-01-23 11:49:10 AM

Porous Horace: Mugato: Porous Horace: The Anti-Defamation League was founded in 1913 "to stop the defamation of the Jewish people and to secure justice and fair treatment to all." Now the nation's premier civil rights/human relations agency, ADL fights anti-Semitism and all forms of bigotry, defends democratic ideals and protects civil rights for all.

Of course their site is going to say that but look at their history. Look who the people are who head it and what their agenda is.

Why 'of course' ?
What would they gain in misrepresenting themselves?
Use the magic Google to find out more on how they're not exclusively about Jews.



Evidence of ADL Spy Operation Seized by Police (new window)

QUOTE

"Police on Thursday served search warrants on the Anti-Defamation League here and in Los Angeles, seizing evidence of a nationwide intelligence network accused of keeping files on more than 950 political groups, newspapers and labor unions and as many as12,000 people.

Describing the spy operation in great detail, San Francisco authorities simultaneously released voluminous documents telling how operatives of the Anti-Defamation League searched through trash and infiltrated organizations to gather intelligence on Arab-American, right-wing and what they called "pinko" organizations.

Representatives of the Anti-Defamation League, a well-known organization in the U.S. Jewish community dedicated to fighting anti-Semitism, declined detailed comment Thursday but denied breaking any laws.

Police allege that the organization maintains undercover operatives to gather political intelligence in at least seven cities, including Los Angeles and San Francisco.

END QUOTE

The Google. It is magic.
 
G2V
2012-01-23 11:51:00 AM
I think Tatsuma is a secret goosestepping troll. I refuse to believe so much hard work on such a blatant double standard isn't fishing for lulz.
 
2012-01-23 11:54:44 AM

Amos Quito: Porous Horace: Mugato: Porous Horace: The Anti-Defamation League was founded in 1913 "to stop the defamation of the Jewish people and to secure justice and fair treatment to all." Now the nation's premier civil rights/human relations agency, ADL fights anti-Semitism and all forms of bigotry, defends democratic ideals and protects civil rights for all.

Of course their site is going to say that but look at their history. Look who the people are who head it and what their agenda is.

Why 'of course' ?
What would they gain in misrepresenting themselves?
Use the magic Google to find out more on how they're not exclusively about Jews.


Evidence of ADL Spy Operation Seized by Police (new window)

QUOTE

"Police on Thursday served search warrants on the Anti-Defamation League here and in Los Angeles, seizing evidence of a nationwide intelligence network accused of keeping files on more than 950 political groups, newspapers and labor unions and as many as12,000 people.

Describing the spy operation in great detail, San Francisco authorities simultaneously released voluminous documents telling how operatives of the Anti-Defamation League searched through trash and infiltrated organizations to gather intelligence on Arab-American, right-wing and what they called "pinko" organizations.

Representatives of the Anti-Defamation League, a well-known organization in the U.S. Jewish community dedicated to fighting anti-Semitism, declined detailed comment Thursday but denied breaking any laws.

Police allege that the organization maintains undercover operatives to gather political intelligence in at least seven cities, including Los Angeles and San Francisco.

END QUOTE

The Google. It is magic.



Don't expect a response to that.
 
2012-01-23 12:28:18 PM

J. Frank Parnell: I May Be Crazy But...: ACTUAL antisemitism

If you look up the word semite it applies to Arabs as well, so ACTUAL anti-semitism isn't limited to contemporary Jews, or Israel.

Amusingly, Jews who hate Arabs are technically anti-semites.


You should look up some more stuff.

Despite the use of the prefix anti-, the terms Semitic and anti-Semitic are not directly opposed to each other. Antisemitism refers specifically to prejudice against Jews alone and in general, despite the fact that there are other speakers of Semitic languages (e.g. Arabs, Ethiopians, or Assyrians) and that not all Jews speak a Semitic language.
 
2012-01-23 01:43:06 PM
They should wait a few more months so that there is little chance the democrat candidate that would replace Obama could win the election. Personally I just want to see Obama lose and lose big.
 
2012-01-23 01:45:57 PM

Profedius: They should wait a few more months so that there is little chance the democrat candidate that would replace Obama could win the election. Personally I just want to see Obama lose and lose big.



Why?

Is he "bad for the Jews"?
 
2012-01-23 02:01:47 PM

Tatsuma: 404 page not found: Riiiiiight. Because intelligence agencies [OF ANY NATION] would NEVER assassinate the leader of another country. That's just CRAZY!

anyone who actually believes that Israel would seriously consider, much less try, to assassinate a US President is:

1. A retard
2. Anti-semitic

That's really it. Because only retardation and an hatred of Jews that borders on Nazi-levels would make one seriously think that this hypothesis has any weight whatsoever.


I met a man when I went to A school at Corry Station. He had this wonderful story to tell all of us about a certain incident involving a certain ship that was attacked by certain planes of a certain country. This story here (new window) The USS Liberty lost 34 people because Israeli jets and torpedo boats attacked it for no reason even when it clearly was flying U.S. colors so don't you dare accuse someone of being retarded or anti-semitic when there is more than ample evidence showing what the Israelis are capable of when they decide to do what the hell they want to do.
 
2012-01-23 02:01:55 PM
So, I am generally considered a Jew. I don't believe in God. I don't really follow the Jewish religion. But, my mom is Jewish, so I was considered Jewish enough to get a free trip to Israel. There, they tried to fill me with Zionist propaganda. But, I did get to go to a bunch of cool places and eat free food. So, I can't complain.

That being said, the level of anti-Semitism in this thread disturbs me. I'm not talking about being anti-funding for Israel. I'm talking about hatred of Jews. It makes me feel unsafe to be an American knowing there is such open hostility toward Jews. It's disgusting. If you have a problem with religious freedoms, you are living in the wrong country.
 
2012-01-23 02:12:54 PM

Goban: Tatsuma: 404 page not found: Riiiiiight. Because intelligence agencies [OF ANY NATION] would NEVER assassinate the leader of another country. That's just CRAZY!

anyone who actually believes that Israel would seriously consider, much less try, to assassinate a US President is:

1. A retard
2. Anti-semitic

That's really it. Because only retardation and an hatred of Jews that borders on Nazi-levels would make one seriously think that this hypothesis has any weight whatsoever.

I met a man when I went to A school at Corry Station. He had this wonderful story to tell all of us about a certain incident involving a certain ship that was attacked by certain planes of a certain country. This story here (new window) The USS Liberty lost 34 people because Israeli jets and torpedo boats attacked it for no reason even when it clearly was flying U.S. colors so don't you dare accuse someone of being retarded or anti-semitic when there is more than ample evidence showing what the Israelis are capable of when they decide to do what the hell they want to do.


Why don't you just calm down?

You're scaring The First Four Black Sabbath Albums. He's feeling unsafe.

The First Four Black Sabbath Albums, please refer to specific examples of anti-Semitism in this thread. That broad-brush shiat went outta style a long time ago.

If you have a problem feeling unsafe, you're living on the wrong planet.
 
2012-01-23 02:18:15 PM

The First Four Black Sabbath Albums: So, I am generally considered a Jew. I don't believe in God. I don't really follow the Jewish religion. But, my mom is Jewish, so I was considered Jewish enough to get a free trip to Israel. There, they tried to fill me with Zionist propaganda. But, I did get to go to a bunch of cool places and eat free food. So, I can't complain.

That being said, the level of anti-Semitism in this thread disturbs me. I'm not talking about being anti-funding for Israel. I'm talking about hatred of Jews. It makes me feel unsafe to be an American knowing there is such open hostility toward Jews. It's disgusting. If you have a problem with religious freedoms, you are living in the wrong country.


Criticizing the editor, who happens to be Jewish, of a newspaper for publishing an article supporting the idea that a foreign intelligence agency should assassinate a sitting U.S. president in the hopes that the Vice President would be more acquiescent to the interests of the foreign intelligence agency's home country = ANTI-SEMITISM.

The world according to The First Four Black Sabbath Albums.
 
2012-01-23 03:01:57 PM

shijjiri: yBatty: Amos Quito: "Stop existing"?I assume you're referring to my suggestion that they assimilate above, correct?as·sim·i·late (new window)1. to take in and incorporate as one's own; absorb: He assimilated many new experiences on his European trip.2. to bring into conformity with the customs, attitudes, etc., of a group, nation, or the like; adapt or adjust: to assimilate the new immigrants.How does that translate to "stop existing"?[www.startrek.com image 320x240]As I said earlier, it's hard to know if you are serious, but you definitely seem to operate from this strange pessimistic not particularly progressive devalue the individual or small groups for the good of the community view of the world.Do you believe you have any more right to live than an Iranian? Than an Israeli? Than a Russian? Than another American?There are over 72,000,000 civilians in Iran, 7.7 million in Tehran alone. Right now we are engaged in a non-violent assault that will impact every last one of them for the rest of their lives. We're destroying their savings, their hopes for retirement and their dreams on a wholesale basis. We're doing this for a reason that our secretary of defense, senior members of the IAEA and Israeli intelligence have confirmed to be false. We know Iran is NOT actively trying to develop a nuclear weapon.Right now the Israeli prime minister Netanyahu continues pressing to go beyond that, even if his own military may disapprove. (new window)Do you honestly believe the paranoia of one rogue state makes it okay to machine gun down a father in front of his wife and child? (new window)I harbor no ill will for Israel or any Jewish persons, but cannot in good conscious as a human being continue to support their behavior as 'for the greater good'.


Hey, I would answer your question if I knew what you were asking.

Amos Quito seems to be of the opinion, and my apologies to him if I have this wrong and I probably do, that all cultures, creeds, religions, ethnicities, etc., need to assimilate into one larger one, and that not to, to hold onto cultural differences, religious differences, regional differences, ethnic differences quite literally threatens the planet at this time. We all need to assimilate, but assimilation does not mean ceasing to exist.

In response and in rebuttal, I post a picture of Locutus of Borg, Resistance is Futile, Prepare to Assimilate. Elsewhere I point to modern criticism of the "melting pot" metaphor, suggesting that many people believe the uh, "tossed salad" metaphor is a more interesting dish.

And now, somehow, I think, you are saying that means I think I have more right to exist that Iranians, Israelis, and Russians. And my feeling is, you think I am somehow arrogant and selfish if not worse for thinking that.

Do I have that right?

What are you saying?
 
2012-01-23 03:10:49 PM

The First Four Black Sabbath Albums: So, I am generally considered a Jew. I don't believe in God. I don't really follow the Jewish religion. But, my mom is Jewish, so I was considered Jewish enough to get a free trip to Israel. There, they tried to fill me with Zionist propaganda. But, I did get to go to a bunch of cool places and eat free food. So, I can't complain.

That being said, the level of anti-Semitism in this thread disturbs me. I'm not talking about being anti-funding for Israel. I'm talking about hatred of Jews. It makes me feel unsafe to be an American knowing there is such open hostility toward Jews. It's disgusting. If you have a problem with religious freedoms, you are living in the wrong country.



So you don't believe in god, aren't religious and the only real "connection" you have to Judaism is that your mom is Jewish and you got a free Zionization Propaganda course in Israel - yet you feel "unsafe" because people dare to criticize the ethnocentric, clannish (and sometimes traitorous) behavior of certain American Jews?

Seems to me that your problem is one of identity, and that your solution is simple: Stop identifying yourself as a "Jew", stop telling everyone that you're a Jew, refuse to be dragged into the shiatstorms that the Zionists stir up and simply start acting like a Human American who is interested in furthering the best interests of Humans in general and Americans in particular - and encourage other "Jews" to do the same.

Problem solved. No?
 
2012-01-23 03:21:50 PM

Amos Quito: So you don't believe in god, aren't religious and the only real "connection" you have to Judaism is that your mom is Jewish and you got a free Zionization Propaganda course in Israel - yet you feel "unsafe" because people dare to criticize the ethnocentric, clannish (and sometimes traitorous) behavior of certain American Jews?


I think he might feel unsafe because peopel like you choose to apply standards of Orthodox jews (a minority) to most jews, and have no problem conflating Israeli law with the standards of most jews.

They are rejected AS JEWS, and if you don't thing that means something in Jewish culture, you're wrong.

They are rejected AS JEWS by other Jews, and do not qualify AS JEWS under Israel's Law of Return. And making a "proper" Orthodox conversion is no simple matter - and even then converts are not recognized as such by many Jews. Look it up.
:
 
2012-01-23 03:29:53 PM

Amos Quito: Seems to me that your problem is one of identity, and that your solution is simple: Stop identifying yourself as a "Jew", stop telling everyone that you're a Jew, refuse to be dragged into the shiatstorms that the Zionists stir up and simply start acting like a Human American who is interested in furthering the best interests of Humans in general and Americans in particular - and encourage other "Jews" to do the same.


So Amos, is this your prescription for yourself and for everyone?

That the Irish don't identify as Irish, the Catholic as Catholic, the Iranians as Iranian, the Muslims as Muslim, the queer as queer, the feminist as feminist, blacks as black?

Since you seem to prescribe for us what we should believe and how we should act in these issues, will you tell us what your ethnic, religious, and cultural background is? So that we can better understand literally where you come from and what you are going to give up?

Or is this only a prescription for the Jews?
 
2012-01-23 03:52:21 PM
The President's name is Barry Soetoro. Now you know why he can't release his school records and college transcripts, etc.

Furthermore, have people forgotten about the connection between the Fort Hood shooter and the President? The (Muslim) shooter had been at the White House only 3 or 4 months prior to the shooting.

/just sayin'
 
2012-01-23 03:59:02 PM

Tatsuma: Weaver95: it's past time to re-evaluate our relationship with Israel.

WHY.

One Jewish-American man, in America, in an American newspaper, wrote an incredibly stupid op-ed.

How is that in ANY way related to the Government of Israel?


It doesn't matter, being Israel's "bodyguard" is doing nothing but getting us in trouble, and they keep pushing the bounds of our "relationship", constantly doing the same shiat they complain about the Pali's doing i, and pulling crap like insisting on the right to bomb nuclear programs wherever THEY want, while refusing to admit whether they DO or DON'T have nuke weapons. They're like the little kid who has an older brother intentionally starting fights because they know the older brother will step in for them. I'm tired of these games. I don't give two shiats about someone's religion, I have no problem with Jews, but the actual nation of Israel has done nothing but piss me off...
 
2012-01-23 04:02:04 PM

doglover: At least they DID offer up an apology.


Well then, THAT makes it all right... ;-)
 
2012-01-23 04:03:27 PM

Amos Quito: Profedius: They should wait a few more months so that there is little chance the democrat candidate that would replace Obama could win the election. Personally I just want to see Obama lose and lose big.


Why?

Is he "bad for the Jews"?


No I don't like his line of thought he seems to think it is the reasonability for the majority to support the failures of the minority and I am speaking from a numbers point of view and not a racial one. He also seems to desire large government with increased control. Obama also lacks the ability to demonstrate real leadership and instead passes the responsibility on to others preferring to take a less active role. I think Obama is bad for anyone who wants to improve their situation and his ideas destroy the lives of anyone who has improved themselves.
 
2012-01-23 04:16:42 PM

Jacobin: Weaver95: He claimed ordering an assassination of President Obama could be one of three ways to protect the people of Israel.

it's past time to re-evaluate our relationship with Israel.

Look. America's politicians are nothing more than prostitutes. Israel is just one of their Johns. They've pretty much got congress in the bag for a few measly ten of millions in "contributions".


if US is a ho and israel is a dick, so who is the pimp?
 
2012-01-23 04:19:57 PM

Mugato: LiteWerk: In a multitude of ways, President Obama has revealed to the US and the world that he is not, in fact, a Christian

How is he any less Christian than any other President?


"Ye will know them by their fruits" is probablt NOT a reference to Fruit of the Looms.
 
2012-01-23 04:29:35 PM

SuperNinjaToad: Jacobin: Weaver95: He claimed ordering an assassination of President Obama could be one of three ways to protect the people of Israel.

it's past time to re-evaluate our relationship with Israel.

Look. America's politicians are nothing more than prostitutes. Israel is just one of their Johns. They've pretty much got congress in the bag for a few measly ten of millions in "contributions".


if US is a ho and israel is a dick, so who is the pimp?


Campaign directors: The Secret Pimps
 
2012-01-23 06:41:16 PM
lh3.googleusercontent.com

/i would never be so elated to have been wrong
 
2012-01-23 07:11:42 PM

404 page not found: Criticizing the editor, who happens to be Jewish, of a newspaper for publishing an article supporting the idea that a foreign intelligence agency should assassinate a sitting U.S. president in the hopes that the Vice President would be more acquiescent to the interests of the foreign intelligence agency's home country = ANTI-SEMITISM.

The world according to The First Four Black Sabbath Albums.


Yep, I didn't claim any of that at all. But, if it helps you to feel smart by attacking an argument that was never made, by all means, go for it.

Anyway, it bugs me when people wildly mischaracterize what I say. So, your troll was successful. But, it only works once. I'm gonna go ahead and block you.
 
2012-01-23 07:16:15 PM

Amos Quito: So you don't believe in god, aren't religious and the only real "connection" you have to Judaism is that your mom is Jewish and you got a free Zionization Propaganda course in Israel - yet you feel "unsafe" because people dare to criticize the ethnocentric, clannish (and sometimes traitorous) behavior of certain American Jews?

Seems to me that your problem is one of identity, and that your solution is simple: Stop identifying yourself as a "Jew", stop telling everyone that you're a Jew, refuse to be dragged into the shiatstorms that the Zionists stir up and simply start acting like a Human American who is interested in furthering the best interests of Humans in general and Americans in particular - and encourage other "Jews" to do the same.

Problem solved. No?


I'm sorry. I didn't know you had to be a member of a group to advocate for them. Should I join the Jew-haters? Should I go burn a cross in my Jewish mother's lawn?

I think as you mature you'll learn people are more nuanced than your narrow view of the world would have you believe.
 
2012-01-23 08:04:09 PM
Sir Roderick Glossop:

Tatsuma: That's not how it works. I see, and every other Jew who knows what he's talking about, considers a real convert according to Halacha just as Jewish as anyone else.

You ignored my question earlier so I'll ask it again: Are reform and conservative converts "real"? Or are only converts to fundamentalist (aka "Orthodox") sects "real"?


I'll take your deafening silence as my answer then.

/don't believe I'm on your ignore list
 
2012-01-24 07:23:22 AM

Sir Roderick Glossop: I'll take your deafening silence as my answer then.


you should take it as 'having a life out of Fark'

to answer your question, however, no they are not considered to be actual converts. If your definition of Judaism that follows Jewish Law is fundamentalist, then Judaism has always been fundamentalist then.
 
2012-01-24 01:40:10 PM

Tatsuma: If your definition of Judaism that follows Jewish Law is fundamentalist, then Judaism has always been fundamentalist then.


Well how convenient for you that you and the other fundamentalists know the precise interpretation of the law while everyone else is wrong. It's a good thing that it's you guys telling the government over there who is a "real" Jew.

/nothing to criticize there
//no sir, nothing at all
///I'm sure the reform and conservative people are happy with your burgeoning theocracy
 
2012-01-25 01:58:08 AM

Sir Roderick Glossop: Well how convenient for you that you and the other fundamentalists know the precise interpretation of the law while everyone else is wrong. It's a good thing that it's you guys telling the government over there who is a "real" Jew.


Well there were only 'fundamentalists' until around 150 years ago in Germany. Yes, out of 3334 or such years of Jewish History, the Reform movement only arrived on the scene 150 years ago, and really only crystallised as a movement about 130 years ago. Yes, that's less than 5% of Jewish history where there ever was such a movement.

Do you know when they began to say that children of a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother was Jewish? 1983, in America. It was mostly rejected elsewhere as well at first (still is in many places).

So you'll forgive the rest of us if we don't care much for two American-based movements* that will have disappeared in 50 years because they cannot keep their youth, most of them who are not even Jewish after two generations.

*notice I said movements, not Jews. I care about those Jews, which is why I don't care for those movements.

Sir Roderick Glossop: It's a good thing that it's you guys telling the government over there who is a "real" Jew.


It's funny, because Israelis do not care about the reform or conservative movements. They have absolutely no grip in Israel, and they are absolutely not making headways. Do you know why? Because, to quote Shlomo Avineri "The synagogue I don't go to is Orthodox".

That's the reality of Israeli secular Jews. They do not go to synagogue, certainly not on a regular basis outside of holidays, but when they do, they couldn't care less for reform and conservative moments centers. They'll go to an actual synagogue and live Judaism the way it was always lived, even if for a day.
 
2012-01-25 04:39:23 PM
Tatsuma:
I hear you, and it I appreciate learning more about your perspective on the reform and conservative movements. I think you are minimizing them, though, and at your peril. Pissing off American Jews isn't a good policy for Israel. And telling the majority of American Jews that they aren't "really Jews" or are "secular" because they don't agree with a literalist reading of things is likely to piss them off. Moreover, this kind of thing really does open Israel up to criticism that it edging closer to theocracy.

I really don't think it is incumbent on you or your co-religionists to like or respect the choices other people make (that kind of flies in the face of the freedom of religion thing I think is important here). I do think that codifying those prejudices in secular law is problematic.
 
2012-01-25 07:25:38 PM

Bathia_Mapes: Tatsuma: Indubitably: Excuse me?

Um.

I call serious foul.

Mr. President? Please don't let them get away with this.

That's a threat.

Irrevocable.

Period.

and now

we have disco

vere

d

bauer's new

alt

Nope. Indubitably isn't ANYONE'S alt. He's an honorable person who does not resort to such tactics.


Wow, thanks, yo, BM.

Love back 'atcha...

;)
 
2012-01-25 07:27:27 PM

Amos Quito: Bathia_Mapes: Tatsuma: Indubitably: Excuse me?

Um.

I call serious foul.

Mr. President? Please don't let them get away with this.

That's a threat.

Irrevocable.

Period.

and now

we have disco

vere

d

bauer's new

alt

Nope. Indubitably isn't ANYONE'S alt. He's an honorable person who does not resort to such tactics.


Indubitably.


You too, AQ, thanks for punctuating the point.

You rock!

;)
 
2012-01-25 07:30:07 PM

Sir Roderick Glossop: Tatsuma:
I hear you, and it I appreciate learning more about your perspective on the reform and conservative movements. I think you are minimizing them, though, and at your peril. Pissing off American Jews isn't a good policy for Israel. And telling the majority of American Jews that they aren't "really Jews" or are "secular" because they don't agree with a literalist reading of things is likely to piss them off. Moreover, this kind of thing really does open Israel up to criticism that it edging closer to theocracy.

I really don't think it is incumbent on you or your co-religionists to like or respect the choices other people make (that kind of flies in the face of the freedom of religion thing I think is important here). I do think that codifying those prejudices in secular law is problematic.


Here-here.

Quite frankly, religious animosity is old news, yo.

Grow to new or shrink and shrivel...

;)

P.S. Heh!
 
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