TFA: "Companies once felt an obligation to support American workers, even when it wasn't the best financial choice," said Betsey Stevenson, the chief economist at the Labor Department until last September. "That's disappeared. Profits and efficiency have trumped generosity."

It wasn't profitable to ship those jobs to other countries until the passage of the bipartisan free trade agreements that removed the financial penalties for shipping jobs out of the country.

You can tell you are about to be bent over without lube when both the Democrats and Republicans completely agree on free trade agreements.

However, it's worked out so well for their obscenely wealthy masters.

BullBearMS: TFA: "Companies once felt an obligation to support American workers, even when it wasn't the best financial choice," said Betsey Stevenson, the chief economist at the Labor Department until last September. "That's disappeared. Profits and efficiency have trumped generosity."

It wasn't profitable to ship those jobs to other countries until the passage of the bipartisan free trade agreements that removed the financial penalties for shipping jobs out of the country.

You can tell you are about to be bent over without lube when both the Democrats and Republicans completely agree on free trade agreements.

However, it's worked out so well for their obscenely wealthy masters.

Without free trade how many phones would Apple have exported?

When a iPhone made in China is sold in Europe the profit comes back to the US. By all means put up a walled garden around the US, and watch the many American multinationals go bankrupt when their overseas business disappears.

Maybe this explains why productivity in China is higher than the US.

The ironically named Steve Jobs knew Coolies would be so inexpensive and he liked that idea.

I saw this article yesterday and tried to come up with a good headline, but got sidetracked. I am listening this morning to a program on Detroit (pops) and a group of people rehash Utopian ideals of, among other things, "jobs" and "work."

I also heard a story this week on NPR about the first "secret" capitalist farming collective in China and their productivity increase.

I don't have any great answers, or even a witty observation today.

I just thought the article juxtaposed to the program I was listening to was interesting.

/Non sequitur meme comment goes here

HotIgneous Intruder: The ironically named Steve Jobs knew Coolies would be so inexpensive and he liked that idea.

Funny vote for use of 'Coolies'

Mr. Jobs's reply was unambiguous. "Those jobs aren't coming back," he said, according to another dinner guest.

This is the guy everyone was so fondly eulogizing a short time ago.

BullBearMS: You can tell you are about to be bent over without lube when both the Democrats and Republicans completely agree on free trade agreements.

When they agree on just about anything. SOPA enjoyed bipartisan support until the protesting got too loud.

I fear from these candidates continuously talking about creating jobs and that government regulation is squashing them, corporations are people etc. Its just one big fat lie. They want less regulation to ship more jobs out of the country and make more money for themselves. Why cant anyone else see this?

FTA: "A foreman immediately roused 8,000 workers inside the company's dormitories, according to the executive. Each employee was given a biscuit and a cup of tea, guided to a workstation and within half an hour started a 12-hour shift fitting glass screens into beveled frames. Within 96 hours, the plant was producing over 10,000 iPhones a day."

The thing that frightens me far more than what this forecasts for the American economy is the fact that American businesses are so fulsome in their praise for this...horrifying reality. The Daily Show had a story about FoxConn a few days ago detailing the grueling working conditions of these factory towns, and it sounded like a corporatist's wet dream - absolute, unfettered control over every inch of an employee's life, right down to who they can socialize with, all for thirty cents an hour.

The money-boys love this way too much. And the only way they'll bring jobs back to the states is if they get permission to start treating their employees as brutally as their subcontractors treat theirs. That's the most horrifying thing I take from this.

Remember Michelle Bachmann's assertion that if we lowered the minimum wage to a dollar, we'd have 100% employment? The bit that sucks is that she's probably right.

A lot of the comments on that page seem to get it. But a lot seem to live in a fantasy world where the alternative to Apple (and others) making their stuff in China or Korea is all those jobs magically coming to the US and the company being just as successful and profitable as it is now. The actual alternative is Apple (and the rest) either being a shadow of their current size and profitability or going under altogether. Apple employ 43,000 people in the US, many the high value engineers, developers and managers. Protectionism wouldn't add the manufacturing jobs to that total. It would cost most if not all of those jobs.

To put the "lets put up import duties to protect American jobs!" crowd, this is what you are actually suggesting.

"Hey rest of the world! We're not going to take it any more! We're going to put huge tariffs on your stuff! The free ride is over suckers! On a totally unrelated note, you're still going to buy lots of stuff from us, right? We're still good?"

Let me know how that works out for you....

We're farked.

Man the lifeboats. As soon as I finish my PhD I'm leaving this shiathole country.

"executives believe the vast scale of overseas factories as well as the flexibility, diligence and industrial skills of foreign workers have so outpaced their American counterparts that "Made in the U.S.A." is no longer a viable option for most Apple products."

In other words, we're in an economic war and the US citizens are losing.
Apple won't be the only corporation turning on us.

Flint Ironstag: When a iPhone made in China is sold in Europe the profit comes back to the US

And if you made the iPhone in the US the overall benefit to the US would be far greater. Plus the cost of shipping the phones to Europe would be a lot lot lower.

BullBearMS: It wasn't profitable to ship those jobs to other countries until the passage of the bipartisan free trade agreements that removed the financial penalties for shipping jobs out of the country.

A lot of the jobs overseas now making stuff, weren't shipped there, a new product is developed and a production contract is signed with an overseas corporation.

Is America farked because Apple makes crap in China, or is America farked because millions of people in America who cannot afford a $500 and $100 dollar / month payment are still buying them?

ZAZ: The Chinese government had agreed to underwrite costs for numerous industries, and those subsidies had trickled down to the glass-cutting factory.

SOCIALISM!!11!

Oh, wait.

Meanwhile, in the US, we keep subsidising corn, because it's so cheap and easy to grow without price supports it wouldn't be worth growing.

WhyteRaven74: Flint Ironstag: When a iPhone made in China is sold in Europe the profit comes back to the US

And if you made the iPhone in the US the overall benefit to the US would be far greater. Plus the cost of shipping the phones to Europe would be a lot lot lower.



But since the iPhone will cost twice as much to manufacturer you'll be selling a lot less of them. By a huge amount. Apple used to build in the US. They nearly went bankrupt and had to be rescued by Microsoft.

Flint Ironstag: BullBearMS: TFA: "Companies once felt an obligation to support American workers, even when it wasn't the best financial choice," said Betsey Stevenson, the chief economist at the Labor Department until last September. "That's disappeared. Profits and efficiency have trumped generosity."

It wasn't profitable to ship those jobs to other countries until the passage of the bipartisan free trade agreements that removed the financial penalties for shipping jobs out of the country.

You can tell you are about to be bent over without lube when both the Democrats and Republicans completely agree on free trade agreements.

However, it's worked out so well for their obscenely wealthy masters.

Without free trade how many phones would Apple have exported?

When a iPhone made in China is sold in Europe the profit comes back to the US. By all means put up a walled garden around the US, and watch the many American multinationals go bankrupt when their overseas business disappears.

Maybe this explains why productivity in China is higher than the US.

The profit doesn't come back to the US it stays in overseas accounts so they don't have to pay US taxes on it. The majority of Apple's $90b in cash is held overseas.

Flint Ironstag: But since the iPhone will cost twice as much to manufacturer

The per unit labor cost of something like an iPhone wouldn't be much, would be less than some of the parts of the phone itself. Plus shipping those to be sold in the US would vastly cheaper.

Flint Ironstag: They nearly went bankrupt and had to be rescued by Microsoft.

Oh and that was to completely losing their way and having stuff like Apple clones.

Flint Ironstag: WhyteRaven74: Flint Ironstag: When a iPhone made in China is sold in Europe the profit comes back to the US

And if you made the iPhone in the US the overall benefit to the US would be far greater. Plus the cost of shipping the phones to Europe would be a lot lot lower.



But since the iPhone will cost twice as much to manufacturer you'll be selling a lot less of them. By a huge amount. Apple used to build in the US. They nearly went bankrupt and had to be rescued by Microsoft.

Actually the article says that labor cost to assemble the phones isn't a deciding factor because the parts make up the majority of the cost.

bill_01915:
The profit doesn't come back to the US it stays in overseas accounts so they don't have to pay US taxes on it. The majority of Apple's $90b in cash is held overseas.

So they just leave it overseas? Forever? Seems a waste...

/Sarcasm off.

t3knomanser: ZAZ: The Chinese government had agreed to underwrite costs for numerous industries, and those subsidies had trickled down to the glass-cutting factory.

SOCIALISM!!11!

Oh, wait.

Meanwhile, in the US, we keep subsidising corn, because it's so cheap and easy to grow without price supports it wouldn't be worth growing.

Page 3 said the factory was building a new wing and adding worker housing just in case they got the contract. They hired engineers and started producing prototypes to show in order to win the contract. That's a huge investment that wouldn't be possible without Chinese government subsidies.

bill_01915:

Actually the article says that labor cost to assemble the phones isn't a deciding factor because the parts make up the majority of the cost.

So Steve Jobs didn't know what he was talking about then? He could easily have bought production back to the US and not suffered? Check.

Maybe now he'd dead Apple will get a CEO who actually knows what he's talking about.

Flint Ironstag: Without free trade how many phones would Apple have exported?

Without free trade agreements, manufacturing jobs wouldn't have moved to countries where our corporate masters can avoid paying a living wage so as to maximize profits.

The richest Americans are buying whatever laws they decide will accelerate their accumulation of wealth at the expense of everyone else and both political parties are subservient to those goals.

If they hadn't moved the jobs to China, who in China could afford an iPhone?

Have you noticed that American retail establishments are closing stores in America and opening them in China where the jobs are?

bill_01915: t3knomanser: ZAZ: The Chinese government had agreed to underwrite costs for numerous industries, and those subsidies had trickled down to the glass-cutting factory.

SOCIALISM!!11!

Oh, wait.

Meanwhile, in the US, we keep subsidising corn, because it's so cheap and easy to grow without price supports it wouldn't be worth growing.

Page 3 said the factory was building a new wing and adding worker housing just in case they got the contract. They hired engineers and started producing prototypes to show in order to win the contract. That's a huge investment that wouldn't be possible without Chinese government subsidies.


That was his point ( I think)....and I guess the one of the ironies of Obama asking the question.

These corporate entities are all whoring it out for these types of subsidies, doesnt matter where they come from. Same thing as tax breaks to build a car plant in the South.

Flint Ironstag: bill_01915:
The profit doesn't come back to the US it stays in overseas accounts so they don't have to pay US taxes on it. The majority of Apple's $90b in cash is held overseas.

So they just leave it overseas? Forever? Seems a waste...

/Sarcasm off.

No, just waiting for another tax holiday so they can bring it home at 0% instead of 35%. Republicans pushed for that last year. No doubt it will come up next Jan if Obama loses in Nov.

//didn't want to go there and turn this into a political thread

Flint Ironstag: He could easily have bought production back to the US and not suffered

Yes he could have. Should've started production here.

Flint Ironstag: bill_01915:

Actually the article says that labor cost to assemble the phones isn't a deciding factor because the parts make up the majority of the cost.

So Steve Jobs didn't know what he was talking about then? He could easily have bought production back to the US and not suffered? Check.

Maybe now he'd dead Apple will get a CEO who actually knows what he's talking about.

No, he's absolutely right. Free market US corporations can't compete on a level playing field with subsidized corporations that can force their workers to do 12+ hr shifts 7 days per week.

It's more about money for executives and shareholders than anything else. What a surprise, people who live in a shiat country with no labor laws can be made to work themselves to death for pennies.

bill_01915: Flint Ironstag: bill_01915:
The profit doesn't come back to the US it stays in overseas accounts so they don't have to pay US taxes on it. The majority of Apple's $90b in cash is held overseas.

So they just leave it overseas? Forever? Seems a waste...

/Sarcasm off.

No, just waiting for another tax holiday so they can bring it home at 0% instead of 35%. Republicans pushed for that last year. No doubt it will come up next Jan if Obama loses in Nov.

//didn't want to go there and turn this into a political thread

0%? When did that happen?

WhyteRaven74: Flint Ironstag: He could easily have bought production back to the US and not suffered

Yes he could have. Should've started production here.

So you're saying he didn't know what he was talking about?

Flint Ironstag: bill_01915:
The profit doesn't come back to the US it stays in overseas accounts so they don't have to pay US taxes on it. The majority of Apple's $90b in cash is held overseas.

So they just leave it overseas? Forever? Seems a waste...

No, as the article mentions, the our Corporations are sitting on piles of money overseas and are working towards getting Congress to grant another "one time" tax holiday so they can bring the money into the states without paying the regular tax rate on it.

One of the solutions to the jobs crisis being proposed by some of our Congressional leaders and lobbied for aggressively by some of the country's richest corporations is a rehash of an old experiment: enacting a repatriation tax holiday that would temporarily allow U.S.-based multinational companies to bring home profits they currently hold overseas at a 5.25 percent tax rate, instead of the usual 35 percent corporate tax rate. Under current tax law, multinational companies generally pay no U.S. corporate taxes on foreign income until those profits are brought back to the U.S.

The last time this was tried, under a 2004 Bush Administration plan, it didn't work out that way. Instead, as CBPP points out, "The evidence shows that firms mostly used the repatriated earnings not to invest in U.S. jobs or growth but for purposes that Congress sought to prohibit, such as repurchasing their own stock and paying bigger dividends to their shareholders. Moreover, many firms actually laid off large numbers of U.S. workers even as they reaped multi-billion-dollar benefits from the tax holiday and passed them on to shareholders." Many economists and scholars believe that if corporations get their way and get another repatriation holiday, history will repeat itself-and once again the corporations and their shareholders, not American workers, families, and children, will be the only winners.

Of course there is bipartisan support for allowing the obscenely wealthy to dodge their fair share of the tax burden.

Can everyone stop voting for the two corporate owned political parties already?

bill_01915: Flint Ironstag: bill_01915:

Actually the article says that labor cost to assemble the phones isn't a deciding factor because the parts make up the majority of the cost.

So Steve Jobs didn't know what he was talking about then? He could easily have bought production back to the US and not suffered? Check.

Maybe now he'd dead Apple will get a CEO who actually knows what he's talking about.

No, he's absolutely right. Free market US corporations can't compete on a level playing field with subsidized corporations that can force their workers to do 12+ hr shifts 7 days per week.

Which is exactly my point. Apple could wave the flag and bring production back to the US. But they would then be totally unable to compete with all the other companies that would still manufacture in China, Korea, Taiwan etc. Hence Apple would see a huge drop in sales, profit and jobs. Possibly even go under.

Not the fairy tale "All those jobs would be moved here and nothing else would change" crap some people believe.

And if you put up barriers to trade to compensate for this then everyone else would do the same. Now Apple's market is the US, er, that's it.

Flint Ironstag: bill_01915: Flint Ironstag: bill_01915:
The profit doesn't come back to the US it stays in overseas accounts so they don't have to pay US taxes on it. The majority of Apple's $90b in cash is held overseas.

So they just leave it overseas? Forever? Seems a waste...

/Sarcasm off.

No, just waiting for another tax holiday so they can bring it home at 0% instead of 35%. Republicans pushed for that last year. No doubt it will come up next Jan if Obama loses in Nov.

//didn't want to go there and turn this into a political thread

0%? When did that happen?

There was a tax holiday under the Bush administration - 5% I think. The republicans advocated for another as part of a jobs bill last summer, and some of them were advocating for 0%.

bill_01915: Flint Ironstag: bill_01915:

Actually the article says that labor cost to assemble the phones isn't a deciding factor because the parts make up the majority of the cost.

So Steve Jobs didn't know what he was talking about then? He could easily have bought production back to the US and not suffered? Check.

Maybe now he'd dead Apple will get a CEO who actually knows what he's talking about.

No, he's absolutely right. Free market US corporations can't compete on a level playing field with subsidized corporations that can force their workers to do 12+ hr shifts 7 days per week.

If you are sitting on damn near a hundred billion Dollars in cash, as is the case with Apple, you can afford to pay American manufacturing workers a living wage.

However, that wouldn't absolutely maximize the rate at which the rich get richer. After all, isn't that the most important thing?

bill_01915: There was a tax holiday under the Bush administration - 5% I think. The republicans advocated for another as part of a jobs bill last summer, and some of them were advocating for 0%.

That was the Republicans and the Democrats. After the recent SOPA/PIPA and NDAA nonsense you can stop pretending that this sort of bullshiat isn't completely bipartisan.

We in the west have really gone and farked things up.

I'm originally from a town in England called Northampton that is famous for making shoes. It still has a small number of shoemakers making seriously nice and expensive shoes that cost £200 ($300) a pair.

When you go to the small towns around Northampton, you read stories and hear oral histories about those towns, and how you didn't just have shoemakers, but companies like tanners (who treat and colour the leather) and injection moulders (who make things like heels). When you're dealing with manufacturing, it's sensible to have all the associated industries close to each other to reduce time and costs. When the shoe makers went elsewhere (like Hong Kong), all those supporting industries went to the wall.

The reason I say that we have farked things up is that we have imposed the costs and regulations on business that meant that they started doing this. We have created a belief in people that they are entitled to all sorts of things that they simply aren't.

People can take a view that people shouldn't have to live and work like Foxconn workers, but the fact is that labour is a competitive market. If they're prepared to do what you don't, then you aren't going to have a job. And lobbying government to regulate this isn't going to make any difference - there's far more people who want a new shiny iPad2.

Even if we now equalised costs and rights, we still won't get those jobs back, because now the manufacturing is concentrated in that part of the world. The time delay would be a big hit on Corning.

Macular Degenerate: We're farked.

Man the lifeboats. As soon as I finish my PhD I'm leaving this shiathole country.

So you're going to China for a job?

Flint Ironstag: Without free trade how many phones would Apple have exported?

When a iPhone made in China is sold in Europe the profit comes back to the US. By all means put up a walled garden around the US, and watch the many American multinationals go bankrupt when their overseas business disappears.

Let's find out. We tried this free trade thing and were promised jobs that never materialized. Time to try something different.

BullBearMS:

If you are sitting on damn near a hundred billion Dollars in cash, as is the case with Apple, you can afford to pay American manufacturing workers a living wage.

However, that wouldn't absolutely maximize the rate at which the rich get richer. After all, isn't that the most important thing?

700,000 people are employed making Apple stuff, according to TFA (not including US workers).
Lets be really generous and assume it would only take twice as many to do the same amount of work in the US, thanks to labor laws etc.

£100billion divided by 1.4 million workers.

$70k each. So including taxes, healthcare etc that $100 billion would be gone in a year or two.

Then what?

Who is going to pay those salaries now that the cash is gone? Put up prices? Less sales and income. Trade barriers against foreign competition? No more exports. Lowers sales and income.

Great plan....

Flint Ironstag: bill_01915: Flint Ironstag: bill_01915:

Actually the article says that labor cost to assemble the phones isn't a deciding factor because the parts make up the majority of the cost.

So Steve Jobs didn't know what he was talking about then? He could easily have bought production back to the US and not suffered? Check.

Maybe now he'd dead Apple will get a CEO who actually knows what he's talking about.

No, he's absolutely right. Free market US corporations can't compete on a level playing field with subsidized corporations that can force their workers to do 12+ hr shifts 7 days per week.

Which is exactly my point. Apple could wave the flag and bring production back to the US. But they would then be totally unable to compete with all the other companies that would still manufacture in China, Korea, Taiwan etc. Hence Apple would see a huge drop in sales, profit and jobs. Possibly even go under.

Not the fairy tale "All those jobs would be moved here and nothing else would change" crap some people believe.

And if you put up barriers to trade to compensate for this then everyone else would do the same. Now Apple's market is the US, er, that's it.

So more Americans would have good paying jobs and Apple shareholders would only be multimillionaires instead of multimillionaires. And this is bad because...?

Back in the 80s I believed in free trade. I was naive enough to be free trade and fair trade were one and the same. They're not. Free trade with countries that actively stack the deck against us is killing the American dream.

DrewCurtisJr: Flint Ironstag: Without free trade how many phones would Apple have exported?

When a iPhone made in China is sold in Europe the profit comes back to the US. By all means put up a walled garden around the US, and watch the many American multinationals go bankrupt when their overseas business disappears.

Let's find out. We tried this free trade thing and were promised jobs that never materialized. Time to try something different.

We were promised a cure for cancer. That didn't work, so lets give up all research. Right?

/And those Foxcon workers support Apple who employ 43.000 US workers in the US. It did bring jobs. Without those Chinese factories Apple would not be able to employ 43,000 people in the US.

farkeruk: The reason I say that we have farked things up is that we have imposed the costs and regulations on business that meant that they started doing this.

Yes, five-day work weeks and environmental protections have really farked things up. It really sucks having some time off to rest and being able to breathe clean air and enjoy the outdoors without worrying about mercury and lead and gawd knows what other persistent contaminants in the soil and drinking water.

/Know how I know you've probably never worked 12-hour factory shifts for days on end, let alone on a permanent basis?

farkeruk: People can take a view that people shouldn't have to live and work like Foxconn workers, but the fact is that labour is a competitive market.

No, labor has been turned into a competitive market by the world's obscenely wealthy.

They have paid for free trade agreements that allow them to move the manufacturing jobs to locations where they can pay slave labor rates and completely ignore environmental concerns.

This maximizes the rate at which they get richer while destroying the middle class who depended on those manufacturing jobs for decades for their livelihood.

BullBearMS: bill_01915: There was a tax holiday under the Bush administration - 5% I think. The republicans advocated for another as part of a jobs bill last summer, and some of them were advocating for 0%.

That was the Republicans and the Democrats. After the recent SOPA/PIPA and NDAA nonsense you can stop pretending that this sort of bullshiat isn't completely bipartisan.

True. It was only the left wing extremist democrats who voiced any opposition.

Don't blame me.
I voted for Ross Perot.

/Giant sucking sound, how work it

bill_01915:

Back in the 80s I believed in free trade. I was naive enough to be free trade and fair trade were one and the same. They're not. Free trade with countries that actively stack the deck against us is killing the American dream.

If you think the US does not stack the deck just as much as other countries I have a bridge to sell you.

Like Airbus who won the tanker contract. So the US did it again. And again, until Boeing won.