wombatsrus: I've yet to see anyone - media or politician - ask the large companies the tough questions about how they play both sides against the middle. Or how the very companies whose CEOs they seek for ideas on job growth are the ones continuing to move jobs overseas, while requesting more H1B VIsas. Or actually measuring a companies claim that they will add jobs to see if it is really net additional or just moving existing jobs from another state.

BTW, I don't mean to main H1B Visas... but one idea might be to tie it to the employment rate. For a simple example: employment rate under 4%, H1B Visa quotas go up. unemployment rises above 6%, H1B Visa quotas go down.

That will never work, common sense and rational thinking has no place in politics kind sir, and I beg of you to quit putting forth such ideas!

dforkus: Advice to young Americans..

Unless you're getting into Cal Tech, MIT, Carnegie Mellon, or StandfordStanford, don't even think about becoming Computer or Software Engineering as a major....

Even if you manage to get the hot skill, you'll burn out in a few years, and the business will be waiting for a reason to replace you.

Give up..

Think the military, medicine, teaching, or some other large institutional job.

FTFY. Sorry, pet peeve.

/ MSEE '10
// what you say is somewhat true, but I don't know anyone from my alma mater who is hard up for a job

steamingpile: AdamK: sethstorm: steamingpile: Also just in, "flexibility" is the PC term for slavery.

Apple should be ashamed, as should every other computer owner in the world, I mean all those other assholes, not me.....

THIS.

Im not saying everyone gets to order hookers of the internet or get free pot but........what was I saying?

Oh yeah free hookers and pot for all workers!!!!!!

Now that's a job perk I would actually considering taking a paycut for. ;-)

sethstorm: dumbobruni: the United States does not have a free trade deal with China.

Most Favored Nation status, converted to PNTR in the late 90's.

still not free trade.

WhyteRaven74: Plus the cost of shipping the phones to Europe would be a lot lot lower.

Yes, shipping would be lower. So iPhones could be $0.04 cheaper. Except now that we've penalized imports so has the EU, and the iPhone suddenly costs 20% more on the street in Europe. So Apple can either be at a huge price disadvantage to similar phones made in the EU, or they can drop their wholesale price by a much, much larger amount than they saved in shipping.

But hey, as long as you pretend all the effects are unilateral your plan makes perfect sense. And it's not like past examples of low-cost international trade ended centuries-long recurring hostilities and grew the economy of all nations involved. Because if there was some established history of that kind of success you'd sound like an uneducated xenophobe.

struct: for example mandate that a higher share of company stock pockets don't go to overpaid executives but to workers and have a really social safety net if something happens to your job.

You mention Germany, which is think is a fair example. For many companies they require that labor has representation on the company board, for exactly this reason -- it gets the union/labor involved in strategic decisions and out of the "higher wages, less work" death spiral, and it forces the executive management to consider labor as a vital stakeholder with influence over strategy, rather than just a capital asset.

median american income is 26k. Where are you getting this 50k number?

Monkeyhouse Zendo: If we're not going to bring manufacturing jobs home or otherwise find a way to strengthen the middle class then we will need to find some way to address the issue of a significant fraction of the US population being persistently unemployed.

It's called forcing the employers to directly hire on a FTE basis. If they complain about skills, require continuous/on-the-job training of US citizens such that they are always the desired level of skill. In short, mandate that they be treated like long-term investments, not temp-labor/contract/consulting whores.

This would require the bloody & grisly death of every guest worker program in existence, but they are sources of fraud and waste. It would also require the flat-out ban on discrimination of the long-term unemployed, excessively aged, and/or insufficiently skilled. Business would hate having to go this familiar-to-them direction, but it is the only viable path.

Flint Ironstag: On the other hand, Germany is suffering exactly the same problems. Companies like Mercedes, Volkswagen, BMW, Bosch etc have built factories outside Germany to escape their high labor costs. Some in low cost countries like Mercedes in Hungary, Bosch in Spain and VW in Brazil and some in fairly high cost countries like Mercedes and BMW in Alabama in the US.

Shame that there isn't an upwards-regulation agreement to harmonize labor laws, such that this doesn't happen.

dforkus: Advice to young Americans..

Unless you're getting into Cal Tech, MIT, Carnegie Mellon, or Standford, don't even think about becoming Computer or Software Engineering as a major....

Even if you manage to get the hot skill, you'll burn out in a few years, and the business will be waiting for a reason to replace you.

Give up..

Think the military, medicine, teaching, or some other large institutional job.

As a software developer working in a metro area with effective full employment for software developers, I am getting a kick out of this.

Obama could have had a simple solutiion/retort: End the "favored nation" status and tax the crap out of specific goods coming into the US.

Apples products are made overseas, their profits are made here.

way south: Obama could have had a simple solutiion/retort: End the "favored nation" status and tax the crap out of specific goods coming into the US.

Apples products are made overseas, their profits are made here.

THIS.

way south: Obama could have had a simple solutiion/retort: End the "favored nation" status and tax the crap out of specific goods coming into the US.

Apples products are made overseas, their profits are made here.

Yeah, because that would totally help the economy.

We exported about $100 Billion (new window) in goods to China in 2011. I'm sure China would not retaliate in any way, right?

peasandcarrots: Remember Michelle Bachmann's assertion that if we lowered the minimum wage to a dollar, we'd have 100% employment? The bit that sucks is that she's probably right.

She IS absolutely right, but the thing that all of these capitalists are missing is that the life of these workers is just that - work. They work 12, 18, 24 hour shifts, spend most of their 'income' on dorm housing in the factory and send the rest home to momma and poppa in the countryside (the one-child policy means that that one child must support both aging parents). There isn't room in that kind of economics for burger king or paramount or cablevision or any of the other companies that exist here.

Labor unions are coming to China. The employers are guaranteeing that.

All to manufacture an electronic toy upon which pinheads can diddle about with Angry Birds, chatter inanely with one another about nothing, and substitute software for thought.

It's the ultimate achievement of the industrial age.

I think the picture at the top of the article illustrates the American work ethic vs. the Asian/any other country, developing or otherwise work ethic.

Americans - stand in line at a job fair.
Other countries - bum rush the stage to get their resumes in first.

I was watching Anthony Bourdain's show and one of the few profound things ever uttered from his normally sarcastic mouth was this:

"Nobody understands the concept of the American Dream better than a non-American."

GameSprocket: way south: Obama could have had a simple solutiion/retort: End the "favored nation" status and tax the crap out of specific goods coming into the US.

Apples products are made overseas, their profits are made here.

Yeah, because that would totally help the economy.

We exported about $100 Billion (new window) in goods to China in 2011. I'm sure China would not retaliate in any way, right?

Id be willing to bet it pales in comparison to what we imported. Hence the trade imbalance.
I'm not suggesting everything needs to be taxed. But when you are negotiating with a business man who says "you aren't good enough to make these high priced luxury goods, only buy them" then a snappy and obvious retort is needed.
China won't retaliate over such a small thing. Even if they did, other nations are willing to fill the void. Wage slaves can be found anywhere.

They and apple don't do anything to warrant our friendship. Not on this scale.

It's not just cheap labor. It's the greater level of productivity they get for that cheap labor in other countries. Why pay more for less here when they can pay less for more there?

rubi_con_man: Labor unions are coming to China. The employers are guaranteeing that.

China is a perfect example of crony capitalism. If you think the government will allow the workers to unionize, then you don't know anything about China. Any attempt to organize workers will result in jail time, or worse for the organizers. Take a good look at China, If we don't make some radical changes, it's our future.

Oh, and I don't have time to read all the posts, so this may have been said, but the reason that corporations have no loyalty to American workers is that the American consumer could care less where their crap was made. We've all been trained to buy based on price, or other factors that have nothing to do with where something was made, how it was made, or how the workers were treated that made it. If we were given the choice between iCrap made by abused child slave labor for $250, or iCrap made in America by union labor making a fair wage for $500, the American consumer would buy the cheaper iCrap almost every time.

As long as companies try to maximize profits instead of being saticfied with a profitable product created at home, you will have a shrinking economy over time. 15% unemp is nothing. I hope you guys who have been buying canned food and guns have enough bullets to stave off hordes of hungry people.

kregh99: It's not just cheap labor. It's the greater level of productivity they get for that cheap labor in other countries. Why pay more for less here when they can pay less for more there?

Except that isn't true. You're paying for more tyranny and less freedom.

way south: I'm not suggesting everything needs to be taxed. But when you are negotiating with a business terrorist who says "you aren't good enough to make these high priced luxury goods, only buy them" then a snappy and obvious retort is needed.

FTFY

You don't negotiate with terrorists - you neutralize them. It is something our government needs to start learning given all the tools they have.

Plus overseas they dont have to bother with those pesky environmental laws.

Cubansaltyballs: This just in: Slaves work cheaper than non-slaves.

THIS.

Obligatory:

Also, a must 'listen':

Mr. Daisey and the Apple Factory / This American Life Episode (new window)

Brostorm: 50k

I think the original comment said that it would take twice as many US workers to produce what the 700K in China produce, so that number is actually 1.4 million US workers @$25K/yr not 700K US workers @50K/yr

One thing mentioned in the article was that the cost to manufacture an imac that sold for $1500 was $15 in the US, and 6 bucks someplace else and almost down to 4 bucks someplace else. So, they moved manufacturing to someplace where they could save ~$10 per unit. Not mentioned is how much profit per unit is made or what percentage of the total cost is manufacturing cost. Were they making $10 in profit on the imac and doubled it, or were they making $1000 and got a 1% increase in profit from the move? Unknown.
Also mentioned was that moving production of iphones to the US would add $65 to the cost of an iphone.
Would an added 65 dollars really decrease sales in the US? How many of the iphone's sales actually come from retail sales where the extra $65 would be noticed? Would anyone paying retail for an iphone care about an extra $65 or would they just pay it in order to have the correct accessory? If Apple really had to hire 1.4 million people in the US in order to match overseas production, would the Henry Ford effect come into play, and sales actually increase because of the increase in employed people? Would Corning move their plant next to the new US iphone assembly plant just like they did in China, also increasing employment in the area? Who else would move in order to keep supply chains short?

Note that this does not take into consideration environmental laws that would likely affect both plants and increase costs. Nor does it consider where those plants might be located and what it would do to the local economy in that/those areas.

What I see is that maybe Apple's profit of $400K per employee might get cut some. Their share value would likely drop, and the people who see to these sorts of things have WAY too much money tied up in stocks to want to see any of it drop for ANY reason. Mainly, IMO because those people don't see their neighborhoods turning into slums, or their friends losing their jobs and losing everything. They already know they are set for life. I would like to say that if I had 10x enough money to keep me comfy for the rest of my life, I wouldn't mind a bit to see that decrease to 5x enough, but I can't say. I'd probably be just like them.

mitEj: kregh99: It's not just cheap labor. It's the greater level of productivity they get for that cheap labor in other countries. Why pay more for less here when they can pay less for more there?

You do know that per worker productivity in the us is the highest in the world right ?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/03/business/main3228735.shtml

Your talking point is false.

You're only looking at what they produce, not how much they produce vs. how much it costs. Ask apple how much it pays for their Chinese employee's health benefits, 401(k), life insurance. They will happily accept a little less productivity for a whole lot less expense.

You also need to look at the acceleration rate in China and India which is like a goddam freight train vs. America where it's either relatively stagnant or moving far more slowly than those regions. This country needs to prepare itself for a time when it isn't number one anymore, because it's coming.

kregh99: You also need to look at the acceleration rate in China and India which is like a goddam freight train vs. America where it's either relatively stagnant or moving far more slowly than those regions. This country needs to prepare itself for a time when it isn't number one anymore, because it's coming.

That's what the US military and intelligence arms are for, so that moment never happens. If one sets up China up to be the enemy of the US, and base government policy off that, one will have sufficiently prepared for such a moment.

The freight train that might represent the Third World can always be taken out by a sufficiently motivated and superiorly armed First World.