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(The New York Times) Interesting Archaeological discoveries in the Amazon show extensive urban development, which is complete nonsense since we know Columbus created the first cities by burning down all the natives and exploiting them for oil   (nytimes.com) divider line 35
More: Interesting, Amazon, savannas, tropical rain forests, rain forests, rectangles, military dictatorship, University of Kansas, cultivation  
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2746 clicks; posted to Geek » on 21 Jan 2012 at 10:42 AM   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»   |    Get this fabulous T-Shirt and impress the methane out of your friends! shirt it!



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2012-01-21 08:54:15 AM
And I thought Amazon was getting too big when it started selling stuff other than books and music.

oh and pretty trollific headline subby.
 
2012-01-21 09:12:34 AM
The Lost City of Z Link (new window)
 
2012-01-21 09:22:20 AM
No, he mostly just kidnapped and enslaved them. Oh and killed the rest.
 
2012-01-21 09:37:29 AM
'...the western Amazon, previously considered uninhabitable for sophisticated societies partly because of the quality of their soils...' Poor Soil? (new window)
 
2012-01-21 09:38:37 AM
In addition to parts of the Amazon being "much more thickly populated than previously thought," Mr. Mann, the author of "1491," a groundbreaking book about the Americas before the arrival of Columbus, said, "these people purposefully modified their environment in long-lasting ways."
Atlantic 2002

it amazes me how his book is basic and 10 years old, but much of whats in it didn't manage to seep out into the public.
More important are the implications of the new theories for today's ecological battles. Much of the environmental movement is animated, consciously or not, by what William Denevan, a geographer at the University of Wisconsin, calls, polemically, "the pristine myth"-the belief that the Americas in 1491 were an almost unmarked, even Edenic land, "untrammeled by man," in the words of the Wilderness Act of 1964, one of the nation's first and most important environmental laws. As the University of Wisconsin historian William Cronon has written, restoring this long-ago, putatively natural state is, in the view of environmentalists, a task that society is morally bound to undertake. Yet if the new view is correct and the work of humankind was pervasive, where does that leave efforts to restore nature?

The Beni is a case in point. In addition to building up the Beni mounds for houses and gardens, Erickson says, the Indians trapped fish in the seasonally flooded grassland. Indeed, he says, they fashioned dense zigzagging networks of earthen fish weirs between the causeways. To keep the habitat clear of unwanted trees and undergrowth, they regularly set huge areas on fire. Over the centuries the burning created an intricate ecosystem of fire-adapted plant species dependent on native pyrophilia. The current inhabitants of the Beni still burn, although now it is to maintain the savannah for cattle. When we flew over the area, the dry season had just begun, but mile-long lines of flame were already on the march. In the charred areas behind the fires were the blackened spikes of trees-many of them, one assumes, of the varieties that activists fight to save in other parts of Amazonia.
...

His argument was simple but horrific. It is well known that Native Americans had no experience with many European diseases and were therefore immunologically unprepared-"virgin soil," in the metaphor of epidemiologists. What Dobyns realized was that such diseases could have swept from the coastlines initially visited by Europeans to inland areas controlled by Indians who had never seen a white person. The first whites to explore many parts of the Americas may therefore have encountered places that were already depopulated. Indeed, Dobyns argued, they must have done so.


A huge unintential epidemic in the early 1500's that wiped out the western hemisphere on a landscape that was heavily influenced by human agency, left a landscape teeming with the "keystone species' of buffalo, elk, mule deer, etc.

/yes, unintentional in this time period. The first intentional spread of smallpox is possibly dated to Amherst in the late 18th century, centuries after this massive depopulation occurred.
 
2012-01-21 09:41:21 AM
dryknife: '...the western Amazon, previously considered uninhabitable for sophisticated societies partly because of the quality of their soils...' Poor Soil? (new window)

Research on Terra preta is a new angle that is dealing with breaking this old conception.
 
2012-01-21 10:02:44 AM
Party Boy: dryknife: '...the western Amazon, previously considered uninhabitable for sophisticated societies partly because of the quality of their soils...' Poor Soil? (new window)

Research on Terra preta is a new angle that is dealing with breaking this old conception.


And we still don't know how they made that soil. Nobody has come close to it.

Oh, and there's arguable evidence that the Amazon societies died the same way the Mayans did - deforestation exasperated a drought.
 
2012-01-21 10:14:33 AM
GAT_00: And we still don't know how they made that soil. Nobody has come close to it.

i.imgur.com

Not -exactly-, no. Anthropogenic, yes.
 
2012-01-21 10:29:11 AM
Party Boy: GAT_00: And we still don't know how they made that soil. Nobody has come close to it.

[i.imgur.com image 400x300]

Not -exactly-, no. Anthropogenic, yes.


That soil is believed to be human created, not natural.
 
2012-01-21 10:57:20 AM
They found the civilization that Dipshaits^ were copying?
 
2012-01-21 10:57:43 AM
Came for the Mormon bashing. So far nothing. Very sad.
 
2012-01-21 11:01:16 AM
GAT_00: That soil is believed to be human created, not natural.

Right, anthropogenic.
 
2012-01-21 11:02:21 AM
GAT_00 [TotalFark]
2012-01-21 10:02:44 AM
Party Boy: dryknife: '...the western Amazon, previously considered uninhabitable for sophisticated societies partly because of the quality of their soils...' Poor Soil? (new window)

"Research on Terra preta is a new angle that is dealing with breaking this old conception.

And we still don't know how they made that soil. Nobody has come close to it.

Oh, and there's arguable evidence that the Amazon societies died the same way the Mayans did - deforestation exasperated a drought."


Look up "biochar". There is some Australian company making that based upon the Terra Preta theory. I don't know if it is identical but it is very amazing soil.
 
2012-01-21 11:25:08 AM
I'm sorry, I thought the fact that the forests of south America are more or less man-made and managed had been well established by now?
 
2012-01-21 11:29:19 AM
The western hemisphere seems to have been quite populated prior to the discovery by the Europeans. In the time between discovery and returning to populate or colonize many years later the massive population had mostly disappeared. Some believe up to 95% were inadvertently killed disease to which they had no immunities. The Europeans had no idea what they were doing, and had they not brought disease they probably wouldn't have fared very well against assumed huge western population.
 
2012-01-21 11:31:12 AM
Party Boy: GAT_00: That soil is believed to be human created, not natural.

Right, anthropogenic.


Oh, right. I'm not used to reading anthropogenic with soil.
 
2012-01-21 11:50:34 AM
GAT_00: Oh, right. I'm not used to reading anthropogenic with soil.

Humans could never have created enough soil to make a difference. There have been times with lots of soil and times with no soil, just ask the dinosaurs. During the Ice Ages a lot of soil was created, even though there weren't many humans around. Soil levels declined during the Little Ice Age, which is why the settlements on Greenland failed. And soil levels on Mars are rising, which proves that humans have nothing to do with soil.
 
2012-01-21 12:16:07 PM
Link (new window) Good book.
 
2012-01-21 12:25:58 PM
Tyee: Some believe up to 95% were inadvertently killed disease to which they had no immunities

But they were fighting those diseases naturally, not using fake "vaccines" ginned up by Big Pharma! And look how well that worked for them.
 
2012-01-21 12:31:44 PM
Do yourself a big favor and read 1491. One of the best non-fiction books I've read in years.
 
2012-01-21 12:42:57 PM
theorellior: Humans could never have created enough soil to make a difference...and soil levels on Mars are rising, which proves that humans have nothing to do with soil.

Exactly.

Aliens.
 
2012-01-21 01:36:02 PM
theorellior: GAT_00: Oh, right. I'm not used to reading anthropogenic with soil.

Humans could never have created enough soil to make a difference. There have been times with lots of soil and times with no soil, just ask the dinosaurs. During the Ice Ages a lot of soil was created, even though there weren't many humans around. Soil levels declined during the Little Ice Age, which is why the settlements on Greenland failed. And soil levels on Mars are rising, which proves that humans have nothing to do with soil.


Sigh. They're talking about a specific type of black soil infused with charcoal found in the amazon that first appears historically around 400 BC. Not that all soil was made by man. This was also likely unintentional on the part of the people who did it.
 
2012-01-21 01:44:17 PM
PonceAlyosha: Sigh. They're talking about a specific type of black soil infused with charcoal found in the amazon that first appears historically around 400 BC. Not that all soil was made by man. This was also likely unintentional on the part of the people who did it.

Indeed. Were you perhaps a victim of Poe's Law here?
 
2012-01-21 01:55:11 PM
theorellior: PonceAlyosha: Sigh. They're talking about a specific type of black soil infused with charcoal found in the amazon that first appears historically around 400 BC. Not that all soil was made by man. This was also likely unintentional on the part of the people who did it.

Indeed. Were you perhaps a victim of Poe's Law here?


Unlikely, as no soil based satires didn't really take off after the 1960's.
 
2012-01-21 01:57:18 PM
Biochar: We're not the first and won't be the last.
 
2012-01-21 02:03:54 PM
Senior_Blanco: Do yourself a big favor and read 1491. One of the best non-fiction books I've read in years.

second
 
2012-01-21 02:10:51 PM
Tyee: Senior_Blanco: Do yourself a big favor and read 1491. One of the best non-fiction books I've read in years.

second


Just added it to my Amazon wish list. (Har. Amazon.)
First chapter is available to browse there, too.
 
2012-01-21 02:14:10 PM
dryknife: theorellior: Humans could never have created enough soil to make a difference...and soil levels on Mars are rising, which proves that humans have nothing to do with soil.

Exactly.

Aliens.


Exactly.

I have always found it interesting that people have ignored south america as a possible start of the human race.
 
2012-01-21 03:37:36 PM
I remember reading a while back that some of the first explorers of what is now the US east coast saw so many campfires and villages in the hills above the coast that they reported back to Europe that colonization would be inadvisable due to the massive numbers of people already living there who weren't too crazy about immigrants who couldn't speak A-Mur'kin, had a visceral revulsion to beards, and generally looked down their noses at people who were so stupid they wore metal shirts in the summertime.

Anyways, one of the first waves of depopulation kicked off when a certain tribe, in the midst of eradicating a group of shipwrecked Frenchmen, said "Hold on a tic, if we don't kill these unwashed savages, (they were french, after all) we can use them as slaves!"

Everyone agreed that yes, despite their backward attitudes towards personal hygiene and *curious* skin blemishes, the french would make GREAT slaves, and that taking it easy in the shade while someone else harvested tobacco was far better than doing it yourself.

In the space of a few years, the eastern seaboard was almost entirely depopulated, and when the Pilgrims arrived, they found empty villages all over the place with food still stored away. Almost like wandering into the aftermath of a zombie apocalypse without any zombies.

When the Europeans kicked the African slave trade into high gear, they decided that their own susceptibility to new African diseases such as Malaria was merely proof that God didn't want the white man breaking a sweat, and that Africans, having Malaria resistance through the recessive sickle-cell trait, and not being dumb enough to build their houses in the middle of swamps, were far, far better suited for work.

As far as the Amazon goes, Col. Fawcett was chasing after the stories of a group of early explorers who had paddled up the Amazon and described huge gleaming cities along the banks and abundant fruit and food offered to them by the inhabitants. The mud used on buildings dries white, apparently, and the same group that first described them also brought a canoe-load of European diseases with them, which wiped out all the urban dwellers in the Amazon, leaving only the remote hunter-gatherer tribes that didn't have contact with anybody. By the time Europeans got back to the Amazon many years later, the jungle had reclaimed everything, and they didn't see people anywhere. Educated opinion decided that since there weren't any buildings anywhere, and the soil is too crummy to grow food, the first explorers had made the whole dang story up to impress the serving-wenches in the bars back home.

It wasn't till in the last 10 or 15 years when they started finding the trenches, the roads, and the areas of incredibly fertile soil that appear to have been continuously fertilized with waste and organic garbage for untold hundreds of years, that people have begun to think that the first explorers were right after all.

/yeah, yeah, TL;DR
 
2012-01-21 06:38:05 PM
dryknife: '...the western Amazon, previously considered uninhabitable for sophisticated societies partly because of the quality of their soils...' Poor Soil? (new window)

thank you

yay
learned over 2 new things today!!
back to sleep
 
2012-01-21 06:38:15 PM
Senior_Blanco: Do yourself a big favor and read 1491. One of the best non-fiction books I've read in years.

Yup, right up there with Guns, Germs & Steel as a means for understanding why things turned out the way they did in this hemisphere.
 
2012-01-22 11:16:04 AM
Tyee: Senior_Blanco: Do yourself a big favor and read 1491. One of the best non-fiction books I've read in years.

second


Third and fourth

Also

The Lost City of Z: A Tale of Deadly Obsession in the Amazon by David Grann
 
2012-01-22 08:40:40 PM
I make soil nutrients every day. Sometimes twice a day even!
 
2012-01-23 01:17:35 AM
hasty ambush: Tyee: Senior_Blanco: Do yourself a big favor and read 1491. One of the best non-fiction books I've read in years.

second

Third and fourth

Also

The Lost City of Z: A Tale of Deadly Obsession in the Amazon by David Grann


Thanks for the recommend. I was confusing this with the other 1492 book, which I can't actually recommend. Maybe I will read this one. Sounds right up my alley.
 
2012-01-24 04:46:54 PM
Senior_Blanco: Do yourself a big favor and read 1491. One of the best non-fiction books I've read in years.

i think its one of the books arizona schools just banned, one of many ethnic studies books
 
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