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(Fox News)   Pagan mom: "You can't hand out Bibles in school." School: "They're donations. We'd do the same for any donated holy book." Pagan mom: "Fine, here's some copies of my spellbook." School: *crickets*   (foxnews.com) divider line 431
    More: Obvious, Bible college, Bibles, paganisms, sacred texts, Christian denominations, Jehovah's Witnesses, North Carolina, Wiccan  
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14064 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Jan 2012 at 8:41 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-01-19 08:22:36 AM  
"Many Christians have stood up and said they agree with me too," Strivelli said. "Because, as much as they may like the Bible, they don't want Jehovah's Witnesses coming in with Watch Tower (magazines) or Catholics coming in and having them pray the Rosary."

When I read things like this I feel like I've stumbled into a dark room full of people playing Dungeons & Dragons.
 
2012-01-19 08:31:44 AM  
Donated or not, a public school is no place to be passing out bibles or any religious things. You know what would be a really appropriate place to pass out bibles? Church.
 
2012-01-19 08:39:04 AM  
Rocky Raccoon checked into his room, only to find Gideon's spell book.
 
2012-01-19 08:39:22 AM  
Would have been funnier if she donated some Korans... I'm sure the school would have no problems handing those donated books out, either.

The moral of the story is, keep that shiat in church, or temple, or where ever the hell you choose to practice your religion.
 
2012-01-19 08:43:45 AM  
No, you can't do that.

Of course the poor poor oppressed Christians will kick a fit, but fark 'em.
 
2012-01-19 08:44:25 AM  
Paganism and wiccanism. The hipsters of religion.

Because religion was cooler before that whole Jesus guy.
 
2012-01-19 08:44:31 AM  
...and yet I'm not allowed to hand out candy at school from my van. The aristocrats.
 
2012-01-19 08:47:29 AM  

Teknowaffle: Paganism and wiccanism. The hipsters of religion.

Because religion was cooler before that whole Jesus guy.


So Buddhists, Jews, and members of any other religion that came before Jesus are hipsters?

/Not pagan or wiccan, just poking fun at your definition of religious hipsters.
 
2012-01-19 08:47:29 AM  
"Our children have access to more non-Christian print material in the libraries and online than they really do Christian stuff," he said.

Considering the number of non-Christian religions > 1, that is to be expected. You have way more churches than there are libraries, why can't the kids go to them to learn about Jesus?

/hope the kid isn't get shiat on for this
//wait I grew up in western NC, I know she is
 
2012-01-19 08:47:51 AM  
Perfect example of how christians are hypocrites.

There are so many threads where christians are trying to defend having their religion in government and those opposed to it say something like "you wouldn't be fine with this if it was the koran". Well here is a case where somebody stepped up and did make the christians put their money where their mouth are ... and they came out as expected: hypocrites.
 
2012-01-19 08:48:14 AM  
Sybilsue Strivelli? That's a hell of a name.
 
2012-01-19 08:49:20 AM  
Paganism....

You mean like symbolically ingesting the body and blood of a divine being as a regular ceremony? Believing a guy was killed, came back to life 3 days later, and then floated up into the sky?

That kind of paganism?
 
2012-01-19 08:50:17 AM  
The actions by the school fail the 3-pronged Lemon vs Kurtzman test on 2 fronts.

While the bibles in the front office dont display excessive preference, it has clearly excluded another religion from distributing its texts. Also, the distribution of bibles doesn't fill any secular purpose. I predict the fist of courts coming soon.
 
2012-01-19 08:50:18 AM  

LordJiro: Teknowaffle: Paganism and wiccanism. The hipsters of religion.

Because religion was cooler before that whole Jesus guy.

So Buddhists, Jews, and members of any other religion that came before Jesus are hipsters?

/Not pagan or wiccan, just poking fun at your definition of religious hipsters.


Yeah, but there are millions of buddhists, Jews and the like. Wiccanism and Paganism are for a weird few who crave religion and spirituality, but can't handle the thought of being "mainstream"
 
2012-01-19 08:50:26 AM  

LordJiro: Teknowaffle: Paganism and wiccanism. The hipsters of religion.

Because religion was cooler before that whole Jesus guy.

So Buddhists, Jews, and members of any other religion that came before Jesus are hipsters?

/Not pagan or wiccan, just poking fun at your definition of religious hipsters.


You guys do know that Wicca came about in the 1950s, right? It's about as ancient as Dick Clark.
 
2012-01-19 08:50:43 AM  
Any link to Fox has me immediately reading their comments section. Honestly not as much asshattery as I had expected. A couple folks there that made me raise my eyebrow, but the rest are more level headed than I would expect.

In short, two problems here:

1 - Religious materials of any kind should not be passed out at a school
2 - IF you do pass it out, then don't turn someone away for bringing in non-christian material.
 
2012-01-19 08:51:31 AM  

Teknowaffle: Paganism and wiccanism. The hipsters of religion.

Because religion was cooler before that whole Jesus guy.


And then there were the druids, with their long white robes and their long white beards...
 
2012-01-19 08:52:41 AM  
Did someone say Pagans?
www.brianorndorf.com

/I still want those goat leggins
 
2012-01-19 08:53:40 AM  
"Our children have access to more non-Christian print material in the libraries and online than they really do Christian stuff," he said.

They also have access to more non-history than history and more non-science than science, subsets how do they work?
 
2012-01-19 08:54:02 AM  

Jake Havechek: symbolically


Know how I know you aren't talking about Catholicism?
 
2012-01-19 08:57:05 AM  

thismomentinblackhistory: Jake Havechek: symbolically

Know how I know you aren't talking about Catholicism?


Sure I am; transubstantiation is a crock of shiat.
 
2012-01-19 08:57:11 AM  

Teknowaffle: Yeah, but there are millions of buddhists, Jews and the like. Wiccanism and Paganism are for a weird few who crave religion and spirituality, but can't handle the thought of being "mainstream"


[citation needed]


/not religious
 
2012-01-19 08:58:18 AM  
With all the conservatives whining about how the government can't do anything right and the teacher's union is a hive of scum and villainy, but it's suddenly okay with them if the inept government and evil teachers add a religion class?
 
2012-01-19 08:59:53 AM  
Hokey religions and ancient spells are no match for a good bible at your side, kid.
 
2012-01-19 09:00:04 AM  
I will not rest until all schools and public buildings have at least one of these on a shelf.

soul1.altervista.org
 
2012-01-19 09:00:13 AM  
As a hipster pagan living on the NC/SC border I'm getting a kick out of.... oh wait, no I'm not.

i40.photobucket.com
 
2012-01-19 09:00:49 AM  
Preface: I fully support the notion that religion and the state should be separate.
Read away...

I have no problem with books being distributed to interested kids.
I do see a slightly slippery slope, in theory. But really, who gives a shiat.
Nobody is forcing anything down the kids throat (unlike evolution, lolz).
 
2012-01-19 09:01:22 AM  

skammie: You guys do know that Wicca came about in the 1950s, right? It's about as ancient as Dick Clark.


Yeah, about that (new window)
 
2012-01-19 09:01:59 AM  

Dinobot: Did
/I still want those goat leggins


QFT
 
2012-01-19 09:03:58 AM  

nekom: Donated or not, a public school is no place to be passing out bibles or any religious things. You know what would be a really appropriate place to pass out bibles? Church.


Having religious texts in the school library, just like any other reference material, seems perfectly appropriate, but to hand it out doesn't. Unless of coarse it pertains to the lesson being taught. The problem becomes that there's so many different religions out there that some discrimination must occur or there will just be far too much material to effectively study any of them. And someone is going to get offended and scream about it.
 
2012-01-19 09:04:08 AM  

Teknowaffle:

Yeah, but there are millions of buddhists, Jews and the like. Wiccanism and Paganism are for a weird few who crave religion and spirituality, but can't handle the thought of being "mainstream"


Conformists
farm2.staticflickr.com
 
2012-01-19 09:05:43 AM  
Ah, religious zealotry. Is there anything you can't fark up?
 
2012-01-19 09:06:49 AM  
The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.

"Schools should not be giving out one religion's materials and not others," Strivelli said.


The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

Is the school giving out children when they allow parents to pick their kids up?
 
2012-01-19 09:07:08 AM  
Druids. Aren`t they a victorian invention? or is that pagans?

I know one of those `thousands of years old` pseudo-religious things was invented by victorians

The catholic encyclopedia says "Paganism, in the broadest sense includes all religions other than the true one revealed by God, and, in a narrower sense, all except Christianity, Judaism, and Mohammedanism. The term is also used as the equivalent of Polytheism."

bold is mine. I would say the bold is subject to discussion...

Don`t they all claim that? isn`t christianity itself pagan under that definition to other religions?
 
2012-01-19 09:07:25 AM  
The only time you should be allowed to pass out Bibles in a public school is for English class. Some people always get so jumpy around Bibles being near anywhere public that they forget the book has been a major influence on Western literature and plays for hundreds of years. And to fully understand some literature and plays one needs to have some knowledge of the Bible.

Even if you don't believe in it, it's a fantastic book. The use of language alone is worth the read.
 
2012-01-19 09:07:31 AM  
sybilsue?
 
2012-01-19 09:07:55 AM  
Interesting that the article described only the bible as a "sacred book" whereas other religious books were described as "religious texts" or "pagan spell books"

Also the comment about "mainstream good religons" (my emphasis)

Not biased much then?
 
2012-01-19 09:08:23 AM  

keylock71: Would have been funnier if she donated some Korans... I'm sure the school would have no problems handing those donated books out, either.

The moral of the story is, keep that shiat in church, or temple, or where ever the hell you choose to practice your religion.


Perhaps you should re-attend school for some reading comprehension. The school did not give anything out, they allowed the books to be picked up.
 
2012-01-19 09:08:33 AM  

keylock71: Would have been funnier if she donated some Korans...


Actually, there was an offer from New York for 500.

(I could have sworn this was a repeat, but I'm not finding a greenlight. If we can't have a religion tab, how about at least a tag word?)

Farking Canuck: Perfect example of how christians are hypocrites.


Well, nigh-perfect. It is marginally possible the lawyers actually got the "you IDIOT" warning back to the principal before she called his bluff. A perfect example would be if he wasn't even bothering to present "the lawyers say the policy needs revising because we maybe shouldn't have done that" as an excuse.

It's kind of a pity they did decide to change the policy so fast. There were discussions in a couple places about getting donations of a few hundred copies of Richard Dawkins "The Magic Of Reality" to give away there.
 
2012-01-19 09:09:12 AM  
Review period indeed. So they're not accepting religious book donations until things cool down! The law is clear that you if accept religious book donations you can't allow some and reject others, so it's best not to accept any at all. What is there to review?
 
2012-01-19 09:09:13 AM  
I received one of those pocket-sized bibles in fourth-grade public school many years ago; someone tried to say I had torched it, but no, I still have it for some dumb reason. Never received the Koran, Bhagavad Gita, spell books, box of Lucky Charms cereal or books on Scientology though.
 
2012-01-19 09:10:29 AM  

Teknowaffle: Paganism and wiccanism. The hipsters of religion.

Because religion was cooler before that whole Jesus guy.


Thor frowns upon your shenanigans, goes trawling the bars with Hercules for loose mortal tail.
 
2012-01-19 09:12:43 AM  

Bullseyed: The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.

"Schools should not be giving out one religion's materials and not others," Strivelli said.


The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

Is the school giving out children when they allow parents to pick their kids up?


How's this for a compromise? A public school shouldn't be offering religious texts at all.
 
2012-01-19 09:12:53 AM  
"America runs a grand, noble experiment in religious diversity without violence," he said. "There's no killing of the Jews. There's no Catholic-Protestant violence. We are very successful in this grand experiment."

www.psnnewsletter.com
 
2012-01-19 09:13:02 AM  

Bullseyed: The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.

"Schools should not be giving out one religion's materials and not others," Strivelli said.


The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

Is the school giving out children when they allow parents to pick their kids up?


Personally I don't have much problem with that. What I do have a problem with is them excluding other religions that want their materials given the same treatment. They cannot do that.
 
2012-01-19 09:13:07 AM  
"Our country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, not on Wiccan principles," [said] Bobby Honeycutt,

It's like an Onion article. Does he wear suspenders and drive a pick-up? Is Bobby Sr called 'Daddy'?
 
2012-01-19 09:14:36 AM  
screw them and screw that. church people should be out promoting good works and performing good deeds for family, neighbors and people of the community. lead by example. knock on peoples doors and let them know they are welcome at your house of worship.

i've seen very little of that in life. if these people really gave a damn about their fellow man and saving souls they would be looking after society's many untended and forgotten.
 
2012-01-19 09:15:00 AM  

abb3w: Well, nigh-perfect. It is marginally possible the lawyers actually got the "you IDIOT" warning back to the principal before she called his bluff. A perfect example would be if he wasn't even bothering to present "the lawyers say the policy needs revising because we maybe shouldn't have done that" as an excuse.


Sure but the knee-jerk reaction makes it pretty clear that the wiccan book was never going to be allowed for pick-up.

This principal appears to be smart enough to avoid a lawsuit ... this is the only reason that it didn't play out as you describe.
 
2012-01-19 09:15:02 AM  

Bullseyed: The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.

"Schools should not be giving out one religion's materials and not others," Strivelli said.


The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

Is the school giving out children when they allow parents to pick their kids up?


The point is they did not allow other religious literature to be similarly "picked up" thus show a preference for one religion over another.
 
2012-01-19 09:16:26 AM  
This thread is a good chance to post pics of what a hot witch/pagan might look like.

I am at work though so I can't contribute.
 
2012-01-19 09:16:59 AM  

PostApocalypticTribe: As a hipster pagan living on the NC/SC border I'm getting a kick out of.... oh wait, no I'm not.

[i40.photobucket.com image 468x320]


Is it just me or did the mom think she was in Asheville instead of the county?
In Asheville I'm pretty sure handing out spellbooks is mandatory in the schools. In the rest of the county....

For the rest of you, Asheville is the county seat of the county this is taking place in. Its the town Rolling Stone called "Freaktown USA."
 
2012-01-19 09:19:12 AM  

Gergesa: This thread is a good chance to post pics of what a hot witch/pagan might look like.

I am at work though so I can't contribute.


sorry, nsfw (new window)
 
2012-01-19 09:19:18 AM  

mekki: Even if you don't believe in it, it's a fantastic book. The use of language alone is worth the read.


I've heard that before.

You're absolutely wrong.

It's a disjointed mess of incoherent rantings. And the "use of language" is highly variable depending on the translator and his agenda.

No, the xian bible should NEVER be used in public schools, save it for college when students will be able to understand that it's simply a scary bit of mythology rather than something to actually be believed.
 
2012-01-19 09:20:01 AM  

mynameisdouglas: Preface: I fully support the notion that religion and the state should be separate.
Read away...

I have no problem with books being distributed to interested kids.
I do see a slightly slippery slope, in theory. But really, who gives a shiat.
Nobody is forcing anything down the kids throat (unlike evolution, lolz).


It's not the forcing of religion, it's the exclusion of other religions that is the issue. If the state only allows one religion to proselytize then you are creating a de facto state religion.
 
2012-01-19 09:21:50 AM  

Jake Havechek: thismomentinblackhistory: Jake Havechek: symbolically

Know how I know you aren't talking about Catholicism?

Sure I am; transubstantiation is a crock of shiat.


Is Transubstantiation the title of a movie yet?
 
2012-01-19 09:21:52 AM  

Farking Canuck: Perfect example of how christians are hypocrites.

There are so many threads where christians are trying to defend having their religion in government and those opposed to it say something like "you wouldn't be fine with this if it was the koran". Well here is a case where somebody stepped up and did make the christians put their money where their mouth are ... and they came out as expected: hypocrites.


How is a spellbook comparable to a book of stories to begin with?

That is like comparing the Anarchist's Cookbook to a Biography of Tim McVeigh.
 
2012-01-19 09:22:00 AM  

Bullseyed: keylock71: Would have been funnier if she donated some Korans... I'm sure the school would have no problems handing those donated books out, either.

The moral of the story is, keep that shiat in church, or temple, or where ever the hell you choose to practice your religion.

Perhaps you should re-attend school for some reading comprehension. The school did not give anything out, they allowed the books to be picked up.


So, the school would have no problems with a stack of Korans being left for kids to "pick up" if they wanted?

Again, keep that shiat in church where it belongs. Unless they're willing to allow all religions to leave their holy book of choice on the counter, the School shouldn't allow any of it to be left for kids to "pick up".

... But feel free to continue with your pedantic nonsense.
 
2012-01-19 09:22:08 AM  

Bullseyed: The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.


And when someone wanted to make a non-christian text 'available for pick-up' they changed the rules.

This shows that their policy to allow any donated books was a sham ... they only ever intended to allow christian books to be 'picked up' which is explicit endorsement of a single religion by a government facility. Which is against the law.

Your 'but-but-but it was only allowed for pick-up' excuse is as pathetic as the people who claimed they would allow any religious book but turned out to be liars.
 
2012-01-19 09:24:11 AM  

Bullseyed: How is a spellbook comparable to a book of stories to begin with?


They are both 100% fiction used to fleece money out of gullible people.

/you asked
 
2012-01-19 09:24:24 AM  

o5iiawah: The actions by the school fail the 3-pronged Lemon vs Kurtzman test on 2 fronts.

While the bibles in the front office dont display excessive preference, it has clearly excluded another religion from distributing its texts. Also, the distribution of bibles doesn't fill any secular purpose. I predict the fist of courts coming soon.


Is this particular woman's coven registered as a religion? Don't you have to establish a not-for-profit, a place of worship, a roster of followers and a bunch of other stuff to be declared a religion in terms of tax purposes?
 
2012-01-19 09:25:11 AM  

o5iiawah: While the bibles in the front office dont display excessive preference, it has clearly excluded another religion from distributing its texts.


Actually, the excuse is that it's because the lawyers are reviewing the policy because it's NOT clear the original distribution was... er, kosher... for an elementary school.

Bullseyed: The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.


...apparently allowing a release from normal instructional time to do so. And, yes, reportedly at least one teacher (an agent of the school) handed at least one Bible to one student who went to the main office to pick one up.

mekki: The only time you should be allowed to pass out Bibles in a public school is for English class.


As a secularist, I'd prefer that only the excerpts being covered in the class be included, rather than the whole thing. That said, I can see how some people might reasonably disagree on that.

30.media.tumblr.com
 
2012-01-19 09:25:44 AM  

Galvatron Zero: Any link to Fox has me immediately reading their comments section. Honestly not as much asshattery as I had expected. A couple folks there that made me raise my eyebrow, but the rest are more level headed than I would expect.

In short, two problems here:

1 - Religious materials of any kind should not be passed out at a school
2 - IF you do pass it out, then don't turn someone away for bringing in non-christian material.


Problem: you didn't read the article. They were not passed out. Essentially they were left on the floor in a box in the hallway. A couple of kids took them home of their own free will and free choice.
 
2012-01-19 09:26:46 AM  

Bullseyed: Perhaps you should re-attend school for some reading comprehension. The school did not give anything out, they allowed the books to be picked up.


Really? That's what you're going with?
 
2012-01-19 09:28:52 AM  

Andrew Wiggin: Gergesa: This thread is a good chance to post pics of what a hot witch/pagan might look like.

I am at work though so I can't contribute.

sorry, nsfw (new window)


Great now I have to wait 8 hours to find out what the link leads to. The suspense will gnaw away at my sanity until I start hallucinating wildly.
 
2012-01-19 09:28:56 AM  
part of the problem:
Is it just me or did the mom think she was in Asheville instead of the county?
In Asheville I'm pretty sure handing out spellbooks is mandatory in the schools. In the rest of the county....


For the rest of you, Asheville is the county seat of the county this is taking place in. Its the town Rolling Stone called "Freaktown USA."

At least once a month I turn to my husband and say, "You know, we should move to Asheville." Had it happened there I'm pretty sure there would have been a general assembly to sort out the problem followed by a drum circle and bonfire to celebrate unity.

/Pass the mead!
 
2012-01-19 09:29:19 AM  

AngryPanda: Bullseyed: The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.

"Schools should not be giving out one religion's materials and not others," Strivelli said.


The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

Is the school giving out children when they allow parents to pick their kids up?

How's this for a compromise? A public school shouldn't be offering religious texts at all.


When did complete prohibition become compromise? Do you really think that ignorance is the correct solution? If a debate between vegetarian meals and meat included meals comes up do you think that making the kids go hungry is the right coarse of action so as not to offend anyone?

Freedom of religion was not a prescription for ignorance.

How about schools don't hand out religious texts that don't pertain to a lesson?

Religion is very significant in this world, like it or not. Kids do need to be taught about, at least, the major ones because they are going to encounter them in life. It's just the way it is. Either we are educating them to be able to function effectively in this world or we are trying to indoctrinate them giving less regard for their future success than our own personal agendas.
 
2012-01-19 09:30:53 AM  
Problem: you didn't read the article. They were not passed out. Essentially they were left on the floor in a box in the hallway. A couple of kids took them home of their own free will and free choice.

Problem: You don't understand the issue.

You'll probably keep bashing away at it though but here's what you're missing.

The distinction between whether they were passed out or put in a box is irrelevant. It doesn't matter. You keep drawing that distinction and it keeps being a total non-issue.

The issue is that books of type 1 were allowed to be left on the floor in a box in the hallway and books of type 2 were potentially not allowed to be left on the floor in a box in the hallway.
 
2012-01-19 09:31:25 AM  
Those People Against Goodness And Normalcy should have no say in what does or does not get distributed at schools.

/the virgin Connie Swail unavailable for comment.
 
2012-01-19 09:32:09 AM  
She named her daughter Sybilsue Strivelli. For that alone she should be gunt-punched, imprisoned, and tossed out of the school system.

Ever notice most Wiccans are emo attention-whores?
 
2012-01-19 09:32:22 AM  
How can people be Pagan/Wicca? Seriously... You can cast a "spell", see it doesn't work, and viola, it is disproved. At least with the other religions, when praying, you rely on God to do it for you so you can just say he didn't grant your prayer when it doesn't do anything. A spell and you are on your own.

That, and it was made in the 1950s, so it is pretty easy to see it was all made up, since there are billions of people who were alive before it existed. Like Scientology.
 
2012-01-19 09:32:24 AM  
Stayed in hotel last year where they had a Bhagavad Gita next to the Gideon Bible.

/Some Hindus do not believe in killing fleas. Those Hindus ran that hotel.
 
2012-01-19 09:33:01 AM  

Jake Havechek: Paganism....

You mean like symbolically ingesting the body and blood of a divine being as a regular ceremony? Believing a guy was killed, came back to life 3 days later, and then floated up into the sky?

That kind of paganism?


Sure why not -- as long as the book doesn't go into detail about how you can recreate the entire scene today for reals, and nothing else.

In my mind, she'd have a stronger argument if she had produced the equivalent of a Wiccan book of wisdom. And she'd also have a stronger argument if thismomentinblackhistory's quote, and the contents of that quote, didn't exist. It's telling that the people she quotes as agreeing with her, she doesn't see all the many, many, many problems with those type of people agreeing with her. They just told her, in as kind a way as possible, that they don't agree with HER putting her crap out. And she didn't get it.

Anyway, she handed out a fricking spellbook. A spellbook is not a holy book, in the sense of these are the words of the God and Goddess. A spellbook is one's personal relationship with .. whomever. But it is not a holy book. What she did was the equivalent of passing out a self-published treatise on local history, and demanded it be treated the same as a scholarly text published by the local university. She's retarded.

Besides, for me, it's always frustrating to read about so-called witches handing out spellbooks and trading spellbooks. If that's your tradition, that's your tradition. But that's not paganism. That's superstition.

What exactly is *her* religion? What are her reflections on her God/Goddess/Oversoul/place in the universe, whatever? What are the reflections of her pagan sect's, on the same?

The school was in the right to reject her spellbook. She's an attention whore. Unfortunately, she's a great example of modern (fake) witchcraft and paganism. None of it's real. There are a few people out there who are real, who hold or have held that there's more to paganism than spells and running around naked. Scott Cunningham has been dead for just about 25 years now, though :( Is Starhawk still alive?
 
2012-01-19 09:33:17 AM  

irishjihad: mynameisdouglas: Preface: I fully support the notion that religion and the state should be separate.
Read away...

I have no problem with books being distributed to interested kids.
I do see a slightly slippery slope, in theory. But really, who gives a shiat.
Nobody is forcing anything down the kids throat (unlike evolution, lolz).

It's not the forcing of religion, it's the exclusion of other religions that is the issue. If the state only allows one religion to proselytize then you are creating a de facto state religion.


Yes.
So allow interested kids to pick up donated items. Here is where there is an issue: parental complaints.
Wiccan mom wants her book distributed if donated, ok by me but not others. Hugh Hefner wants the bible of pornography donated, ok by me but not others.

Other than parents wanting public education to bend to their every whim, and thus be unsatisfying in both morality and education, there really is no problem here.
 
G2V
2012-01-19 09:33:19 AM  
You know, I am less annoyed with the blatant favortism Christianity receives in this country (despite all the ridiculous protestations to the contrary) than I am with all these people who think they are being clever sly little minxes and 'helping' by doing stuff like "we just put them in some boxes that people could waltz by and take them out of it they wanted to, teehee"
 
2012-01-19 09:35:08 AM  

Bullseyed: How is a spellbook comparable to a book of stories to begin with?

That is like comparing the Anarchist's Cookbook to a Biography of Tim McVeigh.


Only if you think that the spells contained in that book will actually work......

You don't actually think that do you?
 
2012-01-19 09:35:16 AM  

Lsherm: Ever notice most Wiccans are emo attention-whores?


I really hope you aren't claiming this woman is an attention whore. Because every time someone makes a legitimate complaint about the intrusion of religion into the state sponsored space, someone calls them attention whores.
 
2012-01-19 09:36:26 AM  

Bullseyed: Problem: you didn't read the article. They were not passed out. Essentially they were left on the floor in a box in the hallway. A couple of kids took them home of their own free will and free choice.


On school grounds, religious documents were given away. Not hard to see that there's a problem there. If the school wasn't actively handing out Bibles, it was serving as a vending machine for kids to take a religious document that many atheists, agnostics and pagans find inappropriate and downright morally offensive.

fark, I grew up Jewish in rural Pennsylvania, and even than the Christiany bouts of religious pressure from time to time were awkward. For non-semitic people that's only worse.

The Bible has some good teachings and we could learn a lot about morality and history from it. However, it is still a hateful book with many chapters that simply say if you do not follow a specific spiritual path you will be tortured eternally, regardless of how good a person you are through your acts.
 
2012-01-19 09:37:23 AM  
Bullseyed: They were not passed out. Essentially they were left on the floor in a box in the hallway. A couple of kids took them home of their own free will and free choice.

By this logic, welfare isn't "given out" by the government if the recipient is the active party in obtaining the physical check.
 
2012-01-19 09:37:25 AM  

ExperianScaresCthulhu: What she did was the equivalent of passing out a self-published treatise on local history, and demanded it be treated the same as a scholarly text published by the local university.


Yeah, unlike that scholarly text the bible, right?
 
2012-01-19 09:38:35 AM  

dready zim: Druids. Aren`t they a victorian invention? or is that pagans?

I know one of those `thousands of years old` pseudo-religious things was invented by victorians

The catholic encyclopedia says "Paganism, in the broadest sense includes all religions other than the true one revealed by God, and, in a narrower sense, all except Christianity, Judaism, and Mohammedanism. The term is also used as the equivalent of Polytheism."

bold is mine. I would say the bold is subject to discussion...

Don`t they all claim that? isn`t christianity itself pagan under that definition to other religions?


Generally speaking, I always thought of pagan as meaning an irreligious, non-spiritual person. Like "heathens" just slightly less hairy and stabby, but more drinky and orgy-y.
 
2012-01-19 09:38:39 AM  
Spellbook? Oh I see...fake Wiccans. Gotta love them.


/worked with a self-proclaimed 'Warlock' who would put hexes on our supervisor
//good times
 
2012-01-19 09:39:47 AM  

keylock71: Bullseyed: keylock71: Would have been funnier if she donated some Korans... I'm sure the school would have no problems handing those donated books out, either.

The moral of the story is, keep that shiat in church, or temple, or where ever the hell you choose to practice your religion.

Perhaps you should re-attend school for some reading comprehension. The school did not give anything out, they allowed the books to be picked up.

So, the school would have no problems with a stack of Korans being left for kids to "pick up" if they wanted?

Again, keep that shiat in church where it belongs. Unless they're willing to allow all religions to leave their holy book of choice on the counter, the School shouldn't allow any of it to be left for kids to "pick up".

... But feel free to continue with your pedantic nonsense.


Consider that Bullseyed is a birther, which may explain his evident lack of intelligence.
 
2012-01-19 09:39:47 AM  
a57.foxnews.com

I'd hit it. The one on the right, of course.

/foxnews has the image labeled as TheCraft1, real nice
 
2012-01-19 09:40:42 AM  

Callous: AngryPanda: Bullseyed: The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.

"Schools should not be giving out one religion's materials and not others," Strivelli said.


The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

Is the school giving out children when they allow parents to pick their kids up?

How's this for a compromise? A public school shouldn't be offering religious texts at all.

When did complete prohibition become compromise? Do you really think that ignorance is the correct solution? If a debate between vegetarian meals and meat included meals comes up do you think that making the kids go hungry is the right coarse of action so as not to offend anyone?

Freedom of religion was not a prescription for ignorance.

How about schools don't hand out religious texts that don't pertain to a lesson?

Religion is very significant in this world, like it or not. Kids do need to be taught about, at least, the major ones because they are going to encounter them in life. It's just the way it is. Either we are educating them to be able to function effectively in this world or we are trying to indoctrinate them giving less regard for their future success than our own personal agendas.


If they imply preference for one religion, there is no equal education of religion. Don't offer any of the books if you won't offer all of them.
 
2012-01-19 09:40:43 AM  

Bullseyed: How is a spellbook comparable to a book of stories to begin with?


For fark's sake, RTFA. She didn't offer to give out spellbooks. She offered to give out books explaining Pagan faith. Once you get past the teenage phase of wanting to do magic, something that isn't practiced in the way you think it is, paganism is just another spiritual path. You pray, you celebrate holidays, you show respect to nature/totems/goddesses/whatever you worship, and any "spells" are little more than a cross between homeopathic medicine and the same prayers football players, soldiers, and test takers say to get the outcomes they want.
 
2012-01-19 09:41:03 AM  

mekki:
Even if you don't believe in it, it's a fantastic book. The use of language alone is worth the read.


After spending a thousand plus years in editing, I suspect even "Dick and Jane" could be made into literary masterpieces.

But you are correct that one does need at least a working knowledge of the bible, even if it is not intimate, to get many literary references, as the bible is ingrained deeply in our culture.

@Bullseyed: The school gave the bibles away, trying to argue anything else is just sophistry based on semantics. Just because they weren't overtly shoving the books in students hands doesn't mean that there wasn't tacit encouragement for the students to pick up the books. That being said, they were fine until they decided "oops, can't let kids get there non-christian religious texts".

/CSB time: I remember getting a Gideons in elementary school. They stopped allowing them to be handed out (or even made available) when someone pointed out to the school board that if they continued and someone wanted to hand out a non-christian text, they would legally have to allow it or be in for a world of hurt from potential lawsuits they couldn't hope to win.
 
2012-01-19 09:42:26 AM  

ExperianScaresCthulhu:

The Bible isn't a frickin' "holy book". It's just a book, it has no precedence over anything else. The Bible people read today is vastly edited down from it's earlier versions.

Ever read the uncut version of King David's story? It reads like a Tolkein book with strange creatures and magic rings.

 
2012-01-19 09:42:38 AM  

ExperianScaresCthulhu: The school was in the right to reject her spellbook.


Do you honestly believe that they would leave out a box of korans if they were donated??

No they wouldn't ... the exact same reaction would have happened. So give up on your "a spell book isn't a real religious book" red herring.

None of it's real.

LOL ... and the magic you believe in is real?!?
 
2012-01-19 09:43:57 AM  
Ok kids, you each get one if you can carry it home...

www.storyofbible.com
 
2012-01-19 09:46:34 AM  
I wonder when the churches will start handing out books on atheism and reason?
 
2012-01-19 09:48:02 AM  

ExperianScaresCthulhu: Besides, for me, it's always frustrating to read about so-called witches handing out spellbooks and trading spellbooks. If that's your tradition, that's your tradition. But that's not paganism. That's superstition.


All religion is superstition given varying amounts of credence by society based purely on how popular it is.

Guess what? Most prayers that aren't completely devotional in Christianity are little more than spells. They appeal to power to get things to go your way. For fark's sake, how are baptism and communion anything less than full-blown magical rituals to imbue some spiritual presence in a person through unusual and unbelievable means?

Also, she didn't offer to hand out a "spellbook," and for most pagans even "spellbooks" are little more than hymnals to conduct the same sorts of prayers and rituals every other religion does.
 
2012-01-19 09:48:35 AM  

Dedmon: I wonder when the churches will start handing out books on atheism and reason?


After they get the bonfire lit.
 
2012-01-19 09:51:04 AM  
My half-sister in-law's mom is a pagan living on the TN/NC border. She runs a B&B and gives weddings on her property. She passes out condoms with her place advertised on them. She's *real* popular with the locals, let me tell you...

/got nothin, article just reminded me of her
//usually ends up marrying off the 'freaks and heretics' of the community, by which I mean people who dared get divorced and married again, or the bride and groom aren't uncomfortably close relatives of each other...
 
2012-01-19 09:51:58 AM  

Farking Canuck: ExperianScaresCthulhu: The school was in the right to reject her spellbook.

Do you honestly believe that they would leave out a box of korans if they were donated??

No they wouldn't ... the exact same reaction would have happened. So give up on your "a spell book isn't a real religious book" red herring.

None of it's real.

LOL ... and the magic you believe in is real?!?


Religion = Superstition + $$$$$

All we need to know about that.
 
2012-01-19 09:52:25 AM  

Jake Havechek: Paganism....

You mean like symbolically ingesting the body and blood of a divine being as a regular ceremony? Believing a guy was killed, came back to life 3 days later, and then floated up into the sky?

That kind of paganism?


There is a reason that, of the 3 or 4 dozen Pagans i know personally, about 90% are ex-Catholics
 
2012-01-19 09:54:02 AM  

Bloody William: Bullseyed: Problem: you didn't read the article. They were not passed out. Essentially they were left on the floor in a box in the hallway. A couple of kids took them home of their own free will and free choice.

On school grounds, religious documents were given away. Not hard to see that there's a problem there. If the school wasn't actively handing out Bibles, it was serving as a vending machine for kids to take a religious document that many atheists, agnostics and pagans find inappropriate and downright morally offensive.

fark, I grew up Jewish in rural Pennsylvania, and even than the Christiany bouts of religious pressure from time to time were awkward. For non-semitic people that's only worse.

The Bible has some good teachings and we could learn a lot about morality and history from it. However, it is still a hateful book with many chapters that simply say if you do not follow a specific spiritual path you will be tortured eternally, regardless of how good a person you are through your acts.


My favorite bible passage is Lev 20:9-10

Then have a box with the koran, watchtower, etc, too. Then it won't be a problem.
 
2012-01-19 09:57:52 AM  

Callous: nekom: Donated or not, a public school is no place to be passing out bibles or any religious things. You know what would be a really appropriate place to pass out bibles? Church.

Having religious texts in the school library, just like any other reference material, seems perfectly appropriate, but to hand it out doesn't. Unless of coarse it pertains to the lesson being taught. The problem becomes that there's so many different religions out there that some discrimination must occur or there will just be far too much material to effectively study any of them. And someone is going to get offended and scream about it.


Course*

Stay in school kid.
 
2012-01-19 09:58:00 AM  

Bullseyed: o5iiawah: The actions by the school fail the 3-pronged Lemon vs Kurtzman test on 2 fronts.

While the bibles in the front office dont display excessive preference, it has clearly excluded another religion from distributing its texts. Also, the distribution of bibles doesn't fill any secular purpose. I predict the fist of courts coming soon.

Is this particular woman's coven registered as a religion? Don't you have to establish a not-for-profit, a place of worship, a roster of followers and a bunch of other stuff to be declared a religion in terms of tax purposes?


Interesting questions.
 
2012-01-19 09:58:56 AM  

Farking Canuck: Bullseyed: The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

And when someone wanted to make a non-christian text 'available for pick-up' they changed the rules.

This shows that their policy to allow any donated books was a sham ... they only ever intended to allow christian books to be 'picked up' which is explicit endorsement of a single religion by a government facility. Which is against the law.

Your 'but-but-but it was only allowed for pick-up' excuse is as pathetic as the people who claimed they would allow any religious book but turned out to be liars.


But it has to be the right kind of Christianity. Even according to the Pagan lady:

"Many Christians have stood up and said they agree with me too," Strivelli said. "Because, as much as they may like the Bible, they don't want Jehovah's Witnesses coming in with Watch Tower (magazines) or Catholics coming in and having them pray the Rosary."
 
2012-01-19 09:59:08 AM  

AngryPanda: Callous: AngryPanda: Bullseyed: The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.

"Schools should not be giving out one religion's materials and not others," Strivelli said.


The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

Is the school giving out children when they allow parents to pick their kids up?

How's this for a compromise? A public school shouldn't be offering religious texts at all.

When did complete prohibition become compromise? Do you really think that ignorance is the correct solution? If a debate between vegetarian meals and meat included meals comes up do you think that making the kids go hungry is the right coarse of action so as not to offend anyone?

Freedom of religion was not a prescription for ignorance.

How about schools don't hand out religious texts that don't pertain to a lesson?

Religion is very significant in this world, like it or not. Kids do need to be taught about, at least, the major ones because they are going to encounter them in life. It's just the way it is. Either we are educating them to be able to function effectively in this world or we are trying to indoctrinate them giving less regard for their future success than our own personal agendas.

If they imply preference for one religion, there is no equal education of religion. Don't offer any of the books if you won't offer all of them.


There can't be equal education for religion. There are too damn many of them for them to all be covered effectively. And to demand ignorance in the face of that fact is ridiculous.
 
2012-01-19 10:00:23 AM  

oryx: Review period indeed. So they're not accepting religious book donations until things cool down! The law is clear that you if accept religious book donations you can't allow some and reject others, so it's best not to accept any at all. What is there to review?


If the law was indeed clear you would be able to cite this law, no?

/oh right, it doesn't exist.
 
2012-01-19 10:00:23 AM  

Inflatable Rhetoric:

My favorite bible passage is Lev 20:9-10


I always liked John 21:3
 
2012-01-19 10:01:53 AM  

AngryPanda: Bullseyed: The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.

"Schools should not be giving out one religion's materials and not others," Strivelli said.


The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

Is the school giving out children when they allow parents to pick their kids up?

How's this for a compromise? A public school shouldn't be offering religious texts at all.


Public schools should be a state/local issue and can do whatever they want regarding religious texts.
 
2012-01-19 10:02:35 AM  
The picture was exactly how I imagined it before clicking.
 
2012-01-19 10:02:37 AM  

Bullseyed: Callous: nekom: Donated or not, a public school is no place to be passing out bibles or any religious things. You know what would be a really appropriate place to pass out bibles? Church.

Having religious texts in the school library, just like any other reference material, seems perfectly appropriate, but to hand it out doesn't. Unless of coarse it pertains to the lesson being taught. The problem becomes that there's so many different religions out there that some discrimination must occur or there will just be far too much material to effectively study any of them. And someone is going to get offended and scream about it.

Course*

Stay in school kid.


Eh, sometimes swype does that to ya. I've been out of school for a while now.
 
2012-01-19 10:02:40 AM  

Cheesus: Bullseyed: The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.

"Schools should not be giving out one religion's materials and not others," Strivelli said.


The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

Is the school giving out children when they allow parents to pick their kids up?

Personally I don't have much problem with that. What I do have a problem with is them excluding other religions that want their materials given the same treatment. They cannot do that.


My religion is call pornologism. Can I now give out playboys at the local school?
 
2012-01-19 10:03:24 AM  

Bullseyed: AngryPanda: Bullseyed: The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.

"Schools should not be giving out one religion's materials and not others," Strivelli said.


The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

Is the school giving out children when they allow parents to pick their kids up?

How's this for a compromise? A public school shouldn't be offering religious texts at all.

Public schools should be a state/local issue and can do whatever they want regarding religious texts.


If it's unconstitutional, no they cannot.
 
2012-01-19 10:07:21 AM  

Bullseyed: oryx: Review period indeed. So they're not accepting religious book donations until things cool down! The law is clear that you if accept religious book donations you can't allow some and reject others, so it's best not to accept any at all. What is there to review?

If the law was indeed clear you would be able to cite this law, no?

/oh right, it doesn't exist.


It's called the Establishment Clause. If you knew a damn thing at all about your own country, you'd know this.
 
2012-01-19 10:07:42 AM  

Bullseyed: Cheesus: Bullseyed: The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.

"Schools should not be giving out one religion's materials and not others," Strivelli said.


The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

Is the school giving out children when they allow parents to pick their kids up?

Personally I don't have much problem with that. What I do have a problem with is them excluding other religions that want their materials given the same treatment. They cannot do that.

My religion is call pornologism. Can I now give out playboys at the local school?


Sure, you could not be excluded because of this. You could, however, be excluded because of other laws involving distributing pornography to minors.
 
2012-01-19 10:09:45 AM  

Bullseyed: o5iiawah: The actions by the school fail the 3-pronged Lemon vs Kurtzman test on 2 fronts.

While the bibles in the front office dont display excessive preference, it has clearly excluded another religion from distributing its texts. Also, the distribution of bibles doesn't fill any secular purpose. I predict the fist of courts coming soon.

Is this particular woman's coven registered as a religion? Don't you have to establish a not-for-profit, a place of worship, a roster of followers and a bunch of other stuff to be declared a religion in terms of tax purposes?


I think a coven is closer to a congregation than an underlying religion, so I think the more appropriate question would be the underlying religion's recognition by the IRS. There are certain requirements for favorable tax treatment, but I'm not sure that this line of questioning really matters in this circumstance.
A denial of a particular tax treatment does not deny a religion from being recognized otherwise. When the government denies equal protection to a protected class, or deprives a fundamental right, it must do so as narrowly as possible. Furthermore, the Gov't must have a compelling interest in doing so. It seems reasonable to say that preventing tax fraud is a fairly compelling interest. In contrast, I can not seem to think of a truly compelling reason for allowing one religious book to be available over another. In essence, the presumption is that the religion is recognized in all circumstances. Where there is a compelling reason to not recognize the religion, the denial is only valid in that specific context.
 
2012-01-19 10:11:27 AM  

phyrkrakr: Inflatable Rhetoric:

My favorite bible passage is Lev 20:9-10


I always liked John 21:3


It's less violent, but they probably went fishing without beer.
 
2012-01-19 10:11:37 AM  

Bullseyed: My religion is call pornologism. Can I now give out playboys at the local school?


not to nitpick, but playboy = porn? to me, it's not porn unless there's penetration. sweet sweet penetration.
 
2012-01-19 10:12:59 AM  

PostApocalypticTribe: part of the problem:
Is it just me or did the mom think she was in Asheville instead of the county?
In Asheville I'm pretty sure handing out spellbooks is mandatory in the schools. In the rest of the county....

For the rest of you, Asheville is the county seat of the county this is taking place in. Its the town Rolling Stone called "Freaktown USA."

At least once a month I turn to my husband and say, "You know, we should move to Asheville." Had it happened there I'm pretty sure there would have been a general assembly to sort out the problem followed by a drum circle and bonfire to celebrate unity.

/Pass the mead!


I used to say, Asheville is the only town in America where hippies run the city council and baptists riot in the streets.

If you've been around long enough to remember mayor Leni you know what I mean.

Used to play gigs in Eugene Or. Eugene was Mayberry compared to Asheville.

Oh, and I get my mead from a devoutly Christian environmental biologist who lives up that way (really). When they say Asheville is diverse they ARE NOT kidding.

(And before anyone flames the Christian biologist reference, dude has done more to save the Smokies than your Chris Hitchens reading group so put a cork in it.)
 
2012-01-19 10:12:59 AM  

Teknowaffle: Paganism and wiccanism. The hipsters of religion.

Because religion was cooler before that whole Jesus guy.


Wicca only dates back to the 1950's and the neopaganism that most of these witchcraft types practice is even younger than that.

/just sayin'
 
2012-01-19 10:14:57 AM  

DarkVader: mekki: Even if you don't believe in it, it's a fantastic book. The use of language alone is worth the read.

I've heard that before. You're absolutely wrong. It's a disjointed mess of incoherent rantings. And the "use of language" is highly variable depending on the translator and his agenda.

No, the xian bible should NEVER be used in public schools, save it for college when students will be able to understand that it's simply a scary bit of mythology rather than something to actually be believed.


Your biases cloud your judgement. You can disagree with the contents of a book, without falsely characterizing those same contents. Yes, the use of language can vary depending on which version you're reading. But there are very moving passages, very wise passages, very frightening passages, and very thought-provoking passages, and some dull shiat, too.

Don't let your biases cloud your judgement.
 
2012-01-19 10:15:40 AM  

Tapakip: [a57.foxnews.com image 396x223]

I'd hit it. The one on the right, of course.

/foxnews has the image labeled as TheCraft1, real nice


i second this.
 
2012-01-19 10:16:17 AM  

abb3w:
[30.media.tumblr.com image 500x313]


What did Aasimov mean by his quote? Why is it the most potent force for atheism? and why is it more potent than other holy texts?
 
2012-01-19 10:19:24 AM  

Jake Havechek: Paganism....

You mean like symbolically ingesting the body and blood of a divine being as a regular ceremony?


That's not symbolic, left-footers actually believe it
 
2012-01-19 10:19:58 AM  

Dinki: Lsherm: Ever notice most Wiccans are emo attention-whores?

I really hope you aren't claiming this woman is an attention whore. Because every time someone makes a legitimate complaint about the intrusion of religion into the state sponsored space, someone calls them attention whores.


I have to agree with Lsherm. She is an attention whore, same as the atheist dude who got his jollies suing his daughter's school for 'under God' in the pledge. and she is an attention whore same as the fake christians who find offense and raise hell at the star and crescent on public grounds.
 
2012-01-19 10:19:59 AM  

Jake Havechek: Paganism....

You mean like symbolically ingesting the body and blood of a divine being as a regular ceremony? Believing a guy was killed, came back to life 3 days later, and then floated up into the sky?

That kind of paganism?


"paganism" is a blanket term for non-abrahamic religion so "no" not like that
 
2012-01-19 10:21:07 AM  

Farking Canuck: Bullseyed: The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

And when someone wanted to make a non-christian text 'available for pick-up' they changed the rules.

This shows that their policy to allow any donated books was a sham ... they only ever intended to allow christian books to be 'picked up' which is explicit endorsement of a single religion by a government facility. Which is against the law.

Your 'but-but-but it was only allowed for pick-up' excuse is as pathetic as the people who claimed they would allow any religious book but turned out to be liars.


Troll harder. There is nothing in the article to state that this was another religion book. It says it was "her spell book". For all we know this particular woman was the author. People immediately tried to leap to the book of wicca or the necronomicon, but if it was those books the article would have said it.

You can't allow people to make up their own religions and be afforded the same benefits as real religions.


How come no one complains when 6th and 7th graders read the Illiad and the Odyssey for history class? Greek and Roman mythology is paganism, but I don't see the atheists complaining.
 
2012-01-19 10:21:26 AM  

Bullseyed: Cheesus: Bullseyed: The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.

"Schools should not be giving out one religion's materials and not others," Strivelli said.


The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

Is the school giving out children when they allow parents to pick their kids up?

Personally I don't have much problem with that. What I do have a problem with is them excluding other religions that want their materials given the same treatment. They cannot do that.

My religion is call pornologism. Can I now give out playboys at the local school?


No. Your rights can be curtailed by the government, and they must have a compelling reason to do so. You may disagree with it personally, but a court is incredibly likely to find that preventing the distribution of pornography to minors is a compelling interest of the state. In fact, it's already against the law.
 
2012-01-19 10:21:39 AM  

Dinobot: Did someone say Pagans?
[www.brianorndorf.com image 400x225]

/I still want those goat leggins


And they still want the virgin Connie Swail.
 
2012-01-19 10:21:49 AM  

Bullseyed: The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.

"Schools should not be giving out one religion's materials and not others," Strivelli said.


The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

Is the school giving out children when they allow parents to pick their kids up?


And how, pray tell, did the students find out about the material again?
 
2012-01-19 10:22:06 AM  

Bullseyed: Farking Canuck: Perfect example of how christians are hypocrites.

There are so many threads where christians are trying to defend having their religion in government and those opposed to it say something like "you wouldn't be fine with this if it was the koran". Well here is a case where somebody stepped up and did make the christians put their money where their mouth are ... and they came out as expected: hypocrites.

How is a spellbook comparable to a book of stories to begin with?

That is like comparing the Anarchist's Cookbook to a Biography of Tim McVeigh.


Interesting comparison. But yeah. A spellbook doesn't explain 'why', unless very well written.
 
2012-01-19 10:22:11 AM  
At least we know what house hands out the Chick Tracts at Halloween and what house hands out the Necronomicon Junior.
 
2012-01-19 10:22:48 AM  

Bullseyed: The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.

"Schools should not be giving out one religion's materials and not others," Strivelli said.


The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

Is the school giving out children when they allow parents to pick their kids up?


I was going to be outraged.
But, due to this fact right here, there is nothing to be outraged about.

If the school wants to give away free bibles to anyone who wants one, fine. Who cares. They weren't "passing them out," they were saying "If you want one, come get one." How is that wrong at all?
 
2012-01-19 10:22:58 AM  

Farking Canuck: Bullseyed: How is a spellbook comparable to a book of stories to begin with?

They are both 100% fiction used to fleece money out of gullible people.

/you asked


So Egypt doesn't exist? They never enslaved the Hebrew people? The Babylonian Empire never existed? Etc, etc.

Someone should inform the makers of all this history text books.
 
2012-01-19 10:24:32 AM  

abb3w: Bullseyed: The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

...apparently allowing a release from normal instructional time to do so. And, yes, reportedly at least one teacher (an agent of the school) handed at least one Bible to one student who went to the main office to pick one up.


So did the student go to the office to pick one up or was he given one?

You can't even keep the story straight in a few sentences...
 
2012-01-19 10:25:02 AM  

InfamousBLT: If the school wants to give away free bibles to anyone who wants one, fine. Who cares. They weren't "passing them out," they were saying "If you want one, come get one." How is that wrong at all?


It's not necessarily, until you deny equal treatment to other religious texts. Then it is.
 
2012-01-19 10:25:18 AM  

Bullseyed: If the law was indeed clear you would be able to cite this law, no?

/oh right, it doesn't exist.


The lemon test, as outlined in Lemon v. Kurtzman and held as the standard in determining religious endorsement.

The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.


Giving away the religious texts of one religion and refusing to do the same for others seems to have the primary effect of both advancing and inhibiting religion.

And before you go with the states and local rights bullshiat, I'll just remind you that the 14th amendment covers that. What's good for the federal government is good for state and local governments when it comes to not farking endorsing religion.
 
2012-01-19 10:26:18 AM  

Bullseyed: Farking Canuck: Bullseyed: The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

And when someone wanted to make a non-christian text 'available for pick-up' they changed the rules.

This shows that their policy to allow any donated books was a sham ... they only ever intended to allow christian books to be 'picked up' which is explicit endorsement of a single religion by a government facility. Which is against the law.

Your 'but-but-but it was only allowed for pick-up' excuse is as pathetic as the people who claimed they would allow any religious book but turned out to be liars.

You can't allow people to make up their own religions and be afforded the same benefits as real religions.


We can, and do, allow this all of the time. The recognition is limited in some instances, but only where there is a compelling reason to do so. I feel hard pressed to find a particularly compelling reason in this instance why the 'wiccans'* should be denied equal protection.

*Let us be clear, I'm not a religious guy, and I knew a lot of fake lesbian/wiccan types in grade school, and I found them obnoxious.
 
2012-01-19 10:27:04 AM  

Voiceofreason01: Wicca only dates back to the 1950's and the neopaganism that most of these witchcraft types practice is even younger than that.

/just sayin'


It at least admits that the majority of its rituals come at least partially from centuries- and millennia-old tribal religious structures in Europe. Which is more than Christianity does.

For fark's sake, for pure tradition Christianity is better at pagan festivals than modern pagans.
 
2012-01-19 10:27:08 AM  

Jixa: I will not rest until all schools and public buildings have at least one of these on a shelf.

[soul1.altervista.org image 640x497]


You're just not satisfied unless there is a zombie apocalypse, are you? Well, me and my boomstick will be ready for this...
 
2012-01-19 10:27:28 AM  

Dinki: ExperianScaresCthulhu: What she did was the equivalent of passing out a self-published treatise on local history, and demanded it be treated the same as a scholarly text published by the local university.

Yeah, unlike that scholarly text the bible, right?


Yes, unlike that very old, very well studied text the bible. The bible has the power of age behind it, and a living line of oral and written traditions which have sprouted up around it dating back thousand of years.

I don't get to demand that my handwritten thoughts on the Church of St. Philip Neri in Old Town get the same treatment as one published by a professor of UNM through the university's publishing arm. I don't get to demand those thoughts be placed in a school as an alternative, just because I disagree with the conclusions of the professor at UNM whose book is being offered.

What are the sacred texts held by pagans, though? The one or two universally respected traditions that pagans will draw from, no matter what their home tradition?
 
2012-01-19 10:28:40 AM  

Bullseyed: So Egypt doesn't exist? They never enslaved the Hebrew people? The Babylonian Empire never existed? Etc, etc.

Someone should inform the makers of all this history text books.


Gone With The Wind was a book of fiction but the Civil War still happened. Braveheart was fiction but the Scottish uprising against England still happened. The Passion of the Christ was fiction but... well, no, still fiction.
 
2012-01-19 10:29:13 AM  

Bullseyed: So did the student go to the office to pick one up or was he given one?


He went to the office to go pick one up, but when he got there instead of the child picking the book up himself, a teacher gave it to him. Are you even trying here?

Either way, the distribution method is imamterial, which is why you're so bent on derailing the conversation in that direction. The issue is that the same treatment was denied to other religious texts, and is therefore illegal.
 
2012-01-19 10:30:59 AM  

Bullseyed: Farking Canuck: Bullseyed: The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

And when someone wanted to make a non-christian text 'available for pick-up' they changed the rules.

This shows that their policy to allow any donated books was a sham ... they only ever intended to allow christian books to be 'picked up' which is explicit endorsement of a single religion by a government facility. Which is against the law.

Your 'but-but-but it was only allowed for pick-up' excuse is as pathetic as the people who claimed they would allow any religious book but turned out to be liars.

Troll harder. There is nothing in the article to state that this was another religion book. It says it was "her spell book". For all we know this particular woman was the author. People immediately tried to leap to the book of wicca or the necronomicon, but if it was those books the article would have said it.

You can't allow people to make up their own religions and be afforded the same benefits as real religions.


How come no one complains when 6th and 7th graders read the Illiad and the Odyssey for history class? Greek and Roman mythology is paganism, but I don't see the atheists complaining.


We don't. We also don't complain when excerpts from the Bible are used in History, English, etc. Greek/Roman mythology is important to our culture. So is the Bible. These things are an important part of our history and culture that should be studied in school. The problem we have is wanting to teach the Bible as truth, and to bring God into the science curriculum. Or, as in this case, the school/government clearly favoring one religion over the other instead of giving all faiths equal treatment.
 
2012-01-19 10:31:12 AM  

Bloody William: Voiceofreason01: Wicca only dates back to the 1950's and the neopaganism that most of these witchcraft types practice is even younger than that.

/just sayin'

It at least admits that the majority of its rituals come at least partially from centuries- and millennia-old tribal religious structures in Europe. Which is more than Christianity does.

For fark's sake, for pure tradition Christianity is better at pagan festivals than modern pagans.


HEY! Christians co-opted those festivals in order to suppress whatever local pagan traditions fair and square!
 
2012-01-19 10:33:02 AM  

Teknowaffle: LordJiro: Teknowaffle: Paganism and wiccanism. The hipsters of religion.

Because religion was cooler before that whole Jesus guy.

So Buddhists, Jews, and members of any other religion that came before Jesus are hipsters?

/Not pagan or wiccan, just poking fun at your definition of religious hipsters.

Yeah, but there are millions of buddhists, Jews and the like. Wiccanism and Paganism are for a weird few who crave religion and spirituality, but can't handle the thought of being "mainstream"


I think it's more that Wiccans are less about wanting to believe in a non-mainstream faith, and more about finding a different point of view in how they choose to worship Deity. Besides, any student of history knows that pagan-based faiths came first, and Christianity took most of the local traditions to make it seems more palatable a choice for people to change from their old faiths to this new stuff.

/Is a Wiccan
//For 15 years
 
2012-01-19 10:33:23 AM  

Bullseyed: Farking Canuck: Bullseyed: The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

And when someone wanted to make a non-christian text 'available for pick-up' they changed the rules.

This shows that their policy to allow any donated books was a sham ... they only ever intended to allow christian books to be 'picked up' which is explicit endorsement of a single religion by a government facility. Which is against the law.

Your 'but-but-but it was only allowed for pick-up' excuse is as pathetic as the people who claimed they would allow any religious book but turned out to be liars.

Troll harder. There is nothing in the article to state that this was another religion book. It says it was "her spell book". For all we know this particular woman was the author. People immediately tried to leap to the book of wicca or the necronomicon, but if it was those books the article would have said it.

You can't allow people to make up their own religions and be afforded the same benefits as real religions.


How come no one complains when 6th and 7th graders read the Illiad and the Odyssey for history class? Greek and Roman mythology is paganism, but I don't see the atheists complaining.


Weird... I remember reading them in my literature class, not history class.
 
2012-01-19 10:33:35 AM  
This would have been lulzier if she handed them the Satanic Bible.

It's the flying spaghetti monster all over again. They like to say "We just want to show ALL possible origins of life". So, you wanna teach how the ancient Egyptians believe the world was created from Ra's jizz? Or about Ymir sucking on the udders of a cow that produced mead?
 
2012-01-19 10:34:00 AM  

Bullseyed: abb3w: Bullseyed: The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

...apparently allowing a release from normal instructional time to do so. And, yes, reportedly at least one teacher (an agent of the school) handed at least one Bible to one student who went to the main office to pick one up.

So did the student go to the office to pick one up or was he given one?

You can't even keep the story straight in a few sentences...


Whether a student went to go pick up a bible is totally irrelevant. The issue is that one religious group was allowed to have its book available and the other was not. How, or whether, it was actually disseminated amongst the student body would be irrelevant to a court on this particular issue.
 
2012-01-19 10:34:22 AM  

ExperianScaresCthulhu: Yes, unlike that very old, very well studied text the bible. The bible has the power of age behind it, and a living line of oral and written traditions which have sprouted up around it dating back thousand of years.

I don't get to demand that my handwritten thoughts on the Church of St. Philip Neri in Old Town get the same treatment as one published by a professor of UNM through the university's publishing arm. I don't get to demand those thoughts be placed in a school as an alternative, just because I disagree with the conclusions of the professor at UNM whose book is being offered.


You're making a false analogy. The Bibles in question aren't being used as part of any sort of educational study. They are being offered as religious promotion only. Bibles are studied in public schools all the time as part of english, history, and compartiive religion classes, to name a few. No sane person has a problem with that.

the issue with this school is that the bibles are not being used for educations l purposes, but for religious promotion. When that happens, you're not allowed to promote one religion over others. This is very basic Constitutioanl stuff here, it's not that difficult.
 
2012-01-19 10:34:30 AM  

Egoy3k: Bullseyed: How is a spellbook comparable to a book of stories to begin with?

That is like comparing the Anarchist's Cookbook to a Biography of Tim McVeigh.

Only if you think that the spells contained in that book will actually work......

You don't actually think that do you?


I scrolled down eagerly awaiting his reply, but there was none. So I'll do it for him.

(high pitched voice, thrown voice) The devil's greatest trick was makin you think he weren't real!
 
2012-01-19 10:35:32 AM  

Bloody William: Bullseyed: How is a spellbook comparable to a book of stories to begin with?

For fark's sake, RTFA. She didn't offer to give out spellbooks. She offered to give out books explaining Pagan faith. Once you get past the teenage phase of wanting to do magic, something that isn't practiced in the way you think it is, paganism is just another spiritual path. You pray, you celebrate holidays, you show respect to nature/totems/goddesses/whatever you worship, and any "spells" are little more than a cross between homeopathic medicine and the same prayers football players, soldiers, and test takers say to get the outcomes they want.


Is there an alternative news link to this story which states that, that she gave out books explaining Pagan faith? Because the Fox link above is still saying, quote, "According to Strivelli, the principal assured her the school would make available religious texts donated by any group. But when Strivelli showed up at the school with pagan spell books, she was turned away" -- and that's ALL they're stating about the contents of the books.

As for the rest, my understanding is that 'Spells' are potent and have power. They are not rote. They are not recipes. They are not to be used lightly, or abused., no matter how 'small' the focus of the spell.

What is the spiritual path of her paganism? Does she have a website? Does her coven have an online presence?
 
2012-01-19 10:37:15 AM  

colithian: So, you wanna teach how the ancient Egyptians believe the world was created from Ra's jizz?


img804.imageshack.us
 
2012-01-19 10:37:36 AM  

Bullseyed: You can't allow people to make up their own religions and be afforded the same benefits as real religions.


What exactly makes something a 'real' religion as opposed to a made up one?
 
2012-01-19 10:38:04 AM  

Gleeman: Spellbook? Oh I see...fake Wiccans. Gotta love them.


/worked with a self-proclaimed 'Warlock' who would put hexes on our supervisor
//good times


Let me guess. He was fat, had an odd-shaped head, balding but somehow still had long hair, a goatee, and drew anime furries?

Just a shot in the dark.
 
2012-01-19 10:38:10 AM  

Bullseyed: You can't allow people to make up their own religions and be afforded the same benefits as real religions.


So that is how you are going to get around the constitution's "Freedom of Religion" provisions?? Define the ones you don't like as not being real religions.

You are a tru 'murican!
 
2012-01-19 10:38:52 AM  
Christianity is the complete negation of common sense and sound reason.
-- Mikhail Bakunin

There's a sucker born every minute.
-- P. T. Barnum
 
2012-01-19 10:41:59 AM  
Before I left for lunch I predicted that Bullseyed would continue to miss the point that the method of handing out or leaving on the floor was irrelevant. It's nice to see that idiocy remains predictable.

I had a nice salad.
 
2012-01-19 10:42:15 AM  

glassbottomboatcaptain: Egoy3k: Bullseyed: How is a spellbook comparable to a book of stories to begin with?

That is like comparing the Anarchist's Cookbook to a Biography of Tim McVeigh.

Only if you think that the spells contained in that book will actually work......

You don't actually think that do you?

I scrolled down eagerly awaiting his reply, but there was none. So I'll do it for him.

(high pitched voice, thrown voice) The devil's greatest trick was makin you think he weren't real!


Thanks! I was really hoping for a reaction to that too.
 
2012-01-19 10:43:50 AM  

Egoy3k: Bullseyed: You can't allow people to make up their own religions and be afforded the same benefits as real religions.

What exactly makes something a 'real' religion as opposed to a made up one?


I believe the Flying Spaghetti Monster will field that question.
 
2012-01-19 10:43:55 AM  

Tigger: Problem: you didn't read the article. They were not passed out. Essentially they were left on the floor in a box in the hallway. A couple of kids took them home of their own free will and free choice.

Problem: You don't understand the issue.

You'll probably keep bashing away at it though but here's what you're missing.

The distinction between whether they were passed out or put in a box is irrelevant. It doesn't matter. You keep drawing that distinction and it keeps being a total non-issue.

The issue is that books of type 1 were allowed to be left on the floor in a box in the hallway and books of type 2 were potentially not allowed to be left on the floor in a box in the hallway.


There is no indication that type 2 is a recognized mainstream religion. Again, my religion is pornologism, can I go hand out naked pictures to kids?

I'm sure if it was Muslim/Jewish/Buddhist/Hinduist texts there would be far less of an issue.
 
2012-01-19 10:44:34 AM  

The Homer Tax: Bullseyed: So did the student go to the office to pick one up or was he given one?

He went to the office to go pick one up, but when he got there instead of the child picking the book up himself, a teacher gave it to him. Are you even trying here?


Are you seriously splitting that hair?
 
2012-01-19 10:44:58 AM  

nekom: Donated or not, a public school is no place to be passing out bibles or any religious things. You know what would be a really appropriate place to pass out bibles? Church.


...or an optional (key word "optional") cultural anthropology course of some sort.
 
2012-01-19 10:44:59 AM  

machoprogrammer: How can people be Pagan/Wicca? Seriously... You can cast a "spell", see it doesn't work, and viola, it is disproved. At least with the other religions, when praying, you rely on God to do it for you so you can just say he didn't grant your prayer when it doesn't do anything. A spell and you are on your own.

That, and it was made in the 1950s, so it is pretty easy to see it was all made up, since there are billions of people who were alive before it existed. Like Scientology.


It doesn't work because they aren't powerful enough! To get more powerful they must kill deer and dance naked in the woods and have sex with their wizard leader.
 
2012-01-19 10:45:08 AM  

ExperianScaresCthulhu: Is there an alternative news link to this story which states that, that she gave out books explaining Pagan faith?


NC mom can't donate pagan books to son's school

Technically the only people who have referred to them as "spell books" are the Fox article's author and Subby.
 
2012-01-19 10:46:21 AM  

Tapakip: [a57.foxnews.com image 396x223]

I'd hit it. The one on the right, of course.

/foxnews has the image labeled as TheCraft1, real nice


Granted Fox News is known for their affronts and such, but the book on the bench is called 'The Craft'
 
2012-01-19 10:46:45 AM  

ExperianScaresCthulhu: abb3w:
[30.media.tumblr.com image 500x313]

What did Aasimov mean by his quote? Why is it the most potent force for atheism? and why is it more potent than other holy texts?


I think it is because it is so highly valued. If you consider that it is 'the book' for the west and then actually perform an in-depth, critical analysis of it, you will realize what a crock of shiat religion is.

The book is muddled and extremely self contradicting. People use it as their moral compass even though it blatantly supports extremely immoral things like slavery. Once you see the whole book and then look at the excessive cherry picking that its followers do, you realize that it is nothing but a tool for manipulation.

Put all that together and you can't help question anything and everything these people say. Which, IMO, was Asimov's point.
 
2012-01-19 10:46:47 AM  

Teknowaffle: Because religion was cooler before that whole Jesus guy.


Well, to be fair... Jesus wasn't exactly a fan of religion (new window).
 
2012-01-19 10:48:49 AM  

Callous: Are you seriously splitting that hair?


I'm not, Bullseyed is. I have stated over and over against that method of disemination is immaterial to the discussion.
 
2012-01-19 10:49:11 AM  
Egoy3k Bullseyed: You can't allow people to make up their own religions and be afforded the same benefits as real religions.

What exactly makes something a 'real' religion as opposed to a made up one?


Longevity and popularity. Have both, and it's legit. Have longevity only, and it's a dead religion. Have popularity only, it's considered made up.
 
2012-01-19 10:49:46 AM  

Bullseyed: It doesn't work because they aren't powerful enough! To get more powerful they must kill deer and dance naked in the woods and have sex with their wizard leader.


That's actually kind of offensive.

/FARK!
//Also, any pagan church can be recognized as a 501(c)(3) tax exempt organization just like any Christian church, as long as it meets the same requirements. And those requirements aren't "popularity."

Actually, no slashies. Here are the requirements any pagan church can meet:

the organization must be organized and operated
exclusively for religious, educational, scientific, or other
charitable purposes,
■ net earnings may not inure to the benefit of any
private individual or shareholder,
■ no substantial part of its activity may be attempting
to influence legislation,
■ the organization may not intervene in political
campaigns, and
■ the organization's purposes and activities may not
be illegal or violate fundamental public policy
 
2012-01-19 10:50:04 AM  

Magorn: Jake Havechek: Paganism....

You mean like symbolically ingesting the body and blood of a divine being as a regular ceremony? Believing a guy was killed, came back to life 3 days later, and then floated up into the sky?

That kind of paganism?

There is a reason that, of the 3 or 4 dozen Pagans i know personally, about 90% are ex-Catholics



Even the briefest study of history shows the reason:

img850.imageshack.us
 
2012-01-19 10:50:09 AM  

Bloody William: Bullseyed: Problem: you didn't read the article. They were not passed out. Essentially they were left on the floor in a box in the hallway. A couple of kids took them home of their own free will and free choice.

On school grounds, religious documents were given away. Not hard to see that there's a problem there. If the school wasn't actively handing out Bibles, it was serving as a vending machine for kids to take a religious document that many atheists, agnostics and pagans find inappropriate and downright morally offensive.

fark, I grew up Jewish in rural Pennsylvania, and even than the Christiany bouts of religious pressure from time to time were awkward. For non-semitic people that's only worse.

The Bible has some good teachings and we could learn a lot about morality and history from it. However, it is still a hateful book with many chapters that simply say if you do not follow a specific spiritual path you will be tortured eternally, regardless of how good a person you are through your acts.


Only the Jewish parts are like that.
 
2012-01-19 10:50:47 AM  
Bullseyed:

Also, I noticed you haven't responded to the Lemon Test standards for religious endorsement. Or really anything else substantive. Are you a troll?
 
2012-01-19 10:51:18 AM  

THX 1138: Bullseyed: They were not passed out. Essentially they were left on the floor in a box in the hallway. A couple of kids took them home of their own free will and free choice.

By this logic, welfare isn't "given out" by the government if the recipient is the active party in obtaining the physical check.


You have to apply for welfare, no?
 
2012-01-19 10:51:20 AM  

Auggie: Tapakip: [a57.foxnews.com image 396x223]

I'd hit it. The one on the right, of course.

/foxnews has the image labeled as TheCraft1, real nice

Granted Fox News is known for their affronts and such, but the book on the bench is called 'The Craft'


Good catch. My eyes were too busy looking at other things.
 
2012-01-19 10:51:34 AM  
Some of the wonderfully colorful phrases from that hate-filled snuff book:

Zechariah 13:3 - If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.

Nahum 1:2-8 - The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night.

1 Kings 20:35-36 - Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 - If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Etc, etc.
 
2012-01-19 10:51:50 AM  

Bullseyed: Only the Jewish parts are like that.


Wow, really? I was specifically referring to the doctrine of salvation by faith.

You're a troll, aren't you?
 
2012-01-19 10:52:14 AM  

abb3w: o5iiawah: While the bibles in the front office dont display excessive preference, it has clearly excluded another religion from distributing its texts.

Actually, the excuse is that it's because the lawyers are reviewing the policy because it's NOT clear the original distribution was... er, kosher... for an elementary school.

Bullseyed: The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

...apparently allowing a release from normal instructional time to do so. And, yes, reportedly at least one teacher (an agent of the school) handed at least one Bible to one student who went to the main office to pick one up.

mekki: The only time you should be allowed to pass out Bibles in a public school is for English class.

As a secularist, I'd prefer that only the excerpts being covered in the class be included, rather than the whole thing. That said, I can see how some people might reasonably disagree on that.

[30.media.tumblr.com image 500x313]


I like your style, I have this on the shelf at home Issac Asimov's Guide to the Bible
Was more or less forced to go to the Assemblies of God(3times a week) church as a youngster. Have been an atheist since I was 14.
/preacher asked me to leave and not come back my senior year as I was in his words "an unbelieving bad influence"
//I answered amen
 
2012-01-19 10:53:07 AM  

PanicMan: Sybilsue Strivelli? That's a hell of a name.


Considering the mother is a Pagan, I'd say there's a reason for that name (new window).

/I'm a bit of a religious history geek.
 
2012-01-19 10:53:15 AM  

Bloody William: Bullseyed:

Also, I noticed you haven't responded to the Lemon Test standards for religious endorsement. Or really anything else substantive. Are you a troll?



Bullseyed: Only the Jewish parts are like that.


I think we have our answer. To be fair, he could just be really, really, really dumb/ignorant and actually believe what he's saying.
 
2012-01-19 10:56:32 AM  
Bravo Bullseye, you even got me to respond. You strike just the right balance of seeming sincerity and condescension while using a myriad of logical fallacies to both advance your position and whip up the opposition. Well done, one of the best trolls I've seen in a long while.
 
2012-01-19 10:56:40 AM  

phyrkrakr: dready zim: Druids. Aren`t they a victorian invention? or is that pagans?

I know one of those `thousands of years old` pseudo-religious things was invented by victorians

The catholic encyclopedia says "Paganism, in the broadest sense includes all religions other than the true one revealed by God, and, in a narrower sense, all except Christianity, Judaism, and Mohammedanism. The term is also used as the equivalent of Polytheism."

bold is mine. I would say the bold is subject to discussion...

Don`t they all claim that? isn`t christianity itself pagan under that definition to other religions?

Generally speaking, I always thought of pagan as meaning an irreligious, non-spiritual person. Like "heathens" just slightly less hairy and stabby, but more drinky and orgy-y.


Paganism (from Latin paganus, meaning "country dweller", "rustic") is a blanket term, typically used to refer to non-Abrahamic, indigenous polytheistic religious traditions.

It is primarily used in a historical context, referring to Greco-Roman polytheism as well as the polytheistic traditions of Europe and North Africa before Christianization. In a wider sense, extended to contemporary religions, it includes most of the Eastern religions and the indigenous traditions of the Americas, Central Asia, Australia and Africa; as well as non-Abrahamic folk religion in general.


Any religion that isn't Jewish/Christian/Muslim is pagan/heathen. Especially so if they are polytheistic.
 
2012-01-19 10:57:25 AM  

nekom: Donated or not, a public school is no place to be passing out bibles or any religious things. You know what would be a really appropriate place to pass out bibles? Church Hotels?

 
2012-01-19 10:57:29 AM  

Callous: Having religious texts in the school library, just like any other reference material, seems perfectly appropriate, but to hand it out doesn't. Unless of coarse it pertains to the lesson being taught. The problem becomes that there's so many different religions out there that some discrimination must occur or there will just be far too much material to effectively study any of them. And someone is going to get offended and scream about it.


A bible in the library would be fine, as a matter of fact I think they should teach objective classes on the religions of the world in high school, I had one in college and it was quite interesting. You really do need to understand the history of a few major religions to fully understand the geopolitical landscape and problems such as terrorism and the situation with Israel/Palestine.
 
2012-01-19 10:58:04 AM  

The Homer Tax: I think we have our answer. To be fair, he could just be really, really, really dumb/ignorant and actually believe what he's saying.


That's the problem. It's hard to tell.
 
2012-01-19 10:59:08 AM  

ExperianScaresCthulhu: Bloody William: Bullseyed: How is a spellbook comparable to a book of stories to begin with?

For fark's sake, RTFA. She didn't offer to give out spellbooks. She offered to give out books explaining Pagan faith. Once you get past the teenage phase of wanting to do magic, something that isn't practiced in the way you think it is, paganism is just another spiritual path. You pray, you celebrate holidays, you show respect to nature/totems/goddesses/whatever you worship, and any "spells" are little more than a cross between homeopathic medicine and the same prayers football players, soldiers, and test takers say to get the outcomes they want.

Is there an alternative news link to this story which states that, that she gave out books explaining Pagan faith? Because the Fox link above is still saying, quote, "According to Strivelli, the principal assured her the school would make available religious texts donated by any group. But when Strivelli showed up at the school with pagan spell books, she was turned away" -- and that's ALL they're stating about the contents of the books.

As for the rest, my understanding is that 'Spells' are potent and have power. They are not rote. They are not recipes. They are not to be used lightly, or abused., no matter how 'small' the focus of the spell.

What is the spiritual path of her paganism? Does she have a website? Does her coven have an online presence?


I'm not trying to be dick here, but unless the material contained therein is otherwise prohibited by law the exact contents of the religious book are somewhat irrelevant. For example, as a previous remark illustrated, if the text was actually pornography then it could lawfully be prohibited from distribution in a grade school. The fact that the book could be construed as a ritual instruction guide is not in itself a reason to deny equal protection; it would be like saying that a guide on the rituals at a Roman Catholic mass is questionable as religious material.
 
2012-01-19 10:59:43 AM  

Bloody William: Bullseyed: How is a spellbook comparable to a book of stories to begin with?

For fark's sake, RTFA. She didn't offer to give out spellbooks. She offered to give out books explaining Pagan faith.


Dear Retard,

From the article:

"According to Strivelli, the principal assured her the school would make available religious texts donated by any group. But when Strivelli showed up at the school with pagan spell books, she was turned away."


Please report to the second grade. You'll start with "see spot run" and work your way up to "snow white and the seven dwarves".
 
2012-01-19 10:59:53 AM  

Bullseyed: Any religion that isn't Jewish/Christian/Muslim is pagan/heathen. Especially so if they are polytheistic.


Fail.

Christianity is polytheistic (they worship 3 gods). And most of Christianity has devolved into blatant idol worship anyway (crosses, magical beads, etc).
 
2012-01-19 11:01:04 AM  

DVDave: nekom: Donated or not, a public school is no place to be passing out bibles or any religious things. You know what would be a really appropriate place to pass out bibles? Church Hotels?


Hey- don't knock the Gideons! They've been placing free rolling papers in hotel rooms for decades now.
 
2012-01-19 11:02:11 AM  

The Homer Tax:
Bullseyed: Only the Jewish parts are like that.

I think we have our answer. To be fair, he could just be really, really, really dumb/ignorant and actually believe what he's saying.


Does it matter?
If he is just that dumb/ignorant, it is pointless to engage with him, he'll just inore what we say, whargarble as loud as he can, and declare himself the winner.
If he's a troll, he'll smile to himself, whargarble as loud as he can, and declare himself the winner.

/arguing on the net....special olympics....all that jazz
 
2012-01-19 11:02:55 AM  

Bloody William: ExperianScaresCthulhu: Besides, for me, it's always frustrating to read about so-called witches handing out spellbooks and trading spellbooks. If that's your tradition, that's your tradition. But that's not paganism. That's superstition.

All religion is superstition given varying amounts of credence by society based purely on how popular it is.

Guess what? Most prayers that aren't completely devotional in Christianity are little more than spells. They appeal to power to get things to go your way. For fark's sake, how are baptism and communion anything less than full-blown magical rituals to imbue some spiritual presence in a person through unusual and unbelievable means?

Also, she didn't offer to hand out a "spellbook," and for most pagans even "spellbooks" are little more than hymnals to conduct the same sorts of prayers and rituals every other religion does.


From the article, direct quote:

"According to Strivelli, the principal assured her the school would make available religious texts donated by any group. But when Strivelli showed up at the school with pagan spell books, she was turned away."


Please don't vote as you are illiterate.
 
2012-01-19 11:04:55 AM  

Leeds: And most of Christianity has devolved into blatant idol worship anyway (crosses, magical beads, etc).


YEAH, and if you are going to get a god damn accurate description of a religion it is CERTAINLY gonna come from an anti-religion troll like Leeds.
 
2012-01-19 11:05:15 AM  

Tapakip: Auggie: Tapakip: [a57.foxnews.com image 396x223]

I'd hit it. The one on the right, of course.

/foxnews has the image labeled as TheCraft1, real nice

Granted Fox News is known for their affronts and such, but the book on the bench is called 'The Craft'

Good catch. My eyes were too busy looking at other things.


Yeah, hopefully you're still focusing on the right hand side of the bench
 
2012-01-19 11:05:29 AM  

Bedstead Polisher: Farking Canuck: Bullseyed: The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

And when someone wanted to make a non-christian text 'available for pick-up' they changed the rules.

This shows that their policy to allow any donated books was a sham ... they only ever intended to allow christian books to be 'picked up' which is explicit endorsement of a single religion by a government facility. Which is against the law.

Your 'but-but-but it was only allowed for pick-up' excuse is as pathetic as the people who claimed they would allow any religious book but turned out to be liars.

But it has to be the right kind of Christianity. Even according to the Pagan lady:

"Many Christians have stood up and said they agree with me too," Strivelli said. "Because, as much as they may like the Bible, they don't want Jehovah's Witnesses coming in with Watch Tower (magazines) or Catholics coming in and having them pray the Rosary."


Important to note that the Watchtower Magazine is not a religious text and praying the rosary isn't a text at all.

Sounds like this pagan woman is intellectually challenged.
 
2012-01-19 11:05:38 AM  

Bullseyed: Tigger: Problem: you didn't read the article. They were not passed out. Essentially they were left on the floor in a box in the hallway. A couple of kids took them home of their own free will and free choice.

Problem: You don't understand the issue.

You'll probably keep bashing away at it though but here's what you're missing.

The distinction between whether they were passed out or put in a box is irrelevant. It doesn't matter. You keep drawing that distinction and it keeps being a total non-issue.

The issue is that books of type 1 were allowed to be left on the floor in a box in the hallway and books of type 2 were potentially not allowed to be left on the floor in a box in the hallway.

There is no indication that type 2 is a recognized mainstream religion. Again, my religion is pornologism, can I go hand out naked pictures to kids?

I'm sure if it was Muslim/Jewish/Buddhist/Hinduist texts there would be far less of an issue.


Your question here has already been answered. No, you could not hand out pornography to children, even if it were part of your religious beliefs. Where the gov't has a compelling interest it may curtail fundamental rights and deny equal protections. It could be reasonably argued that preventing the distribution of pornography to minors is a compelling interest of the gov't. In fact, the gov't has curtailed this right by making illegal the distribution of pornography to minors. Your position on this matter would hold if the contents of the 'spell-book' were similarly illegal.
 
2012-01-19 11:06:13 AM  

Jake Havechek: No, you can't do that.

Of course the poor poor oppressed Christians will kick a fit, but fark 'em.


Did you read the article? Apparently not.
 
2012-01-19 11:06:42 AM  

nekom: Callous: Having religious texts in the school library, just like any other reference material, seems perfectly appropriate, but to hand it out doesn't. Unless of coarse it pertains to the lesson being taught. The problem becomes that there's so many different religions out there that some discrimination must occur or there will just be far too much material to effectively study any of them. And someone is going to get offended and scream about it.

A bible in the library would be fine, as a matter of fact I think they should teach objective classes on the religions of the world in high school, I had one in college and it was quite interesting. You really do need to understand the history of a few major religions to fully understand the geopolitical landscape and problems such as terrorism and the situation with Israel/Palestine.


To completely exclude religion from the classroom is going to make history a little hard to teach or understand. It's also going to leave the student ill prepared to deal with the world we live in.
 
2012-01-19 11:08:18 AM  

safeforwork: My half-sister in-law's mom is a pagan living on the TN/NC border. She runs a B&B and gives weddings on her property. She passes out condoms with her place advertised on them. She's *real* popular with the locals, let me tell you...

/got nothin, article just reminded me of her
//usually ends up marrying off the 'freaks and heretics' of the community, by which I mean people who dared get divorced and married again, or the bride and groom aren't uncomfortably close relatives of each other...


send me a link to her place, I would love to send business there. She sounds cool.
/athiest living on the NC/TN border
 
2012-01-19 11:08:31 AM  

Bullseyed: From the article, direct quote:

From another article on the exact same thing, actually directly reporting it as a regional publication and not national news:

Ginger Strivelli's fifth-grade son last month brought home a Bible given away at North Windy Ridge school, but when she offered free copies of books explaining her pagan faith on Wednesday she was told administrators were not accepting any religious materials while they review current policies.

 
2012-01-19 11:09:41 AM  
"The Gideons International had delivered several boxes of the sacred books to the school office"
Really Fox News, that's not bias?
 
2012-01-19 11:11:12 AM  

Cheesus: Bullseyed: AngryPanda: Bullseyed: The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.

"Schools should not be giving out one religion's materials and not others," Strivelli said.


The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

Is the school giving out children when they allow parents to pick their kids up?

How's this for a compromise? A public school shouldn't be offering religious texts at all.

Public schools should be a state/local issue and can do whatever they want regarding religious texts.

If it's unconstitutional, no they cannot.


I'm sure you, like the millions of other uneducated mouthy people in this country have bought into the false notion that the Constitution includes a separation of Church and state.

The media has tried for a long time to brainwash this concept into the American people, when in fact the term was used by Thomas Jefferson in his private writings to the Danbury Baptist Association. The only information in the Constitution on the topic is that the federal government cannot declare an official country wide religion.

Since all powers not in the Constitution are given to the states, how far the government wants to separate from religion is a state issue.
 
2012-01-19 11:12:05 AM  

Jake Havechek: Bullseyed: oryx: Review period indeed. So they're not accepting religious book donations until things cool down! The law is clear that you if accept religious book donations you can't allow some and reject others, so it's best not to accept any at all. What is there to review?

If the law was indeed clear you would be able to cite this law, no?

/oh right, it doesn't exist.

It's called the Establishment Clause. If you knew a damn thing at all about your own country, you'd know this.


The Establishment Clause isn't a law, it is a protected right within the Constitution. Since the school isn't the federal government, it doesn't apply.
 
2012-01-19 11:13:50 AM  

Cheesus: Bullseyed: Cheesus: Bullseyed: The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.

"Schools should not be giving out one religion's materials and not others," Strivelli said.


The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

Is the school giving out children when they allow parents to pick their kids up?

Personally I don't have much problem with that. What I do have a problem with is them excluding other religions that want their materials given the same treatment. They cannot do that.

My religion is call pornologism. Can I now give out playboys at the local school?

Sure, you could not be excluded because of this. You could, however, be excluded because of other laws involving distributing pornography to minors.


Those laws would be unfairly harming my religion. I can therefore sue and make billions of dollars.


Except it isn't a real religion, just like how this woman's "spell books" aren't real religion either.
 
2012-01-19 11:13:51 AM  
.

Gergesa: This thread is a good chance to post pics of what a hot witch/pagan might look like.

I am at work though so I can't contribute.


Ms CJHardin, wiccan priestess.

i11.photobucket.com
 
2012-01-19 11:14:32 AM  

Bullseyed: From the article, direct quote:

"According to Strivelli, the principal assured her the school would make available religious texts donated by any group. But when Strivelli showed up at the school with pagan spell books, she was turned away."


Yes child ... and from a different article (new window), she offered "free copies of books explaining her pagan faith".

You just latch on to stupidity don't you? First it was the completely irrelevant "they were just left to be picked up" and now it is the idiotic "her's was a spell book which doesn't count". Your magic book is OK but her magic book doesn't qualify?? Moran.
 
2012-01-19 11:15:38 AM  
Bullseyed:

Establishment Clause. 14th Amendment. Lemon Test. Lemon v. Kurtzman. Lee v. Weisman. Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District. Lynch v. Donnelly. Treaty of Tripoli. Treaty Clause.

Read up on any of these subjects before you talk about states' rights, no separation of church and state, or "media brainwashing."
 
2012-01-19 11:15:40 AM  

dxk3355: "The Gideons International had delivered several boxes of the sacred books to the school office"
Really Fox News, that's not bias?


No, it's not:

1 a : dedicated or set apart for the service or worship of a deity
b : devoted exclusively to one service or use (as of a person or purpose)

2 a : worthy of religious veneration : holy
b : entitled to reverence and respect

3 : of or relating to religion : not secular or profane


Even an atheist, for example, could call the Bible sacred under (1) and (3). Not saying that Fox has no bias, but this isn't an example of it.
 
2012-01-19 11:16:19 AM  
The sidebar on the right is again offering religious degrees.

Are there atheist degrees available somewhere?

Tooth Fairy degrees?
 
2012-01-19 11:16:45 AM  

Bullseyed: Except it isn't a real religion, just like how this woman's "spell books" aren't real religion either.


Still not gonna respond to the whole 501(c)(3) standards for church status thing?
 
2012-01-19 11:16:57 AM  

Bullseyed: Except it isn't a real religion, just like how this woman's these Gideon's "spell books" aren't real religion either.


FTFY
 
2012-01-19 11:17:19 AM  

Civil Discourse: Bullseyed: o5iiawah: The actions by the school fail the 3-pronged Lemon vs Kurtzman test on 2 fronts.

While the bibles in the front office dont display excessive preference, it has clearly excluded another religion from distributing its texts. Also, the distribution of bibles doesn't fill any secular purpose. I predict the fist of courts coming soon.

Is this particular woman's coven registered as a religion? Don't you have to establish a not-for-profit, a place of worship, a roster of followers and a bunch of other stuff to be declared a religion in terms of tax purposes?

I think a coven is closer to a congregation than an underlying religion, so I think the more appropriate question would be the underlying religion's recognition by the IRS. There are certain requirements for favorable tax treatment, but I'm not sure that this line of questioning really matters in this circumstance.
A denial of a particular tax treatment does not deny a religion from being recognized otherwise. When the government denies equal protection to a protected class, or deprives a fundamental right, it must do so as narrowly as possible. Furthermore, the Gov't must have a compelling interest in doing so. It seems reasonable to say that preventing tax fraud is a fairly compelling interest. In contrast, I can not seem to think of a truly compelling reason for allowing one religious book to be available over another. In essence, the presumption is that the religion is recognized in all circumstances. Where there is a compelling reason to not recognize the religion, the denial is only valid in that specific context.


If there is no process for validating a religion, then one can make up whatever religion they so choose.

My religion involves rich people giving me lots of money, being able to sleep with any woman I choose at any time, and giving free naked pictures of myself to whomever I want whenever I want. I'll call it Gangstaologim. It'll be a huge hit with the kids rap and sexting culture.

But again, not a real religion, just like how this random woman's spell book isn't a religion either.
 
2012-01-19 11:18:32 AM  

part of the problem: (And before anyone flames the Christian biologist reference, dude has done more to save the Smokies than your Chris Hitchens reading group so put a cork in it.)


What's wrong with a Christian being a biologist? Unless you think Christianity and curiosity are mutually exclusive, that is. Most of the scientific advances since the renaissance in Europe were done by Christians (of one flavor or another) investigating God's Universe. The idea that you can't ask questions isn't all that common among the religious, only the ones who think everything in the bible is literally true as written, in my experience.
 
2012-01-19 11:19:05 AM  

Inflatable Rhetoric: The sidebar on the right is again offering religious degrees.

Are there atheist degrees available somewhere?

Tooth Fairy degrees?


The ad I'm seeing is much more unintentionally hilarious.

i.imgur.com
 
2012-01-19 11:19:45 AM  

Bullseyed: But again, not a real religion, just like how this random woman's spell book isn't a religion either.


Then why is is recognized by the US armed forces as a legitimate religion?

Your troll-foo is weak, jeebus-farker.
 
2012-01-19 11:20:21 AM  

Bullseyed: My religion involves rich people giving me lots of money,


the organization must be organized and operated
exclusively for religious, educational, scientific, or other
charitable purposes,
■ net earnings may not inure to the benefit of any
private individual or shareholder,

There you go. You don't meet the standards. And you have the attention span of a ferret and the temperament of a douchebag.
 
2012-01-19 11:22:05 AM  

Civil Discourse: Bullseyed: Cheesus: Bullseyed: The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.

"Schools should not be giving out one religion's materials and not others," Strivelli said.


The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

Is the school giving out children when they allow parents to pick their kids up?

Personally I don't have much problem with that. What I do have a problem with is them excluding other religions that want their materials given the same treatment. They cannot do that.

My religion is call pornologism. Can I now give out playboys at the local school?

No. Your rights can be curtailed by the government, and they must have a compelling reason to do so. You may disagree with it personally, but a court is incredibly likely to find that preventing the distribution of pornography to minors is a compelling interest of the state. In fact, it's already against the law.


I was unaware that the establishment clause said freedom of religion when it is convenient.

However, you did manage to go and prove my point for me. The government has precedent in deciding whether a religion is valid or not. Ergo the school may also exercise such decision making as an agent of the government.

Game. Set. Match.
 
2012-01-19 11:22:57 AM  

Xenomech: Magorn: Jake Havechek: Paganism....

You mean like symbolically ingesting the body and blood of a divine being as a regular ceremony? Believing a guy was killed, came back to life 3 days later, and then floated up into the sky?

That kind of paganism?

There is a reason that, of the 3 or 4 dozen Pagans i know personally, about 90% are ex-Catholics


Even the briefest study of history shows the reason:

[img850.imageshack.us image 400x300]


Nahh it's just cause they miss the ritual and pagentry. Being somewhat self-aware about such things lets smile when I'm sitting in the back of a giant stone church on the vigil of "Easter" with every light source extinguished while a priest blesses and lights a "sacred" bonfire and the congregation all take small candles and light them from it.

That's a very old and sacred ritual to be sure, but it sure in hell ain't "Christian" at least not in origin.
 
2012-01-19 11:23:54 AM  

deadcrickets: Bullseyed: The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.

"Schools should not be giving out one religion's materials and not others," Strivelli said.


The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

Is the school giving out children when they allow parents to pick their kids up?

And how, pray tell, did the students find out about the material again?


The article doesn't say. Unless you are one of the children who attends the school, we will never know.
 
2012-01-19 11:24:11 AM  

Bullseyed: Bloody William: ExperianScaresCthulhu: Besides, for me, it's always frustrating to read about so-called witches handing out spellbooks and trading spellbooks. If that's your tradition, that's your tradition. But that's not paganism. That's superstition.

All religion is superstition given varying amounts of credence by society based purely on how popular it is.

Guess what? Most prayers that aren't completely devotional in Christianity are little more than spells. They appeal to power to get things to go your way. For fark's sake, how are baptism and communion anything less than full-blown magical rituals to imbue some spiritual presence in a person through unusual and unbelievable means?

Also, she didn't offer to hand out a "spellbook," and for most pagans even "spellbooks" are little more than hymnals to conduct the same sorts of prayers and rituals every other religion does.

From the article, direct quote:

"According to Strivelli, the principal assured her the school would make available religious texts donated by any group. But when Strivelli showed up at the school with pagan spell books, she was turned away."


Please don't vote as you are illiterate.


Except another article a few posts up mentions that they were books explaining the faith, and that it is only Fox News using the term "spell books". And Fox News is never one to twist things of course.
 
2012-01-19 11:24:43 AM  

Leeds: Bullseyed: Except it isn't a real religion, just like how this woman's these Gideon's "spell books" aren't real religion either.

FTFY


What's the alternative to a real religion? An imaginary religion? A complex religion?

I won't mention "irrational."
 
2012-01-19 11:24:44 AM  

Bullseyed: The government has precedent in deciding whether a religion is valid or not. Ergo the school may also exercise such decision making as an agent of the government.

Game. Set. Match.


Game, set, match indeed. http://www.witchvox.com/military/xgroups_m.html
 
2012-01-19 11:24:48 AM  
The problem isn't whether the school gave them out versus allowing them to be picked up--that's just splitting hairs. The problem is that not one person in the administration said, "Hey, maybe this isn't appropriate for a public school, even if they were donated." They should have politely said, "No thanks, not appropriate here," and turned the Gideons away. Instead, this shows quite a bit of bias (Christianity is all about good stuff, right?), which is what secular schools are designed to avoid. At the very least it displays a stunning level of hypocrisy and ignorance. Are these really the people we want teaching our kids?
 
2012-01-19 11:26:11 AM  
There is no indication that type 2 is a recognized mainstream religion. Again, my religion is pornologism, can I go hand out naked pictures to kids?

Apart from the fact that this is a complete moving of the goalposts it's also irrelevant.

1) Just declaring a behavior 'religious' doesn't immediately make it legal

2) Of course you can't - in the same way that what you would refer to as "recognised mainstream religions' (i.e. they have all the other protections of a religion such as tax breaks) are not allowed to restrict medical treatment for children based on religious beliefs.

It's like you're fractally wrong - every point you make just adds further layers of wrongness. Each follow up reveals repeating levels of being wrong at every conceivable scale of resolution.
 
2012-01-19 11:26:19 AM  

I May Be Crazy But...: What's wrong with a Christian being a biologist? Unless you think Christianity and curiosity are mutually exclusive, that is. Most of the scientific advances since the renaissance in Europe were done by Christians (of one flavor or another) investigating God's Universe. The idea that you can't ask questions isn't all that common among the religious, only the ones who think everything in the bible is literally true as written, in my experience.


Yep, pretty much. My bishop is a professor and Ph.D geneticist. Another bishop I know did research supporting genetic links to homosexuality, and there wasn't even a decent lynching when he published! wtf? I was looking forward to that...

Context: these are LDS bishops, not Catholic. They are unpaid clergy that lead a single local congregation and are usually chosen from among the congregation they live in.
 
2012-01-19 11:26:35 AM  

The Homer Tax: InfamousBLT: If the school wants to give away free bibles to anyone who wants one, fine. Who cares. They weren't "passing them out," they were saying "If you want one, come get one." How is that wrong at all?

It's not necessarily, until you deny equal treatment to other religious texts. Then it is.


Interestingly enough if you read the actual article, they didn't deny anyone. The temporarily suspended the policy while the lawyers look at it to make sure they aren't liable to be sued.

After all, schools suspend little Billy for shouting Harry Potter spells and knocking other kids down, just imagine what they would do with "real" witch spells.
 
2012-01-19 11:27:32 AM  

Tigger: It's like you're fractally wrong - every point you make just adds further layers of wrongness. Each follow up reveals repeating levels of being wrong at every conceivable scale of resolution.


I haven't even been following that bit of the thread, and I have no idea what you're debating, but I love the way you said that.
 
2012-01-19 11:27:51 AM  

Inflatable Rhetoric: Leeds: Bullseyed: Except it isn't a real religion, just like how this woman's these Gideon's "spell books" aren't real religion either.

FTFY

What's the alternative to a real religion? An imaginary religion? A complex religion?

I won't mention "irrational."


I was just pointing out out the Scottsman fallacy that was inherent in that loser's claims that Paganism isn't a religion.

You are correct of course. Religions are religions.

We can debate any claims they may make about not being make-believe but we can't simply pretend that some are religions and others aren't.

Cheers.
 
2012-01-19 11:27:58 AM  
Let's turn the "it's not a real religion" thing around. Anyone who thinks this might be a legitimate argument in some circumstance, ask yourself whether you would want someone else telling you what you believe or how sincere that belief is. (Specifically, that you're just some attention hungry maniac exploiting fairy tales) If your answer is no, then do her the same courtesy. It's the Golden Rule, and it works pretty well as a guideline for how to treat people.
 
2012-01-19 11:29:25 AM  

Civil Discourse: Bullseyed: Farking Canuck: Bullseyed: The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

And when someone wanted to make a non-christian text 'available for pick-up' they changed the rules.

This shows that their policy to allow any donated books was a sham ... they only ever intended to allow christian books to be 'picked up' which is explicit endorsement of a single religion by a government facility. Which is against the law.

Your 'but-but-but it was only allowed for pick-up' excuse is as pathetic as the people who claimed they would allow any religious book but turned out to be liars.

You can't allow people to make up their own religions and be afforded the same benefits as real religions.

We can, and do, allow this all of the time. The recognition is limited in some instances, but only where there is a compelling reason to do so. I feel hard pressed to find a particularly compelling reason in this instance why the 'wiccans'* should be denied equal protection.

*Let us be clear, I'm not a religious guy, and I knew a lot of fake lesbian/wiccan types in grade school, and I found them obnoxious.


Important to note that there is no indication that this woman is a wiccan. She specifically identifies as a witch rather than a wiccan, and is trying to distribute her own pagan spell book rather than the book of wicca.

If she was part of an organized religion like wicca, she would have a more solid position. Essentially she made up her own religion and is demanding to be recognized as equal to real religions.
 
2012-01-19 11:29:52 AM  
Whenever I find a bible in a hotel room, I write in it.

Once I found one with a hole cavity in the pages and a condom in the space. More useful and beneficial than god(s).
 
2012-01-19 11:30:22 AM  

Bullseyed: Important to note that there is no indication that this woman is a wiccan. She specifically identifies as a witch rather than a wiccan, and is trying to distribute her own pagan spell book rather than the book of wicca.

If she was part of an organized religion like wicca, she would have a more solid position. Essentially she made up her own religion and is demanding to be recognized as equal to real religions.



the organization must be organized and operated
exclusively for religious, educational, scientific, or other
charitable purposes,
■ net earnings may not inure to the benefit of any
private individual or shareholder,
■ no substantial part of its activity may be attempting
to influence legislation,
■ the organization may not intervene in political
campaigns, and
■ the organization's purposes and activities may not
be illegal or violate fundamental public policy

All you need to be an "official" church.
 
2012-01-19 11:30:58 AM  

Inflatable Rhetoric: The sidebar on the right is again offering religious degrees.

Are there atheist degrees available somewhere?

Tooth Fairy degrees?


So I suppose you consider studying the works of Shakespeare ridiculous too because it's all fiction?
 
2012-01-19 11:31:36 AM  

Bloody William: Bullseyed: So Egypt doesn't exist? They never enslaved the Hebrew people? The Babylonian Empire never existed? Etc, etc.

Someone should inform the makers of all this history text books.

Gone With The Wind was a book of fiction but the Civil War still happened. Braveheart was fiction but the Scottish uprising against England still happened. The Passion of the Christ was fiction but... well, no, still fiction.


So you're saying the Gone with the Wind and Bravehart are fictional stories based on extrapolations of historical events. ie.) Not 100% fiction.
 
2012-01-19 11:32:21 AM  


I was unaware that the establishment clause said freedom of religion when it is convenient.


That is because you don't know what strict scrutiny means.

Keep going though this is delightful. It's like watching a monkey fark a football
 
2012-01-19 11:33:49 AM  

The Homer Tax: Bullseyed: So did the student go to the office to pick one up or was he given one?

He went to the office to go pick one up, but when he got there instead of the child picking the book up himself, a teacher gave it to him. Are you even trying here?

Either way, the distribution method is imamterial, which is why you're so bent on derailing the conversation in that direction. The issue is that the same treatment was denied to other religious texts, and is therefore illegal.


Nope. The treatment was denied to all religions including Christianity. The policy was suspended for review by the lawyers.

If I hold a sale at my store and everyone who buys the product on sale is of one religion and someone of another religion tries to buy the product after the sale is over, it is not discrimination. They missed the sale. So sad, too bad.
 
2012-01-19 11:33:51 AM  

Bullseyed: So you're saying the Gone with the Wind and Bravehart are fictional stories based on extrapolations of historical events. ie.) Not 100% fiction.


Um... yes. 100% fiction. Historical fiction is 100% fiction. It is not an account of history. It is fiction. It is made up. It might be based on things that happened in history, but it is not something with any academic worth outside of sociological and getting a unique perspective on events with the knowledge that you're seeing them through the lens of literature and not history.

If I say Abraham Lincoln said to Ulysses S. Grant that he was a magnificent bastard and he read his book, that would be a 100% fictional account, even though both people existed.
 
2012-01-19 11:34:24 AM  
Bullseyed: You can't allow people to make up their own religions and be afforded the same benefits as real religions.

Psst... All religions are made up.
 
2012-01-19 11:35:36 AM  

enry: skammie: You guys do know that Wicca came about in the 1950s, right? It's about as ancient as Dick Clark.

Yeah, about that (new window)


this is funnier (new window)
 
2012-01-19 11:36:22 AM  

Bullseyed: Bloody William: Bullseyed: So Egypt doesn't exist? They never enslaved the Hebrew people? The Babylonian Empire never existed? Etc, etc.

Someone should inform the makers of all this history text books.

Gone With The Wind was a book of fiction but the Civil War still happened. Braveheart was fiction but the Scottish uprising against England still happened. The Passion of the Christ was fiction but... well, no, still fiction.

So you're saying the Gone with the Wind and Bravehart are fictional stories based on extrapolations of historical events. ie.) Not 100% fiction.


If I wrote a story about a dog and the young invisible martian who befriended him, would you consider it nonfiction because there is such a thing as a dog?
 
2012-01-19 11:36:31 AM  

treesloth: I May Be Crazy But...: What's wrong with a Christian being a biologist? Unless you think Christianity and curiosity are mutually exclusive, that is. Most of the scientific advances since the renaissance in Europe were done by Christians (of one flavor or another) investigating God's Universe. The idea that you can't ask questions isn't all that common among the religious, only the ones who think everything in the bible is literally true as written, in my experience.

Yep, pretty much. My bishop is a professor and Ph.D geneticist. Another bishop I know did research supporting genetic links to homosexuality, and there wasn't even a decent lynching when he published! wtf? I was looking forward to that...

Context: these are LDS bishops, not Catholic. They are unpaid clergy that lead a single local congregation and are usually chosen from among the congregation they live in.


Thanks for sharing a story involving moderate, thinking people. It's the sort of thing we need more of in both atheists and the religious.
 
2012-01-19 11:36:42 AM  

Cheesus: Bullseyed: Farking Canuck: Bullseyed: The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

And when someone wanted to make a non-christian text 'available for pick-up' they changed the rules.

This shows that their policy to allow any donated books was a sham ... they only ever intended to allow christian books to be 'picked up' which is explicit endorsement of a single religion by a government facility. Which is against the law.

Your 'but-but-but it was only allowed for pick-up' excuse is as pathetic as the people who claimed they would allow any religious book but turned out to be liars.

Troll harder. There is nothing in the article to state that this was another religion book. It says it was "her spell book". For all we know this particular woman was the author. People immediately tried to leap to the book of wicca or the necronomicon, but if it was those books the article would have said it.

You can't allow people to make up their own religions and be afforded the same benefits as real religions.


How come no one complains when 6th and 7th graders read the Illiad and the Odyssey for history class? Greek and Roman mythology is paganism, but I don't see the atheists complaining.

We don't. We also don't complain when excerpts from the Bible are used in History, English, etc. Greek/Roman mythology is important to our culture. So is the Bible. These things are an important part of our history and culture that should be studied in school. The problem we have is wanting to teach the Bible as truth, and to bring God into the science curriculum. Or, as in this case, the school/government clearly favoring one religion over the other instead of giving all faiths equal treatment.


I had to read the Odyssey as part of history class when I was in school. That is comparable to using the Bible in science class.
 
2012-01-19 11:37:53 AM  

Inflatable Rhetoric: Whenever I find a bible in a hotel room, I write in it.

Once I found one with a hole cavity in the pages and a condom in the space. More useful and beneficial than god(s).


Whoa, you are really showing the next people in the room that you are a take charge type of guy who is not at all so impressed with himself that he proudly posts his juvenile antics on the internet.

When I find a bible in a hotel room, I just ignore it. Of course, I'm not a douche nor the type of guy who uses condoms that other people leave in a hotel room.
 
2012-01-19 11:39:09 AM  
Most dont seem to get the point. 1 day or 2, 000 years old.
If you allow one religion you must allow them all.

Still religion in school? Unless its a religious school, keep it out.
 
2012-01-19 11:39:43 AM  

Bullseyed: If there is no process for validating a religion, then one can make up whatever religion they so choose.


They have and they do ... where do you think your religion came from??
 
2012-01-19 11:39:43 AM  

Civil Discourse: Bullseyed: abb3w: Bullseyed: The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

...apparently allowing a release from normal instructional time to do so. And, yes, reportedly at least one teacher (an agent of the school) handed at least one Bible to one student who went to the main office to pick one up.

So did the student go to the office to pick one up or was he given one?

You can't even keep the story straight in a few sentences...

Whether a student went to go pick up a bible is totally irrelevant. The issue is that one religious group was allowed to have its book available and the other was not. How, or whether, it was actually disseminated amongst the student body would be irrelevant to a court on this particular issue.


The actual circumstance is that all religions were able to distribute and one religion took advantage, then the policy was suspended and now no religions, Christianity included, are allowed to take advantage.

Note that the woman complained first, which causes a suspension of the policy, then tried to distribute once the policy had been suspended.
 
2012-01-19 11:40:29 AM  

The Homer Tax: ExperianScaresCthulhu: Yes, unlike that very old, very well studied text the bible. The bible has the power of age behind it, and a living line of oral and written traditions which have sprouted up around it dating back thousand of years.

I don't get to demand that my handwritten thoughts on the Church of St. Philip Neri in Old Town get the same treatment as one published by a professor of UNM through the university's publishing arm. I don't get to demand those thoughts be placed in a school as an alternative, just because I disagree with the conclusions of the professor at UNM whose book is being offered.

You're making a false analogy. The Bibles in question aren't being used as part of any sort of educational study. They are being offered as religious promotion only. Bibles are studied in public schools all the time as part of english, history, and compartiive religion classes, to name a few. No sane person has a problem with that.

the issue with this school is that the bibles are not being used for educations l purposes, but for religious promotion. When that happens, you're not allowed to promote one religion over others. This is very basic Constitutioanl stuff here, it's not that difficult.


And you know this because you are a student at the school?
 
2012-01-19 11:40:55 AM  

Bullseyed: You can't allow people to make up their own religions and be afforded the same benefits as real religions.


As an adherant of Mithraism, I'm glad to hear you say that. Those johnny-come-lately "Christians" who have attempted to co-opt my faith, stealing our initiation rituals (baptism), holy day - festival of natalis Invicti (on December 25th), etc.


I'm sure that the followers of Ahura Mazda are just as upset over the Christian theft of the seven deadly sins, and the Christians presenting them as "something we came up with that our God is particuarly upset over".



Obviously, those rotten Christians shouldn't be allowed to just make these things up, and claim benefits.
 
2012-01-19 11:41:22 AM  

Bullseyed: She specifically identifies as a witch rather than a wiccan, and is trying to distribute her own pagan spell book rather than the book of wicca.


So you're just going to completely ignore the other article (posted twice) that states that it was a informational book on the wiccan religion??
 
2012-01-19 11:41:38 AM  

Bullseyed: Cheesus: Bullseyed: Farking Canuck: Bullseyed: The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

And when someone wanted to make a non-christian text 'available for pick-up' they changed the rules.

This shows that their policy to allow any donated books was a sham ... they only ever intended to allow christian books to be 'picked up' which is explicit endorsement of a single religion by a government facility. Which is against the law.

Your 'but-but-but it was only allowed for pick-up' excuse is as pathetic as the people who claimed they would allow any religious book but turned out to be liars.

Troll harder. There is nothing in the article to state that this was another religion book. It says it was "her spell book". For all we know this particular woman was the author. People immediately tried to leap to the book of wicca or the necronomicon, but if it was those books the article would have said it.

You can't allow people to make up their own religions and be afforded the same benefits as real religions.


How come no one complains when 6th and 7th graders read the Illiad and the Odyssey for history class? Greek and Roman mythology is paganism, but I don't see the atheists complaining.

We don't. We also don't complain when excerpts from the Bible are used in History, English, etc. Greek/Roman mythology is important to our culture. So is the Bible. These things are an important part of our history and culture that should be studied in school. The problem we have is wanting to teach the Bible as truth, and to bring God into the science curriculum. Or, as in this case, the school/government clearly favoring one religion over the other instead of giving all faiths equal treatment.

I had to read the Odyssey as part of history class when I was in school. That is comparable to using the Bible in science class.


Not sure if trolling or just stupid.

The Odyssey and Greek/Roman/Egyptian/etc. Mythology is part of our history and should be studied in a historical context. So is the Bible.

However, having 'God did it' is not acceptable in science class.
 
2012-01-19 11:42:26 AM  

halfof33: Inflatable Rhetoric: Whenever I find a bible in a hotel room, I write in it.

Once I found one with a hole cavity in the pages and a condom in the space. More useful and beneficial than god(s).

Whoa, you are really showing the next people in the room that you are a take charge type of guy who is not at all so impressed with himself that he proudly posts his juvenile antics on the internet.

When I find a bible in a hotel room, I just ignore it. Of course, I'm not a douche nor the type of guy who uses condoms that other people leave in a hotel room.


I usually read it. I get bored in hotel rooms.

The bible. I read the bible. I don't think I'd touch a condom I found in a hotel room.
 
2012-01-19 11:43:53 AM  

Bullseyed: Nope. The treatment was denied to all religions including Christianity. The policy was suspended for review by the lawyers.

If I hold a sale at my store and everyone who buys the product on sale is of one religion and someone of another religion tries to buy the product after the sale is over, it is not discrimination. They missed the sale. So sad, too bad.


The treatment was originally granted to the people wishing to distribute Christian religious material. The policy was suspended when someone wanted to distribute religious material pertaining to a different religion.

In your analogy it would actaully be like if you held a sale and continued to hold said sale as long as only white people were buying things, but when a black person came to the counter you said "sorry, sale's over" and ended the sale for everyone.
 
2012-01-19 11:45:10 AM  

Callous: The Homer Tax: Bullseyed: So did the student go to the office to pick one up or was he given one?

He went to the office to go pick one up, but when he got there instead of the child picking the book up himself, a teacher gave it to him. Are you even trying here?

Are you seriously splitting that hair?


The difference between a prostitute offering sex and a person requesting sex from a prostitute is pretty large.

I don't see why this is any different. If I say "hey I have Bibles if anyone wants one" that is entirely different than if I say "here take this Bible".

I'm sorry that most posters here lack the linguistic knowledge to differentiate between the two.
 
2012-01-19 11:46:38 AM  
Hotel room bibles are awesome, they usually have all kinds of crazy stuff written under the cover or in the margins.
 
2012-01-19 11:47:22 AM  

The Homer Tax: ExperianScaresCthulhu: Is there an alternative news link to this story which states that, that she gave out books explaining Pagan faith?

NC mom can't donate pagan books to son's school

Technically the only people who have referred to them as "spell books" are the Fox article's author and Subby.


That article also falsely states that they turned away her donation under the policy when in fact the entire policy was suspended when she complained, prior to attempting to donate.
 
2012-01-19 11:47:40 AM  

Jake Havechek: No, you can't do that.

Of course the poor poor oppressed Christians will kick a fit, but fark 'em.


And since this is Fark, the entire last half of the article is Christians whining about how non-Christian reading material is so much easier to find everywhere else, wah wah wah.

They could easily take that energy and use it to hold their higher-ups accountable for all the child molester hiding they've been doing, maybe take the slightest effort to make themselves at least look like they're not obviously part of the same group with the same values.
 
2012-01-19 11:49:26 AM  

The Homer Tax: Callous: Are you seriously splitting that hair?

I'm not, Bullseyed is. I have stated over and over against that method of disemination is immaterial to the discussion.


Yes, The Homer Tax believes that there is no difference between soliciting sex from a prostitute and the prostitute offering sex to you.

I'm sure everyone here will enjoy the analogy of offering Bibles to prostitutes and sex.
 
2012-01-19 11:49:55 AM  

halfof33: Inflatable Rhetoric: Whenever I find a bible in a hotel room, I write in it.

Once I found one with a hole cavity in the pages and a condom in the space. More useful and beneficial than god(s).

Whoa, you are really showing the next people in the room that you are a take charge type of guy who is not at all so impressed with himself that he proudly posts his juvenile antics on the internet.

When I find a bible in a hotel room, I just ignore it. Of course, I'm not a douche nor the type of guy who uses condoms that other people leave in a hotel room.


You failed to consider what I write.

And I didn't use the condom. Try to pay attention.
 
2012-01-19 11:50:28 AM  

I'm sorry that most posters here lack the linguistic knowledge to differentiate between the two.


You know when absolutely everyone is telling you the same thing and you continually state the opposite there are two possible explanations.

1) You are a brave and noble soul driven by your deep sense of intellectual integrity to seek the truth no matter the cost - Galileo-like you boldly defy the status quo and in doing so usher in a new era of human understanding.

2) You're a twat.
 
2012-01-19 11:50:54 AM  

Bullseyed: The actual circumstance is that all religions were able to distribute and one religion took advantage, then the policy was suspended and now no religions, Christianity included, are allowed to take advantage.

Note that the woman complained first, which causes a suspension of the policy, then tried to distribute once the policy had been suspended.


This is not true as per the very article that you chastised others for not reading and/or interpreting correctly.

TFA: "According to Strivelli, the principal assured her the school would make available religious texts donated by any group. But when Strivelli showed up at the school with pagan spell books, she was turned away."

Bullseyed: And you know this because you are a student at the school?


No, I know this because the bibles were available for pickup in the office on a voluntary basis. Remember that completely meaningless point you kept stressing over and over again earlier in the thread?
 
2012-01-19 11:51:45 AM  

Bloody William: Bullseyed: It doesn't work because they aren't powerful enough! To get more powerful they must kill deer and dance naked in the woods and have sex with their wizard leader.

That's actually kind of offensive.

/FARK!
//Also, any pagan church can be recognized as a 501(c)(3) tax exempt organization just like any Christian church, as long as it meets the same requirements. And those requirements aren't "popularity."

Actually, no slashies. Here are the requirements any pagan church can meet:

the organization must be organized and operated
exclusively for religious, educational, scientific, or other
charitable purposes,
■ net earnings may not inure to the benefit of any
private individual or shareholder,
■ no substantial part of its activity may be attempting
to influence legislation,
■ the organization may not intervene in political
campaigns, and
■ the organization's purposes and activities may not
be illegal or violate fundamental public policy


Yeah. Offensive speech is still free, for now anyway.

Since the principle purpose of this woman's religion appears to be attempting to influence legislation, it would fail this test.
 
2012-01-19 11:52:18 AM  

mithras_angel: As an adherant of Mithraism, I'm glad to hear you say that. Those johnny-come-lately "Christians" who have attempted to co-opt my faith, stealing our initiation rituals (baptism), holy day - festival of natalis Invicti (on December 25th), etc.

Obviously, those rotten Christians shouldn't be allowed to just make these things up, and claim benefits.


Around Christmas I was bored and after this claim had been made about 47 times in one thread, I went looking for the Catholics position on this.

Basically it is: Yeah we did that, You Mad?
 
2012-01-19 11:53:44 AM  

Bloody William: Bullseyed:

Also, I noticed you haven't responded to the Lemon Test standards for religious endorsement. Or really anything else substantive. Are you a troll?


Because no one has defeated the details of the situation argument yet. I'm not going to worry about the murder weapon until someone has a dead body.
 
2012-01-19 11:54:21 AM  

Bullseyed: Yeah. Offensive speech is still free, for now anyway.


I'm not saying you should be censored. Just that you're being a twat.

Since the principle purpose of this woman's religion appears to be attempting to influence legislation, it would fail this test.

No.

Also, you mean principal.
 
2012-01-19 11:54:28 AM  

Tapakip: Auggie: Tapakip: [a57.foxnews.com image 396x223]

I'd hit it. The one on the right, of course.

/foxnews has the image labeled as TheCraft1, real nice

Granted Fox News is known for their affronts and such, but the book on the bench is called 'The Craft'

Good catch. My eyes were too busy looking at other things.


Like the woman's presumably underage daughter?

/well it is Fark I guess.
 
2012-01-19 11:55:33 AM  

Bullseyed: That article also falsely states that they turned away her donation under the policy when in fact the entire policy was suspended when she complained, prior to attempting to donate.


The word "complain" is no where in TFA. You have completely invented this timeline. You are lying. Bearing False witness is a sin.

Bullseyed: Yes, The Homer Tax believes that there is no difference between soliciting sex from a prostitute and the prostitute offering sex to you.


300 posts into this thread and I'm astounded as to the fact that you don't grasp why the distribution method is immaterial. It has been explained to you over and over again. You are literally arguing about somethign that no one is actually disagreeing with you about.
 
2012-01-19 11:55:51 AM  

Bullseyed: Yeah. Offensive speech is still free, for now anyway.

Since the principle purpose of this woman's religion appears to be attempting to influence legislation, it would fail this test.


You know what her beliefs are? You've spoken to her on the subject, then. Or maybe read an interview. Or a biography.

All you know is that she has beliefs and she thinks they are not being accorded the same respect as a Christian's beliefs by a government entity. And that it bothers her enough to kick up a fuss.
 
2012-01-19 11:57:24 AM  

I May Be Crazy But...: All you know is that she has beliefs and she thinks they are not being accorded the same respect as a Christian's beliefs by a government entity. And that it bothers her enough to kick up a fuss.


And it fails the Lemon Test, both advocating one religion while inhibiting another under the same standards.
 
2012-01-19 11:57:24 AM  

Bullseyed: Bloody William: Bullseyed:

Also, I noticed you haven't responded to the Lemon Test standards for religious endorsement. Or really anything else substantive. Are you a troll?

Because no one has defeated the details of the situation argument yet. I'm not going to worry about the murder weapon until someone has a dead body.



Courts have rulesd that "making available" even if only providing space and/or time can count as an endorsement. Especially when that space and/or time isn't made to other groups.


After I get out of "meeting hell", I'll try to remember to look up some citations on this.
 
2012-01-19 11:57:29 AM  

Leeds: Some of the wonderfully colorful phrases from that hate-filled snuff book:

Zechariah 13:3 - If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.

Nahum 1:2-8 - The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night.

1 Kings 20:35-36 - Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 - If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Etc, etc.


Two of those four are the Hebrew Bible not the Christian Bible, FYI.
 
2012-01-19 11:58:10 AM  

mithras_angel: After I get out of "meeting hell", I'll try to remember to look up some citations on this.


Lemon v. Kurtzman. Lee v. Weisman. Lynch v. Donnelly.

Good starts.
 
2012-01-19 11:58:30 AM  

Inflatable Rhetoric: You failed to consider what I write.

And I didn't use the condom. Try to pay attention.


I failed to consider what you wrote? I'm sorry, were you doing something other than bragging about writing in a book? Say, maybe the next time you can build a little bonfire of Bibles in the parking lot!
 
2012-01-19 11:59:22 AM  

halfof33: mithras_angel: As an adherant of Mithraism, I'm glad to hear you say that. Those johnny-come-lately "Christians" who have attempted to co-opt my faith, stealing our initiation rituals (baptism), holy day - festival of natalis Invicti (on December 25th), etc.

Obviously, those rotten Christians shouldn't be allowed to just make these things up, and claim benefits.

Around Christmas I was bored and after this claim had been made about 47 times in one thread, I went looking for the Catholics position on this.

Basically it is: Yeah we did that, You Mad?


Ha! That's pretty funny. Do you happen to have a link to any of the information still?
 
2012-01-19 12:00:03 PM  

Bullseyed: You can't allow people to make up their own religions and be afforded the same benefits as real religions


This statement is so dense with unintentional irony it's at risk for becoming some kind of unintentional irony singularity, collapsing in on itself and consuming all sense and reason, and then exploding, destroying the entire solar system in a dazzling spectacle of irony, as thousands of years later in another part of the galaxy, an alien will be looking up at the stars with his son, point right at us and go 'See that star, son? It's been there for billions of years, and it will be there for billions more' just as it disappears.

Background irony will remain at trace levels for thousands of years. Scientists in other parts of the universe will measure it, and think to themselves 'I wonder what happened there. I bet it was pretty ironic.'
 
2012-01-19 12:01:35 PM  

Bullseyed: Leeds: Some of the wonderfully colorful phrases from that hate-filled snuff book:

Zechariah 13:3 - If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.

Nahum 1:2-8 - The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night.

1 Kings 20:35-36 - Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 - If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Etc, etc.

Two of those four are the Hebrew Bible not the Christian Bible, FYI.


All 4 are in the King James bible. FYI
 
2012-01-19 12:01:48 PM  

Callous: AngryPanda: Callous: AngryPanda: Bullseyed: The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.

"Schools should not be giving out one religion's materials and not others," Strivelli said.


The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

Is the school giving out children when they allow parents to pick their kids up?

How's this for a compromise? A public school shouldn't be offering religious texts at all.

When did complete prohibition become compromise? Do you really think that ignorance is the correct solution? If a debate between vegetarian meals and meat included meals comes up do you think that making the kids go hungry is the right coarse of action so as not to offend anyone?

Freedom of religion was not a prescription for ignorance.

How about schools don't hand out religious texts that don't pertain to a lesson?

Religion is very significant in this world, like it or not. Kids do need to be taught about, at least, the major ones because they are going to encounter them in life. It's just the way it is. Either we are educating them to be able to function effectively in this world or we are trying to indoctrinate them giving less regard for their future success than our own personal agendas.

If they imply preference for one religion, there is no equal education of religion. Don't offer any of the books if you won't offer all of them.

There can't be equal education for religion. There are too damn many of them for them to all be covered effectively. And to demand ignorance in the face of that fact is ridiculous.


So you choose an authoritative text like Smith's The World's Religions and do your best. For a student who wants to learn making the information available and getting them started is enough, for a student who isn't interested no amount of cajoling will make them learn a whit of it.
 
2012-01-19 12:01:57 PM  

Leeds: Bullseyed: Any religion that isn't Jewish/Christian/Muslim is pagan/heathen. Especially so if they are polytheistic.

Fail.

Christianity is polytheistic (they worship 3 gods). And most of Christianity has devolved into blatant idol worship anyway (crosses, magical beads, etc).


False.

Monotheism (from Greek μόνος, monos, "single", and θεός, theos, "god") is the belief in the existence of one god or in the oneness of God. Monotheism is traditionally characteristic of Judaism, Christianity, Islam; while also being a recognizable component of numerous other religions.


But I'm sure everyone else in the world is wrong and you have secret knowledge revealed to you from a higher power.
 
2012-01-19 12:03:56 PM  
But I'm sure everyone else in the world is wrong and you have secret knowledge revealed to you from a higher power.

You do realise that your claim here in this very thread is that everyone else is wrong and you alone are right?

I could watch this shiat all day. It's the intellectual equivalent of a donkey show.
 
2012-01-19 12:04:11 PM  
"Our country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, not on Wiccan principles," Bobby Honeycutt, who attended public schools in Weaverville during the 1970s, said.

It still amazes me how these people portend that this obviously false statement is somehow factual. It's as if they think the rule of law did not exist prior to Abraham.
 
2012-01-19 12:04:55 PM  

Civil Discourse: Bullseyed: Tigger: Problem: you didn't read the article. They were not passed out. Essentially they were left on the floor in a box in the hallway. A couple of kids took them home of their own free will and free choice.

Problem: You don't understand the issue.

You'll probably keep bashing away at it though but here's what you're missing.

The distinction between whether they were passed out or put in a box is irrelevant. It doesn't matter. You keep drawing that distinction and it keeps being a total non-issue.

The issue is that books of type 1 were allowed to be left on the floor in a box in the hallway and books of type 2 were potentially not allowed to be left on the floor in a box in the hallway.

There is no indication that type 2 is a recognized mainstream religion. Again, my religion is pornologism, can I go hand out naked pictures to kids?

I'm sure if it was Muslim/Jewish/Buddhist/Hinduist texts there would be far less of an issue.

Your question here has already been answered. No, you could not hand out pornography to children, even if it were part of your religious beliefs. Where the gov't has a compelling interest it may curtail fundamental rights and deny equal protections. It could be reasonably argued that preventing the distribution of pornography to minors is a compelling interest of the gov't. In fact, the gov't has curtailed this right by making illegal the distribution of pornography to minors. Your position on this matter would hold if the contents of the 'spell-book' were similarly illegal.


I know. That was my point. It is easier to teach someone if you let them come upon it than if I said outright "the government decides what is or isn't a religion". If I had said that, you'd disagree, but since you said it, I can concede that you are correct while at the same time proving my point.
 
2012-01-19 12:05:40 PM  

halfof33: Inflatable Rhetoric: You failed to consider what I write.

And I didn't use the condom. Try to pay attention.

I failed to consider what you wrote? I'm sorry, were you doing something other than bragging about writing in a book? Say, maybe the next time you can build a little bonfire of Bibles in the parking lot!


I've never found enough bibles in a room to make a bonfire. There's only one in my experience.

Was I bragging? I didn't notice that. I merely meant to give anyone who might look at the bible some insight, an alternative viewpoint.

Why do you have a problem with this?
 
2012-01-19 12:06:51 PM  

Bullseyed: Civil Discourse: Bullseyed: Cheesus: Bullseyed: The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.

"Schools should not be giving out one religion's materials and not others," Strivelli said.


The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

Is the school giving out children when they allow parents to pick their kids up?

Personally I don't have much problem with that. What I do have a problem with is them excluding other religions that want their materials given the same treatment. They cannot do that.

My religion is call pornologism. Can I now give out playboys at the local school?

No. Your rights can be curtailed by the government, and they must have a compelling reason to do so. You may disagree with it personally, but a court is incredibly likely to find that preventing the distribution of pornography to minors is a compelling interest of the state. In fact, it's already against the law.

I was unaware that the establishment clause said freedom of religion when it is convenient.

However, you did manage to go and prove my point for me. The government has precedent in deciding whether a religion is valid or not. Ergo the school may also exercise such decision making as an agent of the government.

Game. Set. Match.


Listen, I really not trying to be a snarky dick, but you do not seem to understand how equal protection works, and you have misconstrued the issues pertinent to its proper analysis. I'm only writing this because I think it is important that people understand how our legal system works, and the limits and extent of government power. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, nor am I actually taking a stance on the issue. I am telling you how the system works, whether you agree with it or not is a question of public policy.

The question is not about the validity of the religion as an actual belief. There is a presumption that people are free to exercise their religion whatever that may be- the government has no role in deciding what is and is not a valid religion. There is precedent that the gov't may discriminate against or curtail religious freedoms, but it must have a compelling interest* for doing so- the decision to discriminate against or deprive may not be arbitrary, and more than merely legitimate- it must be based on a compelling interest. This standard is not so low as convenience. So, to use some examples from up thread:

1) The government has a compelling interest in preventing tax fraud, so it has certain requirements that religious organization must meet in order to qualify for tax exempt status. This is discriminatory because not all religions will qualify, but it is OK because if anyone could claim tax exemptions based on religion everyone would do it and our system would collapse. This is does not function as a method of validation, it functions as a method of mitigating tax fraud.

2) The government has a compelling interest in preventing the distribution of pornography to children, so there is a law that makes doing so illegal. This is a deprivation of a right, but it is OK because, as a society, we have decided that pornography is so harmful to the development of children, that the harm to society outweighs the benefits of allowing such conduct (or conversely that the harm of infringing on a fundamental right is outweighed by the benefit of not having children potentially harmed by pornography).

3) In this case, the government does not seem to have a compelling interest in allowing one religious text over the other, therefore it may not discriminate against any given religion. Maybe there is something in the text that the gov't has a compelling interest in preventing from being disseminated. I don't know.

I'm not sure what else to tell you if this doesn't make any sense to you.
 
2012-01-19 12:07:40 PM  

Bloody William: Bullseyed: From the article, direct quote:

From another article on the exact same thing, actually directly reporting it as a regional publication and not national news:

Ginger Strivelli's fifth-grade son last month brought home a Bible given away at North Windy Ridge school, but when she offered free copies of books explaining her pagan faith on Wednesday she was told administrators were not accepting any religious materials while they review current policies.


It is copy pasta of an Associated Press article, not exactly local reporting.

Anyways, she whined, the school admitted she may have a point and suspended the policy. Once the policy was suspended (like she asked) she then tried to use the policy and whined to the media when the school said "derp we suspended that policy like you asked".

Maybe her spells are powered by the attention daddy never gave her.
 
2012-01-19 12:08:29 PM  

Bullseyed: Bloody William: Bullseyed: So Egypt doesn't exist? They never enslaved the Hebrew people? The Babylonian Empire never existed? Etc, etc.

Someone should inform the makers of all this history text books.

Gone With The Wind was a book of fiction but the Civil War still happened. Braveheart was fiction but the Scottish uprising against England still happened. The Passion of the Christ was fiction but... well, no, still fiction.

So you're saying the Gone with the Wind and Bravehart are fictional stories based on extrapolations of historical events. ie.) Not 100% fiction.


The problem with most works based on true events is that you as the reader/viewer don't know where the truth ends and the fiction/dramatization begins.

Jesus Christ and William Wallace were in fact real people. Some of the major events in their lives are known, some liberties have been taken with the details by many as there aren't a lot of factual details available.

The difference is did the creator of said work try to be as historically accurate as they could. Did they look at the practices and customs common at the time and fill in the blanks with what is likely to have occurred or did they just make it up to sound good or exciting.
 
2012-01-19 12:09:36 PM  

Farking Canuck: Sure but the knee-jerk reaction makes it pretty clear that the wiccan book was never going to be allowed for pick-up.


He may well have asked the lawyers how it could be prevented, leading to a "You did WHAT‽‽‽" conversation immediately before the hypothetical "you IDIOT" warning.

I'll grant, it seems less likely he intended to allow it than prevent it; and even if the principal had, that it's coming up at a local school board meeting suggests it would merely have triggered a different type of outrage.

DarkVader: No, the xian bible should NEVER be used in public schools


Sorry, I'd disagree. The themes have been a major influence on western literature, and really does need to be part of English classes at the high school level -- treated as literature.

Bullseyed: Don't you have to establish a not-for-profit, a place of worship, a roster of followers and a bunch of other stuff to be declared a religion in terms of tax purposes?


Actually, no. Churches and the like get it automatically; see IRS publication 1828. That stuff just makes the argument shorter in the event of an audit.

Bullseyed: Essentially they were left on the floor in a box in the hallway.


Again: no. See details in the previously linked article.

Bullseyed: So did the student go to the office to pick one up or was he given one?


Gee, you don't suppose there might have been a teacher in the main office who handed it to him?

ExperianScaresCthulhu: Anyway, she handed out a fricking spellbook. A spellbook is not a holy book


The distinction is actually a bit fuzzy, depending on the strain of Wicca. I'm not aware of the actual book title(s) in question, so it's hard to say where they might have fallen on the spectrum.

Magorn: There is a reason that, of the 3 or 4 dozen Pagans i know personally, about 90% are ex-Catholics


Most pagans are (de)converts from something else. Catholics are the largest single denomination in the US; ergo, it's not surprising a lot of Pagans are ex-Catholic. Beyond that, the significant ritual elements may also appeal... and your personal acquaintance non-representative sample, and inexactly perceived, to boot.
 
2012-01-19 12:11:00 PM  

Farking Canuck: Bullseyed: From the article, direct quote:

"According to Strivelli, the principal assured her the school would make available religious texts donated by any group. But when Strivelli showed up at the school with pagan spell books, she was turned away."

Yes child ... and from a different article (new window), she offered "free copies of books explaining her pagan faith".

You just latch on to stupidity don't you? First it was the completely irrelevant "they were just left to be picked up" and now it is the idiotic "her's was a spell book which doesn't count". Your magic book is OK but her magic book doesn't qualify?? Moran.


Is that the Canadian spelling? Over here well spell it with an oh instead of the eh.

Why is a "Farking Canuck" trolling American legal issues anyway? The USA isn't a good backup plan for when Canada's socialist policies collapse.

Go entertain yourself with this:
http://tsn.ca/nhl/
 
2012-01-19 12:11:02 PM  
While I wouldn't be agaisnt some sort of well researched "religions around the world" class being taught in high school (theortically....in real life it would be taught by one moron or another who would ruin the whole point). Leave the religous books at home. Unless you wanted to have a small library section with all of it.

That being said? Wiccans are the only religious people that I can't seem to get along with (well scientologists too, but i've never met one irl). I have jewish friends, muslim friends, atheist friends. One...sort of pagan anthropology major friend...but every Wiccan i've ever met (admittedly only three) has tried to start crap with me.

1. Wiccan number 1: Thought excessive "Charmed" viewership and a moleskin notebook full of poem/spells qualified her as a wiccan. I think she had a crush on me and was pissed that I politely didn't reciprocate. She stole my planner (school provided scheduling thing) and when I got it back it was covered in threatening messages and things like "Now I know where you live"! (you were encouraged to put your address in it.

2. Wiccan number 2: High school speech class. She sits down to me (who is trying to sleep, like in every class) and the conversation goes exactly thus "You're that mormon kid right?" "You know that jesus thing is a bunch of shiat right?" "Mmhmm...good night."

3.Wiccan number 3: tried to get my favorite teacher fired for showing "The crucible" in class.
 
2012-01-19 12:11:35 PM  

Bullseyed: Civil Discourse: Bullseyed: Tigger: Problem: you didn't read the article. They were not passed out. Essentially they were left on the floor in a box in the hallway. A couple of kids took them home of their own free will and free choice.

Problem: You don't understand the issue.

You'll probably keep bashing away at it though but here's what you're missing.

The distinction between whether they were passed out or put in a box is irrelevant. It doesn't matter. You keep drawing that distinction and it keeps being a total non-issue.

The issue is that books of type 1 were allowed to be left on the floor in a box in the hallway and books of type 2 were potentially not allowed to be left on the floor in a box in the hallway.

There is no indication that type 2 is a recognized mainstream religion. Again, my religion is pornologism, can I go hand out naked pictures to kids?

I'm sure if it was Muslim/Jewish/Buddhist/Hinduist texts there would be far less of an issue.

Your question here has already been answered. No, you could not hand out pornography to children, even if it were part of your religious beliefs. Where the gov't has a compelling interest it may curtail fundamental rights and deny equal protections. It could be reasonably argued that preventing the distribution of pornography to minors is a compelling interest of the gov't. In fact, the gov't has curtailed this right by making illegal the distribution of pornography to minors. Your position on this matter would hold if the contents of the 'spell-book' were similarly illegal.

I know. That was my point. It is easier to teach someone if you let them come upon it than if I said outright "the government decides what is or isn't a religion". If I had said that, you'd disagree, but since you said it, I can concede that you are correct while at the same time proving my point.


Proven what point? Your religion is as valid as any other religion. The law has nothing to do with your religious status. You would be committing a crime. Your religion doesn't make you immune to the laws of the land.
 
2012-01-19 12:12:53 PM  
Bullseyed Two of those four are the Hebrew Bible not the Christian Bible, FYI.

Fail, utter and complete.

The four listed are all Old Testament, listed in the King James Bible - not 2 in one 2 in another. Moreover, for a Christian, the "Hebrew Bible" is half the Bible. Christians believe it as much as the New Testament, yet they give more weight to the latter teachings (supposedly). Hence the ghey hate and Biblical living pablum.

http://www.christnotes.org/bible.php?ver=niv
 
2012-01-19 12:12:59 PM  

Bullseyed: Farking Canuck: Bullseyed: How is a spellbook comparable to a book of stories to begin with?

They are both 100% fiction used to fleece money out of gullible people.

/you asked

So Egypt doesn't exist? They never enslaved the Hebrew people? The Babylonian Empire never existed? Etc, etc.

Someone should inform the makers of all this history text books.


You're dumb, and there's no hope for you. Does the existence of insane asylums make One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest non-fiction?
 
2012-01-19 12:13:12 PM  

Bloody William: Bullseyed: Except it isn't a real religion, just like how this woman's "spell books" aren't real religion either.

Still not gonna respond to the whole 501(c)(3) standards for church status thing?


Protip: when I am responding to a post that is before yours, I probably haven't gotten to it yet.

I'll get to it when you've responded to all of my posts. /rolleyes
 
2012-01-19 12:13:17 PM  

Bullseyed: Again, my religion is pornologism, can I go hand out naked pictures to kids?


My religion involves human sacrifice. Can I rip out my neighbor's heart and eat it raw? (According to my religion, refusing to volunteer to be a sacrifice is a crime, and the punishment is death, so it's not murder) Of course I can't. Other people here can probably put it in fancier words than I can, but you don't get to inflict your religion on others in a way that is harmful to them.

I include the last to stop anyone who wants to include people proselytizing in what I'm talking about.
 
2012-01-19 12:13:34 PM  

The Homer Tax: Bullseyed: That article also falsely states that they turned away her donation under the policy when in fact the entire policy was suspended when she complained, prior to attempting to donate.

The word "complain" is no where in TFA. You have completely invented this timeline. You are lying. Bearing False witness is a sin.


I LOLed a little at that.
 
2012-01-19 12:14:23 PM  

Leeds: Bullseyed: Except it isn't a real religion, just like how this woman's these Gideon's "spell books" aren't real religion either.

FTFY


The Bible does not contain magical spells. When you find the Bible verse that explains how to make a love potion or shoot lightning from my hands let me know.
 
2012-01-19 12:15:41 PM  

I May Be Crazy But...: part of the problem: (And before anyone flames the Christian biologist reference, dude has done more to save the Smokies than your Chris Hitchens reading group so put a cork in it.)

What's wrong with a Christian being a biologist? Unless you think Christianity and curiosity are mutually exclusive, that is. Most of the scientific advances since the renaissance in Europe were done by Christians (of one flavor or another) investigating God's Universe. The idea that you can't ask questions isn't all that common among the religious, only the ones who think everything in the bible is literally true as written, in my experience.


Thank you. You must be the other civil person on fark.
 
2012-01-19 12:16:08 PM  

Inflatable Rhetoric: I merely meant to give anyone who might look at the bible some insight, an alternative viewpoint.


Wow. Aren't you the trendy iconoclast.
 
2012-01-19 12:16:10 PM  

Bullseyed: Civil Discourse: Bullseyed: Tigger: Problem: you didn't read the article. They were not passed out. Essentially they were left on the floor in a box in the hallway. A couple of kids took them home of their own free will and free choice.

Problem: You don't understand the issue.

You'll probably keep bashing away at it though but here's what you're missing.

The distinction between whether they were passed out or put in a box is irrelevant. It doesn't matter. You keep drawing that distinction and it keeps being a total non-issue.

The issue is that books of type 1 were allowed to be left on the floor in a box in the hallway and books of type 2 were potentially not allowed to be left on the floor in a box in the hallway.

There is no indication that type 2 is a recognized mainstream religion. Again, my religion is pornologism, can I go hand out naked pictures to kids?

I'm sure if it was Muslim/Jewish/Buddhist/Hinduist texts there would be far less of an issue.

Your question here has already been answered. No, you could not hand out pornography to children, even if it were part of your religious beliefs. Where the gov't has a compelling interest it may curtail fundamental rights and deny equal protections. It could be reasonably argued that preventing the distribution of pornography to minors is a compelling interest of the gov't. In fact, the gov't has curtailed this right by making illegal the distribution of pornography to minors. Your position on this matter would hold if the contents of the 'spell-book' were similarly illegal.

"the government decides what is or isn't a religion". If I had said that, you'd disagree, but since you said it, I can concede that you are correct while at the same time proving my point.


This is the last one, then I'm done. The government does not (should not) expressly validate or invalidate religion. It may only discriminate or deny in specific instances where the interest in doing so is so compelling that it warrants infringing on fundamental rights. This infringement, however, is always held to be in the narrowest sense possible- just because a religion is held to not qualify for tax benefits does not deprive the religious expression of other rights and protections. For instance, if a school is allowing a religious text to be made available in the school office, it must allow other religious texts to be made available in the school office.

I understand that this is not a simple issue; there are reasonable disagreements to be had here, but this is not one of them.
 
2012-01-19 12:16:42 PM  

Bullseyed: Cheesus: Bullseyed: Farking Canuck: Bullseyed: The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

And when someone wanted to make a non-christian text 'available for pick-up' they changed the rules.

This shows that their policy to allow any donated books was a sham ... they only ever intended to allow christian books to be 'picked up' which is explicit endorsement of a single religion by a government facility. Which is against the law.

Your 'but-but-but it was only allowed for pick-up' excuse is as pathetic as the people who claimed they would allow any religious book but turned out to be liars.

Troll harder. There is nothing in the article to state that this was another religion book. It says it was "her spell book". For all we know this particular woman was the author. People immediately tried to leap to the book of wicca or the necronomicon, but if it was those books the article would have said it.

You can't allow people to make up their own religions and be afforded the same benefits as real religions.


How come no one complains when 6th and 7th graders read the Illiad and the Odyssey for history class? Greek and Roman mythology is paganism, but I don't see the atheists complaining.

We don't. We also don't complain when excerpts from the Bible are used in History, English, etc. Greek/Roman mythology is important to our culture. So is the Bible. These things are an important part of our history and culture that should be studied in school. The problem we have is wanting to teach the Bible as truth, and to bring God into the science curriculum. Or, as in this case, the school/government clearly favoring one religion over the other instead of giving all faiths equal treatment.

I had to read the Odyssey as part of history class when I was in school. That is comparable to using the Bible in science class.


Not really because:
a) It is one of the oldest written Greek stories that exists, and one that had a tremendous influence on that culture (some historians now believe that the greeks may have invented thier alphabet expressly for writing down the Illiad and the Oddessey, so admired where they by the ancient Greeks. So for the same reason most history classes also read "The epic of Gilgamesh" they read Homer

B) Like Troy, the places of the Oddessey were considered purely mythical until a sailor recreated a period boat and followed the sailing intructions in the text (they are there if you are a mariner and know what to look for) and found a place that more or less corresponds to every place named in the story (including a standing natural whirlpool in the Med right where Homer described it)
 
2012-01-19 12:17:32 PM  

Magorn: Xenomech:
Nahh it's just cause they miss the ritual and pagentry. Being somewhat self-aware about such things lets smile when I'm sitting in the back of a giant stone church on the vigil of "Easter" with every light source extinguished while a priest blesses and lights a "sacred" bonfire and the congregation all take small candles and light them from it.

That's a very old and sacred ritual to be sure, but it sure in hell ain't "Christian" at least not in origin.


That isn't really a ritual... that is kind of like saying people who go to candlelit vigils are trying to raise the person as a zombie with magic.

People like to play with fire and like the symbolism of light in darkness.
 
2012-01-19 12:17:48 PM  

I May Be Crazy But...: (According to my religion, refusing to volunteer to be a sacrifice is a crime, and the punishment is death, so it's not murder)


Oh, and credit where credit's due. I think I stole this from Terry Pratchett.
 
2012-01-19 12:19:12 PM  

Bullseyed: Civil Discourse: Bullseyed: o5iiawah: The actions by the school fail the 3-pronged Lemon vs Kurtzman test on 2 fronts.

While the bibles in the front office dont display excessive preference, it has clearly excluded another religion from distributing its texts. Also, the distribution of bibles doesn't fill any secular purpose. I predict the fist of courts coming soon.

Is this particular woman's coven registered as a religion? Don't you have to establish a not-for-profit, a place of worship, a roster of followers and a bunch of other stuff to be declared a religion in terms of tax purposes?

I think a coven is closer to a congregation than an underlying religion, so I think the more appropriate question would be the underlying religion's recognition by the IRS. There are certain requirements for favorable tax treatment, but I'm not sure that this line of questioning really matters in this circumstance.
A denial of a particular tax treatment does not deny a religion from being recognized otherwise. When the government denies equal protection to a protected class, or deprives a fundamental right, it must do so as narrowly as possible. Furthermore, the Gov't must have a compelling interest in doing so. It seems reasonable to say that preventing tax fraud is a fairly compelling interest. In contrast, I can not seem to think of a truly compelling reason for allowing one religious book to be available over another. In essence, the presumption is that the religion is recognized in all circumstances. Where there is a compelling reason to not recognize the religion, the denial is only valid in that specific context.

If there is no process for validating a religion, then one can make up whatever religion they so choose.

My religion involves rich people giving me lots of money, being able to sleep with any woman I choose at any time, and giving free naked pictures of myself to whomever I want whenever I want. I'll call it Gangstaologim. It'l ...


You Fail at understanding the constitution.

/side note this quote from scalia always makes me chuckle.

"Like some ghoul in a late night horror movie that repeatedly sits up in its grave and shuffles abroad, after being repeatedly killed and buried, Lemon stalks our Establishment Clause jurisprudence once again, frightening the little children and school attorneys of Center Moriches Union Free School District."
 
2012-01-19 12:19:53 PM  

Callous: Having religious texts in the school library, just like any other reference material, seems perfectly appropriate, but to hand it out doesn't. Unless of coarse it pertains to the lesson being taught.


All good religion teaching should be rough.
 
2012-01-19 12:20:53 PM  

JerkStore: The problem isn't whether the school gave them out versus allowing them to be picked up--that's just splitting hairs. The problem is that not one person in the administration said, "Hey, maybe this isn't appropriate for a public school, even if they were donated." They should have politely said, "No thanks, not appropriate here," and turned the Gideons away. Instead, this shows quite a bit of bias (Christianity is all about good stuff, right?), which is what secular schools are designed to avoid. At the very least it displays a stunning level of hypocrisy and ignorance. Are these really the people we want teaching our kids?


One hobo comes to your house and asks for food. You give him some soup because hell why not. The next day two hobos knock on your door. Meh. The next day five. Suddenly you realize you may have a problem.

They took the Bibles, made them available if anyone wanted them. Once they realized things were going to get out of hand, they shut the whole thing off for everyone. They weren't going to have enough space to stock a supply of every religious book on the planet in their office.
 
2012-01-19 12:22:25 PM  

Bloody William: Bullseyed: Important to note that there is no indication that this woman is a wiccan. She specifically identifies as a witch rather than a wiccan, and is trying to distribute her own pagan spell book rather than the book of wicca.

If she was part of an organized religion like wicca, she would have a more solid position. Essentially she made up her own religion and is demanding to be recognized as equal to real religions.


the organization must be organized and operated
exclusively for religious, educational, scientific, or other
charitable purposes,
■ net earnings may not inure to the benefit of any
private individual or shareholder,
■ no substantial part of its activity may be attempting
to influence legislation,
■ the organization may not intervene in political
campaigns, and
■ the organization's purposes and activities may not
be illegal or violate fundamental public policy

All you need to be an "official" church.


Yeah. When she conforms to all those, she can come back and try again.
 
2012-01-19 12:22:39 PM  

Bullseyed: One hobo comes to your house and asks for food. You give him some soup because hell why not. The next day two hobos knock on your door. Meh. The next day five. Suddenly you realize you may have a problem.

They took the Bibles, made them available if anyone wanted them. Once they realized things were going to get out of hand, they shut the whole thing off for everyone. They weren't going to have enough space to stock a supply of every religious book on the planet in their office.


Did you rupture anything from pulling a load that big straight out of your ass?
 
2012-01-19 12:26:13 PM  
They weren't going to have enough space to stock a supply of every religious book on the planet in their office.

They didn't have to - another non-issue you've made up in your head.

Quick question - what would you estimate your own IQ to be...just ball park it for us. There's a data set reported in the journal of personality and social psychology and I think we just found another example.
 
2012-01-19 12:26:19 PM  

Bloody William: Bullseyed: So you're saying the Gone with the Wind and Bravehart are fictional stories based on extrapolations of historical events. ie.) Not 100% fiction.

Um... yes. 100% fiction. Historical fiction is 100% fiction. It is not an account of history. It is fiction. It is made up. It might be based on things that happened in history, but it is not something with any academic worth outside of sociological and getting a unique perspective on events with the knowledge that you're seeing them through the lens of literature and not history.

If I say Abraham Lincoln said to Ulysses S. Grant that he was a magnificent bastard and he read his book, that would be a 100% fictional account, even though both people existed.


It would be 66% fact, 33% unconfirmed. Who knows, maybe Abe did call Grant a magnificent bastard. I don't think anyone recorded every conversation they ever had.

Sure, would probably go in the fiction section of a bookstore, but that has no bearing on anything. If a book or movie is 99% fact and 1% fiction then it would get filed under fiction. That doesn't mean it magically becomes 100% fiction.
 
2012-01-19 12:27:13 PM  

I May Be Crazy But...: Ha! That's pretty funny. Do you happen to have a link to any of the information still?


Yes, oddly enough I do.

Link (new window)

the conclusion basically says: "I hear you like Holy Days on your Holidays so we put a Holiday on your Holy day. You Mad?"

Inflatable Rhetoric: Why do you have a problem with this?


3.bp.blogspot.com

You should try reading books instead of writing in them!
 
2012-01-19 12:29:12 PM  

Bullseyed: Magorn: Xenomech:
Nahh it's just cause they miss the ritual and pagentry. Being somewhat self-aware about such things lets smile when I'm sitting in the back of a giant stone church on the vigil of "Easter" with every light source extinguished while a priest blesses and lights a "sacred" bonfire and the congregation all take small candles and light them from it.

That's a very old and sacred ritual to be sure, but it sure in hell ain't "Christian" at least not in origin.

That isn't really a ritual... that is kind of like saying people who go to candlelit vigils are trying to raise the person as a zombie with magic.

People like to play with fire and like the symbolism of light in darkness.


True but very specifically the extinguishing of all sources of flame and hearth fires in a country and then re-lighting them with a brand from a sacred bonfire, was how Beltaine was celebrated by the Irish druids (All though we know little about the druids amd their practices, we're faily sure on this one because it is not only mentioned in pre-Christian writings; but defying this custom features prominently in the story of St. Patrick)

Since Beltaine was basically the celebration of the spring equinox, it is in my mind no coincidence that an echo of the practice worked its way into the high Easter mass
 
2012-01-19 12:29:50 PM  

Leeds: Bullseyed: Bloody William: Bullseyed: So Egypt doesn't exist? They never enslaved the Hebrew people? The Babylonian Empire never existed? Etc, etc.

Someone should inform the makers of all this history text books.

Gone With The Wind was a book of fiction but the Civil War still happened. Braveheart was fiction but the Scottish uprising against England still happened. The Passion of the Christ was fiction but... well, no, still fiction.

So you're saying the Gone with the Wind and Bravehart are fictional stories based on extrapolations of historical events. ie.) Not 100% fiction.

If I wrote a story about a dog and the young invisible martian who befriended him, would you consider it nonfiction because there is such a thing as a dog?


The logical fallacy known as: Affirming the consequent - draws a conclusion from premises that do not support that conclusion by confusing necessary and sufficient conditions.

Example:
Argument: If people have the flu, they cough. Torres is coughing. Therefore, Torres has the flu.



In your example the book would classify in a bookstore as fiction, but would not be 100% fiction as dogs and men exist. Only invisible men don't exist. At least not yet anyway. Physics have a plan for invisibility.
 
2012-01-19 12:32:10 PM  

KrispyKritter: church people should be out promoting good works and performing good deeds for family, neighbors and people of the community. lead by example. knock on peoples doors and let them know they are welcome at your house of worship.


No, they should be busy accepting Jesus as their own personal savior and making sure everyone else does. Good works get you nowhere. At least, that's the Jack T. Chick school of thought. (new window)

/not my school of thought though
 
2012-01-19 12:32:21 PM  

Farking Canuck: Bullseyed: She specifically identifies as a witch rather than a wiccan, and is trying to distribute her own pagan spell book rather than the book of wicca.

So you're just going to completely ignore the other article (posted twice) that states that it was a informational book on the wiccan religion??


MOMMA I WANT MY CHEERIOS NOW!!! WAAAAHHH.

Posts will be read and responded to in the order they appear.
 
2012-01-19 12:32:41 PM  
Bullseyed All you need to be an "official" church.

Yeah. When she conforms to all those, she can come back and try again.


Are those for persons, or organizations? She herself probably can't claim that. Her coven, fellowship, or whatever could. Yes, there are pagan organizations that have applied for non-profit status, and received it.
 
2012-01-19 12:32:51 PM  

Bullseyed: It would be 66% fact, 33% unconfirmed. Who knows, maybe Abe did call Grant a magnificent bastard. I don't think anyone recorded every conversation they ever had.

Sure, would probably go in the fiction section of a bookstore, but that has no bearing on anything. If a book or movie is 99% fact and 1% fiction then it would get filed under fiction. That doesn't mean it magically becomes 100% fiction.


www.determinismsucks.net
 
2012-01-19 12:33:43 PM  

The Homer Tax: Bullseyed: Nope. The treatment was denied to all religions including Christianity. The policy was suspended for review by the lawyers.

If I hold a sale at my store and everyone who buys the product on sale is of one religion and someone of another religion tries to buy the product after the sale is over, it is not discrimination. They missed the sale. So sad, too bad.

The treatment was originally granted to the people wishing to distribute Christian religious material. The policy was suspended when someone wanted to distribute religious material pertaining to a different religion.

In your analogy it would actaully be like if you held a sale and continued to hold said sale as long as only white people were buying things, but when a black person came to the counter you said "sorry, sale's over" and ended the sale for everyone.


Except the woman complained about the policy, resulting in the suspension of the policy, prior to trying to use the policy for her own media attention erm I mean religion.
 
2012-01-19 12:36:33 PM  

Bullseyed: If the law was indeed clear you would be able to cite this law, no?


Case law is still law. The case in question is probably Everson v. Board of Education of Ewing Township, 330 U.S. 1 (1947). "[The First] Amendment requires the state to be a neutral in its relations with groups of religious believers and nonbelievers; it does not require the state to be their adversary." Thus, allowing access to one religious group and not another violates the principle of neutrality. (The case law for why not merely unequal access, but any distribution at all in an elementary school is also problematic, is a bit more complex; and I Am Not A Lawyer. There are a few actual lawyers on Fark who periodically post general pointers for the benefit of public understanding; you might care to ask one.)

Bullseyed: Public schools should be a state/local issue


Under what ought-ordering basis? Certainly not existing law. Establishment clause of the First Amendment has been held to be Incorporated to the states by the Fourteenth since circa 1947; and the principle of separation -- even for the states -- had considerable common political parlance long since well before. (Largely, to limit Catholic influence.)
 
2012-01-19 12:36:38 PM  

Bullseyed: Is that the Canadian spelling? Over here well spell it with an oh instead of the eh.


'Moran' is a commonly used Internet meme, it comes from this:

i2.kym-cdn.com

It's just such a beautiful, poetic, perfect illustration of irony. Because as we all know, there is nothing more awesome than when someone makes an obvious spelling error in an insult about intelligence. There's just something about a person who doesn't realize he's dumb, calling another (probably smarter) person 'dumb' that delights us as human beings.

So it's just perfect that you ironically insulted his intelligence for his 'moran' reference. Because here you are, thinking he's dumb and has misspelled a word, when the reality of the matter is, he actually said something that went over your head, and you're assuming he's dumb because you're too dumb to have picked up on it.

Delicious.
 
2012-01-19 12:36:58 PM  

im14u2c: KrispyKritter: church people should be out promoting good works and performing good deeds for family, neighbors and people of the community. lead by example. knock on peoples doors and let them know they are welcome at your house of worship.

No, they should be busy accepting Jesus as their own personal savior and making sure everyone else does. Good works get you nowhere. At least, that's the Jack T. Chick school of thought. (new window)

/not my school of thought though


Wow. There are no words.
 
2012-01-19 12:37:11 PM  

Bloody William: Bullseyed: Yeah. Offensive speech is still free, for now anyway.

I'm not saying you should be censored. Just that you're being a twat.

Since the principle purpose of this woman's religion appears to be attempting to influence legislation, it would fail this test.

No.

Also, you mean principal.


Damn. I haven't made one of those mistakes in a while. Probably rushing since people keep crying that I don't respond to their precious snowflake beliefs quick enough.
 
2012-01-19 12:37:21 PM  

Bullseyed: o5iiawah: The actions by the school fail the 3-pronged Lemon vs Kurtzman test on 2 fronts.

While the bibles in the front office dont display excessive preference, it has clearly excluded another religion from distributing its texts. Also, the distribution of bibles doesn't fill any secular purpose. I predict the fist of courts coming soon.

Is this particular woman's coven registered as a religion? Don't you have to establish a not-for-profit, a place of worship, a roster of followers and a bunch of other stuff to be declared a religion in terms of tax purposes?


Only if this is tax court. Unlike Canada, you don't need to be part of an established religion to practice your freedom of religion in the US.
 
2012-01-19 12:38:02 PM  

halfof33: I May Be Crazy But...: Ha! That's pretty funny. Do you happen to have a link to any of the information still?

Yes, oddly enough I do.

Link (new window)

the conclusion basically says: "I hear you like Holy Days on your Holidays so we put a Holiday on your Holy day. You Mad?"

Inflatable Rhetoric: Why do you have a problem with this?

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 320x240]

You should try reading books instead of writing in them!


I've read several. ! ! !
 
2012-01-19 12:38:47 PM  
Yet in the "Muslim speaker brought to public school to explain Islam to students" story a few days ago, every single Farker thought it was a great idea......

Make a choice and stick by it folks. Religion pushed in schools or not, but you can't pick your religion of choice and exclude others.
 
2012-01-19 12:38:57 PM  

The Homer Tax: Bullseyed: That article also falsely states that they turned away her donation under the policy when in fact the entire policy was suspended when she complained, prior to attempting to donate.

The word "complain" is no where in TFA. You have completely invented this timeline. You are lying. Bearing False witness is a sin.

Bullseyed: Yes, The Homer Tax believes that there is no difference between soliciting sex from a prostitute and the prostitute offering sex to you.

300 posts into this thread and I'm astounded as to the fact that you don't grasp why the distribution method is immaterial. It has been explained to you over and over again. You are literally arguing about somethign that no one is actually disagreeing with you about.


If no one is disagreeing with me then you must also believe that the distribution method is important.

Anyway, ask a cop if there is a difference between soliciting sex and being solicited for sex. (Hint: there is and it will probably result in jail time if you try it out)
 
2012-01-19 12:40:12 PM  

halfof33: I May Be Crazy But...: Ha! That's pretty funny. Do you happen to have a link to any of the information still?

Yes, oddly enough I do.

Link (new window)

the conclusion basically says: "I hear you like Holy Days on your Holidays so we put a Holiday on your Holy day. You Mad?"


Thanks
 
2012-01-19 12:41:16 PM  
Wait, what? Hypocritical christians? No way!
 
2012-01-19 12:42:09 PM  

mithras_angel: Bullseyed: Bloody William: Bullseyed:

Also, I noticed you haven't responded to the Lemon Test standards for religious endorsement. Or really anything else substantive. Are you a troll?

Because no one has defeated the details of the situation argument yet. I'm not going to worry about the murder weapon until someone has a dead body.


Courts have rulesd that "making available" even if only providing space and/or time can count as an endorsement. Especially when that space and/or time isn't made to other groups.


After I get out of "meeting hell", I'll try to remember to look up some citations on this.


Aren't muslim kids afforded space in school to say their daily/hourly/whatever prayers?

Lots of government entities provide chaplains.


Either way, about time we work on getting rid of the power hungry activist judges.
 
2012-01-19 12:45:04 PM  

Bullseyed: Leeds: Bullseyed: Except it isn't a real religion, just like how this woman's these Gideon's "spell books" aren't real religion either.

FTFY

The Bible does not contain magical spells. When you find the Bible verse that explains how to make a love potion or shoot lightning from my hands let me know.


FAIL.

Surely you have heard of the magical spells that are called "prayer."
 
2012-01-19 12:45:42 PM  

Leeds: Bullseyed: Leeds: Some of the wonderfully colorful phrases from that hate-filled snuff book:

Zechariah 13:3 - If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.

Nahum 1:2-8 - The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night.

1 Kings 20:35-36 - Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 - If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Etc, etc.

Two of those four are the Hebrew Bible not the Christian Bibl ...


Shrug. I'm not Anglican or Puritan. I go more by the Council of Trent than King Henry the 8th.
 
2012-01-19 12:46:20 PM  

Thunderpipes: Yet in the "Muslim speaker brought to public school to explain Islam to students" story a few days ago, every single Farker thought it was a great idea......

Make a choice and stick by it folks. Religion pushed in schools or not, but you can't pick your religion of choice and exclude others.


It's a waste of time explaining things like "reality" to you but a religious leader being asked by the students to come and answer cultural questions not pushing a religion, and people from other religions were not disinvited to come.

Using schools as a place to distribute your literature does count as pushing a religion on kids, no matter who "donated" the literature.

Don't stop intentionally misrepresenting the situation on my account though, you wouldn't have a reason to post then.
 
2012-01-19 12:47:09 PM  

Tigger: But I'm sure everyone else in the world is wrong and you have secret knowledge revealed to you from a higher power.

You do realise that your claim here in this very thread is that everyone else is wrong and you alone are right?

I could watch this shiat all day. It's the intellectual equivalent of a donkey show.


If you believe I am in fact a troll like other claim, then that is the point. And you watching all day means I am winning.


I guess I need attention just like that silly wizard woman.
 
2012-01-19 12:47:37 PM  

Bullseyed: You can't allow people to make up their own religions and be afforded the same benefits as real religions.


Christianity is made up too. Just made up a lot longer ago.
 
2012-01-19 12:50:27 PM  

Civil Discourse: Bullseyed: Civil Discourse: Bullseyed: Cheesus: Bullseyed: The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.

"Schools should not be giving out one religion's materials and not others," Strivelli said.


The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

Is the school giving out children when they allow parents to pick their kids up?

Personally I don't have much problem with that. What I do have a problem with is them excluding other religions that want their materials given the same treatment. They cannot do that.

My religion is call pornologism. Can I now give out playboys at the local school?

No. Your rights can be curtailed by the government, and they must have a compelling reason to do so. You may disagree with it personally, but a court is incredibly likely to find that preventing the distribution of pornography to minors is a compelling interest of the state. In fact, it's already against the law.

I was unaware that the establishment clause said freedom of religion when it is convenient.

However, you did manage to go and prove my point for me. The government has precedent in deciding whether a religion is valid or not. Ergo the school may also exercise such decision making as an agent of the government.

Game. Set. Match.

Listen, I really not trying to be a snarky dick, but you do not seem to understand how equal protection works, and you have misconstrued the issues pertinent to its proper analysis. I'm only writing this because I think it is important that people understand how our legal system works, and the limits and extent of government power. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, nor am I actually taking a stance on the issue. I am telling you how the system works, whether you agree with it or not is a question of public policy.

The question is not about the validity of the religion as an actual belief. There is a presumption that people are free to exercise their ...


That would be why I said if this woman is a wiccan or something, full steam ahead.

All accounts seem to indicate though that she essentially typed up a spell book on her computer, went down to Walmart and got copies printed and is trying to give it to kids because she was butt-hurt that her son was getting made fun of at school for having a silly name and being an ultra-minority.
 
2012-01-19 12:50:46 PM  
Leeds:

Surely you have heard of the magical spells that are called "prayer."

*yawn*

3/10
 
2012-01-19 12:51:41 PM  

im14u2c: No, they should be busy accepting Jesus as their own personal savior and making sure everyone else does. Good works get you nowhere. At least, that's the Jack T. Chick school of thought. (new window)


Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you, the most farked up, backwards, demented religion on the planet.
 
2012-01-19 12:52:06 PM  

Callous: Bullseyed: Bloody William: Bullseyed: So Egypt doesn't exist? They never enslaved the Hebrew people? The Babylonian Empire never existed? Etc, etc.

Someone should inform the makers of all this history text books.

Gone With The Wind was a book of fiction but the Civil War still happened. Braveheart was fiction but the Scottish uprising against England still happened. The Passion of the Christ was fiction but... well, no, still fiction.

So you're saying the Gone with the Wind and Bravehart are fictional stories based on extrapolations of historical events. ie.) Not 100% fiction.

The problem with most works based on true events is that you as the reader/viewer don't know where the truth ends and the fiction/dramatization begins.

Jesus Christ and William Wallace were in fact real people. Some of the major events in their lives are known, some liberties have been taken with the details by many as there aren't a lot of factual details available.

The difference is did the creator of said work try to be as historically accurate as they could. Did they look at the practices and customs common at the time and fill in the blanks with what is likely to have occurred or did they just make it up to sound good or exciting.


FYI "Christ" isn't Jesus's last name. It is a title that essentially means He is the Son of God. For the purpose of your post you should say Jesus of Nazareth.
 
2012-01-19 12:52:22 PM  

Bullseyed: Leeds: Bullseyed: Any religion that isn't Jewish/Christian/Muslim is pagan/heathen. Especially so if they are polytheistic.

Fail.

Christianity is polytheistic (they worship 3 gods). And most of Christianity has devolved into blatant idol worship anyway (crosses, magical beads, etc).

False.

Monotheism (from Greek μόνος, monos, "single", and θεός, theos, "god") is the belief in the existence of one god or in the oneness of God. Monotheism is traditionally characteristic of Judaism, Christianity, Islam; while also being a recognizable component of numerous other religions.

But I'm sure everyone else in the world is wrong and you have secret knowledge revealed to you from a higher power.


I'm a human being, thus your suggestion that there are "higher powers" is ludicrous.

But back to the topic at hand- Why do you pretend that Christians are monotheists. They worship two gods too many to be monotheists.

1) The creator
2) Jesus
3) The holy Spook

How can I make this more clear for you?

When counting the christian gods, thou shall count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then thou shalt know the number of the Christian gods.
 
2012-01-19 12:54:22 PM  

dustygrimp: Bullseyed: You can't allow people to make up their own religions and be afforded the same benefits as real religions.

Christianity is made up too. Just made up a lot longer ago.


The thing is, if the US goverment started determining what is religion and what isn't, then it also sneaks into establishing "approved" religions and "disapproved" religions, which is precisely what the Founding Fathers wanted to avoid.

Buddhism is an accepted religion the world wide, but for the first few decades of its existence its only follower was the guy who came up with it. Who gets to say what is a "real" religion? The First Amendment says not the government.
 
2012-01-19 12:55:37 PM  

Cheesus: Bullseyed: Civil Discourse: Bullseyed: Tigger: Problem: you didn't read the article. They were not passed out. Essentially they were left on the floor in a box in the hallway. A couple of kids took them home of their own free will and free choice.

Problem: You don't understand the issue.

You'll probably keep bashing away at it though but here's what you're missing.

The distinction between whether they were passed out or put in a box is irrelevant. It doesn't matter. You keep drawing that distinction and it keeps being a total non-issue.

The issue is that books of type 1 were allowed to be left on the floor in a box in the hallway and books of type 2 were potentially not allowed to be left on the floor in a box in the hallway.

There is no indication that type 2 is a recognized mainstream religion. Again, my religion is pornologism, can I go hand out naked pictures to kids?

I'm sure if it was Muslim/Jewish/Buddhist/Hinduist texts there would be far less of an issue.

Your question here has already been answered. No, you could not hand out pornography to children, even if it were part of your religious beliefs. Where the gov't has a compelling interest it may curtail fundamental rights and deny equal protections. It could be reasonably argued that preventing the distribution of pornography to minors is a compelling interest of the gov't. In fact, the gov't has curtailed this right by making illegal the distribution of pornography to minors. Your position on this matter would hold if the contents of the 'spell-book' were similarly illegal.

I know. That was my point. It is easier to teach someone if you let them come upon it than if I said outright "the government decides what is or isn't a religion". If I had said that, you'd disagree, but since you said it, I can concede that you are correct while at the same time proving my point.

Proven what point? Your religion is as valid as any other religion. The law has nothing to do with your religious status. Yo ...


Nope. As many others have pointed out here there are established legal requirements for what constitutes a real religion.
 
2012-01-19 12:55:53 PM  

MissMechante: safeforwork: My half-sister in-law's mom is a pagan living on the TN/NC border. She runs a B&B and gives weddings on her property. She passes out condoms with her place advertised on them. She's *real* popular with the locals, let me tell you...

/got nothin, article just reminded me of her
//usually ends up marrying off the 'freaks and heretics' of the community, by which I mean people who dared get divorced and married again, or the bride and groom aren't uncomfortably close relatives of each other...

send me a link to her place, I would love to send business there. She sounds cool.
/athiest living on the NC/TN border


I apologize if this is against some rule, but I can't see a way of sending a PM:

http://www.safehavenfarm.com/

Her place is *really* nice, and on the lower end in cost for the area... and also about the only spot on Roan Mountain that has any kind of cellular signal :)

Also, her husband looks exactly like Gandalf.

(also, those are some adorable heelers you have there!)
 
2012-01-19 12:56:05 PM  

KrispyKritter: screw them and screw that. church people should be out promoting good works and performing good deeds for family, neighbors and people of the community. lead by example. knock on peoples doors and let them know they are welcome at your house of worship.

i've seen very little of that in life. if these people really gave a damn about their fellow man and saving souls they would be looking after society's many untended and forgotten.


I'm fine with everything except the bolded part.
Do NOT knock on my door to sell me your religion. When you see the mezuzah on my doorpost, just pass on over to somebody without one.

This means YOU:
Mormons - it's a Palin-American Stupid Idea(TM) for pasty-white WASPS to refer to the descendants of a long line of rabbis as "Gentiles!"
Jehovah's Witnesses - there is no "J" sound in Hebrew, and that is NOT The Name.
Evangelicals/Fundies - come callin' when MY rabbi knocks on YOUR door to tell you all about Moses.

/Do not darken my doorway, proselytizers.
 
2012-01-19 12:57:07 PM  

Bullseyed: Callous: The Homer Tax: Bullseyed: So did the student go to the office to pick one up or was he given one?

He went to the office to go pick one up, but when he got there instead of the child picking the book up himself, a teacher gave it to him. Are you even trying here?

Are you seriously splitting that hair?

The difference between a prostitute offering sex and a person requesting sex from a prostitute is pretty large.

I don't see why this is any different. If I say "hey I have Bibles if anyone wants one" that is entirely different than if I say "here take this Bible".

I'm sorry that most posters here lack the linguistic knowledge to differentiate between the two.


If the kid walks into the office and requests the book it doesn't matter who lifted it out of the box. Now if the child walks into the office and they are handing them one without the request you would be right, but that's not the case.
 
2012-01-19 12:58:05 PM  
The problem with the bible is that when you wipe your butt with the pages the ink comes off making more of a mess.
 
2012-01-19 12:58:08 PM  

Bullseyed: Cheesus: Bullseyed: Civil Discourse: Bullseyed: Tigger: Problem: you didn't read the article. They were not passed out. Essentially they were left on the floor in a box in the hallway. A couple of kids took them home of their own free will and free choice.

Problem: You don't understand the issue.

You'll probably keep bashing away at it though but here's what you're missing.

The distinction between whether they were passed out or put in a box is irrelevant. It doesn't matter. You keep drawing that distinction and it keeps being a total non-issue.

The issue is that books of type 1 were allowed to be left on the floor in a box in the hallway and books of type 2 were potentially not allowed to be left on the floor in a box in the hallway.

There is no indication that type 2 is a recognized mainstream religion. Again, my religion is pornologism, can I go hand out naked pictures to kids?

I'm sure if it was Muslim/Jewish/Buddhist/Hinduist texts there would be far less of an issue.

Your question here has already been answered. No, you could not hand out pornography to children, even if it were part of your religious beliefs. Where the gov't has a compelling interest it may curtail fundamental rights and deny equal protections. It could be reasonably argued that preventing the distribution of pornography to minors is a compelling interest of the gov't. In fact, the gov't has curtailed this right by making illegal the distribution of pornography to minors. Your position on this matter would hold if the contents of the 'spell-book' were similarly illegal.

I know. That was my point. It is easier to teach someone if you let them come upon it than if I said outright "the government decides what is or isn't a religion". If I had said that, you'd disagree, but since you said it, I can concede that you are correct while at the same time proving my point.

Proven what point? Your religion is as valid as any other religion. The law has nothing to do with your religious st ...


And the government has decreed that Pagans and Wiccans meet those requirements as evidenced by their inclusion in the military as official recognized religions.

Do you get tired of getting proven wrong?
 
2012-01-19 12:59:12 PM  

Duck_of_Doom: Bullseyed Two of those four are the Hebrew Bible not the Christian Bible, FYI.

Fail, utter and complete.

The four listed are all Old Testament, listed in the King James Bible - not 2 in one 2 in another. Moreover, for a Christian, the "Hebrew Bible" is half the Bible. Christians believe it as much as the New Testament, yet they give more weight to the latter teachings (supposedly). Hence the ghey hate and Biblical living pablum.

http://www.christnotes.org/bible.php?ver=niv


The Books of the Bible are listed differently in the canons of Judaism and the Catholic, Protestant, Greek Orthodox, Slavonic Orthodox, Coptic, Georgian Orthodox, Armenian Apostolic, Syriac, Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox churches, although there is substantial overlap.

I suppose what I should have said is two of those books are not common to all the Christian religions. While I was referring to all Christians, you and a few others restricted "Christian" to "only Protestants".
 
2012-01-19 01:00:36 PM  

knobmaker: Bullseyed: Farking Canuck: Bullseyed: How is a spellbook comparable to a book of stories to begin with?

They are both 100% fiction used to fleece money out of gullible people.

/you asked

So Egypt doesn't exist? They never enslaved the Hebrew people? The Babylonian Empire never existed? Etc, etc.

Someone should inform the makers of all this history text books.

You're dumb, and there's no hope for you. Does the existence of insane asylums make One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest non-fiction?


Aww, another person who failed logic class. Cute.

Less than 100% fiction does not equal non-fiction. 99% fiction and 1% fact is not 100% fiction.
 
2012-01-19 01:01:01 PM  

Callous: Bullseyed: Callous: The Homer Tax: Bullseyed: So did the student go to the office to pick one up or was he given one?

He went to the office to go pick one up, but when he got there instead of the child picking the book up himself, a teacher gave it to him. Are you even trying here?

Are you seriously splitting that hair?

The difference between a prostitute offering sex and a person requesting sex from a prostitute is pretty large.

I don't see why this is any different. If I say "hey I have Bibles if anyone wants one" that is entirely different than if I say "here take this Bible".

I'm sorry that most posters here lack the linguistic knowledge to differentiate between the two.

If the kid walks into the office and requests the book it doesn't matter who lifted it out of the box. Now if the child walks into the office and they are handing them one without the request you would be right, but that's not the case.


Let's not forget that half of this issue is that they didn't allow the Wiccan woman to distribute her literature like they allowed the Gideon's, forcefulness of the distribution is irrelevant legally speaking so much as they were playing religious favorites.
 
2012-01-19 01:01:30 PM  
the only thing I got out of this thread is that Bullseyed is an idiot. Oh, and Pendantic Nonsense would be a great name for a band.
 
2012-01-19 01:01:31 PM  
Leeds:

Why do you pretend that Christians are monotheists. They worship two gods too many to be monotheists.

Just FYI, there are Christians who don't believe in a triune God. And your characterization is incorrect anyway: It's ONE God; three, um, aspects.
 
2012-01-19 01:01:51 PM  
If you believe I am in fact a troll like other claim, then that is the point. And you watching all day means I am winning.


I don't think you're a troll.

I think you're hilariously stupid.
 
2012-01-19 01:06:12 PM  

Bullseyed: Leeds: Bullseyed: Any religion that isn't Jewish/Christian/Muslim is pagan/heathen. Especially so if they are polytheistic.

Fail.

Christianity is polytheistic (they worship 3 gods). And most of Christianity has devolved into blatant idol worship anyway (crosses, magical beads, etc).

False.

Monotheism (from Greek μόνος, monos, "single", and θεός, theos, "god") is the belief in the existence of one god or in the oneness of God. Monotheism is traditionally characteristic of Judaism, Christianity, Islam; while also being a recognizable component of numerous other religions.


But I'm sure everyone else in the world is wrong and you have secret knowledge revealed to you from a higher power.


And you don't seem to understand his reference to the father, the son, and the holy spirit.
 
2012-01-19 01:06:31 PM  

Bullseyed: Less than 100% fiction does not equal non-fiction. 99% fiction and 1% fact is not 100% fiction.


Fiction is fiction.

/So why should it be that you and I get along so awfully?
 
2012-01-19 01:07:06 PM  

Bullseyed: That would be why I said if this woman is a wiccan or something, full steam ahead.

All accounts seem to indicate though that she essentially typed up a spell book on her computer, went down to Walmart and got copies printed and is trying to give it to kids because she was butt-hurt that her son was getting made fun of at school for having a silly name and being an ultra-minority.


That may be the case, but the source of the religious text or how people view the strength/tradition/seriousness/silliness of the religion are not factors a court would use in determining whether the government may discriminate against a religion. The motivation for this woman doing what she did is also irrelevant to the legal analysis. I know you are trying to say that this isn't even a religion, and I agree with you if the facts are as you say, but the government is not entitled to make such a distinction. It must treat all religious beliefs & practices as equal, and may only act to discriminate against such if they have a compelling reason to do so.
 
2012-01-19 01:07:49 PM  

Magorn: Bullseyed: Magorn: Xenomech:
Nahh it's just cause they miss the ritual and pagentry. Being somewhat self-aware about such things lets smile when I'm sitting in the back of a giant stone church on the vigil of "Easter" with every light source extinguished while a priest blesses and lights a "sacred" bonfire and the congregation all take small candles and light them from it.

That's a very old and sacred ritual to be sure, but it sure in hell ain't "Christian" at least not in origin.

That isn't really a ritual... that is kind of like saying people who go to candlelit vigils are trying to raise the person as a zombie with magic.

People like to play with fire and like the symbolism of light in darkness.

True but very specifically the extinguishing of all sources of flame and hearth fires in a country and then re-lighting them with a brand from a sacred bonfire, was how Beltaine was celebrated by the Irish druids (All though we know little about the druids amd their practices, we're faily sure on this one because it is not only mentioned in pre-Christian writings; but defying this custom features prominently in the story of St. Patrick)

Since Beltaine was basically the celebration of the spring equinox, it is in my mind no coincidence that an echo of the practice worked its way into the high Easter mass


I'm not saying that at some point there was not a concerted effort to convert pagan traditions into Christian ones, but most people were exceedingly unintelligent back then.

The amusing part is how the left and the media today illustrate that process as a power grab meant to control the people. If controlling the people was the goal, the politicians could have simply put themselves in positions of power in those pagan traditions and assumed control.
 
2012-01-19 01:09:10 PM  

Duck_of_Doom: Bullseyed All you need to be an "official" church.

Yeah. When she conforms to all those, she can come back and try again.

Are those for persons, or organizations? She herself probably can't claim that. Her coven, fellowship, or whatever could. Yes, there are pagan organizations that have applied for non-profit status, and received it.


Those pagan organizations that have achieved that status can then distribute their books in any public school they want as far as I care.

She can't because she doesn't follow the rules. Just wants attention.
 
2012-01-19 01:13:41 PM  

Oxygen_Thief: /side note this quote from scalia always makes me chuckle.

"Like some ghoul in a late night horror movie that repeatedly sits up in its grave and shuffles abroad, after being repeatedly killed and buried, Lemon stalks our Establishment Clause jurisprudence once again, frightening the little children and school attorneys of Center Moriches Union Free School District."


Say what you like about his jurisprudence, but Scalia is far and away the most entertaining of the justices.
 
2012-01-19 01:15:02 PM  

Bullseyed: Anyway, ask a cop if there is a difference between soliciting sex and being solicited for sex. (Hint: there is and it will probably result in jail time if you try it out)


So if I grasp your analogy properly, in the school situation they aren't 'soliciting' students to read the Bible, they're just making it available and the students who are interested are 'soliciting' them for the bibles?

So then, by your analogy a hooker would not incur the same penalties if she simply setup a 'BJs for $5' stand rather than directly offering sex for money? Or vice versa, a John could instead setup a 'I will give you $5 for a BJ' stand instead of approaching the hooker?

And likewise, if I setup a website with downloadable copies of movies that are currently in theaters, I certainly won't get fined or arrested for distributing copyrighted material, right? Because I'm not 'distributing' them, I'm just making them available for interested parties.

Under the law, if you make printed material available, distribution occurs the moment someone takes it. Give it up. The school was distributing bibles.
 
2012-01-19 01:17:18 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: dustygrimp: Bullseyed: You can't allow people to make up their own religions and be afforded the same benefits as real religions.

Christianity is made up too. Just made up a lot longer ago.

The thing is, if the US goverment started determining what is religion and what isn't, then it also sneaks into establishing "approved" religions and "disapproved" religions, which is precisely what the Founding Fathers wanted to avoid.

Buddhism is an accepted religion the world wide, but for the first few decades of its existence its only follower was the guy who came up with it. Who gets to say what is a "real" religion? The First Amendment says not the government.


I said the government was doing it, I didn't say it was right.

You can thank FDR for the socialist expansion of the government into the arena of protecting us from ourselves.
 
2012-01-19 01:18:41 PM  

Andrew Wiggin: sybilsue?


Pagans take a sacred personal name as part of a journey to understand their inner selves. Some of us change our everyday names, too, either to our sacred name or to one we just like. This name probably has a lot of meaning to her, even if it admittedly sounds a bit silly.

/Also, Pagans: We have a sense of humor.
//And this is why I love my religion.
 
2012-01-19 01:18:52 PM  

Cheeseburger: Leeds:

Why do you pretend that Christians are monotheists. They worship two gods too many to be monotheists.

Just FYI, there are Christians who don't believe in a triune God. And your characterization is incorrect anyway: It's ONE God; three, um, aspects.


Which of the three Christian gods do the fabled monotheistic Christians choose as their god?
 
2012-01-19 01:19:55 PM  
The origin of both books in question:

img39.imageshack.us
 
2012-01-19 01:20:19 PM  

Xenomech: Magorn: Jake Havechek: Paganism....

You mean like symbolically ingesting the body and blood of a divine being as a regular ceremony? Believing a guy was killed, came back to life 3 days later, and then floated up into the sky?

That kind of paganism?

There is a reason that, of the 3 or 4 dozen Pagans i know personally, about 90% are ex-Catholics


Even the briefest study of history shows the reason:

[img850.imageshack.us image 400x300]


That's quite a sample you have there. Irrefutable evidence that 90% of all pagans are ex catholics. I guess the rest were born pagan. Bunch of breeders.
 
2012-01-19 01:20:33 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: Callous: Bullseyed: Callous: The Homer Tax: Bullseyed: So did the student go to the office to pick one up or was he given one?

He went to the office to go pick one up, but when he got there instead of the child picking the book up himself, a teacher gave it to him. Are you even trying here?

Are you seriously splitting that hair?

The difference between a prostitute offering sex and a person requesting sex from a prostitute is pretty large.

I don't see why this is any different. If I say "hey I have Bibles if anyone wants one" that is entirely different than if I say "here take this Bible".

I'm sorry that most posters here lack the linguistic knowledge to differentiate between the two.

If the kid walks into the office and requests the book it doesn't matter who lifted it out of the box. Now if the child walks into the office and they are handing them one without the request you would be right, but that's not the case.

Let's not forget that half of this issue is that they didn't allow the Wiccan woman to distribute her literature like they allowed the Gideon's, forcefulness of the distribution is irrelevant legally speaking so much as they were playing religious favorites.


1.) The woman is not wiccan. As best we can tell from the article, she has her own religion that she made up.

2.) The policy was put under review by the school district legal team. The distribution method is exactly the point, because if they decide that making the books available by request is ok, then they could accept wiccan literature as well.
 
2012-01-19 01:21:35 PM  

Bullseyed: The amusing part is how the left and the media today illustrate that process as a power grab meant to control the people.


Actually in most cases we're not trying to illustrate a power grab, we're trying to illustrate that these things you believe in are complete and utter bullshiat, in the hopes that maybe you'll stop trying to run a country, and a legal system, based on things that are make believe.
 
2012-01-19 01:21:52 PM  
Wiccan, pagan, heathen, baptist, LDS, jew, muslim et. al.

Who cares? All wackos.

But: "It's wrong yo be French"
 
2012-01-19 01:21:55 PM  

Cheeseburger: Leeds:

Why do you pretend that Christians are monotheists. They worship two gods too many to be monotheists.

Just FYI, there are Christians who don't believe in a triune God. And your characterization is incorrect anyway: It's ONE God; three, um, aspects.


If you are not a monotheist you are not Christian.

Just like how if you have voted Democrat you are not Catholic.
 
2012-01-19 01:22:33 PM  

Tigger: If you believe I am in fact a troll like other claim, then that is the point. And you watching all day means I am winning.


I don't think you're a troll.

I think you're hilariously stupid.


...Still winning. lol.
 
2012-01-19 01:23:28 PM  
"to". Damn those typo gods!
 
2012-01-19 01:24:21 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: Callous: Bullseyed: Callous: The Homer Tax: Bullseyed: So did the student go to the office to pick one up or was he given one?

He went to the office to go pick one up, but when he got there instead of the child picking the book up himself, a teacher gave it to him. Are you even trying here?

Are you seriously splitting that hair?

The difference between a prostitute offering sex and a person requesting sex from a prostitute is pretty large.

I don't see why this is any different. If I say "hey I have Bibles if anyone wants one" that is entirely different than if I say "here take this Bible".

I'm sorry that most posters here lack the linguistic knowledge to differentiate between the two.

If the kid walks into the office and requests the book it doesn't matter who lifted it out of the box. Now if the child walks into the office and they are handing them one without the request you would be right, but that's not the case.

Let's not forget that half of this issue is that they didn't allow the Wiccan woman to distribute her literature like they allowed the Gideon's, forcefulness of the distribution is irrelevant legally speaking so much as they were playing religious favorites.


I'm aware but for some reason I feel that somehow I will actually make progress with Bullseyed and we can move on to the point you just made. Babby steps.

I might just be feeling a little too hopeful after the buffalo chicken pizza and beer the boss bought for lunch today.

/yes my boss bought us pizza and beer for lunch.
//I love my job
///today anyway
 
2012-01-19 01:25:19 PM  

Leeds: Which of the three Christian gods do the fabled monotheistic Christians choose as their god?


Why, Curly, of course.

But if you're asking seriously, then God the creator of the universe.
 
2012-01-19 01:26:05 PM  

glassbottomboatcaptain: Bullseyed: The amusing part is how the left and the media today illustrate that process as a power grab meant to control the people.

Actually in most cases we're not trying to illustrate a power grab, we're trying to illustrate that these things you believe in are complete and utter bullshiat, in the hopes that maybe you'll stop trying to run a country, and a legal system, based on things that are make believe.


I am reminded of that global warming cartoon where the one politician says "What if we make the world a better place for no reason!"

God isn't real and we gave all that money and food to the poor. Damn.
 
2012-01-19 01:26:15 PM  

Bullseyed: Cheeseburger: Leeds:

Why do you pretend that Christians are monotheists. They worship two gods too many to be monotheists.

Just FYI, there are Christians who don't believe in a triune God. And your characterization is incorrect anyway: It's ONE God; three, um, aspects.

If you are not a monotheist you are not Christian.

Just like how if you have voted Democrat you are not Catholic.


I have to call you out on that one. Christians worship 3 gods. Would you consider a person to be a Christian even if they didn't believe that Jesus was magic? Of course not. You have to worship all three Christian gods to be a Christian.

The number 3 is not the number 1. Please try to keep up with this conversation.
 
2012-01-19 01:29:00 PM  

glassbottomboatcaptain: Bullseyed: Anyway, ask a cop if there is a difference between soliciting sex and being solicited for sex. (Hint: there is and it will probably result in jail time if you try it out)

So if I grasp your analogy properly, in the school situation they aren't 'soliciting' students to read the Bible, they're just making it available and the students who are interested are 'soliciting' them for the bibles?

So then, by your analogy a hooker would not incur the same penalties if she simply setup a 'BJs for $5' stand rather than directly offering sex for money? Or vice versa, a John could instead setup a 'I will give you $5 for a BJ' stand instead of approaching the hooker?

And likewise, if I setup a website with downloadable copies of movies that are currently in theaters, I certainly won't get fined or arrested for distributing copyrighted material, right? Because I'm not 'distributing' them, I'm just making them available for interested parties.

Under the law, if you make printed material available, distribution occurs the moment someone takes it. Give it up. The school was distributing bibles.


So municipal libraries should never contain religious texts because they are funded by the state?

The question is not if they are making it available. It's if they are playing favorites which it appears may be the case here.
 
2012-01-19 01:29:18 PM  

Leeds: I have to call you out on that one. Christians worship 3 gods. Would you consider a person to be a Christian even if they didn't believe that Jesus was magic? Of course not. You have to worship all three Christian gods to be a Christian.

The number 3 is not the number 1. Please try to keep up with this conversation.


I honestly don't get the "father" and "holy ghost" distinction, though. How are the two different?
 
2012-01-19 01:29:24 PM  

Bullseyed: I don't see why this is any different. If I say "hey I have Bibles if anyone wants one" that is entirely different than if I say "here take this Bible".

I'm sorry that most posters here lack the linguistic knowledge to differentiate between the two.


So to clarify, you're trying to make sure we understand that there is a linguistic difference between saying 'hey I have bibles if anyone wants one' and saying 'hey, do you want this bible, which I currently have?'

Because I'm pretty sure that linguistically, they are the same, only slightly restructured.

Legally, material is being offered and the choice is upon the receiver, if they choose to receive what is being offered. Whether the 2nd is handed the material, or has to reach out and pick up the material, is irrelevant.

I see where you're trying desperately to go with this, but you're simply on the wrong track, you're having a slight mental lapse, and assuming everyone else is having the lapse.
 
2012-01-19 01:33:12 PM  

Leeds: Christians worship 3 gods


Once again, no they don't. The majority worship ONE God having THREE aspects. Is that really that hard to comprehend?
 
2012-01-19 01:36:10 PM  

Bloody William: Leeds: I have to call you out on that one. Christians worship 3 gods. Would you consider a person to be a Christian even if they didn't believe that Jesus was magic? Of course not. You have to worship all three Christian gods to be a Christian.

The number 3 is not the number 1. Please try to keep up with this conversation.

I honestly don't get the "father" and "holy ghost" distinction, though. How are the two different?


I am led to believe that the Holy Spirit is god's power (read that as wrath). It's sort of like his temper. When god is happy, the holy spirit is off doing gardening or something. But when god is pissed off, he sends his spirit out to murder innocent people on his behalf.

More reading if you're interested:
Zechariah 4:6
Micah 3:8
 
2012-01-19 01:39:32 PM  

Callous: So municipal libraries should never contain religious texts because they are funded by the state?

The question is not if they are making it available. It's if they are playing favorites which it appears may be the case here


I'm not arguing either of those points, I was simply arguing the hair Bullseyed was splitting that merely offering the books in a 'come take one if you want one' fashion isn't distribution, and it technically is.

The Library can and should carry all religious texts, the point I'm simply trying to make to bullseyed, is that when you go into a library, peruse a bunch of books, pick one out and take it home, distribution of material has occurred, from the library to you. In the legal sense.

He said the school wasn't distributing the bibles, and they were. The one and only point I'm trying to drive home.
 
2012-01-19 01:41:24 PM  

Cheeseburger: Leeds: Christians worship 3 gods

Once again, no they don't. The majority worship ONE God having THREE aspects. Is that really that hard to comprehend?


Then Jesus sure had a lot of arguments with himself. Is it your contention that Jesus was schizophrenic?

Remember, it was 300 years after Jesus died when the concept of a trinity was first invented. Up until then Christians were monotheists.

But in 325AD when the council of Nicea voted to make Christianity a polytheist religion they slaughtered the monotheistic Christians and declared monotheism to be blasphemy.
 
2012-01-19 01:49:04 PM  
Oh! I was just reminded of something else:

I was in a Barns & Noble one day, when I came across a couple Bibles in the nonfiction section. I loudly proclaimed 'Oh! Someone misplaced these!' and moved them to the 'fiction by author' section, muttering to myself about which author I should file it under, finally settling on 'J' for 'King James'

/not nearly that much of an asshole anymore, though I was pleased with my cleverness at the time
//young people...
 
2012-01-19 01:51:22 PM  
muttering to myself about which author I should file it under, finally settling on 'J' for 'King James'

Duh

It goes under F for first, middle name The.

Except in scottish libraries where it stands for fifth.
 
2012-01-19 01:53:26 PM  

Leeds: Then Jesus sure had a lot of arguments with himself. Is it your contention that Jesus was schizophrenic?


I personally don't believe in a triune God. But I understand the concept of one, and how a God having three aspects might behave. It's really not that complex: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. I'm not an apologist for that particular brand of Christianity, though, so as I'm not getting through to you, I'll leave it for someone else to explain it better than I.
 
2012-01-19 01:58:39 PM  

Bullseyed: I am reminded of that global warming cartoon where the one politician says "What if we make the world a better place for no reason!"

God isn't real and we gave all that money and food to the poor. Damn.



I wasn't referring to the 'giving to the poor' thing. I was referring more to the desire to legislate what consenting adults do in the privacy of their bedroom, legislating birth control, making a bunch of hindus, jews etc have to sit and listen to a christian prayer at the start of every school day, and the bevy of other things the bible belt insist should be law on the basis of this being a 'christian founded country' despite it clearly being founded by extremely vocal atheists.

Also, to be clear, I don't disbelieve in God, I just disbelieve in thousand year old tomes written by monkeys telling me all about God.

Those fools knew exactly as much as I know about God's true nature. Jack squat. I just don't have the arrogance to take it upon myself to speak for him, write things down that sound like cool things he would say, and then tell a bunch of other fools that God told me to tell you all this shiat was dictated from him, to me, over lunch, and if you don't follow it (and give me a one time tax deductible charitable donation) you, and everyone you love, is going to be tortured forever by some dude who apparently can do the same job for eternity and never get sick of it.
 
2012-01-19 01:59:53 PM  
Leeds:

See if this helps: You are comprised of a subconscious mind, a conscious mind and a physical body. Are you one person, or three?
 
2012-01-19 02:01:16 PM  

Cheeseburger: Leeds: Then Jesus sure had a lot of arguments with himself. Is it your contention that Jesus was schizophrenic?

I personally don't believe in a triune God. But I understand the concept of one, and how a God having three aspects might behave. It's really not that complex: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. I'm not an apologist for that particular brand of Christianity, though, so as I'm not getting through to you, I'll leave it for someone else to explain it better than I.


I understand your frustration, these polytheists that call themselves "christians" have been trying to explain the concept amongst themselves for 1700 years now and they still can't explain it. Christian "scholars" all agree that it is simply a "mystery" that they can claim to be monotheists and yet worship 3 gods.
 
2012-01-19 02:03:26 PM  

Cheeseburger: Leeds:

See if this helps: You are comprised of a subconscious mind, a conscious mind and a physical body. Are you one person, or three?


I am a collection of cells of a common (single cell) origin.
 
2012-01-19 02:05:21 PM  
Well it looks like somebody in this thread may have voted all of their own comments as both 'smart' and 'funny'.

This is why we can't have nice things.
 
2012-01-19 02:07:54 PM  

Wyalt Derp: Well it looks like somebody in this thread may have voted all of their own comments as both 'smart' and 'funny'.

This is why we can't have nice things.


Fark needs to fix the glitch. Farkers shouldn't be able to click on their own comments. And that goes double for asshats like BullsEyes.
 
2012-01-19 02:10:05 PM  
Leeds:

I am a collection of cells of a common (single cell) origin.

You're much more than any reductionist drivel would have you believe.
 
2012-01-19 02:13:53 PM  

Leeds: Wyalt Derp: Well it looks like somebody in this thread may have voted all of their own comments as both 'smart' and 'funny'.

This is why we can't have nice things.

Fark needs to fix the glitch. Farkers shouldn't be able to click on their own comments. And that goes double for asshats like BullsEyes.


Either that, or modify it so that it just tags your post for others to see whether you consider yourself trying to be smart or trying to be funny, but not add it to the voting. I see potential for an entirely new form of Rotsky....
 
2012-01-19 02:16:04 PM  
You are comprised of a subconscious mind, a conscious mind and a physical body. Are you one person, or three?


While I find this to actually be quite an illuminating way to explain the concept of the trinity it also is, unfortunately, Cartesian drivel. (mind body distinction and all that)

As such it's relatively easy to discount.
 
2012-01-19 02:17:54 PM  

Leeds: I am led to believe that the Holy Spirit is god's power (read that as wrath). It's sort of like his temper.


I thought the angels were god's execution squad. From this religious site: Link (new window)

There are many instances of angels serving as warriors of God, not only to protect, but also to destroy when necessary. In 2 Kings, the story is told of the Assyrian army threatening to overtake Jerusalem. An angel of the Lord killed 185,000 Assyrian soldiers in one night. (19:35)
 
2012-01-19 02:23:49 PM  

safeforwork: MissMechante: safeforwork: My half-sister in-law's mom is a pagan living on the TN/NC border. She runs a B&B and gives weddings on her property. She passes out condoms with her place advertised on them. She's *real* popular with the locals, let me tell you...

/got nothin, article just reminded me of her
//usually ends up marrying off the 'freaks and heretics' of the community, by which I mean people who dared get divorced and married again, or the bride and groom aren't uncomfortably close relatives of each other...

send me a link to her place, I would love to send business there. She sounds cool.
/athiest living on the NC/TN border

I apologize if this is against some rule, but I can't see a way of sending a PM:

http://www.safehavenfarm.com/

Her place is *really* nice, and on the lower end in cost for the area... and also about the only spot on Roan Mountain that has any kind of cellular signal :)

Also, her husband looks exactly like Gandalf.

(also, those are some adorable heelers you have there!)


cool, thanks! They are in a great location, not that far from me. We moved here from San Francisco a few years ago. I thought religion would be an issue here with people asking me where I go to church all the time, but it hasn't, not at all. I don't know what the schools are like though (don't care, no kids ever) Except for the couple churchy people that have tried to come up my driveway to hand out flyers (we are on a mile of private road with only a couple other houses, and the driveways are 4WD only), they don't come back after I come down the mountain to see what they are up to with my pack of heelers ; )
 
2012-01-19 02:26:16 PM  

Bullseyed: Why is a "Farking Canuck" trolling American legal issues anyway? The USA isn't a good backup plan for when Canada's socialist policies collapse.


Actually the separation of church and state is a critical issue world wide. We can directly see the damage it causes in countries like Iran.

I personally would not like to see a neighboring country become a theocracy. And, since American trends and ideas often filter into Canada, I certainly would not like to see religious stupidity infiltrate my government.

/besides, arguing with the religious is incredibly fun
/like shooting fish in a barrel
/where the fish don't move
/and there's no water
 
2012-01-19 02:29:30 PM  
and there's no water

In the mental image I always have when that phrase is used there is never any water in the barrel

MIND BLOWN!
 
2012-01-19 02:42:07 PM  

Farking Canuck: Bullseyed: Why is a "Farking Canuck" trolling American legal issues anyway? The USA isn't a good backup plan for when Canada's socialist policies collapse.


Ah, Republican Kool-Aid. Sweet and refreshing, if ultimately devoid of redeeming qualities. Good for a quick rush, and the diabeetus can be tomorrow's concern.
 
2012-01-19 02:44:15 PM  

Cheeseburger: Leeds: Christians worship 3 gods

Once again, no they don't. The majority worship ONE God having THREE aspects. Is that really that hard to comprehend?


Do you consider Hinduism to be a monotheistic or a polytheistic religion?
 
2012-01-19 02:56:36 PM  
The Homer Tax:

Do you consider Hinduism to be a monotheistic or a polytheistic religion?

I really don't know enough about it to comment on it. When I consulted Wiki, it said that it depends on the beliefs of the individual. Is there a point you wish to make?
 
2012-01-19 02:57:03 PM  

MissMechante: safeforwork: MissMechante: safeforwork: My half-sister in-law's mom is a pagan living on the TN/NC border. She runs a B&B and gives weddings on her property. She passes out condoms with her place advertised on them. She's *real* popular with the locals, let me tell you...

/got nothin, article just reminded me of her
//usually ends up marrying off the 'freaks and heretics' of the community, by which I mean people who dared get divorced and married again, or the bride and groom aren't uncomfortably close relatives of each other...

send me a link to her place, I would love to send business there. She sounds cool.
/athiest living on the NC/TN border

I apologize if this is against some rule, but I can't see a way of sending a PM:

http://www.safehavenfarm.com/

Her place is *really* nice, and on the lower end in cost for the area... and also about the only spot on Roan Mountain that has any kind of cellular signal :)

Also, her husband looks exactly like Gandalf.

(also, those are some adorable heelers you have there!)

cool, thanks! They are in a great location, not that far from me. We moved here from San Francisco a few years ago. I thought religion would be an issue here with people asking me where I go to church all the time, but it hasn't, not at all. I don't know what the schools are like though (don't care, no kids ever) Except for the couple churchy people that have tried to come up my driveway to hand out flyers (we are on a mile of private road with only a couple other houses, and the driveways are 4WD only), they don't come back after I come down the mountain to see what they are up to with my pack of heelers ; )


Ha - they also moved there from California (not sure what area), but quite a few years ago. They really don't have too many problems with the people in the area either... only with a couple neighbors (though they've been in a kind of truce for a while) - most people just started ignoring them when it was plain they weren't 'normal folk'. Sis-in-law was grown and out by the time they moved, so no idea on the schools there either.

I'm not sure if you should tell her who sent you though - there's some bad blood between she and my hubby's dad. I get along with her fine and think she's a pretty cool lady but hubby is iffy with her XD
 
2012-01-19 03:03:33 PM  

dustygrimp: Bullseyed: You can't allow people to make up their own religions and be afforded the same benefits as real religions.

Christianity is made up too. Just made up a lot longer ago.


You can't allow people to make up superstitions and be afforded the same benefits as, say, "Step on a crack, break you mother's back."
 
2012-01-19 03:05:03 PM  

ExperianScaresCthulhu: Bullseyed: o5iiawah: The actions by the school fail the 3-pronged Lemon vs Kurtzman test on 2 fronts.

While the bibles in the front office dont display excessive preference, it has clearly excluded another religion from distributing its texts. Also, the distribution of bibles doesn't fill any secular purpose. I predict the fist of courts coming soon.

Is this particular woman's coven registered as a religion? Don't you have to establish a not-for-profit, a place of worship, a roster of followers and a bunch of other stuff to be declared a religion in terms of tax purposes?

Interesting questions.


Not really, she was not filing a tax return or seeking donations. Wicca is an officially recognised religion and is even recognised by the military as an option for a recruit.
 
2012-01-19 03:11:05 PM  
Re-reading the article I am left with one main thought- the school wasted what should have been a great teaching moment.

I don't think that having a box of bibles lying around for people to take is a bad idea, in fact it sounds downright generous.

But when they were donated books that taught a different religion, they decided that they would prefer to stop allowing any literature to be handed out, lest their students accidentally learn something from them.

What a wasted opportunity. Why the heck didn't the school simply say "thanks" and dump the books in the same "take one" basket that the other books were in?

Christian intolerance is a blight on our nation.
 
2012-01-19 03:11:45 PM  

Bullseyed: Why is a "Farking Canuck" trolling American legal issues anyway? The USA isn't a good backup plan for when Canada's socialist policies collapse.


I think that Bullseyed is a troll and that he won this thread.

+1 internets to you Bullseyed you have trolled well.

If by some outside chance you are not a troll you might want to consult a mental health professional.
 
2012-01-19 03:14:13 PM  

glassbottomboatcaptain: Callous: So municipal libraries should never contain religious texts because they are funded by the state?

The question is not if they are making it available. It's if they are playing favorites which it appears may be the case here

I'm not arguing either of those points, I was simply arguing the hair Bullseyed was splitting that merely offering the books in a 'come take one if you want one' fashion isn't distribution, and it technically is.

The Library can and should carry all religious texts, the point I'm simply trying to make to bullseyed, is that when you go into a library, peruse a bunch of books, pick one out and take it home, distribution of material has occurred, from the library to you. In the legal sense.

He said the school wasn't distributing the bibles, and they were. The one and only point I'm trying to drive home.


Okay, so it appears we have exactly the same viewpoint.

However I would point out that while legally both are distribution, morally as long as the school didn't spend taxpayer dollars on them I have no problem with them making them available to students. Issuing a copy to students I would have a problem with but simply saying, "Hey we have free copies of XYZ available in the office if you would like to come down and get one" I see no problem with morally. Again assuming they don't play favorites. If the Church of Satan wants to leave copies of their bible the school has to accept them. Accept them all or reject them all.
 
2012-01-19 03:14:57 PM  

Tigger: If you believe I am in fact a troll like other claim, then that is the point. And you watching all day means I am winning.


I don't think you're a troll.

I think you're hilariously stupid.


I would disagree; my money is on him being a troll. His diction and grammar are a little too clean for your average mouth-breather, and he has enough working knowledge of the subjects at hand to misinterpret or misrepresent them without going off into full retard mode. Just look at the masterful way he has ignored any serious challenge to his position to respond only to those comments that he can easily twist to his own ends, and how he deftly weaves logical fallacies and ad hominem attacks into his rebuttals without tipping his hand completely to distract people. It's not the best trolling I've ever seen, but it some of the best I've seen in a long while.

Bullseyed, you magnificent bastard, thank you for providing some entertaining reading today.
 
2012-01-19 03:23:52 PM  

Leeds: Fark needs to fix the glitch. Farkers shouldn't be able to click on their own comments.


Or if that's too hard to code, make it so posts require a minimum of 2 votes in order to show up on the 'smart or 'funny' pages.
 
2012-01-19 03:47:41 PM  

Bullseyed: Civil Discourse: Bullseyed: Farking Canuck: Bullseyed: The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

And when someone wanted to make a non-christian text 'available for pick-up' they changed the rules.

This shows that their policy to allow any donated books was a sham ... they only ever intended to allow christian books to be 'picked up' which is explicit endorsement of a single religion by a government facility. Which is against the law.

Your 'but-but-but it was only allowed for pick-up' excuse is as pathetic as the people who claimed they would allow any religious book but turned out to be liars.

You can't allow people to make up their own religions and be afforded the same benefits as real religions.

We can, and do, allow this all of the time. The recognition is limited in some instances, but only where there is a compelling reason to do so. I feel hard pressed to find a particularly compelling reason in this instance why the 'wiccans'* should be denied equal protection.

*Let us be clear, I'm not a religious guy, and I knew a lot of fake lesbian/wiccan types in grade school, and I found them obnoxious.

Important to note that there is no indication that this woman is a wiccan. She specifically identifies as a witch rather than a wiccan, and is trying to distribute her own pagan spell book rather than the book of wicca.

If she was part of an organized religion like wicca, she would have a more solid position. Essentially she made up her own religion and is demanding to be recognized as equal to real religions.


that's it you on the bad list.
 
2012-01-19 03:53:45 PM  

Egoy3k: Bullseyed: How is a spellbook comparable to a book of stories to begin with?

That is like comparing the Anarchist's Cookbook to a Biography of Tim McVeigh.

Only if you think that the spells contained in that book will actually work......

You don't actually think that do you?


You don't actually think your prayers to your God will actually work, do you?
 
2012-01-19 03:57:06 PM  

Callous: Crotchrocket Slim: Callous: Bullseyed: Callous: The Homer Tax: Bullseyed: So did the student go to the office to pick one up or was he given one?

He went to the office to go pick one up, but when he got there instead of the child picking the book up himself, a teacher gave it to him. Are you even trying here?

Are you seriously splitting that hair?

The difference between a prostitute offering sex and a person requesting sex from a prostitute is pretty large.

I don't see why this is any different. If I say "hey I have Bibles if anyone wants one" that is entirely different than if I say "here take this Bible".

I'm sorry that most posters here lack the linguistic knowledge to differentiate between the two.

If the kid walks into the office and requests the book it doesn't matter who lifted it out of the box. Now if the child walks into the office and they are handing them one without the request you would be right, but that's not the case.

Let's not forget that half of this issue is that they didn't allow the Wiccan woman to distribute her literature like they allowed the Gideon's, forcefulness of the distribution is irrelevant legally speaking so much as they were playing religious favorites.

I'm aware but for some reason I feel that somehow I will actually make progress with Bullseyed and we can move on to the point you just made. Babby steps.

I might just be feeling a little too hopeful after the buffalo chicken pizza and beer the boss bought for lunch today.

/yes my boss bought us pizza and beer for lunch.
//I love my job
///today anyway


I wouldn't bother, considering he considers the government ruling on the legality of a religious practice is somehow ruling on the legal status of the religion itself.

Voodoo is a legally protected religion, but engaging in human sacrifice- one practice some voodoo traditions engage in- is still illegal. Note that despite essentially being a "made up" religion cobbled together from several disparate traditions and despite anthropologists being able to trace its creation back to a few generations, the government can't rule that it isn't a religion.
 
2012-01-19 03:57:24 PM  
Just when I think there are a bunch of lunatics on FARK I read comments from one story on foxnews.com What's beyond maximum trolling?

I think we know where Bevets' people come from...
 
2012-01-19 04:08:56 PM  
WHAR PITCHERS OF NEKKID WITCHY WOMENS??? WHAR???!???

/Pagan for the win
 
2012-01-19 04:37:01 PM  

IronButterfly: WHAR PITCHERS OF NEKKID WITCHY WOMENS??? WHAR???!???

/Pagan for the win


Nekkid xians would be ok, too.
 
2012-01-19 04:53:46 PM  

Civil Discourse: Oxygen_Thief: /side note this quote from scalia always makes me chuckle.

"Like some ghoul in a late night horror movie that repeatedly sits up in its grave and shuffles abroad, after being repeatedly killed and buried, Lemon stalks our Establishment Clause jurisprudence once again, frightening the little children and school attorneys of Center Moriches Union Free School District."

Say what you like about his jurisprudence, but Scalia is far and away the most entertaining of the justices.


I agree. I disagree with him all the time, but I do respect his sarcasm.
 
2012-01-19 05:14:48 PM  

Bullseyed: The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.

"Schools should not be giving out one religion's materials and not others," Strivelli said.


The school did not give out religious materials. They allowed them to be picked up.

Is the school giving out children when they allow parents to pick their kids up?


Don't be obtuse. You're arguing semantics, and you're doing it extremely poorly. Giving out and picking up are not mutually exclusive.

Many children go pick up candy from their neighbors on Halloween. Their neighbors just give out this candy all night.
 
2012-01-19 06:02:37 PM  

Bullseyed: You can't allow people to make up their own religions and be afforded the same benefits as real religions.


Um, all religions are made up.
 
2012-01-19 06:54:23 PM  

PostApocalypticTribe: part of the problem:
Is it just me or did the mom think she was in Asheville instead of the county?
In Asheville I'm pretty sure handing out spellbooks is mandatory in the schools. In the rest of the county....

For the rest of you, Asheville is the county seat of the county this is taking place in. Its the town Rolling Stone called "Freaktown USA."

At least once a month I turn to my husband and say, "You know, we should move to Asheville." Had it happened there I'm pretty sure there would have been a general assembly to sort out the problem followed by a drum circle and bonfire to celebrate unity.

/Pass the mead!


Im getting a kick out of your posts, mostly because Im moving to the upstate SC area in 3 weeks...
 
2012-01-19 07:21:52 PM  

Sultan Of Herf: PostApocalypticTribe: part of the problem:
Is it just me or did the mom think she was in Asheville instead of the county?
In Asheville I'm pretty sure handing out spellbooks is mandatory in the schools. In the rest of the county....

For the rest of you, Asheville is the county seat of the county this is taking place in. Its the town Rolling Stone called "Freaktown USA."

At least once a month I turn to my husband and say, "You know, we should move to Asheville." Had it happened there I'm pretty sure there would have been a general assembly to sort out the problem followed by a drum circle and bonfire to celebrate unity.

/Pass the mead!

Im getting a kick out of your posts, mostly because Im moving to the upstate SC area in 3 weeks...


If youre going to Greenville check out the Handlebar, great local music venue. If youre going to Spartanburg....just dont. Really. :)
 
2012-01-19 07:36:35 PM  
JustFish:

Um, all religions are made up.

o·pin·ion /əˈpɪnyən/ Show Spelled[uh-pin-yuhn] Show IPA
noun
1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
3. the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second medical opinion.
4. Law . the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case.
5. a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.: to forfeit someone's good opinion.
 
2012-01-19 07:37:17 PM  

thismomentinblackhistory: "Many Christians have stood up and said they agree with me too," Strivelli said. "Because, as much as they may like the Bible, they don't want Jehovah's Witnesses coming in with Watch Tower (magazines) or Catholics coming in and having them pray the Rosary."

When I read things like this I feel like I've stumbled into a dark room full of people playing Dungeons & Dragons.


Actually, unlike the extreme religious types, we're rather open.

/Runs Pathfinder.
 
2012-01-19 07:38:06 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Teknowaffle: Paganism and wiccanism. The hipsters of religion.

Because religion was cooler before that whole Jesus guy.

Wicca only dates back to the 1950's and the neopaganism that most of these witchcraft types practice is even younger than that.

/just sayin'


I wish more people would study this. Next time youre trying to explain simple recent history to someone who smells like patchouli oil, mention this guy.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otter_G%27Zell

Let the good times roll.
 
2012-01-19 07:45:01 PM  
My question is why aren't kids putting down the fairy tales and learning themselves some math, science, grammar, and history.
 
2012-01-19 08:04:41 PM  
I demand fig tree reparations!
 
2012-01-19 08:09:44 PM  
Someone dropped off a bunch of bibles.

Whelp, better start handing them out.
 
2012-01-19 08:22:04 PM  
Came for jokes about how the school was probably doing the students a service if the books were by that one author who, from what I hear, is more or less the Nickelback of Paganism.

Leaving slightly disappointed.
 
2012-01-19 10:10:33 PM  

Strix occidentalis: Came for jokes about how the school was probably doing the students a service if the books were by that one author who, from what I hear, is more or less the Nickelback of Paganism.

Leaving slightly disappointed.


What author are you talking about?
 
2012-01-19 10:20:29 PM  

Mock26: Strix occidentalis: Came for jokes about how the school was probably doing the students a service if the books were by that one author who, from what I hear, is more or less the Nickelback of Paganism.

Leaving slightly disappointed.

What author are you talking about?


Silver Ravenwolf or Raven Silverwolf or something like that.
 
2012-01-19 11:17:26 PM  

Bullseyed: Monotheism (from Greek μόνος, monos, "single", and θεός, theos, "god") is the belief in the existence of one god or in the oneness of God. Monotheism is traditionally characteristic of Judaism, Christianity, Islam


...aside from that whole doctrine of the Trinitarian nature of god that's predominant in most of the larger denominations of Christianity.

Bullseyed: Anyway, ask a cop if there is a difference between soliciting sex and being solicited for sex. (Hint: there is and it will probably result in jail time if you try it out)


If there's money involved. However, you may be in additional trouble if you solicit from someone well below the state's age of consent.

Bullseyed: Aren't muslim kids afforded space in school to say their daily/hourly/whatever prayers?


Provided the child does so on their own initiative, it counts as "reasonable accommodation".

It might be an interesting legal case for a child whose parents have them in such a program tells the teacher "I don't want to go; I'd rather stay and study". What should the teacher do? and what obligation to they have to telling the parents if the kid would rather they didn't?

Bullseyed: If controlling the people was the goal, the politicians could have simply put themselves in positions of power in those pagan traditions and assumed control.


Not while maintaining their position in their existing power structure. And taking a position at the top of an existing structure is tricky.

Bullseyed: If you are not a monotheist you are not Christian.


Merely a significantly heretical one.

Leeds: Christian intolerance is a blight on our nation.


Eh; it does help keeping out some even more egregious forms of stupid, but I keep thinking there has to be a better way....
 
2012-01-20 12:08:19 AM  
"We'd do the same for any donated holy book," would be a fine excuse, if only it weren't a FLAMING LIE.
 
2012-01-20 12:25:37 AM  
ice 2 is a good one, but don't count on it to help with skeletons or the undead!
 
2012-01-20 01:06:04 AM  

Dinki: Lsherm: Ever notice most Wiccans are emo attention-whores?

I really hope you aren't claiming this woman is an attention whore. Because every time someone makes a legitimate complaint about the intrusion of religion into the state sponsored space, someone calls them attention whores.


I am. Wiccans are attention-whores. This woman is no exception. She's only doing this to drive attention to herself.
 
2012-01-20 02:49:55 AM  

Lsherm: Dinki: Lsherm: Ever notice most Wiccans are emo attention-whores?

I really hope you aren't claiming this woman is an attention whore. Because every time someone makes a legitimate complaint about the intrusion of religion into the state sponsored space, someone calls them attention whores.

I am. Wiccans are attention-whores. This woman is no exception. She's only doing this to drive attention to herself.


Like the Gideons putting bibles in a school?
 
2012-01-20 03:00:32 AM  
What about a cookbook about Pastafarianism? Holy and delicious!
 
2012-01-20 03:00:47 AM  

IronButterfly: Pagan for the win

Here you go...

NSFW
Still_NSFW
Again_NSFW
madamepickwickartblog.com
/it's hard to find pics of fairly decent naked witches
 
2012-01-20 09:39:47 AM  
There are so many threads where christians are trying to defend having their religion in government and those opposed to it say something like "you wouldn't be fine with this if it was the koran". Well here is a case where somebody stepped up and did make the christians put their money where their mouth are ... and they came out as expected: hypocrites.

//

Well if the churches want to become part of the educational system or a political group they should be paying taxes just like everyone else. Otherwise, keep it in the churches and STFU..... This country was founded on the belief of there being freedom of religion, not just one religion but all religions. Regardless of how ridiculous they are. Right Mitt? : )
 
2012-01-20 10:39:04 AM  

MerlinX: This country was founded on the belief of there being freedom of religion, not just one religion but all religions.


And even freedom of having "no religion".
 
2012-01-20 11:35:06 AM  

macadamnut: "America runs a grand, noble experiment in religious diversity..."


Since when do members of a religious community "experiment" with stuff? Aren't believers supposed to pray bad situations away and hope they disappear?

Sorry, believers! Experimenting belongs to scientists, can't have, not yours!
 
2012-01-20 04:04:04 PM  
Unbiased?

boxes of the sacred books
 
2012-01-20 10:44:41 PM  

Bullseyed: I'm not saying that at some point there was not a concerted effort to convert pagan traditions into Christian ones, but most people were exceedingly unintelligent back then.

The amusing part is how the left and the media today illustrate that process as a power grab meant to control the people. If controlling the people was the goal, the politicians could have simply put themselves in positions of power in those pagan traditions and assumed control.


Not really. Most Americans don't understand the concept of "Divine Right of Kings" and the importance that it played back then. Under the pagan traditions, a king or ruler only served in that capacity for as long as the "gods favored him". Therefore, if he was assassinated, it was presumed that he had lost the favor of the gods. The assassin (usually) could then assume leadership, since the gods had obviously favored him in his assassination attempt.

Under the Christian traditions, God has assigned everybody a place. The prince was born the son of a king because that's where God wanted him to be. Slaves were born into slavery because that's where God wanted them to be. And any attempt to usurp your rightful place in the social order was a demonstration of a lack of faith in God. As a direct result of the spread of Christianity, political leadership became much safer and more stable.
 
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