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(Short List)   George Lucas wants us to blame him, not Spielberg, for "that fridge scene" in Indy 4. DEAL   (shortlist.com) divider line 164
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4591 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 19 Jan 2012 at 11:36 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-01-19 07:41:48 AM
Like it matters. It was a movie. Big balls rolling down corridors is suddenly normal, as is all the other crazy things that happen in escapist movies. Lighten up peeps
 
2012-01-19 09:04:00 AM
He claimed that if the fridge was lead-lined, if Indy didn't break his neck and he was able to open the door, he would survive. "The odds of surviving that refrigerator - from a lot of scientists - are about 50-50," Lucas said.

I would like to meet these scientists of whom you speak, because I know "a lot of scientists" too and all of us know it was beyond farking stupid.
 
2012-01-19 09:15:11 AM
George, I'm pretty sure they've been blaming you even without your permission.

I've seen that movie twice and can't ever seem to remember one thing about it. And not in that Fark "my mind blocked out the travesty" meme way. The only thing I seem to remember is the pyramid at the end.
 
2012-01-19 09:23:40 AM
I read the interviews in the run-up to the movie. Spielberg talked about story and trying to pace the movie like the other ones. Harrison Ford talked about the challenges of playing a physical role and trying to extrapolate the Indy of the 30s into the 50s. Lucas talked about finally having the technology to do all of the effects that would make everything so awesome he was unable to articulate his excitement.

In the Vanity Fair interviews, Spielberg said he had a script he was happy with and that all of the actors felt was a good Indiana Jones story. And two weeks after that in the Entertainment interview Lucas said he had just started rewriting the script so that it would have more flash and bang.

Absolutely I blame Lucas for every last sucky moment in that entire film.
 
2012-01-19 10:03:18 AM
I thought Darabont's script had the fridge scene?
 
2012-01-19 10:03:35 AM
Sorry but the director is responsible for what is put on the screen. When the Paramount logo morphed into a CGI gopher hill (which was my "Oh, Goddammit" moment) I knew we were in trouble. Spielberg is the director and always has creative control over his films. He didn't have to put in the CGI gophers, he didn't have to have Shia Le Beowulf swinging with CGI monkeys and even if he's Lucas' biatch to the point of having to keep the fridge scene in, he could have shot it in a way that could have made it a little more plausible. Whether it was Lucas' idea or not, Spielberg is responsible for it.

You have to admit though, this is a pretty cool shot.

videogum.com
 
2012-01-19 10:06:26 AM

brigid_fitch: I thought Darabont's script had the fridge scene?


It was. All Lucas did was write the story. And he was a producer, which could mean anything. Whenever people say that Empire was the best Star Wars film it's because all Lucas was allowed to do was write the story and produce it. When people cry about Indy 4, it's all Lucas' fault because he wrote the story and was a producer on it.
 
2012-01-19 10:20:11 AM

Mugato: brigid_fitch: I thought Darabont's script had the fridge scene?

It was. All Lucas did was write the story. And he was a producer, which could mean anything. Whenever people say that Empire was the best Star Wars film it's because all Lucas was allowed to do was write the story and produce it. When people cry about Indy 4, it's all Lucas' fault because he wrote the story and was a producer on it.


In early interviews, Lucas was pretty clear that Lawrence Kasdan and someone named Brackett wrote most of the Empire Strikes Back based on notes he gave them outlining the major things he wanted to have happen.
 
2012-01-19 10:32:43 AM

colinspooky: Like it matters. It was a movie. Big balls rolling down corridors is suddenly normal, as is all the other crazy things that happen in escapist movies. Lighten up peeps


Exactly. Nazis melting? A pagan priest ripping hearts out of live people and not killing them? Falling from a Ford Trimotor on a liferaft and not shattering your spine? Totally realistic and beyond reproach. But a lead-lined refrigerator being tossed by a nuclear explosion with a guy surviving? Totally bogus! THIS MOVIE SUCKS!
 
2012-01-19 11:02:44 AM

alwaysjaded: George, I'm pretty sure they've been blaming you even without your permission.

I've seen that movie twice and can't ever seem to remember one thing about it. And not in that Fark "my mind blocked out the travesty" meme way. The only thing I seem to remember is the pyramid at the end.


I was more upset at the monkey swinging scene...and the fire army ants that eat people faster than snow melts in a microwave. In theory, a lead lined fridge might protect you from the radiation...not the blast unless it was secured to the ground...instead of, you know...being blown 3 kilometers away. And if he survived the radiation, they still have to find him. I mean, if he gets out and walks to safety, he dies like those in Hiroshima. Basically, what I'm saying is that if he hadn't shot first in Mos Eisley, he would never had been in such a desperate situation to need to do this film.
 
2012-01-19 11:38:38 AM
I don't know why people thought the fridge scene was worse than the monkey/Shia one.

/So-so movie overall.
 
2012-01-19 11:41:23 AM
alwaysjaded:
I've seen that movie twice


Good Lord. Are you a masochist?
 
2012-01-19 11:42:21 AM
What about the rest of the film?

Ehh.
I expect over the top in an Indy movie. Just couldn't take Mutt....
 
2012-01-19 11:50:12 AM
Midi-chlorians are a microorganism first mentioned in Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace. They are microscopic life-forms that reside within the cells of all living things and communicate with the Force. They are symbionts with all other living things and without them life could not exist. The Jedi have learned how to listen to and coordinate the midi-chlorians. While every living being thus has a connection to the Force, one must have a high enough concentration of midi-chlorians in one's cells in order to be a Jedi or a Sith.
 
2012-01-19 11:50:35 AM

Virtual Pariah: What about the rest of the film?

Ehh.
I expect over the top in an Indy movie. Just couldn't take Mutt....


This.

The fridge scene never seriously bothered me for the reasons I_C_Weener listed but that character was of zero interest to me, and this was before I jumped on the Shia LaBeouf Hate bandwagon. The Darabont script was all about Indy and Marion. But Lucas rejected that. Probably thought he could kickstart a new Mutt Williams franchise.
 
2012-01-19 11:52:46 AM
It's a movie, people are farking stupid to be still arguing over a movie SCENE.
 
2012-01-19 11:53:15 AM

I_C_Weener: alwaysjaded: George, I'm pretty sure they've been blaming you even without your permission.

I've seen that movie twice and can't ever seem to remember one thing about it. And not in that Fark "my mind blocked out the travesty" meme way. The only thing I seem to remember is the pyramid at the end.

I was more upset at the monkey swinging scene...and the fire army ants that eat people faster than snow melts in a microwave. In theory, a lead lined fridge might protect you from the radiation...not the blast unless it was secured to the ground...instead of, you know...being blown 3 kilometers away. And if he survived the radiation, they still have to find him. I mean, if he gets out and walks to safety, he dies like those in Hiroshima. Basically, what I'm saying is that if he hadn't shot first in Mos Eisley, he would never had been in such a desperate situation to need to do this film.


He drank from the grail, he has a little extra something going for him.
 
2012-01-19 11:54:44 AM
Lucas jumped the shark long before that moment.
 
2012-01-19 11:55:11 AM
Who wants to take credit for the "magnetic gunpowder" scene? Because that's when I gave up on the movie (although I had a bad feeling about it as soon as the Caddyshack gopher appeared).
 
2012-01-19 11:58:30 AM
Bah, I like the fridge scene
 
2012-01-19 12:02:46 PM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: colinspooky: Like it matters. It was a movie. Big balls rolling down corridors is suddenly normal, as is all the other crazy things that happen in escapist movies. Lighten up peeps

Exactly. Nazis melting? A pagan priest ripping hearts out of live people and not killing them? Falling from a Ford Trimotor on a liferaft and not shattering your spine? Totally realistic and beyond reproach. But a lead-lined refrigerator being tossed by a nuclear explosion with a guy surviving? Totally bogus! THIS MOVIE SUCKS!


The fridge nuking scene alone would have not ruined the movie. What ruined the movie was it being a shiatty movie. Every inch of "Indiana Jones and the Most Bullshiat MacGuffin Ever" was an exercise in stretching credulity beyond repair.

The fridge scene was just one of many, many. many idiotic things in that movie. One would be totally fine. Two would be OK. But after the 15th farking time the movie was just insulting.

And personally there are plenty of things in that POS that I disliked a hell of a lot more than the fridge nuke shot.
 
2012-01-19 12:03:05 PM

I_C_Weener: In theory, a lead lined fridge might protect you from the radiation...not the blast unless it was secured to the ground...instead of, you know...being blown 3 kilometers away. And if he survived the radiation, they still have to find him. I mean, if he gets out and walks to safety, he dies like those in Hiroshima.


Not really. The range for lethal doses of ionizing radiation from even a 1 megaton test is actually fairly short ranged: 2.3 kilometers (bit over a mile), and the range where you'd likely get acute radiation sickness (though not immediately lethal) is 2.9 kilometers. Being in a lead-lined fridge would mitigate that.

You'd have to worry about fallout contamination, but that tends to depend on winds. Perhaps the wind was in his favor that day.

The real killer to the idea is that once he got in that fridge, he'd have been locked into it permanently, and suffocated.
 
2012-01-19 12:05:24 PM

colinspooky: Like it matters. It was a movie. Big balls rolling down corridors is suddenly normal, as is all the other crazy things that happen in escapist movies. Lighten up peeps


i81.photobucket.com

And you're pretty ignorant if you think THAT scene was unbelievable if you've ever read ANY of the comics or novels.

i81.photobucket.com
 
2012-01-19 12:07:52 PM

Ivo Shandor: Who wants to take credit for the "magnetic gunpowder" scene? Because that's when I gave up on the movie (although I had a bad feeling about it as soon as the Caddyshack gopher appeared).


i81.photobucket.com
 
2012-01-19 12:12:17 PM
www-deadline-com.vimg.net

/hot, obviously
 
2012-01-19 12:12:47 PM

mongbiohazard: What ruined the movie was it being a shiatty movie.


QFT.
 
2012-01-19 12:14:16 PM
Red Letter Media did a review of crystal skull. Ripped everyone over it.
 
2012-01-19 12:14:30 PM
Was there even such a thing as a lead lined refrigerator? Why would such a thing even exist? There may be something like that for specialized situations but in a normal household? I really don't think so.
 
2012-01-19 12:14:38 PM

Icey_M: Bah, I like the fridge scene


You represent everything that ever has been, and ever will be, wrong with humanity.

/You know who else liked the fridge scene?
 
2012-01-19 12:16:44 PM

Jim from Saint Paul: Midi-chlorians are a microorganism first mentioned in Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace. They are microscopic life-forms that reside within the cells of all living things and communicate with the Force. They are symbionts with all other living things and without them life could not exist. The Jedi have learned how to listen to and coordinate the midi-chlorians. While every living being thus has a connection to the Force, one must have a high enough concentration of midi-chlorians in one's cells in order to be a Jedi or a Sith.


I hate you.
 
2012-01-19 12:19:14 PM
I thought Marion driving the jeep and it catching in the tree was a worse scene personally.
 
2012-01-19 12:20:11 PM
I'm surprised he is actually taking the blame for this and not for Jar-Jar.

/I like to pretend that Episode I never happened.
//I also like to pretend that the 2002 Time Machine and 2004 War of the Worlds remakes never happened as well.
 
2012-01-19 12:27:14 PM
The CGI monkeys, the rapier duel and the CGI ants were worse than the fridge, easily. And you have to blame Spielberg for all of that shiat.

Still, I thought Last Crusade was goofier.
 
2012-01-19 12:27:19 PM

Quiefenburger: [www-deadline-com.vimg.net image 547x427]

/hot, obviously


Hah, that episode was on tv last night.

i love south park.
 
2012-01-19 12:33:59 PM

brigid_fitch: I thought Darabont's script had the fridge scene?


No, it's more complicated that that - there was an awesome script before Darabont's called Indiana Jones and the Saucer Men from Mars by Jeb Stewart - it had a lot of the same stunts and set-pieces, but in different order and overall, a MUCH better story and a MUCH better Indiana Jones character. It did have the nuke/Fridge scene, but it was about half-way through the movie, and instead of the fridge flying through the air, it was Jones finding a cubby hole in a house and pulling the fridge on top of it and the crawling out of the wreckage after the fact.

Darabont took that script, added Marion, removes the new love interest, and basically sets up the story structure that you see in the final film. It was David Koepp who then took Darabont's turd and polished it and made it (somehow) even stupider.

The whole thing... you know, there's a lot of internet short hand biatching and Lucas-Derrangement syndrome, etc, but the story of how the whole Indiana Jones franchise was destroyed by one horrible botched abortion of a movie is a complicated story and blame can't be laid at the feet of any one person. In fact - and I get that this is blasphemy on ye olde interwebs, but ... - I think Lucas is less to blame.

Bottom line (in the blame game, anyway) - for each of the films, Lucas is the "idea" man. Or "idea" "man", if you will. And then a writer turns that into script and then Ford and Spielberg have to approve it and then Spielberg directs. The Saucer Men script was completed in 1997 - it sat around for a LONG time, being "vetoed" by Ford and Spielberg. Darabont was brought in to fix the basic "idea" - and by that, he took a pretty interesting script and dumbed it down, and played to the cheap seats by bringing back Marion and adding buffoonery. All parties vetoed this script, but someone David Koepp managed to beat the script into moronic submission and get approval from all parties.

You could argue that Lucas had a bad "idea" - a flawed premise - Indiana Jones - famed Nazi Fighter of the 30s shouldn't be fighting Space Aliens in the 50s - fair enough. (though to be clear - Stewart's script took place in 1948 or 1949) Personally, I thought it was a clever way to move forward - too many years passed since the last one - Ford was too old to be realistically the same guy he was last time we saw him in 1938 or whenever. And if you've moved forward in time, set the story as such. Likewise, Aliens are just as silly as religious artifacts. That stuff never bothered me. But I can see how some would take issue with the premise and for that, yes, Lucas can be blamed.

In fact - Lucas can be blamed for leaving his name on the finished product. Were I he, I would have used my "veto" card at that point, or walked away from it. Crystal Skull was such a devistatingly bad movie - such a career killer for all-involved, spiritually, morally, creatively - I wouldn't have allowed my name on it.

((I hear people biatch and moan all the time about how the new Star Wars raped their childhoods and how they are so wounded and I think "oh, grow up. It's just a movie." Then I saw Crystal Skull and ... suddenly, I understand their pain.))

But Lucas just came up with the idea and produced it. Ford and Spielberg could have kept vetoing, frankly. And then they both went on to make the wretched thing. Ford sleepwalked his way through - they even made him look old by having him covered in "dust" though the whole movie, frfuggssake. He was no longer cool Indy Jones, but instead a weak patheic dusty old man following Shia LaBouef around a jungle with a naggy old wife.

GOD DAMNIT. GOD DAMNIT. How did that happen? I forgot how mad this abortion makes me. GOD DAMNIT.

GAH. If I ever commit suicide, it'll be because of one of two reasons - either someone put their bare feet on my face or I was forced to see this movie again.

ANYWAY - all the versions of the scripts are on-line these days - the Jeb Stewart, the Frank Darabont, the David Koepp. Not like the old days of knowing someone at Lucasfilm or perusing script merchants in H'wood. Easy-peasy. Go reasearch on your own. There's even other things out there like the Indiana Jones and the Sons of the Desert - an awful script, which is, in fact, the first time Marion shows up with a mystery kid. My understanding was that this one isn't a Lucas "idea" but a spec script that made it through the gates. It pre-dates the Darabont and Koepp drafts, though not sure if it predates Stewart. It has nothing in common with any of the other scripts, save Marion and a bastard child. And it's GOD-AWFUL and difficult to read/follow.
 
2012-01-19 12:34:31 PM
Spielberg was engaged in pure money-makiing mode. Can you blame him? He's old and probably tired. Making crappy movies is just easier.
 
2012-01-19 12:35:41 PM
I never saw the film, and with the giant cgi monkey scene I heard about, and now this I'm glad I didn't.
/and won't
 
2012-01-19 12:38:44 PM
Spielberg was engaged in pure money-makiing mode. Can you blame him? He's old and probably tired. Making crappy movies is just easier.

Part of the problem is their success. If Spielberg had the money to make the Jaws movie he wanted to put onscreen, it would've been half the movie it became.
 
2012-01-19 12:50:38 PM

Andromeda: He claimed that if the fridge was lead-lined, if Indy didn't break his neck and he was able to open the door, he would survive. "The odds of surviving that refrigerator - from a lot of scientists - are about 50-50," Lucas said.

I would like to meet these scientists of whom you speak, because I know "a lot of scientists" too and all of us know it was beyond farking stupid.


I'm wondering if they even did a simulation of what would have happened to that fridge
 
2012-01-19 12:51:12 PM

Mugato: The CGI monkeys, the rapier duel and the CGI ants were worse than the fridge, easily. And you have to blame Spielberg for all of that shiat.

Still, I thought Last Crusade was goofier.


Indy posing as a Scottish interior decorator made me wince harder than anything in KOTCS.

Fridge scene = Impossible, but Indy comes off looking like a badass.
Scottish interior decorator = Indy is a buffoon

And I can now safely feel like I can give Spielberg a pass for KOTCS after seeing Tintin, where he worked with Peter Jacksonm as producer instead of Lucas, and could work with Herge's storylines instead of Lucas'.
 
2012-01-19 12:54:56 PM

loonatic112358: Andromeda: He claimed that if the fridge was lead-lined, if Indy didn't break his neck and he was able to open the door, he would survive. "The odds of surviving that refrigerator - from a lot of scientists - are about 50-50," Lucas said.

I would like to meet these scientists of whom you speak, because I know "a lot of scientists" too and all of us know it was beyond farking stupid.

I'm wondering if they even did a simulation of what would have happened to that fridge


Paging Mythbusters....
 
2012-01-19 12:58:06 PM
I will forgive Lucas when he has himself surgically altered to look like Jar-Jar Binks. Big floppy ears, grotesque tongue, eye enlargement, the works.

Let him have to see his failure every time he sees himself.
 
2012-01-19 12:59:47 PM
The insulting thing wasn't the fridge scene... the insulting thing is Lucas acting like that this was the main problem with the film.
 
2012-01-19 01:08:26 PM
This movie was no worse the Temple of Doom.

They only rip out a guy's heart and have the guy still live to look down at his closing wound.

And a voodoo doll that WORKED.

And Kate Capshaw SCREAMING THE WHOLE TIME.

It at least had Short Round. It had that going for it.
 
2012-01-19 01:12:45 PM
www.shortlist.com

I never before thought to try to imagine what his face would look like without that beard. I'm not sure we would be left with any hint as to where his jaw bone might be.
 
2012-01-19 01:18:02 PM

Jim from Saint Paul: This movie was no worse the Temple of Doom.

They only rip out a guy's heart and have the guy still live to look down at his closing wound.

And a voodoo doll that WORKED.

And Kate Capshaw SCREAMING THE WHOLE TIME.

It at least had Short Round. It had that going for it.


To be fair about the ripping the beating heart out:

A: It was cool
B: Supernatural Abilities are part and parcel of Indy's world

I have no idea whether Voodoo dolls exist in any form in Hindu mythology, but maybe they do, a lot of sympathetic magic stuff crosses cultures. Kate Capshaw was sleeping with the director, and at least she was great for the opening dance number and the scene in the Obi Wan.
 
2012-01-19 01:18:23 PM

gunga galunga: Indy posing as a Scottish interior decorator made me wince harder than anything in KOTCS.


It wasn't just that, it was also Sallah, who was an intelligent if easily startled sidekick (to be fair, that Anubis statue was scary) in Raiders to a bumbling idiot in Last Crusade and Marcus who was a museum curator and Indy's sort of mentor to being a drunken moron. And Indy himself, contrast his reveal in Raiders. Shady Peruvian guy pulls a gun, a shadowy figure snaps that shiat out of his hand with a whip, lighting reveals Indy, bad motherfarker. Temple of Doom, children being whipped to death by big burly Indian guys camera pans up to reveal Indy, really pissed off motherfuicker. Then in Last Crusade he makes a comical face when his dad accidentally opens a secret staircase that Indy falls down.

So Indy 4 may have had its silly moments but at least it didn't ass rape its beloved characters. Marion was kind of goofy I suppose but there was no real reason for her to be the pissed off drunk we saw in Raiders.
 
2012-01-19 01:25:43 PM

Fano: A: It was cool
B: Supernatural Abilities are part and parcel of Indy's world


I agree, even though I'm arguing that Indy 4 wasn't as terrible as people say, there's a difference in suspension of disbelief between the natural and supernatural. Which is why people don't have a problem with the fact that God will kick your ass if you look into the Ark but have an issue with Indy hanging onto a U-boat for however long it took to get to whatever island they were going to.

And of course a lounge singer chick is going to be a whiny coont if you drag her into some hellish Kali worshiping temple. I know I would be and I can't even sing.
 
2012-01-19 01:27:03 PM

Fano: Jim from Saint Paul: This movie was no worse the Temple of Doom.

They only rip out a guy's heart and have the guy still live to look down at his closing wound.

And a voodoo doll that WORKED.

And Kate Capshaw SCREAMING THE WHOLE TIME.

It at least had Short Round. It had that going for it.

To be fair about the ripping the beating heart out:

A: It was cool
B: Supernatural Abilities are part and parcel of Indy's world

I have no idea whether Voodoo dolls exist in any form in Hindu mythology, but maybe they do, a lot of sympathetic magic stuff crosses cultures. Kate Capshaw was sleeping with the director, and at least she was great for the opening dance number and the scene in the Obi Wan.


Yes, the opening song was good too. Forgot about that.

So magic is okay, but by god DO NOT FARK WITH PHYSICS!!! ?

Am I catching the drift?
 
2012-01-19 01:28:27 PM

Mugato: Fano: A: It was cool
B: Supernatural Abilities are part and parcel of Indy's world

I agree, even though I'm arguing that Indy 4 wasn't as terrible as people say, there's a difference in suspension of disbelief between the natural and supernatural. Which is why people don't have a problem with the fact that God will kick your ass if you look into the Ark but have an issue with Indy hanging onto a U-boat for however long it took to get to whatever island they were going to.

And of course a lounge singer chick is going to be a whiny coont if you drag her into some hellish Kali worshiping temple. I know I would be and I can't even sing.


Making you a lounge chick?
 
2012-01-19 01:37:51 PM

Mugato: gunga galunga: Indy posing as a Scottish interior decorator made me wince harder than anything in KOTCS.

It wasn't just that, it was also Sallah, who was an intelligent if easily startled sidekick (to be fair, that Anubis statue was scary) in Raiders to a bumbling idiot in Last Crusade and Marcus who was a museum curator and Indy's sort of mentor to being a drunken moron. And Indy himself, contrast his reveal in Raiders. Shady Peruvian guy pulls a gun, a shadowy figure snaps that shiat out of his hand with a whip, lighting reveals Indy, bad motherfarker. Temple of Doom, children being whipped to death by big burly Indian guys camera pans up to reveal Indy, really pissed off motherfuicker. Then in Last Crusade he makes a comical face when his dad accidentally opens a secret staircase that Indy falls down.

So Indy 4 may have had its silly moments but at least it didn't ass rape its beloved characters. Marion was kind of goofy I suppose but there was no real reason for her to be the pissed off drunk we saw in Raiders.


Sallah and Marcus' Flanderization was disappointing. Sallah was a jolly man, but not a complete joke. I guess critics must have told them that Temple of Doom was "too dark" and so they went with the comedy that I think took some of the fun out of Last Crusade and Crystal Skull. The humor seems more suited for LEGO Indy. In the first two, the humorous moments were a quick relief of the tension, not a complete definition of a character as a clumsy buffoon.

Hmm, come to think of it, the humor in Raiders?
1.Just shooting a swordsman
2. Sallah quipping "bad dates" as he catches a poisoned date after spotting a monkey
3. A Nazi getting run over after trying the same climb under the truck Indy just pulled, only to be foiled by the hood ornament
4. Belloq mocking Indy, saying that he will now "become" history
5. Taht's weird chain and rod thing being a clothes hanger, not a torture implement
6. Indy asking for whiskey in a bar fight, misunderstood until he whacks a guy on the head with the bottle
 
2012-01-19 01:38:32 PM
We all know what the biggest problem with IJATKOTCS was...

SHIA LABEOUF.

Shia just killed it stone-dead. I would have rather seen a grown-up Short-Round come back to team up with his mentor, Doctor Jones.

If you rip Mutt out of the movie, it becomes a lot more tolerable.
 
2012-01-19 01:42:51 PM
I finally got around to watching this movie a couple months ago. They play it all the time on TV and figured "what the hell, can't be THAT bad".

Holy shiat that movie is so bad. It was worse then I imagined it could be. I would rather be punched in the face then watch that again.

Adding Jar-Jar would have actually improved the movie. That's how bad it was.
 
2012-01-19 01:47:34 PM

Jim from Saint Paul: So magic is okay, but by god DO NOT FARK WITH PHYSICS!!! ?

Am I catching the drift?


Well yeah, exactly. It shouldn't be too hard a concept to grasp.
 
2012-01-19 01:48:31 PM

unlikely: In early interviews, Lucas was pretty clear that Lawrence Kasdan and someone named Brackett wrote most of the Empire Strikes Back based on notes he gave them outlining the major things he wanted to have happen.


For the sake of the curious, Leigh Brackett (new window) was a screenwriter who wrote or co-wrote The Big Sleep, Rio Bravo, and Altman's weird-ass The Long Goodbye. She was also a sci-fi writer in the 40s and 50s, one of the first female writers to achieve commercial success in that genre. Empire was her last screenplay. Her draft was finished not long before her death in 1978, and it's never been settled how much of the final version she wrote.

Thing I learned in posting this: Some of her novels were reprinted in the '70s, with Jim Steranko (new window) providing the cover art. Groovy.
 
2012-01-19 01:48:50 PM
If you want to know how to really protect yourself against a nuke, watch the informative film Blue Demon.

Link (new window) (only need to watch the first 40 seconds)

/ A door
// It's an awesome, shiny door with a glued on timer
/// Still just a door
 
2012-01-19 01:49:16 PM

Fano: Sallah and Marcus' Flanderization was disappointing.


Except it made for one of the best line/cut/line moments in film.

Indy: "He's got a two day head start on you, which is more than he needs. Brody's got friends in every town and village from here to the Sudan, he speaks a dozen languages, knows every local custom, he'll blend in, disappear, you'll never see him again. With any luck, he's got the grail already. "
-----
Marcus: "DOES ANYONE HERE SPEAK ENGLISH? Or even ancient Greek?"
 
2012-01-19 01:56:32 PM

Jim from Saint Paul: This movie was no worse the Temple of Doom.

They only rip out a guy's heart and have the guy still live to look down at his closing wound.

And a voodoo doll that WORKED.

And Kate Capshaw SCREAMING THE WHOLE TIME.

It at least had Short Round. It had that going for it.


Don't forget jumping out of an airplane with a rubber raft instead of a parachute. And going over a cliff with it.
 
2012-01-19 01:58:19 PM

born_yesterday: /You know who else liked the fridge scene?


Ron Marz?
 
2012-01-19 02:00:16 PM
The fridge scene is the least of the movie's problems.

The golden rule with action movies is that if you're having fun, you don't care about pesky facts, logic or science getting in the way. That line about "a kind of fusion" from The Matrix is complete and utter nonsense, and if you question and call it crap then logically, so is the whole movie.

The real problems were things like pace, motivation of characters, that no-one has any affection for Shia LeBouef, and most of all that the movie just has no heart.

What makes Indy 3 such a great movie is that it's an action adventure where you actually care about the characters. What's Indy 3 really about? No, not that holy grail. It's about a father and a son coming together. That's what people like Lucas and Michael Bay just don't farking get. You can have all the giant robots and explosions and massive CG spaceships, but at the core of it all, you've got to care about the characters and the story. That's why films like Indy 1-3 and Jurassic Park are still watchable today.
 
2012-01-19 02:03:18 PM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: colinspooky: Like it matters. It was a movie. Big balls rolling down corridors is suddenly normal, as is all the other crazy things that happen in escapist movies. Lighten up peeps

Exactly. Nazis melting? A pagan priest ripping hearts out of live people and not killing them? Falling from a Ford Trimotor on a liferaft and not shattering your spine? Totally realistic and beyond reproach. But a lead-lined refrigerator being tossed by a nuclear explosion with a guy surviving? Totally bogus! THIS MOVIE SUCKS!


The problem with the fridge scene isn't that it was implausible; it's that it was lame.
 
2012-01-19 02:07:00 PM
I must be in the minority, I liked the Fridge scene. It was perfectly in tone with Indy films past as far as him impossibly surviving, it places you perfectly into the early 50's Coldwar paranoia in which the film is set. I actually thought it was fun.

I also was fine with the films premise of ancient aliens. That also perfectly fit in with past Indy themes that every one of those Leonard Nemoy "What If?" things is right.

Now the ant scene was poorly done and very forced even though it fit in with the past film's theme of massed scary animals and the "Shia swings with the monkeys" thing just looked plain bad. But I groaned far worse at the diner scene during the hamhanded backstory of "Mutt" with the obvious clues that Indy was his dad.

It wasn't a good film but most of what I disliked about it has nothing to do with what everyone rages about.
 
2012-01-19 02:14:14 PM
Since we're listing things we hated about the movie, the thing that really grated on me was the fate of the female commie villain.

When she gets the aliens and tells them what she wants, I was expecting something like "power!", "weapons!" or "mass mind control!". Basically something that would make sense for her to receive an ironic come-uppance.

Instead, she asks for knowledge. My immediate reaction was, "Yeah, that's a good thing! Knowledge is good, and that's exactly what I would ask for too if I met an advance race of beings!"

The fact that the aliens interpreted that as "stuff my brain to the bursting point and kill me!" comes off as less than an ironic punishment for hubris and more like the aliens being total dicks who kill her for no other reason than that she's the designated bad guy.
 
2012-01-19 02:15:03 PM
Out of all the rediculously implausible scenerios in Jones movies this fridge thing is just beaten to death.

Soooo escaping a plane on a life raft when you run out of parachutes before you sled down an impossibly steep rocky snowy slope before plunging another 2000 feet into a raging river is entirely possible right?

What about water flowing out of a cup that can heal all wounds and make you immortal?

Or maybe a golden box that when opened will melt your face off before shooting lightning bolts through your eyes?

/its a movie, lighten up Francis.
 
2012-01-19 02:15:31 PM
The fridge scene is not an affront to my mind as much as the swinging monkey car chase scene.
That was where the movie became irredeemable in my mind.
 
2012-01-19 02:16:20 PM

gunga galunga: Indy posing as a Scottish interior decorator made me wince harder than anything in KOTCS.


I just can't agree with you.

bite-prod.s3.amazonaws.com
/hotlinked
 
2012-01-19 02:20:25 PM

farkeruk: That's what people like Lucas and Michael Bay just don't farking get. You can have all the giant robots and explosions and massive CG spaceships, but at the core of it all, you've got to care about the characters and the story. That's why films like Indy 1-3 and Jurassic Park are still watchable today.


Exactly. Lucas apologists can babble all they want about "Lucas Derangement Syndrome" but the reality is the guy hasn't made a movie with a heart since at least the 80s. How many times can he have major influence whether producing or directing on "meh" films before people finally admit he's lost his touch as a storyteller?

"Red Tails" is currently at 33% on Rotten Tomatoes. The reviews read like every other Lucas film of the last few decades:

"When the heroes crash, they go up in blazes of digital glory that seem just as artificial as the plotting that brought them to their fates."

"More often than not, Red Tails feels like it's pandering to every focus group that it never even tested... It's so cautious as to be lifeless, which is a shame on a lot of levels."

"Lucas' clout may have brought this important story to the screen, but his filmmaking shortcomings keep it from being told effectively."


These reviews could read like the reviews for Phantom Menace or Indy 4 or even Howard the Duck.
 
2012-01-19 02:24:36 PM

Gilligann: I finally got around to watching this movie a couple months ago. They play it all the time on TV and figured "what the hell, can't be THAT bad".

Holy shiat that movie is so bad. It was worse then I imagined it could be. I would rather be punched in the face then watch that again.

Adding Jar-Jar would have actually improved the movie. That's how bad it was.



Meesa don't believe you believe that.
 
2012-01-19 02:33:20 PM
forget the fridge, gopher, monkey swinging, rubbersnake/quicksand, flying magnetic gunpowder, ant, swordfigt straddling the two cars, stupid ass references to the earlier movies... it really sucked because it was wrong. He was trying to figure out what the stupid skull thing was about, Indy NEVER cared what something was about, the function wasn't a mystery in 1 and 3 and he didn't give a crap in any of them. now we have a dumb detective movie where he must solve the riddle of a bottle of dan ackroyd's vodka... while being chased. Indy being chased for an entire movie is wrong and lazy.
 
2012-01-19 02:38:18 PM
My biggest problem with KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL isn't the fridge scene, nor the swarming ants, nor the aliens from another dimension (all of those things are part and parcel of Saturday cliffhangers which INDIANA JONES is a riff on).

My problem with KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL is the AMMOUNT of suspension of disbelief I have to engage in order to swallow the idea that two bad a$$ characters like Indiana Jones and Marion Ravenwood would give birth to.....SHIA LEDOUF.

And for that, I blame no one but Steven Spielberg.
 
2012-01-19 02:41:34 PM
Who's idea was it to have bad ass, lady's man Indiana Jones look like grandpa wandered away from the home with someone's fedora and bullwhip?

BEER_ME_in_CT: Soooo escaping a plane on a life raft when you run out of parachutes before you sled down an impossibly steep rocky snowy slope before plunging another 2000 feet into a raging river is entirely possible right?


I agree with you there. Equally stupid, or darn close.

What about water flowing out of a cup that can heal all wounds and make you immortal?

That's mysticism. It's supposed to be unrealistic. Most importantly, the fact it is unbelievable is a key element to the plot.

Or maybe a golden box that when opened will melt your face off before shooting lightning bolts through your eyes?

See above.
 
2012-01-19 02:50:26 PM
While we're talking about what we didn't like in Crystal Skull, I'll chime in:

Is hiding in a lead-lined fridge really more improbable than face-melting Nazis and spontaneously combusting hearts? Yes, because Crystal Skull was showing the lead-lined fridge, basically saying "Here comes the science!" The previous scenes work because you are explicitly told they are the work of the divine, and therefor don't need to make sense or obey the laws of physics. And I'm sure people could think up a ton of scenes in the original trilogy that weren't inherently supernatural but were unbelievable (The flying raft scene in Temple of Doom and Indy pulling himself back onto a speeding truck using a whip and an arm he had just been shot in during Raiders come to mind), but the fridge just goes too far (in my opinion). Not only did they jump straight to ludicrous speed with that scene, they tried to patronize the audience by making it "believable."

Speaking of the supernatural, that was one of the key things I thought this movie was missing: The Cosmically powerful draw. Within twenty minutes of the movie's opening, you know the big mysterious power is aliens. What are they looking for? Aliens. Where did the skulls come from? Aliens(since it's their skulls). Most importantly, how does all this supernatural stuff work? Aliens. Now AFarkingTempest, you might say, can't you just replace Aliens int those questions with God/Gods in the original trilogy and have the same unsatisfactory feeling about them? Not really. Because you see in those films, you don't have much proof other than mythology and superstition to guide you. Futhermore, you don't know if or how these religious items work. In Crystal Skull, the skulls and the temple work because of alien technology, and while "Divine Power" may seem like an equal sort of cope out it isn't, because we know the aliens are living, breathing being who are simply more advanced in technology than we are. That alone makes them less intimidating (and in my opinion less interesting) than the Ark, the Shankara Stones (even though all we actually see them do is glow) and the Grail. How the heck do those things work? Is Christian mythology true? Is Hindu mythology true? Could all religious/mythological works have some air of truth to them that we take for granted?

Also, Shia LeBouf was completely unnecessary in that movie. Why was he there? So Lucas could try to troll the audience with a hint that he might continue the franchise? I mean it, I don't know why from a story point he was there. He didn't bring anything to the actual finding of the skulls or the temple, and anything to do with him convincing Indy to search for John Hurt's character could have been done by Marion who was ALREADY looking for him on her own. I guess he's there so Indy will feel sorry for leaving Marion, and to be the king of the monkeys (Which, by the way was my "Oh come the fark on" moment for that movie, I was really trying to judge this film on a curve but that just killed it for me)
 
2012-01-19 02:50:49 PM

Some 'Splainin' To Do: Since we're listing things we hated about the movie, the thing that really grated on me was the fate of the female commie villain.

When she gets the aliens and tells them what she wants, I was expecting something like "power!", "weapons!" or "mass mind control!". Basically something that would make sense for her to receive an ironic come-uppance.

Instead, she asks for knowledge. My immediate reaction was, "Yeah, that's a good thing! Knowledge is good, and that's exactly what I would ask for too if I met an advance race of beings!"

The fact that the aliens interpreted that as "stuff my brain to the bursting point and kill me!" comes off as less than an ironic punishment for hubris and more like the aliens being total dicks who kill her for no other reason than that she's the designated bad guy.


The Frank Darabont script did just that. The villain wished wished to become the most dangerous being on the planet. He was transformed into a brown recluse spider and was promptly stepped on.
 
2012-01-19 02:52:23 PM
Also, Mutt is a stupid name. That's where the movie lost me.
 
2012-01-19 02:59:06 PM

Mugato: Jim from Saint Paul: So magic is okay, but by god DO NOT FARK WITH PHYSICS!!! ?

Am I catching the drift?

Well yeah, exactly. It shouldn't be too hard a concept to grasp.


Well, to steal someone else's quote:

Great_Milenko: Don't forget jumping out of an airplane with a rubber raft instead of a parachute. And going over a cliff with it.


This is okay though?
 
2012-01-19 03:00:53 PM
And yet Nazi's opening a box full of sand and getting their faces melted off is somehow MORE believable?

Or jumping out of an airplane with only an inflatable raft as a flotation device?

/Got to love fanboys
 
2012-01-19 03:04:17 PM

Ivo Shandor: Who wants to take credit for the "magnetic gunpowder" scene? Because that's when I gave up on the movie (although I had a bad feeling about it as soon as the Caddyshack gopher appeared).


That was the worst for me. Not only gunpowder but grenade filler. Look, we can buy supernatural stuff because it's, you know, supernatural, but most explosives aren't ferromagnetic goddamnit you dolt. Can't you bother to take 2 minutes and wiki it you moran?
 
2012-01-19 03:05:33 PM

MonkeyAngst: unlikely: In early interviews, Lucas was pretty clear that Lawrence Kasdan and someone named Brackett wrote most of the Empire Strikes Back based on notes he gave them outlining the major things he wanted to have happen.

For the sake of the curious, Leigh Brackett (new window) was a screenwriter who wrote or co-wrote The Big Sleep, Rio Bravo, and Altman's weird-ass The Long Goodbye. She was also a sci-fi writer in the 40s and 50s, one of the first female writers to achieve commercial success in that genre. Empire was her last screenplay. Her draft was finished not long before her death in 1978, and it's never been settled how much of the final version she wrote.

Thing I learned in posting this: Some of her novels were reprinted in the '70s, with Jim Steranko (new window) providing the cover art. Groovy.


It's been settled. Little to nothing of Brackett survives in the film. Lucas still insisted on her getting a screenwriting credit even though he didn't have to, to honor her. Those with Lucas-derangement syndrome never credit him with things like this. Despite Gary Kurtz, or Dave Prowse's endless biatching since the original Star Wars came out, Lucas has always taken care of his own.
 
2012-01-19 03:13:53 PM

PanicMan: Also, Mutt is a stupid name. That's where the movie lost me.


And making him a Greaser was stupid too. When this movie is remade in 40 years he'll be a Hipster and the audience won't know what that was either.
 
2012-01-19 03:13:57 PM

Mugato: gunga galunga: Indy posing as a Scottish interior decorator made me wince harder than anything in KOTCS.

It wasn't just that, it was also Sallah, who was an intelligent if easily startled sidekick (to be fair, that Anubis statue was scary) in Raiders to a bumbling idiot in Last Crusade and Marcus who was a museum curator and Indy's sort of mentor to being a drunken moron. And Indy himself, contrast his reveal in Raiders. Shady Peruvian guy pulls a gun, a shadowy figure snaps that shiat out of his hand with a whip, lighting reveals Indy, bad motherfarker. Temple of Doom, children being whipped to death by big burly Indian guys camera pans up to reveal Indy, really pissed off motherfuicker. Then in Last Crusade he makes a comical face when his dad accidentally opens a secret staircase that Indy falls down.

So Indy 4 may have had its silly moments but at least it didn't ass rape its beloved characters. Marion was kind of goofy I suppose but there was no real reason for her to be the pissed off drunk we saw in Raiders.


And let's not forget this bit of offscreen dialogue that would have had to taken place on board the zeppelin.

"Captain?"
"Yes, First Mate."
"There was an incident in the passenger cabin. An officer of the SS boarded the zeppelin to interrogate our passangers. He was looking for some Americans. One of the Americans he was looking for stole a crewman's jacket and pretended to be a member of the crew, asking for passengers' tickets. Now I'm not sure why our passengers never questioned why a shabby, unshaven American speaking in plain english was asking for their ticket?. What's really significant is that the American then assaulted the SS officer who was looking for them and threw him out the window. He then said, in plain English with an American accent, "no ticket". The passangers were apparently all so intimdated that instead of rushing to subdue him, they all surrendered their tickets. But my point is we have two American fugitives, spies most likely, on board this aircraft. We should remain grounded and detain the Americans until more SS officers arrive to arrest them."
"I have a better idea. Let's just take off according to schedule. Do absolutely nothing to the Americans. The passangers will of course go about their business as if nothing is awry and if the SS want him that bad, they'll contact us and we'll turn this baby right back around when they do."
 
2012-01-19 03:19:07 PM

Some 'Splainin' To Do: Since we're listing things we hated about the movie, the thing that really grated on me was the fate of the female commie villain.

When she gets the aliens and tells them what she wants, I was expecting something like "power!", "weapons!" or "mass mind control!". Basically something that would make sense for her to receive an ironic come-uppance.

Instead, she asks for knowledge. My immediate reaction was, "Yeah, that's a good thing! Knowledge is good, and that's exactly what I would ask for too if I met an advance race of beings!"

The fact that the aliens interpreted that as "stuff my brain to the bursting point and kill me!" comes off as less than an ironic punishment for hubris and more like the aliens being total dicks who kill her for no other reason than that she's the designated bad guy.


I don't know if the alien(s) were either a Literal Genie (new window), or a Jackass Genie (new window).

Either way, she did get what she asked for.
 
2012-01-19 03:32:41 PM
Sorry, George, but Steven Spielberg already owned up to it, and he was actually proud of it. He was hoping "nuke the fridge" would be the new "jump the shark". So it's noble of you to take blame, but he already fessed up. I can find the article if anyone really wants me to fact check. I read it on AICN a few weeks back.
 
2012-01-19 03:33:40 PM

Daraymann: And yet Nazi's opening a box full of sand and getting their faces melted off is somehow MORE believable?

Or jumping out of an airplane with only an inflatable raft as a flotation device?

/Got to love fanboys


Why don't people get the difference in suspension of disbelief between the natural and the supernatural?
 
2012-01-19 03:38:53 PM

Wayne 985: I don't know why people thought the fridge scene was worse than the monkey/Shia one.

/So-so movie overall.


How bad was the monkey scene?

There is one Great Truth in this world that is seen as Law, and that is:

Everything's funnier with monkeys.

"Crystal Skull" shattered that Great Truth and Law.

There was so much that was wrong with Indy 4, and those two scenes rightfully get most of the hate, but there were zillions of other problems with that movie.

It wasn't that it was a bad Indiana Jones movie, it was just a bad movie.
 
2012-01-19 03:39:41 PM

Mugato: Fano: A: It was cool
B: Supernatural Abilities are part and parcel of Indy's world

I agree, even though I'm arguing that Indy 4 wasn't as terrible as people say, there's a difference in suspension of disbelief between the natural and supernatural. Which is why people don't have a problem with the fact that God will kick your ass if you look into the Ark but have an issue with Indy hanging onto a U-boat for however long it took to get to whatever island they were going to.


Good points except about the U-boat scene. I've never been able to see that scene without feeling that it's strongly implied that Indy snuck in through the hatch at some point and hid in the sub. He's not having a seat and hanging onto the rails, he's looking down and around to figure out how to get in. I really can't see how one can get the impression that he just rode up on top the whole way. (Though, that may still have been possible; WWII era subs ran topside almost all the time, only diving briefly when there was the threat of detection or to attack.)

/Indiana Jones was a series of two movies, Temple of Doom would've been the second worst had it been made.
 
2012-01-19 03:51:14 PM
One scene in "Crystal Skull" that has bugged me, and I've not seen it mentioned anywhere:

Towards the end the crew follows John Hurt and his skull through an ancient temple of some sort. As they're walking through, all of these natives start breaking through and out of the walls (quietly) so as to follow and ambush the heroes of the movie.

So, we're to believe that this tribe of hunter/gatherer types really has nothing better to do all day than hang around, plastered inside some wall in a long-abandoned temple that hasn't seen an outsider in hundreds and hundreds of years, just hoping that some interlopers will come along that they can terrorize?

Who plasters these people into the walls?
Do they get bathroom breaks or just go right there in their cramped cells?
What else do they do besides hang around in these walls?
Wouldn't they cramp up from standing around or crouching into cramped spaces all day, making them ineffective to fight off interlopers?

These are things I think about.
 
2012-01-19 03:53:48 PM

Optimal_Illusion: The fact that the aliens interpreted that as "stuff my brain to the bursting point and kill me!" comes off as less than an ironic punishment for hubris and more like the aliens being total dicks who kill her for no other reason than that she's the designated bad guy.

I don't know if the alien(s) were either a Literal Genie (new window), or a Jackass Genie (new window).

Either way, she did get what she asked for.


I believe that the exact phrase was "I want to know everything", so I think that the Literal Genie trope applies. In strict terms, she did get exactly what she asked for.

Either way, it's a dick move. From the alien's perspective, we must be like children. If a child says, "I want all the cookies in the world," your reply shouldn't be, "Oh yeah!? Okay, let's stuff you full of cookies until your stomach ruptures, you little turd!"

You either say "No, that's greedy", or, if you're feeling generous, you say, "Okay, here's ONE cookie. Try not to be so greedy, though."

/ I was going to go with a girl telling a guy that she wants him to fark her brains out, but that got kind of gory.
 
2012-01-19 03:54:41 PM

Mugato: Daraymann: And yet Nazi's opening a box full of sand and getting their faces melted off is somehow MORE believable?

Or jumping out of an airplane with only an inflatable raft as a flotation device?

/Got to love fanboys

Why don't people get the difference in suspension of disbelief between the natural and the supernatural?


That scence is not a suspsension of belief in the supernatural.
 
2012-01-19 03:58:35 PM

Quiefenburger: [www-deadline-com.vimg.net image 547x427]

/hot, obviously


Strangely enough, that episode was on the air last night.
 
2012-01-19 03:58:53 PM

Nihilist's Guide to Reticent Entropy: Shia just killed it stone-dead. I would have rather seen a grown-up Short-Round come back to team up with his mentor, Doctor Jones.


You know... handled well, that could have totally rocked.
 
2012-01-19 04:04:18 PM
Meanwhile, take every dollar everyone in this thread will earn over their lifetime, multiply it by 100, and you might have enough to match what Lucas and Speiberg are worth combined.
 
2012-01-19 04:31:50 PM

Dog Welder: There is one Great Truth in this world that is seen as Law, and that is:

Everything's funnier with monkeys.


I truly believe George Lucas could kill a fart joke.
 
2012-01-19 04:38:43 PM
Surviving a nuclear blast in a lead lined fridge makes just as much sense as finding an ark of the covenant or knights in a cave that don't age because they drink from the holy grail. More sense actually

/Temple of Doom is still the worst Indiana Jones movie
//Would have enjoyed Crystal Skull more if Shia hadn't been in it
 
2012-01-19 04:40:46 PM

Some 'Splainin' To Do: Nihilist's Guide to Reticent Entropy: Shia just killed it stone-dead. I would have rather seen a grown-up Short-Round come back to team up with his mentor, Doctor Jones.

You know... handled well, that could have totally rocked.


Especially since Ke Huy Kwan has been working in martial arts and stunts in his adult years.
 
2012-01-19 04:43:59 PM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: colinspooky: Like it matters. It was a movie. Big balls rolling down corridors is suddenly normal, as is all the other crazy things that happen in escapist movies. Lighten up peeps

Exactly. Nazis melting? A pagan priest ripping hearts out of live people and not killing them? Falling from a Ford Trimotor on a liferaft and not shattering your spine? Totally realistic and beyond reproach. But a lead-lined refrigerator being tossed by a nuclear explosion with a guy surviving? Totally bogus! THIS MOVIE SUCKS!


Yes because science vs magic. Magic doesn't break the suspension of disbelief. Having something that is as scientifically iconic as nuclear fission doesn't give us any options.

We know how cars work. We know how magnets work. Even that airplane liferaft is more believable. Terminal velocity of a human(not liferaft) is in the range of 130 mph. The velocity of the shockwave from a nuclear explosion exceeds 700mph (minimum)


Magic on the other hand? We believe it does whatever the author tells us it does. Why? It's magic. So the Grail, the ark, the stones, the evil wizard? How did they do what they did? Magic.
 
2012-01-19 04:44:42 PM

Some 'Splainin' To Do: Optimal_Illusion: The fact that the aliens interpreted that as "stuff my brain to the bursting point and kill me!" comes off as less than an ironic punishment for hubris and more like the aliens being total dicks who kill her for no other reason than that she's the designated bad guy.

I don't know if the alien(s) were either a Literal Genie (new window), or a Jackass Genie (new window).

Either way, she did get what she asked for.

I believe that the exact phrase was "I want to know everything", so I think that the Literal Genie trope applies. In strict terms, she did get exactly what she asked for.

Either way, it's a dick move. From the alien's perspective, we must be like children. If a child says, "I want all the cookies in the world," your reply shouldn't be, "Oh yeah!? Okay, let's stuff you full of cookies until your stomach ruptures, you little turd!"

You either say "No, that's greedy", or, if you're feeling generous, you say, "Okay, here's ONE cookie. Try not to be so greedy, though."

/ I was going to go with a girl telling a guy that she wants him to fark her brains out, but that got kind of gory.


Came to point this out, regarding Comrade Spalko's wish to "know everything". As for the aliens - they're anthropologists. From their perspective the natives may be ignorant, but they're also hostile and dangerous. They just spent several hundred years trapped here, they're finally going home and you've got one of these annoying primitives demanding a favor. They're understandably not in the best mood and they're pulling out forever - casually stomping on the one of these insects that has the unmitigated gall to make a request while they're lifting off was trivial. We have no evidence they value human life, hell they had the locals build them an elaborate temple as a base camp.
 
2012-01-19 04:46:08 PM

peterthx: Those with Lucas-derangement syndrome never credit him with things like this.


There's no such thing as "Lucas-derangement syndrome." You just have very bad taste in cinema.
 
2012-01-19 04:51:23 PM

jj325: Surviving a nuclear blast in a lead lined fridge makes just as much sense as finding an ark of the covenant or knights in a cave that don't age because they drink from the holy grail. More sense actually

/Temple of Doom is still the worst Indiana Jones movie
//Would have enjoyed Crystal Skull more if Shia hadn't been in it


Nope, in Indiana jones universe it was established that those exist. So they have a probability of occurance of 1.

In a story, if the author says that the moon is made of aluminum, it is made of aluminum. The criticism comes when the rest of the story doesn't take that into account.

Take star trek, transporters are fine, but your characters must not behave like they live in a universe without transporters.
 
2012-01-19 04:53:21 PM
The South Park guys got it backwards when they made Lucas seem like the one with a conscience in the "Free Hat" episode.
 
2012-01-19 04:53:51 PM

Nihilist's Guide to Reticent Entropy: We all know what the biggest problem with IJATKOTCS was...

SHIA LABEOUF.

Shia just killed it stone-dead. I would have rather seen a grown-up Short-Round come back to team up with his mentor, Doctor Jones.

If you rip Mutt out of the movie, it becomes a lot more tolerable.


Actually, thinking back on the movie, I expected him to be the worse part, but he was actually one of the few things that seemed right in the movie (except the part where he for some reason knew fencing), and the scenes between Mutt and Indy are fine. Its all the other characters who are off. As much as I like the character of Marion, she seemed really forced into it.

(Check out the Mr. Plinkett review sometime and he agrees that Mutt/Shia Labeouf are one of the few things that works and makes sense compared to all the other crap).
 
2012-01-19 04:54:42 PM

sabreWulf07: Came to point this out, regarding Comrade Spalko's wish to "know everything". As for the aliens - they're anthropologists. From their perspective the natives may be ignorant, but they're also hostile and dangerous. They just spent several hundred years trapped here, they're finally going home and you've got one of these annoying primitives demanding a favor. They're understandably not in the best mood and they're pulling out forever - casually stomping on the one of these insects that has the unmitigated gall to make a request while they're lifting off was trivial. We have no evidence they value human life, hell they had the locals build them an elaborate temple as a base camp.


That's plausible, but it kind of subverts the narrative. When the Nazis got scorched in the first movie, it was morally satisfying because they were trying to accomplish something evil.

Getting squished because a Sufficiently Advanced Alien was feeling peevish when you made a reasonable request (admittedly, using an unfortunate idiom) strikes me as less than a punishment for hubris (which seems to be what they were going for) and more of a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

At best, it feels like a broken Aesop.
 
2012-01-19 04:55:48 PM

sabreWulf07: Some 'Splainin' To Do: Optimal_Illusion: The fact that the aliens interpreted that as "stuff my brain to the bursting point and kill me!" comes off as less than an ironic punishment for hubris and more like the aliens being total dicks who kill her for no other reason than that she's the designated bad guy.

I don't know if the alien(s) were either a Literal Genie (new window), or a Jackass Genie (new window).

Either way, she did get what she asked for.

I believe that the exact phrase was "I want to know everything", so I think that the Literal Genie trope applies. In strict terms, she did get exactly what she asked for.

Either way, it's a dick move. From the alien's perspective, we must be like children. If a child says, "I want all the cookies in the world," your reply shouldn't be, "Oh yeah!? Okay, let's stuff you full of cookies until your stomach ruptures, you little turd!"

You either say "No, that's greedy", or, if you're feeling generous, you say, "Okay, here's ONE cookie. Try not to be so greedy, though."

/ I was going to go with a girl telling a guy that she wants him to fark her brains out, but that got kind of gory.

Came to point this out, regarding Comrade Spalko's wish to "know everything". As for the aliens - they're anthropologists. From their perspective the natives may be ignorant, but they're also hostile and dangerous. They just spent several hundred years trapped here, they're finally going home and you've got one of these annoying primitives demanding a favor. They're understandably not in the best mood and they're pulling out forever - casually stomping on the one of these insects that has the unmitigated gall to make a request while they're lifting off was trivial. We have no evidence they value human life, hell they had the locals build them an elaborate temple as a base camp.


Actually she didn't demand a favor, they offered something in thanks for returning the skull.

The death scene made no sense. Nor did much of anything else though.
 
2012-01-19 05:01:23 PM

kim jong-un: Yes because science vs magic. Magic doesn't break the suspension of disbelief.


Thank you. No one seems to farking get this.
 
2012-01-19 05:03:55 PM
Love the "Screw Lucas, he raped my childhood" nonsense.

You go to a friend of a friend's house. He makes the best pizza you've ever had. You rave about the pizza, dream about it. When you get invited back, you go, and have ANOTHER great pizza. Love it! talk about it! A third time? Sure.... Another great pizza!!!!

The fourth time, the pizza is burnt and watery, all at the same time.

Is "fark that guy, he ruined my love for those first three pizzas" a reasonable conclusion of any kind?
 
2012-01-19 05:04:29 PM

Diogenes Teufelsdrockh: Good points except about the U-boat scene. I've never been able to see that scene without feeling that it's strongly implied that Indy snuck in through the hatch at some point and hid in the sub. He's not having a seat and hanging onto the rails, he's looking down and around to figure out how to get in. I really can't see how one can get the impression that he just rode up on top the whole way. (Though, that may still have been possible; WWII era subs ran topside almost all the time, only diving briefly when there was the threat of detection or to attack.)


The point about subs running topside is valid, but even then, they tended to be low in the water. When you're talking a trans-oceanic journey, it seems likely that Indy would have died of exposure or been washed overboard at some point.

That very scene, however, is proof that the first movie was doing a great job of getting you to suspend disbelief. Very few people were thinking about the sub trip, when it came out, because the movie had already established a suspension of disbelief that let the audience comfortably go along for the ride. By the time you got to that scene, Indy could have probably hitched a ride hanging from the wheels of a cargo plane and the audience would have just accepted it.

The problem with the fridge sequence isn't that it requires a suspension of disbelief, the problem is that the movie was failing to get the audience to suspend disbelief to the point where this wouldn't seem like a monumentally stupid event.
 
2012-01-19 05:05:21 PM
One of my friends worked on the B camera crew for Indy 4 and occasionally saw Lucas on the set. I told him that he needed to walk up to Lucas, kick him square in the junk and say "You know what you did!" I would then go to the internet and raise his bail money from the donations of legions of appreciative nerds. At that time, neither of us had any idea how bad Indy 4 would turn out; we were still looking for payback for Star Wars 1-3. Really, if at any point in my life prior to that fateful day in May of 1999, someone told me that there were going to be three more Star Wars movies and that I was going to passionately hate all of them, I would have called them a liar. Yet here we are.
 
2012-01-19 05:05:59 PM

Misconduc: It's a movie, people are farking stupid to be still arguing over a movie SCENE.


And you're here because....???

/Welcome to FARK.
 
2012-01-19 05:07:21 PM

Hebalo: Love the "Screw Lucas, he raped my childhood" nonsense.

You go to a friend of a friend's house. He makes the best pizza you've ever had. You rave about the pizza, dream about it. When you get invited back, you go, and have ANOTHER great pizza. Love it! talk about it! A third time? Sure.... Another great pizza!!!!

The fourth time, the pizza is burnt and watery, all at the same time.

Is "fark that guy, he ruined my love for those first three pizzas" a reasonable conclusion of any kind?


Are we paying money for the pizzas in this scenario? Because I'm pretty sure that I was paying for all the "pizza" that Lucas and Spielberg were serving.

This is more like going to a once great pizzaria and lamenting the fact that everything coming out of it, lately, has been crap.
 
2012-01-19 05:14:10 PM

Some 'Splainin' To Do: Hebalo: Love the "Screw Lucas, he raped my childhood" nonsense.

You go to a friend of a friend's house. He makes the best pizza you've ever had. You rave about the pizza, dream about it. When you get invited back, you go, and have ANOTHER great pizza. Love it! talk about it! A third time? Sure.... Another great pizza!!!!

The fourth time, the pizza is burnt and watery, all at the same time.

Is "fark that guy, he ruined my love for those first three pizzas" a reasonable conclusion of any kind?

Are we paying money for the pizzas in this scenario? Because I'm pretty sure that I was paying for all the "pizza" that Lucas and Spielberg were serving.

This is more like going to a once great pizzaria and lamenting the fact that everything coming out of it, lately, has been crap.


Money isn't the point here. It's that the quality of the most current film in NO WAY changes the quality of the the earlier films. Anyone who says otherwise is simply throwing a tantrum.
 
2012-01-19 05:17:21 PM
Hold on here a second people..

why are any of y'all assuming the fridge was lead lined in the first place?

it was just a insulated metal box as far as I'm concerned. it wasn't there to protect him from the radiation, it was there to protect him from the shock wave of the nuke blast.

yes there would have been a gamma burst. but, the blast looked like it was from a low yield weapon and the man was about two miles away from the initial blast itself. gotta remember.. the really big and nasty bombs they were setting off at the time were all set off in the pacific proving grounds. That the man was in a house at all on the range means it was part of operation Cue and took place in 1955

"Neutron radiation in the first few milliseconds of the explosion can induce radiation--and it does--BUT it's "power" decreases exponentially with distance. With this relatively low-yield weapon anything further than a km or so would be completely safe from neutrons and gamma radiation. Therefore, it is not impossible that there would be hardly any radiation in the area, especially if most of the fallout cloud had been blown away quickly."

Indy would have been reasonably safe from radiation inside the fridge... now being thrown through the air, inside that fridge would've been an issue. I got an old fridge like that, they're pretty damn sturdy. and there wouldn't have been a lot of room for him to bounce around inside of the fridge. so that's plausable as well.

with all that said.. fark them damn monkies!

overall though.. I'll say I enjoyed the movie, I had fun with it. I didn't even mind the alien archeologist stuff either. in my view.. it worked in the indy universe.

As long as tey don't fark with the Goonies, we'll all be cooo
 
2012-01-19 05:17:58 PM

Hebalo: Money isn't the point here. It's that the quality of the most current film in NO WAY changes the quality of the the earlier films. Anyone who says otherwise is simply throwing a tantrum.


I think that you're confusing intentional hyperbole for a literal sentiment.
 
2012-01-19 05:26:16 PM

Hebalo: Love the "Screw Lucas, he raped my childhood" nonsense.

You go to a friend of a friend's house. He makes the best pizza you've ever had. You rave about the pizza, dream about it. When you get invited back, you go, and have ANOTHER great pizza. Love it! talk about it! A third time? Sure.... Another great pizza!!!!

The fourth time, the pizza is burnt and watery, all at the same time.

Is "fark that guy, he ruined my love for those first three pizzas" a reasonable conclusion of any kind?


This.

Spielberg and Lucas didn't rape your childhood. They gave you a childhood. Crappy sequels, prequels and special editions don't change that. Hell, the fact that Lucas doesn't do justice to the original trilogy makes me cherish those childhood memories even more.
 
2012-01-19 05:29:02 PM

Some 'Splainin' To Do: The point about subs running topside is valid, but even then, they tended to be low in the water. When you're talking a trans-oceanic journey, it seems likely that Indy would have died of exposure or been washed overboard at some point.


That wasn't my point. I was wondering why people think he stayed outside the sub in the first place. That scene gave the strong impression that Indy snuck inside the sub any who aren't so literal minded that they can't make the mental jump without everything being shown. The question was: why do people think otherwise?

Cerebral Knievel: Hold on here a second people..

why are any of y'all assuming the fridge was lead lined in the first place?


That would be because the camera did a close up on the fridge where it said that it was lead-lined.
 
2012-01-19 05:30:07 PM

Cerebral Knievel: Hold on here a second people..

why are any of y'all assuming the fridge was lead lined in the first place?

it was just a insulated metal box as far as I'm concerned. it wasn't there to protect him from the radiation, it was there to protect him from the shock wave of the nuke blast.


it was the close up of the little sign that said LEAD LINED that has everyone thinking it was lined... with lead
 
2012-01-19 05:31:55 PM

Samsquantch: One of my friends worked on the B camera crew for Indy 4 and occasionally saw Lucas on the set. I told him that he needed to walk up to Lucas, kick him square in the junk and say "You know what you did!" I would then go to the internet and raise his bail money from the donations of legions of appreciative nerds. At that time, neither of us had any idea how bad Indy 4 would turn out; we were still looking for payback for Star Wars 1-3. Really, if at any point in my life prior to that fateful day in May of 1999, someone told me that there were going to be three more Star Wars movies and that I was going to passionately hate all of them, I would have called them a liar. Yet here we are.


It would be better if William Farking Shatner walked up to YOU and kicked you square in the junk and shouted "get a life, loser!"

Seriously, you're just a miserable asshole if you encourage others to assault people just because you don't like a movie.

/ITG, whatever...whiny fanboys need to DIAF
 
2012-01-19 05:49:29 PM

naugahyde monkey: Cerebral Knievel: Hold on here a second people..

why are any of y'all assuming the fridge was lead lined in the first place?

it was just a insulated metal box as far as I'm concerned. it wasn't there to protect him from the radiation, it was there to protect him from the shock wave of the nuke blast.

it was the close up of the little sign that said LEAD LINED that has everyone thinking it was lined... with lead


AHHHHH! missed that bit.How the hell did I miss that?

that just doesn't make sense.. why would you line a fridge with lead anyways? its not necessary, and kids might try to lick it or something.
 
2012-01-19 06:00:50 PM

Mugato: Spielberg is the director and always has creative control over his films.


Watch the DVD extras. Spielberg basically says "George whined like a biatch until he got it his way and I really didn't give a fark because I never wanted to make the movie in the first place".
 
2012-01-19 06:03:22 PM

gunga galunga: And let's not forget this bit of offscreen dialogue that would have had to taken place on board the zeppelin.

"Captain?"
"Yes, First Mate."
"There was an incident in the passenger cabin. An officer of the SS boarded the zeppelin to interrogate our passangers. He was looking for some Americans. One of the Americans he was looking for stole a crewman's jacket and pretended to be a member of the crew, asking for passengers' tickets. Now I'm not sure why our passengers never questioned why a shabby, unshaven American speaking in plain english was asking for their ticket?. What's really significant is that the American then assaulted the SS officer who was looking for them and threw him out the window. He then said, in plain English with an American accent, "no ticket". The passangers were apparently all so intimdated that instead of rushing to subdue him, they all surrendered their tickets. But my point is we have two American fugitives, spies most likely, on board this aircraft. We should remain grounded and detain the Americans until more SS officers arrive to arrest them."
"I have a better idea. Let's just take off according to schedule. Do absolutely nothing to the Americans. The passangers will of course go about their business as if nothing is awry and if the SS want him that bad, they'll contact us and we'll turn this baby right back around when they do."


You clearly need to watch the film again:

1st - Indy was speaking (rough) German while asking for tickets. "Fahrscheine, bitte" can be heard while Vogel is approaching/saying "Guten Tag" to Jones Sr. He asks again "Tickets please" in English both for the audience's benefit (no subtitles) and probably to convey that not all of the passengers are German speakers (not unlikely given the time period). This leads into the next one:

2nd - The "No Ticket" bit was obviously comic relief. Let it go. Asking for tickets in German and English sort of establishes that at least some of the passengers understand English. The punchline would have sucked if he'd uttered it in German with subtitles.

3rd - Presumably, the only person on the Zepplin who was "crew" who knew about Indy was the porter who got knocked out and had his clothing stolen. (Otherwise there's have been a bigger fight then or when Vogel got tossed.) Vogel was outside the aircraft. As long as none of the rich German passengers got it into their heads to wander up to the control deck and make inquiries of the rest of the crew - why wouldn't the Zepplin take off?

4th - When the Zepplin begins to turn around, prompting the Jonses to exit the aircraft, there's a cut where Indy is finishing his defense to his father, clearly saying "Well, I thought it wold take them longer to figure out the radio was dead!" This implies a longer conversation and the previous action of Indy sabotaging the radio in the hope that the SS, etc. would NOT be able to contact the zepplin once airborne.

Of the MANY things in these movies that require suspension of disbelief, this scene wasn't really one of them.
 
2012-01-19 06:09:40 PM

Hebalo: Love the "Screw Lucas, he raped my childhood" nonsense.

You go to a friend of a friend's house. He makes the best pizza you've ever had. You rave about the pizza, dream about it. When you get invited back, you go, and have ANOTHER great pizza. Love it! talk about it! A third time? Sure.... Another great pizza!!!!

The fourth time, the pizza is burnt and watery, all at the same time.

Is "fark that guy, he ruined my love for those first three pizzas" a reasonable conclusion of any kind?


No - the fourth pizza isn't just hot and watery - there's something foul in it. And upon closer inspection, you discover it's composed of feces.

THAT is why the fouth Indy Jones film destroyed the first three. The doddering old fool in that movie isn't just Indy Jones with dementia - rather, it reveals that he is a character lacking in ... well... character! He's been a fool all along. A lucky fool, perhaps, but a fool nonetheless. Retrospectively, you realize that he was never good.

I say that as a fan of Lucas and someone who doesn't mind the various Star Wars things.
 
2012-01-19 06:12:24 PM

gunga galunga: This.

Spielberg and Lucas didn't rape your childhood. They gave you a childhood. Crappy sequels, prequels and special editions don't change that. Hell, the fact that Lucas doesn't do justice to the original trilogy makes me cherish those childhood memories even more.


You have this argument upside down. The folks saying the original Star Wars or Indy films are crap aren't the same folks saying the stuff Lucas churns out now is terrible. If anything the biggest detractors of Lucas's work from the 70s and 80s are apologists for his newer work who say "go back and watch the original Star Wars because the acting is just as stilted and the jokes just as corny as the new stuff."

Personally, I'm sad that Lucas has lost his talent and can't seem to tell a story anymore but it will break my heart when he finally kicks off just because I developed a love for movies because George Lucas's Star Wars. It was my first out of body experience at the movies and every film I've seen since has been an attempt to at least in part capture that same cinematic high.
 
2012-01-19 06:23:08 PM

elgripe: No - the fourth pizza isn't just hot and watery - there's something foul in it. And upon closer inspection, you discover it's composed of feces.

THAT is why the fouth Indy Jones film destroyed the first three.



Ok. As long as you're not totally and completely overreacting.
 
2012-01-19 06:30:20 PM

Hebalo: Some 'Splainin' To Do: Hebalo: Love the "Screw Lucas, he raped my childhood" nonsense.

You go to a friend of a friend's house. He makes the best pizza you've ever had. You rave about the pizza, dream about it. When you get invited back, you go, and have ANOTHER great pizza. Love it! talk about it! A third time? Sure.... Another great pizza!!!!

The fourth time, the pizza is burnt and watery, all at the same time.

Is "fark that guy, he ruined my love for those first three pizzas" a reasonable conclusion of any kind?

Are we paying money for the pizzas in this scenario? Because I'm pretty sure that I was paying for all the "pizza" that Lucas and Spielberg were serving.

This is more like going to a once great pizzaria and lamenting the fact that everything coming out of it, lately, has been crap.

Money isn't the point here. It's that the quality of the most current film in NO WAY changes the quality of the the earlier films. Anyone who says otherwise is simply throwing a tantrum.


Lucas decided that final pizza was the best pizza and then bought out all existing pizzerias and only allowed them to sell his new 'improved pizza.
 
2012-01-19 06:32:41 PM

elgripe: Hebalo: Love the "Screw Lucas, he raped my childhood" nonsense.

You go to a friend of a friend's house. He makes the best pizza you've ever had. You rave about the pizza, dream about it. When you get invited back, you go, and have ANOTHER great pizza. Love it! talk about it! A third time? Sure.... Another great pizza!!!!

The fourth time, the pizza is burnt and watery, all at the same time.

Is "fark that guy, he ruined my love for those first three pizzas" a reasonable conclusion of any kind?

No - the fourth pizza isn't just hot and watery - there's something foul in it. And upon closer inspection, you discover it's composed of feces.

THAT is why the fouth Indy Jones film destroyed the first three. The doddering old fool in that movie isn't just Indy Jones with dementia - rather, it reveals that he is a character lacking in ... well... character! He's been a fool all along. A lucky fool, perhaps, but a fool nonetheless. Retrospectively, you realize that he was never good.

I say that as a fan of Lucas and someone who doesn't mind the various Star Wars things.


I don't want to eat at your house. :) It would be like that scene from Hellraiser IV.
 
2012-01-19 06:42:23 PM

Andromeda: He claimed that if the fridge was lead-lined


How many fridges, even those made in the 50's, had lead lining?
 
2012-01-19 06:43:36 PM

Blathering Idjut: gunga galunga: This.

Spielberg and Lucas didn't rape your childhood. They gave you a childhood. Crappy sequels, prequels and special editions don't change that. Hell, the fact that Lucas doesn't do justice to the original trilogy makes me cherish those childhood memories even more.

You have this argument upside down. The folks saying the original Star Wars or Indy films are crap aren't the same folks saying the stuff Lucas churns out now is terrible. If anything the biggest detractors of Lucas's work from the 70s and 80s are apologists for his newer work who say "go back and watch the original Star Wars because the acting is just as stilted and the jokes just as corny as the new stuff."

Personally, I'm sad that Lucas has lost his talent and can't seem to tell a story anymore but it will break my heart when he finally kicks off just because I developed a love for movies because George Lucas's Star Wars. It was my first out of body experience at the movies and every film I've seen since has been an attempt to at least in part capture that same cinematic high.


Actually, I think you have my argument upside down. I'm talking about people who, like myself, grew up watching and enjoying Spielberg and Lucas movies and have become disappointed by what they've done to their own franchises and, unlike myself, make the ridiculous claim that their childhoods have been raped. Whatever that means.

At Spielberg apologized for what he did to ET and promised the original version will be on Blu-Ray.
 
2012-01-19 06:56:05 PM

Mugato:

You have to admit though, this is a pretty cool shot.

[videogum.com image 450x188]




No... not really. There's plenty of shots from the Nevada tests (they even shot a few in Panavision) that the animators could have used to make it look more like the real thing. Watch the HD version of Trinity and Beyond and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Had the same problem with T4... but that flick had plenty of script problems as well...
 
2012-01-19 07:20:55 PM

9beers: Mugato: Spielberg is the director and always has creative control over his films.

Watch the DVD extras. Spielberg basically says "George whined like a biatch until he got it his way and I really didn't give a fark because I never wanted to make the movie in the first place".


That doesn't make what's on the screen not his fault.
 
2012-01-19 07:37:33 PM

mongbiohazard: The fridge nuking scene alone would have not ruined the movie. What ruined the movie was it being a shiatty movie. Every inch of "Indiana Jones and the Most Bullshiat MacGuffin Ever" was an exercise in stretching credulity beyond repair.


====================================================

From now on I will always refer to IJ4 as "Indiana Jones and the Most Bullshiat MacGuffin Ever." That is just classic, and so painfully true.
 
2012-01-19 07:48:42 PM

Some 'Splainin' To Do: Diogenes Teufelsdrockh: Good points except about the U-boat scene. I've never been able to see that scene without feeling that it's strongly implied that Indy snuck in through the hatch at some point and hid in the sub. He's not having a seat and hanging onto the rails, he's looking down and around to figure out how to get in. I really can't see how one can get the impression that he just rode up on top the whole way. (Though, that may still have been possible; WWII era subs ran topside almost all the time, only diving briefly when there was the threat of detection or to attack.)

The point about subs running topside is valid, but even then, they tended to be low in the water. When you're talking a trans-oceanic journey, it seems likely that Indy would have died of exposure or been washed overboard at some point.

That very scene, however, is proof that the first movie was doing a great job of getting you to suspend disbelief. Very few people were thinking about the sub trip, when it came out, because the movie had already established a suspension of disbelief that let the audience comfortably go along for the ride. By the time you got to that scene, Indy could have probably hitched a ride hanging from the wheels of a cargo plane and the audience would have just accepted it.

The problem with the fridge sequence isn't that it requires a suspension of disbelief, the problem is that the movie was failing to get the audience to suspend disbelief to the point where this wouldn't seem like a monumentally stupid event.


I never questioned Indy hanging off the U-boat until Cracked mentioned it. I think that covered "willing suspension of disbelief." You get caught up in the excitement of Katanga's crew cheering him, then the map comes up, then he is in the U-boat hangar. You really don't get a moment to say "hey, wait a minute..."

It's well done when you don't notice such details, it means you are engaged in the story.
 
2012-01-19 07:53:16 PM
What I don't understand is why Lucas thinks that better effects are more important than a good story...that they can substitute for having heart. I can think of innumerable movies that lacked CGI but were memorable and entertaining.

Why hasn't he remade American Graffiti where all the cars have rocket engines and everyone shoots lasers from their eyes? I think because that's the last story he told that he understood. He slandered the original trilogy to add a bunch of stupid CGI crap. Is that why he thinks those stories resonated? He treats scripts and actors, and, unfortunately, even directorial innovation with absolute contempt, and as secondary to the effects.

Look, I'm not a "fanboy", I could care less IRL. I'm just embarrassed for him that every time he is given the freedom to enhance/create a film with his "vision", it ends up an overproduced, cold POS. It is not the special effects that make a story "epic"; it is the emotional content. Effects can only enhance that. I would hold up Jackson';s LOTR trilogy as a film trilogy that got it pretty right.

/Take that, Mr. Lucas!
// Run, you fools!
 
2012-01-19 08:04:19 PM

Wayne 985: I don't know why people thought the fridge scene was worse than the monkey/Shia one.

/So-so movie overall.


It wasnt. I can forgive the fridge scene. Yes it was silly, but no less silly than giant boulders or melting nazis or a still beating human heart being ripped from someones chest barehanded...

But the vine scene. Thats when i threw up my hands. Literally. I think this was pretty much my exact reaction.

tronlegacyreview.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-01-19 08:29:34 PM

Tsar_Bomba1: No... not really. There's plenty of shots from the Nevada tests (they even shot a few in Panavision) that the animators could have used to make it look more like the real thing. Watch the HD version of Trinity and Beyond and you'll see what I'm talking about.


Wrongo. ILM animated it from scratch.



But I guess people can't admit that there is such a thing as "good" CGI, especially in a Lucas-bashing thread.
 
2012-01-19 08:36:30 PM

loonatic112358: Andromeda: He claimed that if the fridge was lead-lined, if Indy didn't break his neck and he was able to open the door, he would survive. "The odds of surviving that refrigerator - from a lot of scientists - are about 50-50," Lucas said.

I would like to meet these scientists of whom you speak, because I know "a lot of scientists" too and all of us know it was beyond farking stupid.

I'm wondering if they even did a simulation of what would have happened to that fridge


Obsidian entertainment ran a simulation (new window)
 
2012-01-19 08:37:50 PM

peterthx: But I guess people can't admit that there is such a thing as "good" CGI, especially in a Lucas-bashing thread.


I can.

/works in CGI
//tries to anyway
 
2012-01-19 08:44:09 PM
GET.THE fark.OVER.IT.ALREADY.

/like anything else in the other 3 movies were remotely believable.
//it's supposed to be goofy and fun.That's the whole point.
///Been a fan since Raiders first came out and still a fan.Always will be.
 
2012-01-19 09:26:17 PM
I thought the worst part was the chase scene in the jungle. I have video games that are more realistic.
 
2012-01-19 10:07:18 PM
Mocked - along with most of the film admittedly - upon its release in 2008, most suspected that Lucas was behind the scene.

According to a focus group of people who follow my tumblr, I
 
2012-01-19 10:33:43 PM
Ok heres what really happened with the infamous lead lined refridgator scene. Indy got a fatal dose of radiation and was crushed like a ripe tomato.

The rest of the movie is a radiation sickness+massive doses of morphine halluncination while Indy lay dying in a hospital bed.

/and there is only one Matrix movie.
 
2012-01-19 10:34:48 PM

Cerebral Knievel: that just doesn't make sense.. why would you line a fridge with lead anyways?


TV's Vinnie: How many fridges, even those made in the 50's, had lead lining?


Depending on the experiments they were conducting, maybe quite a few. They are used to store radioactive biological samples. (new window) That site apparently sells anything you could possibly think of with lead lining.

Mugato: kim jong-un: Yes because science vs magic. Magic doesn't break the suspension of disbelief.

Thank you. No one seems to farking get this.


I got it, and I was glad that someone finally explained it. I hadn't dwelled on the question long enough to figure out why I didn't buy the fridge, but that's exactly it: Grail, Ark, Stone - magic. Fridge and a nuclear bomb: science. We know how the fridge and the bomb should turn out. We don't have any idea how the other objects should behave because they don't have any rules attached to them (that we already know).

Also, if anyone wants the answer to the sub question: here's a description of the deleted scene they took out. It sounds like if they had left it in the audience wouldn't have bought it, much like the fridge.
 
2012-01-19 10:38:32 PM
http://nukethefridge.com/

That is all.
 
2012-01-19 10:50:54 PM

Blathering Idjut: peterthx: Those with Lucas-derangement syndrome never credit him with things like this.

There's no such thing as "Lucas-derangement syndrome." You just have very bad taste in cinema.


Indiana Jones is not cinema, you child.
 
2012-01-19 10:57:15 PM

Diogenes Teufelsdrockh: Some 'Splainin' To Do: The point about subs running topside is valid, but even then, they tended to be low in the water. When you're talking a trans-oceanic journey, it seems likely that Indy would have died of exposure or been washed overboard at some point.

That wasn't my point. I was wondering why people think he stayed outside the sub in the first place. That scene gave the strong impression that Indy snuck inside the sub any who aren't so literal minded that they can't make the mental jump without everything being shown. The question was: why do people think otherwise?


Because he wasn't in the sub. The sub model even had an articulated Indy puppet lashed to the periscope.
 
2012-01-19 11:22:49 PM

gunther_bumpass: Because he wasn't in the sub. The sub model even had an articulated Indy puppet lashed to the periscope.


Would you mean the model in the deleted scene that was removed from the movie because it didn't make sense while the rest was cut back to imply that he probably went inside? (Probably someone with sense enough to cut that bit of Lucasism out lest it be the original "nuke the fridge.") Being a deleted scene doesn't mean it was intended to always be the plot point unless you also believe that Barbara Streisand in a fetish outfit whipping Indy is also a part of the story.

Simple question for the third time: What is there in the scene as it was in the movie (new window) that gives the idea that he stayed up on top the whole time (even after looking around at where the hatch was shown to be just prior)?

Maybe if he had ridden up on top with the water, the Nazi officer wouldn't have gotten on his case about being dirty and unwashed.

/Well, also in the novelization, but those aren't exactly known to be either a perfect match to the movie or to the ideas of those who made it.
 
2012-01-20 12:21:55 AM

Diogenes Teufelsdrockh: Some 'Splainin' To Do: The point about subs running topside is valid, but even then, they tended to be low in the water. When you're talking a trans-oceanic journey, it seems likely that Indy would have died of exposure or been washed overboard at some point.

That wasn't my point. I was wondering why people think he stayed outside the sub in the first place. That scene gave the strong impression that Indy snuck inside the sub any who aren't so literal minded that they can't make the mental jump without everything being shown. The question was: why do people think otherwise?



Because, given the type of sub that it was, it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for Indy to "sneak on board". He would have been discovered the minute he started turning the hatchway latch.
 
2012-01-20 01:24:01 AM

Diogenes Teufelsdrockh: Would you mean the model in the deleted scene that was removed from the movie because it didn't make sense while the rest was cut back to imply that he probably

-blarglesnipped-



1) Calm the fark down.
2) "When the U-boat dived to head toward its destination, Jones lashed himself to the periscope with his whip, thankful that submarines traveled faster on the surface than deeper underwater."Link (new window)
3)www.theraider.net
4) I've asked the people who shot that miniature sequence and they said that there was indeed an articulated puppet
tied to the periscope.
5) Which is actually visible in the film as the miniature sub is heading towards the pen. He's small, but he's there.
6) You should probably stick to documentaries.

/calmer than you are
 
2012-01-20 02:12:02 AM
If it's okay to hate Indy 4 then it's okay to hate JJ Abrams Star Trek Babies.
 
2012-01-20 04:02:44 AM

Freschel: If it's okay to hate Indy 4 then it's okay to hate JJ Abrams Star Trek Babies.


No. At the very least the latest Star Trek was worth watching. Super 8 was an odd movie. I could have sworn I enjoyed it walking out of the theater, but then I've had absolutely no fond memory of it since.

/Indy 4 was crap.
//Shiat LePoufs fault.
 
2012-01-20 05:32:32 AM
All I know is when I watched this with my nephew when he was 8, all that hate I had for the movie flew out the window. Kind of hard not to be infected by his laughter, excitement, and general sense of awe.
He made a bunch of movies better because he taught me that it was alright to just be entertained again. Made me ask myself if the movies I hated were actually the movies themselves or just me being a pretentious asshole. Turns out, it's mostly just me.

But, then again, I'm getting old. Kind of sucks to grew up and realize you missed a bunch of good stuff because you were too stuck up to just unclench for a minute and let that stick fall out of your ass.
 
2012-01-20 08:30:56 AM
I think most people blamed him anyway because....well....he's George Lucas.
 
2012-01-20 09:25:27 AM

gunga galunga: Actually, I think you have my argument upside down. I'm talking about people who, like myself, grew up watching and enjoying Spielberg and Lucas movies and have become disappointed by what they've done to their own franchises and, unlike myself, make the ridiculous claim that their childhoods have been raped. Whatever that means.


Okay, actually I did miss your argument because you're referring to the debate about making changes to films long after they've been released.

"Raping my childhood" is a little bit overblown but there's little argument that the changes Lucas made to the OT weren't just superficial and actually, in many cases, changed the tone of the films dramatically. The lack of access to good quality versions of the films in original format added to the butthurt.

Personally, I don't care about the ET/ walkie talkie thing. I thik the criticism towards Spielberg came from two camps: gun nuts and film fans worried Spielberg was heading down the Lucas perpetual revision rabbit hole.

Not sure the

gunther_bumpass: Blathering Idjut: peterthx: Those with Lucas-derangement syndrome never credit him with things like this.

There's no such thing as "Lucas-derangement syndrome." You just have very bad taste in cinema.

Indiana Jones is not cinema, you child.


Ah, a snob of a different color. Sorry, but Bergman's "Persona" doesn't get to qualify exclusively as "cinema" just because it's boring and opaque. Pop culture films also meet the test. That's not a corn-cob up your arse, it's your semantic game.
 
2012-01-20 09:28:36 AM

colinspooky: Like it matters. It was a movie. Big balls rolling down corridors is suddenly normal, as is all the other crazy things that happen in escapist movies. Lighten up peeps


No.
 
2012-01-20 09:29:57 AM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: colinspooky: Like it matters. It was a movie. Big balls rolling down corridors is suddenly normal, as is all the other crazy things that happen in escapist movies. Lighten up peeps

Exactly. Nazis melting? A pagan priest ripping hearts out of live people and not killing them? Falling from a Ford Trimotor on a liferaft and not shattering your spine? Totally realistic and beyond reproach. But a lead-lined refrigerator being tossed by a nuclear explosion with a guy surviving? Totally bogus! THIS MOVIE SUCKS!


Yes.
 
2012-01-20 09:38:11 AM

I_C_Weener: alwaysjaded: George, I'm pretty sure they've been blaming you even without your permission.

I've seen that movie twice and can't ever seem to remember one thing about it. And not in that Fark "my mind blocked out the travesty" meme way. The only thing I seem to remember is the pyramid at the end.

I was more upset at the monkey swinging scene...and the fire army ants that eat people faster than snow melts in a microwave. In theory, a lead lined fridge might protect you from the radiation...not the blast unless it was secured to the ground...instead of, you know...being blown 3 kilometers away. And if he survived the radiation, they still have to find him. I mean, if he gets out and walks to safety, he dies like those in Hiroshima. Basically, what I'm saying is that if he hadn't shot first in Mos Eisley, he would never had been in such a desperate situation to need to do this film.


He should have paid his bill to Jabba. No responsibility I tell ya.
 
2012-01-20 10:02:42 AM

gunther_bumpass: Indiana Jones is not cinema, you child.


Yes it is.

/went to film school with plenty of pretentious cinemaphiles
//they're annoying
 
2012-01-20 10:27:21 AM

Mugato: gunther_bumpass: Indiana Jones is not cinema, you child.

Yes it is.

/went to film school with plenty of pretentious cinemaphiles
//they're annoying


Yes, people that went to film school are annoying.

Toxic Avenger IS cinema.
 
2012-01-20 01:33:39 PM

Blathering Idjut: "Raping my childhood" is a little bit overblown but there's little argument that the changes Lucas made to the OT weren't just superficial and actually, in many cases, changed the tone of the films dramatically.


See? That's just it. Star Wars, Empire, Jedi...they are STILL the same films. What changed dramatically? The Han/Greedo thing? Han is still a badass in my book. Even then, it doesn't impact the overall story of the first film, which does NOT hinge in any way on Han shooting first.
 
2012-01-20 02:43:01 PM

Mugato: gunther_bumpass: Indiana Jones is not cinema, you child.

Yes it is.

/went to film school with plenty of pretentious cinemaphiles
//they're annoying


Get bent. If you can't see the difference in intent between Indiana Jones IV and say, Truffaut, you're not even trying.

And yes, I'd say Toxic Avenger is probably more 'cinema' than Indy IV, only because it wasn't made by a giant team with hundreds of millions of dollars. It's more honest.
 
2012-01-20 04:06:55 PM

gunther_bumpass: Mugato: gunther_bumpass: Indiana Jones is not cinema, you child.

Yes it is.

/went to film school with plenty of pretentious cinemaphiles
//they're annoying

Get bent. If you can't see the difference in intent between Indiana Jones IV and say, Truffaut, you're not even trying.

And yes, I'd say Toxic Avenger is probably more 'cinema' than Indy IV, only because it wasn't made by a giant team with hundreds of millions of dollars. It's more honest.


Difference in intent does not change the definition of the word "cinema".

It's like saying "That's not just a movie, it's a FILM."
 
2012-01-20 04:35:52 PM

bigmattress: Difference in intent does not change the definition of the word "cinema".


Sure, tell me what the definition of "cinema" is and I'll be happy to talk about it.
 
2012-01-20 04:46:09 PM

Mugato: bigmattress: Difference in intent does not change the definition of the word "cinema".

Sure, tell me what the definition of "cinema" is and I'll be happy to talk about it.


Hey, I'm with you.

"According to Webster:

Definition of CINEMA
1a : motion picture -usually used attributively
b : a motion-picture theater
2a : movies; especially : the film industry
b : the art or technique of making motion pictures"

Nowhere does it say that a movie's intent, or budget, or amount of people working on it can change this definition.
As you said, that is what those annoying film school students (used to be one myself, though hopefully not annoying) try to infer.

Now, is there a difference between arthouse cinema and popcorn cinema? Obviously. That's where that word "attributively" comes into play, I think.
That's where Michael Bay and Ingmar Bergman are nowhere near each other.
 
2012-01-20 05:06:08 PM

bigmattress: Now, is there a difference between arthouse cinema and popcorn cinema? Obviously


Sure, but it's all in how it's executed. Like Raiders of the Lost Ark is a movie about a guy fighting Nazis while looking for a relic that farking melts everyone who looks at it. But it's executed perfectly. Every shot, every use of cinematography is perfect. Jaws is about three guys hunting a shark. But it's a perfectly executed movie. It's not about what it's about but how it goes about it.
 
2012-01-20 05:12:37 PM

Mugato: bigmattress: Now, is there a difference between arthouse cinema and popcorn cinema? Obviously

Sure, but it's all in how it's executed. Like Raiders of the Lost Ark is a movie about a guy fighting Nazis while looking for a relic that farking melts everyone who looks at it. But it's executed perfectly. Every shot, every use of cinematography is perfect. Jaws is about three guys hunting a shark. But it's a perfectly executed movie. It's not about what it's about but how it goes about it.


Yeah, I'm not arguing with you. I agree. I'm not saying content, but intent. Bergman tried to say something with his movies, Bay just wants to blow everything up.

Transformers will never be arthouse cinema. It will also never be in the same category as Raiders, because it is nowhere near perfectly executed.

Cinema is cinema. French cinema is not sci fi cinema, that's all I'm saying. To say something isn't "cinema" itself is silly, in my opinion. But if you try to tell me Transformers isn't French new wave cinema, well, that makes perfect sense.
 
2012-01-21 08:44:22 AM
Virtual Pariah

What about the rest of the film?

Ehh.
I expect over the top in an Indy movie. Just couldn't take Mutt....

And in the biggest WTF moment on the intertubes he was the one of the parts of the film that Red Letter Media really liked o.O
 
2012-01-21 01:34:34 PM
The melting nazis and the ice-box scenes made my insides wiggle with joy.
 
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