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(Washington Post) NewsFlash White House announces it will reject Keystone Pipeline. John Boehner really wishes he had control over his investment portfolio right about now   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 356
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6505 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Jan 2012 at 2:17 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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2012-01-18 02:59:28 PM

WhyteRaven74: xanadian: So...what's the problem? TFA isn't very clear about that.

Passing over an aquifer that happens to water a lot of farmland. Like a few states' worth of farmland.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogallala_Aquifer (new window) Contaminating this aquifer would have global consequences.
 
2012-01-18 02:59:55 PM

imontheinternet: I love watching role-reversals of the party diehards. When Keystone comes up, Republicans become devout Keynesians, arguing the virtues of creating jobs through government infrastructure spending, while Democrats counter that those jobs are temporary and a waste of money.

Pardon the interruption. The circus may continue now.


On what planet is this government infrastructure spending?
 
2012-01-18 03:01:40 PM

HeadLever: By the way, go ahead and tell a representative from US Pipe or American Spiroweld that they only make specalty fittings.


Why would I tell them that? I didn't claim they just make specialty fittings, I just said they aren't capable of handling the massive order of piping at a reasonable price and/or within a reasonable time.

If they were, TransCanada would have gone with them.
 
2012-01-18 03:01:42 PM

unyon: MaudlinMutantMollusk: unyon: GaryPDX: No worries. Harper will have it all sold to China in a couple months. (new window). All Canada has to do is pipe the oil over to Prince Rupert port to the waiting Chinese tankers.

Brilliant move, Obama.

By the way: If I were in charge, you motherfarkers wouldn't get one goddamned drop until you recognized our legitimate arctic sovereignty claims. If you can't be a supportive neighbour, then fark you. Maybe the Chinese would appreciate a new friend.

You wanna make nice with Canada and have access to our resources? Be a better friend.

Don't make us come up there...

It's -30C where I am right now. Good luck firing up that diesel Abrams. Even we don't go outside in this. Canada has built-in defenses.


1) Never get involved in a land war in Asia.
2) Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line.
3) Never invade Canada in the middle of winter.
 
2012-01-18 03:03:20 PM

sprawl15: Our transmission pipelines don't handle raw tar sand crude, or the much higher pressures involved in this pipeline.


What the hell are you taking about? Steel pipe from American Spiroweld can go up to several thousand psi. Pretending that we don't make this pipe here in the US is beyond stupid.
 
2012-01-18 03:04:39 PM

sprawl15: I didn't claim they just make specialty fittings, I just said they aren't capable of handling the massive order of piping at a reasonable price and/or within a reasonable time.


Finally, you get around to the real reason. Bout time.
 
2012-01-18 03:04:40 PM
I live in Nebraska. Probably one of the most satisfying things I experienced this year was watching all the drill-baby-drill conservatives around here lose their shiat when suddenly it was going to be THEIR property and environment that might be impacted. Funny, that.
 
2012-01-18 03:05:36 PM

Mart Laar's beard shaver: OMG, STOP THE PIPELINE BEFORE SOMETHING BAD HAPPENS ...

[upload.wikimedia.org image 640x415]


Those are natural gas pipelines (which is the only viable way to transport the product), not oil pipelines. Don't compare apples to oranges.
 
2012-01-18 03:05:40 PM

GameSprocket: Oh heck, I'll just try posting a list of events in the last couple of years. (From the blacked out wiki)

...wall of predominately unrelated gas pipeline problems


Thanks. Thanks for that.
 
2012-01-18 03:05:43 PM
I have few doubts that Keystone will be allowed after the re-application. But there are real alarm bells sounding in Canada about the US political scene's deep divisions and difficulties in doing business there. When the Liberal party was in charge in Canada, pushing trade with India and China was a priority, and I think the Conservatives have finally woken up to the idea that China represents the future in terms of trade and prosperity for Canada. It's a big change from five years ago when they were much more US-oriented, and (IMO) a welcome change.
 
2012-01-18 03:05:46 PM

canyoneer: what_now: I'm sorry...what??

Under NAFTA, TCPL can - and probably will - sue. As I understand it, TCPL has already made agreements with Gulf Coast refiners and spent a ton of money on licensing and studies. They'll at least get their money out of Nebraska and the feds, and could probably win if they want to push the issue on building the pipeline itself. It's possible that TCPL will end up building the pipeline anyway, and American taxpayers will be on the hook for the court costs.

They'll argue expropriation.
...


Sweet! I want to start a fishing guide business, but requiring passports for everyone is a real PITA business-wise. Maybe I can just force Canada to turn over all of its territory to the U.S. in order to alleviate that problem. We don't really need a whole country to the North of us anyway.
 
2012-01-18 03:07:02 PM
GO TO HELL, STUPID LIBS

GO TO HELLL
 
2012-01-18 03:08:12 PM

GaryPDX: No worries. Harper will have it all sold to China in a couple months. (new window). All Canada has to do is pipe the oil over to Prince Rupert port to the waiting Chinese tankers.

Brilliant move, Obama.


Yeah, no.

There are upwards of 4,000 people registered to speak in the environmental review of the Northern Gateway including celebrities and politicians, and despite scorched-earth right-wingers who don't give a damn about the environment (which unfortunately includes our current prime minister) thinking Gateway can be pushed through, the fact is if they try the First Nations up there will stop it in its tracks. One, single, solitary First Nations chief has said "Okay!" and his nation has said "fark you" and locked him out of his office for it. If that pipeline is being built, it will probably find a wall of people waiting at the BC/Alberta border.

If that oil goes anywhere, it's going to wind up going east. I'd rather see Keystone done, personally, since it makes a little more sense (capacity is available in the Gulf refineries, it's more central, etc.) - or a refinery or two built in Alberta, but that's stupid expensive.

Mind you, this is all still speculation, since no decision has actually been made as of this writing. =P
 
2012-01-18 03:08:56 PM
"We have the weirdest Boehner right now."

images.politico.com
 
2012-01-18 03:09:09 PM
This is a good idea because:

We can buy more foreign oil so we can help out the economies of S America and the Middle East. I for one love Hugo Chavez and the Wahabbis of the gulf.

If there's less oil on the Market, the price increases. I hate when gas is below $4/gal.

If we import oil to provide electricity by burning it in deisel factories, we can increase the price of all manufactured goods and our energy bills will also increase. 2 for 1, I love it.

As a nation that values Hollywood more than Engineering, we cannot provide Engineering controls to a pipe to prevent an accident. We as a nation can't understand this because act out emotionally before analyzing a problem and providing solutions.

Oil is bad, manufacuring is bad, jobs are bad. Global warming is bad, math is bad, globalization is bad, must vote for Obama.... Follow crowds... vote for a free ride...
 
2012-01-18 03:09:16 PM

Wicked Chinchilla: ringersol: Mart Laar's Beard Shaver: "OMG, STOP THE PIPELINE BEFORE SOMETHING BAD HAPPENS ..."

... did you just post a map of *natural gas* pipelines?
You do realize those are completely different from oil pipelines, right?

Not only that, but the sludge they are pumping is incredibly viscous. I have heard it compared to peanut butter in consistency. You can't just pump it through regular old pipe. And it has to be heated the whole way.


Ok you dolts, time for an information bomb! What would be travelling down that pipeline is UPGRADED crude. Basically it's already partially refined. For example the crude that comes out of Syncrude (the largest oilsand miner 500k bbl/day) is of a HIGHER quality than the stuff coming out of Saudi Arabia.

No one is going to pour pure bitumen into the pipeline, that wouldn't work.

You know what? Screw it! Hey Asia just start sending the tankers, don't worry if new production can't keep up we'll just shut down some of the stuff that makes its way currently to places like Chicago.
 
2012-01-18 03:10:30 PM

Mike_LowELL: GO TO HELL, STUPID LIBS

GO TO HELLL
Put me on the permanent ban list, please!


FTFY
 
2012-01-18 03:11:10 PM

YixilTesiphon: On what planet is this government infrastructure spending?


Nevermind. I think I had a stroke for a second there.
 
2012-01-18 03:11:22 PM

trappedspirit: GameSprocket: Oh heck, I'll just try posting a list of events in the last couple of years. (From the blacked out wiki)

...wall of predominately unrelated gas pipeline problems

Thanks. Thanks for that.


Hey, it was in response to an unrelated map of gas pipelines, so that makes it relevant.

I count 11 oil pipeline accidents in the list.
 
2012-01-18 03:11:25 PM

HeadLever: sprawl15: I didn't claim they just make specialty fittings, I just said they aren't capable of handling the massive order of piping at a reasonable price and/or within a reasonable time.

Finally, you get around to the real reason. Bout time.


I consider any industry incapable of competing - especially with the advantage of not having to deal with international shipping of such bulky/heavy objects - to be irrelevant. I don't care if they have Jesus himself building pipes out of spring water and pure grain alcohol, if they can't compete against handicapped competition, they don't matter. Your anger doesn't make them competitive or relevant.

Nor does it make your original claim - that the majority of the piping used in this construction is from domestic sources - true.
 
2012-01-18 03:11:46 PM

Loose Spoons: [www.mnn.com image 530x360]
If we add one more pipeline, it will completely destroy our country.


www.pipeline101.com

See that big hole in South Dakota and western Nebraska? That's where the huge aquifer that a ton of agriculture in the region relies on, and that's where they wanted to put this pipeline. Right through the middle of where everyone else had the sense not to put one because of the implications of an accident. Obama just told KeystoneXL to go around like everyone else and reapply to build the pipeline.
 
2012-01-18 03:12:08 PM

Wook: This is a good idea because:

We can buy more foreign oil so we can help out the economies of S America and the Middle East. I for one love Hugo Chavez and the Wahabbis of the gulf.

If there's less oil on the Market, the price increases. I hate when gas is below $4/gal.

If we import oil to provide electricity by burning it in deisel factories, we can increase the price of all manufactured goods and our energy bills will also increase. 2 for 1, I love it.

As a nation that values Hollywood more than Engineering, we cannot provide Engineering controls to a pipe to prevent an accident. We as a nation can't understand this because act out emotionally before analyzing a problem and providing solutions.

Oil is bad, manufacuring is bad, jobs are bad. Global warming is bad, math is bad, globalization is bad, must vote for Obama.... Follow crowds... vote for a free ride...


not using american made pipes is bad. temporary construction jobs versus specialized, long-term refinery jobs is bad. supporting the chinese economy to export us more cheap crap and subsidized steel is bad. foreign companies pressuring landowners to sell right of way and threatening eminent domain before it is approved is bad. bad bad bad. leroy brown? baddest man in the whole damn town. next to me.
 
2012-01-18 03:13:00 PM
How can a bunch of companies that sell the same thing all offer a 'low price guarantee' ?
 
2012-01-18 03:14:33 PM

YixilTesiphon: Yay, let's deny a source of jobs to an economically depressed area of the country because of easily solved environmental concerns!

/Ever been to Beaumont/Port Arthur?
//shipping oil through the country for export isn't stupid
///ever heard of entrepot?


At least you admit that the US wouldn't be the beneficiary in this deal. I like paying nearly $3/gallon for gas thank you very much.
 
2012-01-18 03:14:56 PM

GameSprocket: Sweet! I want to start a fishing guide business, but requiring passports for everyone is a real PITA business-wise. Maybe I can just force Canada to turn over all of its territory to the U.S. in order to alleviate that problem. We don't really need a whole country to the North of us anyway.


As I understand it (and i could be wrong), under NAFTA rules a company can not only argue expropriation, but can also argue precedent - that is, if American companies can build and operate pipelines in the United States and Nebraska, then a Canadian company (for example) must also be allowed to build and operate pipelines in the U.S. and Nebraska. That's how some American toxic waste companies won their cases against Mexico and Canada, as I recall. Not sure about the passport thingy. For commercial purposes, there aren't really three North American countries anymore, just one big happy trade zone. Remember when California tried to ban a fuel additive produced by a Canadian company? California lost, and had to eat the court costs to boot, eh?
 
2012-01-18 03:15:22 PM

GaryPDX: No worries. Harper will have it all sold to China in a couple months. (new window). All Canada has to do is pipe the oil over to Prince Rupert port to the waiting Chinese tankers.

.



Maybe Harper will sign a pact to cede land and right of way to the engineering Chinese to let them build the pipeline themselves, and even have Chinese military bases to guard the pipeline.

That way China could have the oil, refine it and pollute where they please, and the US would never fathom another Tory government in Canada.
 
2012-01-18 03:16:59 PM

Zeno-25: Loose Spoons: [www.mnn.com image 530x360]
If we add one more pipeline, it will completely destroy our country.

[www.pipeline101.com image 550x328]

See that big hole in South Dakota and western Nebraska? That's where the huge aquifer that a ton of agriculture in the region relies on, and that's where they wanted to put this pipeline. Right through the middle of where everyone else had the sense not to put one because of the implications of an accident. Obama just told KeystoneXL to go around like everyone else and reapply to build the pipeline.


I live right across the river from Wood River in St. Louis and we've been using Canadian crude for a long time and as a result paying some of the cheapest prices in the nation.

People who think this pipeline would benefit St. Louis in anyway is a moron.
 
2012-01-18 03:18:13 PM

unyon: GaryPDX: No worries. Harper will have it all sold to China in a couple months. (new window). All Canada has to do is pipe the oil over to Prince Rupert port to the waiting Chinese tankers.

Brilliant move, Obama.

You really are gullible. I've worked in and around the Alberta Oil Sands for the last 30 years, have supported pipeline activity for the last 15, and Transcanada is a client of mine right now. So maybe let me help you out:

This is a straight up bluff to force the US government's hand, to leverage the fear of people (frightened people just like you) into put pressure on your government to acquiesce. On behalf of all Canadians, thanks for taking the bait.

There is no pipeline to Rupert from Fort Mac. There will likely eventually be one, but today there isn't. Hint: It's a substantial ways to go, across several ranges of the Canadian Rockies, and will be very expensive to build.

Pipelines get re-routed all the time. You should see the map of pipelines going to the US- the routes make no sense, until you overlay them on Caribou migration routes and wolverine habitat. This little Sand Hills diversion is a meaningful exercise environmentally, but in the grand scheme of things, will likely only delay the project about 6 months, tops.

Trust me, you'll get your dose of sweet, sweet crude soon enough. You're our #1 customer, and we want to keep you happy, eventually.

You can unbunch your scooby doo panties now, lil fella.


media.tumblr.com

Considering it was Ali's 70th b-day, that's a beatdown even Ali would look in awe with.
 
2012-01-18 03:19:49 PM
Anti-Coal
Anti-Oil
Anti-Nuclear

images.sodahead.com
 
2012-01-18 03:20:31 PM

canyoneer: GameSprocket: Sweet! I want to start a fishing guide business, but requiring passports for everyone is a real PITA business-wise. Maybe I can just force Canada to turn over all of its territory to the U.S. in order to alleviate that problem. We don't really need a whole country to the North of us anyway.

As I understand it (and i could be wrong), under NAFTA rules a company can not only argue expropriation, but can also argue precedent - that is, if American companies can build and operate pipelines in the United States and Nebraska, then a Canadian company (for example) must also be allowed to build and operate pipelines in the U.S. and Nebraska. That's how some American toxic waste companies won their cases against Mexico and Canada, as I recall. Not sure about the passport thingy. For commercial purposes, there aren't really three North American countries anymore, just one big happy trade zone. Remember when California tried to ban a fuel additive produced by a Canadian company? California lost, and had to eat the court costs to boot, eh?


Would an American company seeking to build the pipeline be subject to this approval processes?
 
2012-01-18 03:21:46 PM

Mildot: [images.sodahead.com image 350x350]


Wow, he managed to unite the GOP and the Tea Party? Well done!
 
2012-01-18 03:22:16 PM

mrshowrules: Magorn: unyon: GaryPDX: No worries. Harper will have it all sold to China in a couple months. (new window). All Canada has to do is pipe the oil over to Prince Rupert port to the waiting Chinese tankers.

Brilliant move, Obama.

By the way: If I were in charge, you motherfarkers wouldn't get one goddamned drop until you recognized our legitimate arctic sovereignty claims. If you can't be a supportive neighbour, then fark you. Maybe the Chinese would appreciate a new friend.

You wanna make nice with Canada and have access to our resources? Be a better friend.

Sorry you gave any claim you had to the Arctic to your Indians in exchange for the very tar sands you are hoping to sell us. You don't get to take Nunavut back now just because it's suddenly a lot more valuable than you thought it was when you pawned it off on the natives (That's OUR move, we copyrighted it in the Black Hills of SD).


Oh, and seeing as we own the only remaining Navy of any consequence in the world, that would be OUR Northwest Passage, btw (see the famous Admiralty Law precedent of "Rule Britania")

and once you convert those Navy ships to run on ethanol, you will be all set.


The important ones use this for fuel:
0.tqn.com

much more efficent than tar sands (though for the love of god don't google "pitchblende" and figure out where we get most of THAT from)
 
2012-01-18 03:22:38 PM

AmorousRedDragon: unyon: By the way: If I were in charge, you motherfarkers wouldn't get one goddamned drop until you recognized our legitimate arctic sovereignty claims. If you can't be a supportive neighbour, then fark you. Maybe the Chinese would appreciate a new friend.

You wanna make nice with Canada and have access to our resources? Be a better friend.

You know what happens to Canada if we get into a fight with China, right? Ever play Fallout?


Came for the Fallout reference.
 
2012-01-18 03:23:08 PM

Mart Laar's beard shaver: I, having an education, are very much aware...


Awesome.
 
2012-01-18 03:23:16 PM
This is just a minor delay. I'm sure that President Santorum will approve this next year.
 
2012-01-18 03:24:11 PM

Mildot: Anti-Coal
Anti-Oil
Anti-Nuclear

[images.sodahead.com image 350x350]


Look at how stupid you look.

Didn't Obama even talk about the government helping to fund starting up some nuclear power plants?

Why yes...yes he did
 
2012-01-18 03:24:29 PM

Magorn: (though for the love of god don't google "pitchblende" and figure out where we get most of THAT from)


...blended pitchers, I would assume. Don't we import most of that from Cuba?
 
2012-01-18 03:25:09 PM
As a Nebraska resident I'm against this pipeline. That is all.
 
2012-01-18 03:25:27 PM

Magorn: The important ones use this for fuel:
0.tqn.com

much more efficent than tar sands (though for the love of god don't google "pitchblende" and figure out where we get most of THAT from)


upload.wikimedia.org

This is better.
 
2012-01-18 03:27:35 PM

Carth: Would an American company seeking to build the pipeline be subject to this approval processes?


As I understand it, the State Department has rejected the pipeline. An American company seeking to build and operate a pipeline wouldn't involve the State Department, but probably the FERC. Research FERC's role in this whole imbroglio - there are some interesting players involved. The current head of the FERC commission was on the commission when the original go-ahead was granted. At least that's what I recall.

At any rate, it seems likely that TCPL will sue and at least recoup all their costs, and perhaps some potential future revenues. The latter could be a lot of moolah.
 
2012-01-18 03:28:09 PM

sprawl15: I consider any industry incapable of competing


The industry is what it is. Shipping from China/Inda is more expensive, but our labor, environmental safeguards and quality standards are more than enough to outstrip this 'handycap' go take a look at supplier info. China pipe is always less expensive. In this case, these domestic companies are more than capable of producing what is needed. The question, as you finally recognized, is cost.

You dumb insinuation that we can't produce bulk quantities of pipe is just that. Don't forget that Transcanada is currently stockpiling this pipe to help even out the demand.

Also, as an Engineer, our first order of buisness on pipeline jobs is to typically set the quality bar high enough to ensure that you weed out 95% of the crap China Pipe. It is not hard to do. In addition, many of our clients specifically disallow manufacturs such as Star from even being an biddable option
 
2012-01-18 03:28:09 PM

DisposableSavior: AmorousRedDragon: unyon: By the way: If I were in charge, you motherfarkers wouldn't get one goddamned drop until you recognized our legitimate arctic sovereignty claims. If you can't be a supportive neighbour, then fark you. Maybe the Chinese would appreciate a new friend.

You wanna make nice with Canada and have access to our resources? Be a better friend.

You know what happens to Canada if we get into a fight with China, right? Ever play Fallout?

Came for the Fallout reference.


Unfortunately, every time I try to play Fallout 3, the game stops responding the the mouse and keyboard after a few minutes. Thanks a lot, Bethesda, you are making me miss out on political points!
 
2012-01-18 03:28:38 PM
Canadians....like the retarded lil' brother who keeps barging into the room when the adults are talking.

lifeasahuman.com
 
2012-01-18 03:30:46 PM

Mrtraveler01: YixilTesiphon: Yay, let's deny a source of jobs to an economically depressed area of the country because of easily solved environmental concerns!

/Ever been to Beaumont/Port Arthur?
//shipping oil through the country for export isn't stupid
///ever heard of entrepot?

At least you admit that the US wouldn't be the beneficiary in this deal. I like paying nearly $3/gallon for gas thank you very much.


If you're just going to willfully misinterpret what I write, why read it in the first place?
 
2012-01-18 03:31:16 PM
Who cares if it's being shipped to South America or China in the end. If they pipe it through the US it means more job stability from the infrastructure, land use taxes, port jobs, refinery and pipeline jobs that supporting the pipeline would require. Yes I agree they should avoid the Nebraska aquifer, but outside of that concern I don't see what negative affects the pipeline would have had. There are pipelines ALL OVER this country, why is this one such a big deal. Killing this pipeline isn't going to make Exxon and Shell stop mining Canadian oil sands. I would rather get my oil from Canada than the middle east.

The US was a net EXPORTER of gasoline last year by the way, so even if they ship it to the gulf coast to be refined and shipped elsewhere at least it is generating work to do the refining and transport opperations.
 
2012-01-18 03:31:22 PM
dick lugar is already running on the OBAMA JUST KILLED 20000 JOBS platform complete with stock footage of beer gutted men in hard hats with fwoney faces.. Not one mention of the other side of the story.
 
2012-01-18 03:31:34 PM
I've read a handful of (Canadian and US) articles in the past hour or so and it seems to me that Obama hasn't actually rejected Keystone, he's rejected the demand that its approval be fast tracked without completed EIAs for the new route. Am I missing something?
 
2012-01-18 03:33:01 PM

HeadLever: Also, as an Engineer, our first order of buisness on pipeline jobs is to typically set the quality bar high enough to ensure that you weed out 95% of the crap China Pipe.


You'll be thrilled to know, then, that the PHMSA has waived US safety standards on the thickness of the Chinese pipe.

HeadLever: You dumb insinuation that we can't produce bulk quantities of pipe is just that.


A-I-D-A. Attention, Interest, Decision, Action. Get mad you son of a bitaches. get mad! You want to know what it takes to sell steel pipe? It takes BRASS BALLS to sell steel pipe. Go and do likewise, gents. Money's out there. You pick it up, it's yours. You don't, I got no sympathy for you.
 
2012-01-18 03:33:08 PM
"IT"S FOR THE ENVIRONMENT".

Except that oil is going to get sold no matter what we do. If we don't build the pipeline and have it fall under our EPA regulations, the oil will be sold to China who seem to be going out of their way to see how much pollution that can generate.

Plus there are the jobs it will create. Estimates are as high as 250,000 new jobs. How much will someone who can't feed their kids care about the environment?
 
2012-01-18 03:33:27 PM
Whew, i was worried we would have to stop buying oil from countries that hate us.
 
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