Silly subby, those laws do not apply to Democrats.

Don't care who it is. No campaigning from the pulpit. Yes, I know what Ebenezer Baptist Church is. Strip 'em anyways. But apply it across the board, evenly and to all groups using a church as a political tool.

I won't hold my breath.

knbber2: Silly subby, those laws do not apply to Democrats.

As a liberal I say they do. Anyone who tries to campaign or influence voters to vote a certain way should have their tax exempt status stripped. Both sides. Do you feel the same way? Because it happens much more on your side of the isle than it does mine.


\not subby
\\feeding troll

knbber2: Silly subby, those laws do not apply to Democrats either party.

Remove tax exempt status from ALL churches. There's no reason that selling spiritual snake oil should prevent you from paying taxes.

Hobodeluxe: Not news

I don't think Valerie Jarrett is a pastor, FWIW.

Hobodeluxe: Nabb1: Hobodeluxe: Not news

I don't think Valerie Jarrett is a pastor, FWIW.

You're right she's not. which actually puts her on the right side of this law that the IRS chooses not to enforce. and she wasn't telling them who to vote for like these pastors do. she was simply speaking and they had a voter registration drive. She wasn't speaking with the divine authority a pastor has over a flock telling them it would be a sin to elect a Democrat like some of these republican pastors and priests do.

Don't you think if any politician or political figure is allowed to stump from the pulpit before a congregation during Sunday services, it certainly seems to have the tacit approval of the pastor or other religious figurehead? It seems to me if it is incorporated into the actual religious services, that kind of crosses the line, IMO.

Hobodeluxe: she wasn't telling them who to vote for like these pastors do

Nabb being an unapologetic shill aside, this statement is disingenuous. She very clearly indicated which political party was causing problems. That's an implicit endorsement for the other major party.

Hobodeluxe: Nabb1: Hobodeluxe: Nabb1: Hobodeluxe: Not news

I don't think Valerie Jarrett is a pastor, FWIW.

You're right she's not. which actually puts her on the right side of this law that the IRS chooses not to enforce. and she wasn't telling them who to vote for like these pastors do. she was simply speaking and they had a voter registration drive. She wasn't speaking with the divine authority a pastor has over a flock telling them it would be a sin to elect a Democrat like some of these republican pastors and priests do.

Don't you think if any politician or political figure is allowed to stump from the pulpit before a congregation during Sunday services, it certainly seems to have the tacit approval of the pastor or other religious figurehead? It seems to me if it is incorporated into the actual religious services, that kind of crosses the line, IMO.

and what president hasn't done that?

Well, I think you need to look at the context, which was why I said "stump from the pulpit." The mere appearance of a political figure is rather mild, but I think it would depend on the nature of the speech being given. If it's openly politicking and not really about faith or sectarian matters, I think we can agree it's not the best place for that. And, she's not the President, either. She's one of his staff. Imagine Karl Rove appearing before a congregation eight years ago and saying the Democrats were making us all less safe and then holding a voter registration drive after the services. I wouldn't think that appropriate and neither would you.

Occam's Chainsaw: Hobodeluxe: she wasn't telling them who to vote for like these pastors do

Nabb being an unapologetic shill aside,

Aw, bless your heart.

Are you sure, subby, that you don't mean "flouting" rather than "flaunting"? A lot of people do nowadays.

flaunt:
1 Display (something) ostentatiously, esp. in order to provoke envy or admiration or to show defiance.
2 Dress or behave in a sexually provocative way.

flout:
1 To show contempt for; scorn: flout a law; behavior that flouted convention.
2 To be scornful.
3 n. A contemptuous action or remark; ...

Usage note, flaunt:
Usage Note: Flaunt as a transitive verb means "to exhibit ostentatiously": She flaunted her wealth. To flout is "to show contempt for": She flouted the proprieties. For some time now flaunt has been used in the sense "to show contempt for," even by educated users of English. This usage is still widely seen as erroneous and is best avoided.

Source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/flaunt

Churches are flouting the laws that prevent them from engaging in political campaigning in exchange for charitable status or religious tax exemption. They might be flaunting their ability to get away with it, but this is not wise, as they might not.

There is a long history of churches being political, for good and for evil. They are often one of the few instutitions of society that partially escape political repression and control and thus serve to assist the down-trodden. During the days of slavery, black churches were not only social and moral support to slaves but important stations on the Underground Railroad to freedom in the North or Canada. Hymns were used as signals to slaves--a hymn about going to "Heaven" was sometimes code for a station on the way to Canada ("Heaven" because slave hunters couldn't follow the slaves there, unlike some of the Northern states and seize them as "runaway property".) Churches also played a major role under Jim Crow and Segregation, and during the Civil Rights Movement.

There is a tendancy among liberals to condone such "political" activities in the name of freedom, equality, human rights, political rights, the enforcement of the values and letter of the Constitution, etc.

On the other hand, actions to violate the rights and values of the American liberal democracy are often vilified when supported under cover of churches, such as the right wing and anti-democratic role played by say, the Mormon Church, Baptist missionaries, etc., and other religious right supporters of the tyrannies of the developing world and would-be tyrants in the USA.

Both right wing and liberal, Republican and Democratic, libertarian and authoritarian churches have played politics from the beginning, flouting the Second Amendment to the Constitution by attempting to impose an Establishment of Religion (like those which still exist in Europe and elsehwhere) or meddling with elections, offices, laws, and constitutional interpretations, as well as activism which can range from violent seditition (common on the very far right) to peaceful passive resistence (sit-ins, marches, etc.) and civil disobedience common on the liberal left during the Fifties and Sixties, partly through the inspiration of people like Gandhi and Ralph Waldo Emerson.

I see this has pretty much been said already, but the woman speaking wasn't speaking as an official of the church. Yes, it was an implicit endorsement, and yes, they probably should be more careful about what is said in their venue, but this still isn't nearly as flagrant nor as bad as the explicit endorsement of a candidate because "god wants you to" as has been claimed by numerous other churches around the country.

Hobodeluxe: Indirectly she indicated her opinion and yes she speaks for her her party . Not for God. This is not the same as a pastor telling his flock that to vote for a candidate would be committing a mortal sin as the Catholics did Kerry. As Republicans Pastors do to any Democrat because they are baby killers and tolerant of gays. She's not breaking any rules here. Political figures have spoke at churches all along. The law is having to do with pastors and the church directing it's members.

and just because someone is invited to speak at a church it doesn't automatically make the speaker's views or opinions that of the church.

A little thought experiment, o ye of finding-little-fault: 2016 rolls around, and Mike Huckabee decides to take another stab at it. Before formally announcing his candidacy, he is invited to visit Saddleback Church and speak. He informs the congregation that their very livelihoods are threatened by having a Democrat in the White House, and thanks congressional Republicans for protecting hard-working Americans from an overreaching government. Rick Warren throws in occasional Amens as necessary. They follow up with a voting drive.

All kosher?

this got greenlit huh?

So it occurred to me earlier from seeing this story that there is a way to make PACs even more nasty - just make up a church and run ads like a PAC. Therefore absolutely no disclosure or regulation of any action done by the PAC, but you can run as many campaign ads you want, saying whatever you want. It's win/win. And if the government forces action against you, just word your defense in such a way that if they rule against you, they rule against all churches participating in any way in politics.

Occam's Chainsaw: A little thought experiment, o ye of finding-little-fault: 2016 rolls around, and Mike Huckabee decides to take another stab at it. Before formally announcing his candidacy, he is invited to visit Saddleback Church and speak. He informs the congregation that their very livelihoods are threatened by having a Democrat in the White House, and thanks congressional Republicans for protecting hard-working Americans from an overreaching government. Rick Warren throws in occasional Amens as necessary. They follow up with a voting drive.

All kosher?

Has he formed an Exploratory Committee yet?

Hobodeluxe: The republican churches have been doing this for years. why do you think Bush gave them faith based initiative money? he got their membership lists from them to give to the RNC that's why.

So if the whole faith-based initiatives thing is a weasel move around separation of church and state...and I think it is...why didn't Obama disband and de-fund it instead of renaming it and expanding its scope?

It's almost as if one party will biatch and moan about the other party's power grab until they get control, at which point they will expand it to suit their own partisan needs.

Weakly Standard...

I wonder which way this one is going to go.

I_Am_Weasel: Weakly Standard...

Is there anything factually incorrect about the information the Standard used in their opinion piece? Big boys and girls can read editorials from the Weekly Standard, the New York Times, the Nation, National Review, Reason, Mother Jones and so forth, digest the diverse information and form opinions accordingly.

But if your delicate and nuanced sensibilities are so grievously offended, here's a link from the local CBS affiliate.

You can't fight city hall and you can't beat the IRS. Fools.

Make them pay taxes. No good reason to give them a pass anyway. Why should government subsidize religion when we claim separation of church and state?

Occam's Chainsaw: Don't care who it is. No campaigning from the pulpit. Yes, I know what Ebenezer Baptist Church is. Strip 'em anyways. But apply it across the board, evenly and to all groups using a church as a political tool.

I won't hold my breath.

Amen

brantgoose: There is a long history of churches being political, for good and for evil. They are often one of the few instutitions of society that partially escape political repression and control and thus serve to assist the down-trodden. During the days of slavery, black churches were not only social and moral support to slaves but important stations on the Underground Railroad to freedom in the North or Canada. Hymns were used as signals to slaves--a hymn about going to "Heaven" was sometimes code for a station on the way to Canada ("Heaven" because slave hunters couldn't follow the slaves there, unlike some of the Northern states and seize them as "runaway property".) Churches also played a major role under Jim Crow and Segregation, and during the Civil Rights Movement.

And now churches like Ebenezer Baptist are soapboxes for nutcases like Cynthia McKinney.

Each party knows they do not get anywhere near their magic 50% plus one without their own respective holy-rollers. And so they pander, each in their own way.

But it's not all bad. Occasionally we are treated to Pure Comedy Gold moments as candidates like John Kerry are shepherded into southern black churches, where they attempt to fit in with the flock but cannot find that gospel groove even with a team of handlers and two focus groups on hand-clapping technique.

Rich Cream: Ahhh, so you would like to give the church a voice in government?

They already do.