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(PhysOrg.com)   Hey, YEAH. Why DON'T we pour water in a volcano to generate electricity? What could possibly go right?   (physorg.com) divider line 82
    More: Silly, electricity, geothermal energy, swarms, volcanic rocks, volcanoes, U.S. Department of Energy, energy industry, hot water  
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8268 clicks; posted to Geek » on 15 Jan 2012 at 9:14 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-01-15 04:38:48 AM
It generates electricity?
 
2012-01-15 04:43:03 AM
Have you ever taken one of those broccoli pouches out of the microwave and burned your fingers when you opened it?

THAT'S what could happen.
 
2012-01-15 05:17:25 AM

libranoelrose: Have you ever taken one of those broccoli pouches out of the microwave and burned your fingers when you opened it?

THAT'S what could happen.


What they're proposing doing can also cause earthquakes. Newberry Crater is roughly 25 miles from Bend, Oregon. It's Central Oregon's largest city and the county seat too (Deschutes County).
 
2012-01-15 05:29:20 AM
"To build geothermal in a big way beyond where it is now requires new technology, and that is where EGS comes in," said Steve Hickman, a research geophysicist with the U.S. Geological Survey in Menlo Park, Calif.

Wells are drilled deep into the rock and water is pumped in, creating tiny fractures in the rock, a process known as hydroshearing. Cold water is pumped down production wells into the reservoir, and the steam is drawn out.

Hydroshearing is similar to the process known as hydraulic fracturing, used to free natural gas from shale formations. But fracking uses chemical-laden fluids, and creates huge fractures. Pumping fracking wastewater deep underground for disposal likely led to recent earthquakes in Arkansas and Ohio. Fears persist that cracking rock deep underground through hydroshearing can also lead to damaging quakes.

Geologists believe Newberry Volcano was once one of the tallest peaks in the Cascades, reaching an elevation of 10,000 feet and a diameter of 20 miles. It blew its top before the last Ice Age, leaving a caldera studded with towering lava flows, two lakes, and 400 cinder cones, some 400 feet tall.


cdn.physorg.com
i.imgur.com
2.bp.blogspot.com
Trailer (new window)
 
2012-01-15 05:32:43 AM
An international consortium of scientists, operating as Project Inner Space in Tanganyika, Africa, is trying to tap into the Earth's geothermal energy by drilling a very deep hole down to the Earth's core. The scientists are foiled by an extremely dense layer of material at the boundary between the two. To penetrate the barrier and reach the magma below, they intend to detonate an atomic device at the bottom of the hole.

The leader of the project, Dr. Stephen Sorenson (Dana Andrews), who is (secretly) dying of cancer, believes that the atomic device will burn its way through the barrier, but the project's chief geologist, Dr. Ted Rampion (Kieron Moore), is convinced that the lower layers of the crust have been weakened by decades of underground nuclear tests, and that the detonation could produce a massive crack that would threaten the very existence of Earth.

The atomic device is used and Rampion's fears prove justified, as the crust of the Earth develops an enormous crack that progresses rapidly. Sorenson discovers that there was a huge signature of hydrogen underground, which turned the small conventional atomic explosion into a huge thermonuclear one that was millions of times more powerful. Another atomic device is used in the hope of stopping the crack, but it only reverses the crack's direction


This movie and Five Million Years to Earth made me piss my pants repeatedly throughout my adolescence.

/I think it was those two movies. Could have been I was just a lazy kid that needed more beatings.
 
2012-01-15 09:16:48 AM
Before you do that, would you try to get my keys? I'm having a hard time letting them go.
 
2012-01-15 09:19:31 AM

Bathia_Mapes: What they're proposing doing can also cause earthquakes. Newberry Crater is roughly 25 miles from Bend, Oregon. It's Central Oregon's largest city and the county seat too (Deschutes County).


This.

Quake Threat Leads Swiss to Close Geothermal Project
By JAMES GLANZ
Published: December 10, 2009

A $60 million project to extract renewable energy from the hot bedrock deep beneath Basel, Switzerland, was shut down permanently on Thursday after a government study determined that earthquakes generated by the project were likely to do millions of dollars in damage each year.

The project, led by Markus O. Häring, a former oilman, was suspended in late 2006 after it generated earthquakes that did no bodily harm but caused about $9 million in mostly minor damage to homes and other structures. Mr. Häring is to go to trial next week on criminal charges stemming from the project. On Thursday, he did not respond to messages asking for comment.
 
2012-01-15 09:27:04 AM

stucka: Bathia_Mapes: What they're proposing doing can also cause earthquakes. Newberry Crater is roughly 25 miles from Bend, Oregon. It's Central Oregon's largest city and the county seat too (Deschutes County).

This.

Quake Threat Leads Swiss to Close Geothermal Project
By JAMES GLANZ
Published: December 10, 2009

A $60 million project to extract renewable energy from the hot bedrock deep beneath Basel, Switzerland, was shut down permanently on Thursday after a government study determined that earthquakes generated by the project were likely to do millions of dollars in damage each year.

The project, led by Markus O. Häring, a former oilman, was suspended in late 2006 after it generated earthquakes that did no bodily harm but caused about $9 million in mostly minor damage to homes and other structures. Mr. Häring is to go to trial next week on criminal charges stemming from the project. On Thursday, he did not respond to messages asking for comment.


Sounds like this guy was a little shady all around, not necessarily true or false of this new project that would certainly be aware of the past one.

This issue to me is how effective they are in releasing the pressure created by the superheated water. If all that steam is able to fill the magma chamber and tubes and such, it could certainly create some destabilization.

If their drilling is accurate and well done, and they have a way to collect and release the created pressure, I should think they'll be okay.

Scale would also be an issue here.
 
2012-01-15 09:53:50 AM

Bathia_Mapes: It's Central Oregon's largest city


So it has, what, ten, 12 people?
 
2012-01-15 09:58:55 AM
It's ok, just sacrifice some virgins to appease the volcano god.
 
2012-01-15 10:20:35 AM

Bathia_Mapes: libranoelrose: Have you ever taken one of those broccoli pouches out of the microwave and burned your fingers when you opened it?

THAT'S what could happen.

What they're proposing doing can also cause earthquakes. Newberry Crater is roughly 25 miles from Bend, Oregon. It's Central Oregon's largest city and the county seat too (Deschutes County).


So? There is already a great play on words available and we can't deny the internet wit gods!

/Oregone!
 
2012-01-15 10:22:16 AM
I have been informed repeatedly here on Frack that pumping tons of chemicals into the ground to extract energy cannot have any possible negative repercussions.
 
2012-01-15 10:23:51 AM
It's the "cracking the rocks with cold water" that I find interesting.

Imagine pipe set in the ground through the zone. That pipe is of the temperature of the surrounding rock.
Now send cold water down that same pipe.
The cold will shrink the pipe in both diameter and length.
If the pipe is fixed at the total depth of the well, the shrinkage of the pipe could pull the pipe apart.

Obviously, the situation has to be engineered to allow for this, and perhaps a good portion of the hole is
"open hole", or without pipe.

Lastly, the whole project has to be generating electricity at a cost comparable to that generated by natural gas, which is as cheap as dirt at the moment.

Renewables can't compete with cheap natural gas.
 
2012-01-15 10:38:29 AM
because it will generate water vapor which is a way stronger greenhouse gas than evil CO2?
 
2012-01-15 10:48:04 AM
Sounds like a Syfy low budget production who's highest paid actor is Stephen Baldwin in a hard hat.
 
2012-01-15 10:53:59 AM
Sorry to sound dumb, but what's so different to the geo-thermal that these guys produce?

If so, thene whar's all the're erthquakes, whar... oh, that big of an eruption, huh? You don't say.
 
2012-01-15 11:00:56 AM

uttertosh: Sorry to sound dumb, but what's so different to the geo-thermal that these guys produce?


TFA is downright awful at explaining it, but methinks it's a way of getting around the fact that geothermal drills so deep. Get greedy, and you awaken the Balrog tectonic plates.

In this case the molten rock is near the surface. I doubt it'll result in a magma gusher; the downside is supposedly making a volcano that hasn't erupted since the days of Charlemagne even more extinct.

The biggest question mark here is transmission. In geothermal, you drill where you can (there's a laundry list of criteria but I don't really know them) but ideally the well is near where it'll be used. Natural gas is easy to transport by pipe. In this case they're going to where the energy is and then transporting it, which will raise end user costs in the form of transmission losses.

And now it's time for me to get my butt kicked by a real expert.
 
2012-01-15 11:24:53 AM

Mister Peejay: because it will generate water vapor which is a way stronger greenhouse gas than evil CO2?


Couldn't you us salt water, capture and condense the water vapor and end up with fresh water?

Also, I worry about any plan crafted by a man dying of cancer that happens to involve magma and nuclear weapons.
 
2012-01-15 11:34:24 AM
Go for it. Superman can fix it if anything goes wrong.
tonightatthemovies.com
 
2012-01-15 11:44:55 AM
Mister Peejay:

because it will generate water vapor which is a way stronger greenhouse gas than evil CO2?

CO2 has a reuptake time measured in decades to centuries, whereas water vapor balances itself in hours to days via the method scientists call "rain."

/ just sayin'
 
2012-01-15 11:53:20 AM
Cheap gas won't last forever. Remember the economic engine of Indiana, Gas City? Or its southern neighbor, the energy center of Muncie? "Enough gas to last a century!"

My concern over this is my limited knowledge that the most powerful eruptions occur when water is pulled doqn as one plate subducts below another, trapping water. Water mixed in lowers the boiling point and increases the eruptive force of the magma once it makes its way through the crust.

I'm sure the geophysicists have thought of this, of course.
 
2012-01-15 12:03:02 PM

dragonchild: uttertosh: Sorry to sound dumb, but what's so different to the geo-thermal that these guys produce?

TFA is downright awful at explaining it, but methinks it's a way of getting around the fact that geothermal drills so deep. Get greedy, and you awaken the Balrog tectonic plates.

In this case the molten rock is near the surface. I doubt it'll result in a magma gusher; the downside is supposedly making a volcano that hasn't erupted since the days of Charlemagne even more extinct.

The biggest question mark here is transmission. In geothermal, you drill where you can (there's a laundry list of criteria but I don't really know them) but ideally the well is near where it'll be used. Natural gas is easy to transport by pipe. In this case they're going to where the energy is and then transporting it, which will raise end user costs in the form of transmission losses.

And now it's time for me to get my butt kicked by a real expert.


Not an expert, but after spending six years in Iceland, I have picked up some things.
TFA says they are drilling to 10,600 feet, which really isn't much, especially if it is in a stable area. Bore holes for electrical production in Iceland can reach 3-5 Km and produce steam at 350C.

The power plant is built at the borehole site so for electrical transmission, 20 miles outside of the major city isn't bad. A lot of power plants are situated further away from major cities. TFA didn't mention if they were going to use waste heat for water heating or not. 20 miles is a bit far for that, but there are some pipelines in Iceland that are longer. Of course, they don't have the same population density so putting a pipeline in is a lot easier. So local towns, if there are any, could use the waste heat.

Another thing to remember is that just like with any other power plant they use a heat exchanger, the steam coming out of the ground doesn't directly drive the turbines. The dissolved minerals and gases would corrode the inner workings.
 
2012-01-15 12:06:38 PM
Obsidian for our portals.
 
2012-01-15 12:35:00 PM

Mister Peejay: because it will generate water vapor which is a way stronger greenhouse gas than evil CO2?


The stupid is strong with this one.
 
2012-01-15 01:17:29 PM

maxheck: I have been informed repeatedly here on Frack that pumping tons of chemicals into the ground to extract energy cannot have any possible negative repercussions.


Water only has tons of chemicals in it if you buy that cheap bottled stuff from Sam's Club.
 
2012-01-15 01:21:02 PM
Water? Like... from a toilet?

=Smidge=
 
2012-01-15 01:28:12 PM

dragonchild: The biggest question mark here is transmission. In geothermal, you drill where you can (there's a laundry list of criteria but I don't really know them) but ideally the well is near where it'll be used. Natural gas is easy to transport by pipe. In this case they're going to where the energy is and then transporting it, which will raise end user costs in the form of transmission losses.


The transmission barrier I see is distance to existing infrastructure rather than distance to load. One of the goals of any generator is to reduce the cost of connecting their generator by siting close to existing transmission. Constructing new lines can be costly, and possibly more damning to a project, can take very long to permit and construct.
 
2012-01-15 01:28:47 PM

Bathia_Mapes: What they're proposing doing can also cause earthquakes.

Meh, not that big of chance really.

Newberry Crater is roughly 25 miles from Bend, Oregon. Plenty far away

It's Central Oregon's largest city bah, still not very big in the grand scheme of things

and the county seat too (Deschutes County). county seat?!? SHUT. DOWN. EVERYTHING.
 
2012-01-15 01:32:37 PM
StingerJ:

dragonchild: The biggest question mark here is transmission. In geothermal, you drill where you can (there's a laundry list of criteria but I don't really know them) but ideally the well is near where it'll be used. Natural gas is easy to transport by pipe. In this case they're going to where the energy is and then transporting it, which will raise end user costs in the form of transmission losses.

The transmission barrier I see is distance to existing infrastructure rather than distance to load. One of the goals of any generator is to reduce the cost of connecting their generator by siting close to existing transmission. Constructing new lines can be costly, and possibly more damning to a project, can take very long to permit and construct.


Is that why we move rivers to more convenient locations every time we build hydroelectric plants?
 
2012-01-15 01:38:10 PM
www.writeups.org

This plan sounds familiar....
 
2012-01-15 01:38:12 PM

sendtodave: Bathia_Mapes: It's Central Oregon's largest city

So it has, what, ten, 12 people?


At little over 76,000, IIRC.
 
2012-01-15 01:43:11 PM
img.photobucket.com

Well as long as they don't run the shield at full strength continuously, I don't see the big deal.

/not obscure
//you betcha its hotlinked
 
2012-01-15 01:45:29 PM
I think we should put a nuclear reactor in the volcano to get double electricity.
 
2012-01-15 01:51:30 PM

Bathia_Mapes: libranoelrose: Have you ever taken one of those broccoli pouches out of the microwave and burned your fingers when you opened it?

THAT'S what could happen.

What they're proposing doing can also cause earthquakes. Newberry Crater is roughly 25 miles from Bend, Oregon. It's Central Oregon's largest city and the county seat too (Deschutes County).


eh, I lived for about a year in Bend. The place getting leveled is what I call a perk.
 
2012-01-15 01:58:06 PM

theinsultabot9000: Bathia_Mapes: libranoelrose: Have you ever taken one of those broccoli pouches out of the microwave and burned your fingers when you opened it?

THAT'S what could happen.

What they're proposing doing can also cause earthquakes. Newberry Crater is roughly 25 miles from Bend, Oregon. It's Central Oregon's largest city and the county seat too (Deschutes County).

eh, I lived for about a year in Bend. The place getting leveled is what I call a perk.


Exactly.

I wish they would start at Mt. Shasta though. My worry is that the Newberry Crater is an outlier of the Yellowstone caldera.
 
2012-01-15 02:09:02 PM

hufnmouth: I wish they would start at Mt. Shasta though.


Do you want to wake up the dragon? She'll be pissed!
 
2012-01-15 02:11:30 PM

hufnmouth: I wish they would start at Mt. Shasta though.


Won't someone think of the Weed?
 
2012-01-15 02:14:16 PM
I have a bad feeling about this...
 
2012-01-15 02:15:24 PM

maxheck: StingerJ:

dragonchild: The biggest question mark here is transmission. In geothermal, you drill where you can (there's a laundry list of criteria but I don't really know them) but ideally the well is near where it'll be used. Natural gas is easy to transport by pipe. In this case they're going to where the energy is and then transporting it, which will raise end user costs in the form of transmission losses.

The transmission barrier I see is distance to existing infrastructure rather than distance to load. One of the goals of any generator is to reduce the cost of connecting their generator by siting close to existing transmission. Constructing new lines can be costly, and possibly more damning to a project, can take very long to permit and construct.

Is that why we move rivers to more convenient locations every time we build hydroelectric plants?


No? I'm not sure what your point is. Are you attempting to refute something I said?
 
2012-01-15 02:20:47 PM

Ed Finnerty: Before you do that, would you try to get my keys? I'm having a hard time letting them go.


+1 internets to you sir
 
2012-01-15 02:26:31 PM
Judging from my experiments, this will produce obsidian, which can then be used to create a portal to the nether.
 
2012-01-15 02:27:26 PM

RoyBatty: Crack in the World


You mean this was a remake??

img809.imageshack.us
 
2012-01-15 02:36:43 PM
Over the years populations shifted towards volcanoes in lieu of cheap energy. But then, obvious struck.
 
2012-01-15 02:48:08 PM

J. Frank Parnell: Judging from my experiments, this will produce obsidian, which can then be used to create a portal to the nether.


From where we can mine glowstone, and do away with the need for electric lighting
 
2012-01-15 02:50:47 PM
StingerJ:

maxheck: StingerJ:

dragonchild: The biggest question mark here is transmission. In geothermal, you drill where you can (there's a laundry list of criteria but I don't really know them) but ideally the well is near where it'll be used. Natural gas is easy to transport by pipe. In this case they're going to where the energy is and then transporting it, which will raise end user costs in the form of transmission losses.

The transmission barrier I see is distance to existing infrastructure rather than distance to load. One of the goals of any generator is to reduce the cost of connecting their generator by siting close to existing transmission. Constructing new lines can be costly, and possibly more damning to a project, can take very long to permit and construct.

Is that why we move rivers to more convenient locations every time we build hydroelectric plants?

No? I'm not sure what your point is. Are you attempting to refute something I said?


Actually, that was more a reply to dragonchild, my point being that transmission is an issue for *every* form of electrical generation other than on-site solar. 94% efficient electrical transmission lines are (relatively) cheap to build and maintain compared to gas piplines.
 
2012-01-15 02:52:22 PM

Diogenes Teufelsdrockh: You mean this was a remake??


Never saw that, but perhaps. But wow, according to the plot write-up on the wiki, that was one huge stink of a movie.

Crack in the World came out when I was the littlest of kids able to remember such stuff, but the ending was truly awesome.
 
2012-01-15 02:54:03 PM

Bathia_Mapes:
What they're proposing doing can also cause earthquakes. Newberry Crater is roughly 25 miles from Bend, Oregon. It's Central Oregon's largest city and the county seat too (Deschutes County).


So, if the project sets off a massive quake in Bend- say greater than 8.5 or so, there might be millions of dollars of improvement?
 
2012-01-15 03:39:10 PM

FloydA: Bathia_Mapes:
What they're proposing doing can also cause earthquakes. Newberry Crater is roughly 25 miles from Bend, Oregon. It's Central Oregon's largest city and the county seat too (Deschutes County).

So, if the project sets off a massive quake in Bend- say greater than 8.5 or so, there might be millions of dollars of improvement?


Heh!

I'm also worried about the High Desert Museum (new window), which is near Bend.

Amongst other things, I don't want anything happening to Thomas (new window).
 
2012-01-15 03:40:19 PM

J. Frank Parnell: Judging from my experiments, this will produce obsidian, which can then be used to create a portal to the nether.


There's actually a large obsidian flow along one of the lakeshores (the one the main campground is on) - it's really cool. Hiking along the trail and then a bunch of obsidian boulders are just right there. Farther along the trail is a rocky beach with hot springs you dig into, and then a little farther is a pumice flow. Really cool place, it'd be a shame to see it get all earthquaky.
 
2012-01-15 03:42:21 PM
The violence of an eruption is proportional to the amount of water in the magma.

/ DNRTFA
 
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