I was there last summer, the pollution was gawd awful. 5 of the 6 days it was "foggy".

anyone who thinks we should cut environmental laws should get themselves a ticket to china and breath deeply.

Weaver95: And yet...to hear greenpeace tell it, the US is a bigger pollution threat than china.

go figure.

It's possible that US produces more CO2 than China per capita, but has the other airborne pollutants more under control.

Cubansaltyballs: will have

They're getting close to that already and in some places, there is no clean water now.

theorellior: the loss of life will be staggering.

Given how polluted some of their water is, that even outside of those areas, like right outside of Beijing, there are who knows how many millions without drinkable water because they haven't bothered with water treatment plants? They could face huge health issues and death tolls even if they get the air stuff under control within a couple years.

Weaver95: And yet...to hear greenpeace tell it, the US is a bigger pollution threat than china.

Gary Indiana and Pittsburgh PA used to look like that.

And yet to hear conservatives tell it, we must abolish the EPA.

nekom: It's like the U.S. in 1910. Hypocritical to think that it's ok for us to have an industrial revolution, but not them. Practical, but hypocritical. Of course we had about 1/10th of the population when we went through ours. So many conflicting thoughts on this situation that I was already well aware of. Guess I'll just get drunk instead of try to contemplate it.

We didn't know what we know now about pollution in 1910. Coal was the only way to generate power in the 19th century and early 20th. Now we have wind, solar, nuclear (though I wouldn't trust the Chinese on that), natural gas, and hydroelectric. Factories can be fitted with scrubbers on the stacks. There's no excuse for that sort of pollution in 2012. None.

Marine1: nekom: It's like the U.S. in 1910. Hypocritical to think that it's ok for us to have an industrial revolution, but not them. Practical, but hypocritical. Of course we had about 1/10th of the population when we went through ours. So many conflicting thoughts on this situation that I was already well aware of. Guess I'll just get drunk instead of try to contemplate it.

We didn't know what we know now about pollution in 1910. Coal was the only way to generate power in the 19th century and early 20th. Now we have wind, solar, nuclear (though I wouldn't trust the Chinese on that), natural gas, and hydroelectric. Factories can be fitted with scrubbers on the stacks. There's no excuse for that sort of pollution in 2012. None.

There is an excuse for it, it is called cheap labor and overhead costs to produce goods that Americans can afford because they have been drained of spending power to purchase more expensive, American made products so that Wall St and the 1% can have a bigger raise this year.

Remember when the republicans claim that they want to shut down the EPA, this is what we will look like.

GAT_00: Weaver95: GAT_00: Weaver95: Nothing.
at.
all.

Therefore, pollute all we want! Thanks for your "logic" there.

*sigh*

hear you nothing of what I say?

On environmental policy? Like I said, you're as valid as Gary on economic policy. You're willing to trash the environment for a single job created.

To be fair, you are the one that kinda sounds like a shrieking harpy. What is your proposed solution?

GAT_00: Nothing will stop that, sort of world unified policy, started with US policy as the guide. For such, we must have an enlighten policy of our own, like the Kyoto policy we abandoned, and IIRC, you disdain. Then the world as a whole can weigh against China.

Oh. I guess that's it. Yeah... External pressure on China works really well.

If you want to "hurt their feelings."

Marine1: There's no excuse for that sort of pollution in 2012. None

How about 10% GDP per capita growth per year since 1990? Lifting millions of peasants out of poverty?

No? Not enough?

Christ, guys. "Communism sucks, all peasant farmers, no industry!" "Capitalism sucks, too much industry!" China can't even buy a break.

Thats enough to make you squint 24/7

theorellior: sendtodave: Christ, guys. "Communism sucks, all peasant farmers, no industry!" "Capitalism sucks, too much industry!" China can't even buy a break.

No matter how you slice it, China's kinda caught in a cleft stick. They need to modernize, but there's hardly any wiggle room with the population vs. the environment. An environment tuned to let a billion peasants live subsistence lives can hardly support a billion modern consumers without some major, major rejiggering.

theorellior: No matter how you slice it, China's kinda caught in a cleft stick. They need to modernize, but there's hardly any wiggle room with the population vs. the environment. An environment tuned to let a billion peasants live subsistence lives can hardly support a billion modern consumers without some major, major rejiggering.

Exactly. It's a difficult situation that they are stuck with. They need to keep the furnace of their economy red hot, but, well, that makes a lot of smoke.

Now let's all go back to pointing and saying how wrong they are.

I went to China for 16 days about 10 years ago. A friend told me 'you'll get a cough after a few days. It will go away a week or so after you get back.' You couldn't see blue sky in the cities - no clouds, just brown. Even Lhasa, Tibet had smog although not too bad. About 3 or 4 days in I felt ill one evening, woke up the next morning feeling better but with a cough. Which lasted until about a week after I returned to 'smoggy' L.A.

nekom: It's like the U.S. in 1910. Hypocritical to think that it's ok for us to have an industrial revolution, but not them.

Except for the fact that when we did it, no one knew any better. Now that the world knows what it leads to, there's less reason for them to make the same mistakes.

And while it might be hypocritical of us to criticize their use of coal power plants, that's because it's prohibitively expensive for us to upgrade or replace ours. They're building new ones from scratch, when it would be much cheaper in the long run to build something cleaner.

Great photo but just the loess blowing from west of beijing into China. Been happening for thousands of years.

squeez cheez: I went to China for 16 days about 10 years ago. A friend told me 'you'll get a cough after a few days. It will go away a week or so after you get back.' You couldn't see blue sky in the cities - no clouds, just brown. Even Lhasa, Tibet had smog although not too bad. About 3 or 4 days in I felt ill one evening, woke up the next morning feeling better but with a cough. Which lasted until about a week after I returned to 'smoggy' L.A.

I live in the Pearl River Delta. Sometimes, it's smoggy. But not always. To be fair, I don't live in Shenzhen, Dongguan, or Guangzhou (I'm in Zhuhai, just north of Macau).


Taken from my old apt.

The first tier cities, and the factory towns can get bad. Real bad.

But, so can the little towns along the Ohio river (used to live out there, too).

theorellior: sendtodave: Now let's all go back to pointing and saying how wrong they are.

I'm not saying one thing or another, only that they're walking a tightrope and can hopefully make the transition without something snapping the cord. The last thing we need is for China to dissolve into chaos.

I know, I was actually commending you for understanding the problem, instead of just going on about how horrible China is (which seems to happen here more often than not).

I, too, hope for the best here.

Arkanaut: Weaver95: And yet...to hear greenpeace tell it, the US is a bigger pollution threat than china.

go figure.

It's possible that US produces more CO2 than China per capita, but has the other airborne pollutants more under control.

Mother Nature doesn't give a shiat about per capita.

GAT_00:
That's already happening. Their water table is dropping like a rock and the desertification of their country is increasing at an alarming rate. Half their country will be desert before too long.


Not to say China's a model of ecological goodness, but hasn't half their country been desert for centuries?

How are we supposed to KNOW that this is pollution and not just clouds? If it's pollution, shouldn't there be SOME of it in the clear picture?

Weaver95: And yet...to hear greenpeace tell it, the US is a bigger pollution threat than china.

go figure.

Really? I'm pretty sure every global warming watchdog mentions the burning of coal as a major problem and acknowledges that developing nations use coal more than developed nations. We cut them some slack on regulations because it wouldn't be fair to tell them not to do what we did 100 years ago, but we don't ignore that they're part of the problem.

squeez cheez: I went to China for 16 days about 10 years ago. A friend told me 'you'll get a cough after a few days. It will go away a week or so after you get back.' You couldn't see blue sky in the cities - no clouds, just brown. Even Lhasa, Tibet had smog although not too bad. About 3 or 4 days in I felt ill one evening, woke up the next morning feeling better but with a cough. Which lasted until about a week after I returned to 'smoggy' L.A.

As much as I dislike living in Iowa, it's comments like this that make me glad I live here. I can't imagine living someplace where simply breathing makes me ill. I live in Des Moines now, which I'm sure is a small town for many Farkers, but when I was growing up, the only form of air pollution I knew was breathing in too much hay dust after stacking bales in the hay-mound for 10 hours.

WhyteRaven74: They're getting close to that already and in some places, there is no clean water now.

theorellior: the loss of life will be staggering.

Given how polluted some of their water is, that even outside of those areas, like right outside of Beijing, there are who knows how many millions without drinkable water because they haven't bothered with water treatment plants? They could face huge health issues and death tolls even if they get the air stuff under control within a couple years.

They don't care too much about death tolls, plenty of people.

It's their strategy: pollute themselves into prosperity, then clean up. There are already massive investments on their way in cleaner production and clean energy, and the Chinese plans for sustainability are far more ambitious than those of the West. The Chinese government knows perfectly well what they are doing and what the risks and possibilities are.

I have been here for 5 years now and the improvements in air quality I have seen in my area are dramatic. 5 years ago we had 4,5 blue sky days a year, now it's 4,5 a month. It's still horrible, but also a major improvement. What the article shows is a remnant of the last decade. At this moment they are building watertreatment plants and wind- and solarfarms like crazy. China is one of the few countries in the world where the amount of forest is increasing.(although they are responsible for massive deforestation in other countries) For sure these efforts will come to late for a lot of people, but that is an offer the Chinese government is willing to make. And indeed, water is far more dangerous issue than pollution.

I have said this before, and I am going to say this again: in 10-15 years China is going to surpass both the US and Europe in pollution control and use of renewable energy, and Chinese companies will be leading in these fields.

For some reason I suddenly have the urge to go watch Bad American Dubbing.

theorellior: Southeast Asia, India and Russia all have large areas of arable land that are within walking distance-if you're a starving member of the People's Liberation Army.

Thailand sells metric shartloads of rice to China. Invading them isn't going to increase the shipments. It will stop production.