Is there any way to merge this with the call-center topic below? I need something to cheer me up after this long week.

/need popcorn

Give them time. Remember, Fox didn't have any problem with the "Ground Zero Mosque" at first either, before the derp brigade got a hold of the story.

Good thing they're not working in call centers. Then I'd be really worried.

"Employment with a criminal record" trifecta in play

snake_beater: Is there any way to merge this with the call-center topic below? I need something to cheer me up after this long week.

/need popcorn

The $20 mil in grants is a small investment for $750 mil in cold hard greenbacks for Uncle Sam!

that's not what you were looking for, huh?

I'm NOT an ex-con. Can't I have a job? Should I go murder some old people first?

snake_beater: Is there any way to merge this with the call-center topic below? I need something to cheer me up after this long week.

/need popcorn

Work at a call center for 5 to 10 then get help to work at a call center 9 to 5.

I have a job for Lindsey Lohan. My lawn needs raking.

You guys are forgetting who the "job-creators" are... they will be the ones on the recieving end of these kickbacks grants.

Employees are a strain on our economy.

Grand Architect: snake_beater: Is there any way to merge this with the call-center topic below? I need something to cheer me up after this long week.

/need popcorn

Work at a call center for 5 to 10 then get help to work at a call center 9 to 5.

After the sort of crap I watch people put them through, I'd rather not.

/I have a low SAN rating to begin with, don't think I can handle that kind of punishmentwork

I have a problem with this.

magneticmushroom: I'm NOT an ex-con. Can't I have a job? Should I go murder some old people first?

You're not likely to turn recidivist career criminal and end up costing the system millions in due process and incarceration fees over your lifespan.

It's an investment. We can't just kill the criminals, so rehabilitation is the best way to ensure they don't remain a burden on society.

Besides...are you really looking for work as a short-order cook, pool boy, tattoo artist, security guard, or club bouncer? These guys aren't competing with YOU, dipshiat.

Ah, so in order to get a job in this country all you need to do is knock over a liquor store first? Super! You get to get wasted after the robbery, a few years of free room and board and then handed a job when you're done.

Welcome to America!

Lexx: magneticmushroom: I'm NOT an ex-con. Can't I have a job? Should I go murder some old people first?

You're not likely to turn recidivist career criminal and end up costing the system millions in due process and incarceration fees over your lifespan.

It's an investment. We can't just kill the criminals, so rehabilitation is the best way to ensure they don't remain a burden on society.

Besides...are you really looking for work as a short-order cook, pool boy, tattoo artist, security guard, or club bouncer? These guys aren't competing with YOU, dipshiat.

You do realize that you just explained how to hold jobs hostage, right?

ThatDarkFellow: Ah, so in order to get a job in this country all you need to do is knock over a liquor store first? Super! You get to get wasted after the robbery, a few years of free room and board and then handed a job when you're done.

Welcome to America!

Ever hear the expression "the squeaky wheel gets the grease"? Most employers won't touch you if you have a criminal record, and like my above post, unemployable ex-cons tend to become career criminals and cost the taxpayers millions to process and keep locked up. It benefits the public more to turn criminals into productive members of society than it benefits the public to punish them.

Lexx: magneticmushroom: I'm NOT an ex-con. Can't I have a job? Should I go murder some old people first?

You're not likely to turn recidivist career criminal and end up costing the system millions in due process and incarceration fees over your lifespan.

It's an investment. We can't just kill the criminals, so rehabilitation is the best way to ensure they don't remain a burden on society.

Besides...are you really looking for work as a short-order cook, pool boy, tattoo artist, security guard, or club bouncer? These guys aren't competing with YOU, dipshiat.

Thanks for making it personal. Also, thank you for assuming that I have both scruples and high goals.

The TRUTH is, I'd take any damned job right now so that I can pay my farking bills. When you're broke and desperate for money, those so-called "crappy" jobs start to look mighty good.

But you just keep on thinking that no one is reaching the point where dignity means shiat.

Hey, here's a crazy thought; why don't we help get the non-felons back to work first?

Not everyone with a criminal record is a dirtbag that lives to rape, steal or murder.

So for those of us out of work, I guess the solution is to rob a liquor store?

imprimere: Lexx: magneticmushroom: I'm NOT an ex-con. Can't I have a job? Should I go murder some old people first?

You're not likely to turn recidivist career criminal and end up costing the system millions in due process and incarceration fees over your lifespan.

It's an investment. We can't just kill the criminals, so rehabilitation is the best way to ensure they don't remain a burden on society.

Besides...are you really looking for work as a short-order cook, pool boy, tattoo artist, security guard, or club bouncer? These guys aren't competing with YOU, dipshiat.

You do realize that you just explained how to hold jobs hostage, right?

No, explain this one to me. Is your line of thought "become a criminal - get a job!"? Because that's laughable on its face. Even with incentives, these people will never have anything better than unskilled labor or tradesmen in dangerous lines of work. Go join a bloody welder's union. I hear they're building a pipeline through your country and will need manpower.

magneticmushroom: Lexx: magneticmushroom: I'm NOT an ex-con. Can't I have a job? Should I go murder some old people first?

You're not likely to turn recidivist career criminal and end up costing the system millions in due process and incarceration fees over your lifespan.

It's an investment. We can't just kill the criminals, so rehabilitation is the best way to ensure they don't remain a burden on society.

Besides...are you really looking for work as a short-order cook, pool boy, tattoo artist, security guard, or club bouncer? These guys aren't competing with YOU, dipshiat.

Thanks for making it personal. Also, thank you for assuming that I have both scruples and high goals.

The TRUTH is, I'd take any damned job right now so that I can pay my farking bills. When you're broke and desperate for money, those so-called "crappy" jobs start to look mighty good.

But you just keep on thinking that no one is reaching the point where dignity means shiat.

Move to a state with oil, coal, or shale, and become a skilled trades apprentice. Move to China and become a cram school English teacher. Get a job at McDonald's. Move to Australia and become a miner - you'd make a metric farkton there.

Teen Wolf Blitzer: So for those of us out of work, I guess the solution is to rob a liquor store?

Exactly. After all, we don't want the criminals reapeating offenses, so let's spend money on figuring out how to make sure they get a 'fair shake'.

Here's a thought. You want to spend no money and make it fair? Disallow corporations to ask about criminal history. If a criminal's debt is paid, it's paid. No asking if they've "ever been convicted".

I would not include small businesses, since they can't themselves be criminal, vote themself a big bonus, and then screw a bunch of innocent workers out of jobs.

Lexx: imprimere: Lexx: magneticmushroom: I'm NOT an ex-con. Can't I have a job? Should I go murder some old people first?

You're not likely to turn recidivist career criminal and end up costing the system millions in due process and incarceration fees over your lifespan.

It's an investment. We can't just kill the criminals, so rehabilitation is the best way to ensure they don't remain a burden on society.

Besides...are you really looking for work as a short-order cook, pool boy, tattoo artist, security guard, or club bouncer? These guys aren't competing with YOU, dipshiat.

You do realize that you just explained how to hold jobs hostage, right?

No, explain this one to me. Is your line of thought "become a criminal - get a job!"? Because that's laughable on its face. Even with incentives, these people will never have anything better than unskilled labor or tradesmen in dangerous lines of work. Go join a bloody welder's union. I hear they're building a pipeline through your country and will need manpower.

Regardless of how you explain it, it STILL equals jobs for ex-cons at the expense of people who've never spent any time behind bars. Anything else you say is irrelevant to my point.

Given the numbers of people who go through American prisons, it could end up being the country's largest vocational training scheme.

After the military of course.

imprimere: Teen Wolf Blitzer: So for those of us out of work, I guess the solution is to rob a liquor store?

Exactly. After all, we don't want the criminals reapeating offenses, so let's spend money on figuring out how to make sure they get a 'fair shake'.

Here's a thought. You want to spend no money and make it fair? Disallow corporations to ask about criminal history. If a criminal's debt is paid, it's paid. No asking if they've "ever been convicted".

I would not include small businesses, since they can't themselves be criminal, vote themself a big bonus, and then screw a bunch of innocent workers out of jobs.

Ex-con isn't a protected class, and never will be. Your country has more people locked up per capita than anywhere else in the world. Your politicians can't get over idealistic fire & brimstone morality to realize that locking people away is the worst failure a justice system can have - it's expensive, it doesn't make society any safer, and it ends up screwing the con's chances of rejoining society so badly that they'll likely end up costing the taxpayer forever.

magneticmushroom: Lexx: imprimere: Lexx: magneticmushroom: I'm NOT an ex-con. Can't I have a job? Should I go murder some old people first?

You're not likely to turn recidivist career criminal and end up costing the system millions in due process and incarceration fees over your lifespan.

It's an investment. We can't just kill the criminals, so rehabilitation is the best way to ensure they don't remain a burden on society.

Besides...are you really looking for work as a short-order cook, pool boy, tattoo artist, security guard, or club bouncer? These guys aren't competing with YOU, dipshiat.

You do realize that you just explained how to hold jobs hostage, right?

No, explain this one to me. Is your line of thought "become a criminal - get a job!"? Because that's laughable on its face. Even with incentives, these people will never have anything better than unskilled labor or tradesmen in dangerous lines of work. Go join a bloody welder's union. I hear they're building a pipeline through your country and will need manpower.

Regardless of how you explain it, it STILL equals jobs for ex-cons at the expense of people who've never spent any time behind bars. Anything else you say is irrelevant to my point.

Are you really suggest that an honest, law-abiding citizen should have an advantage over murderers and rapists when it comes to finding a job? Not in Obama's America, comrade!

And Lexx, did you just seriously suggest I move to another country for a job?

WHEEEE, I'm thousands of dollars behind on my bills! I know, I'll just magically conjure up the money to pack all of my belongings into a bag of holding and flap my arms till I get to Lexxland, where jobs and food and free-farking-electricity grow on gumdrop trees in the verdant Fields of Utter Fantasy.

Like that, right?

ansius: Given the numbers of people who go through American prisons, it could end up being the country's largest vocational training scheme.

After the military of course.

You sound like a bitter nerd with a worthless degree.

magneticmushroom: Lexx: imprimere: Lexx: magneticmushroom: I'm NOT an ex-con. Can't I have a job? Should I go murder some old people first?

You're not likely to turn recidivist career criminal and end up costing the system millions in due process and incarceration fees over your lifespan.

It's an investment. We can't just kill the criminals, so rehabilitation is the best way to ensure they don't remain a burden on society.

Besides...are you really looking for work as a short-order cook, pool boy, tattoo artist, security guard, or club bouncer? These guys aren't competing with YOU, dipshiat.

You do realize that you just explained how to hold jobs hostage, right?

No, explain this one to me. Is your line of thought "become a criminal - get a job!"? Because that's laughable on its face. Even with incentives, these people will never have anything better than unskilled labor or tradesmen in dangerous lines of work. Go join a bloody welder's union. I hear they're building a pipeline through your country and will need manpower.

Regardless of how you explain it, it STILL equals jobs for ex-cons at the expense of people who've never spent any time behind bars. Anything else you say is irrelevant to my point.

What part of "ex-cons, if they can't succeed legally, will turn to crime" don't you get? YOU aren't bloody likely to become a huge burden on society. THEY are. Society is better served by reintegrating them than it is employing YOU.

If an ex-con gets a job over you, you lose thousands. If an ex-con can't get a job, society loses hundreds of thousands to millions. It's not hard math.

Lexx: magneticmushroom: Lexx: imprimere: Lexx: magneticmushroom: I'm NOT an ex-con. Can't I have a job? Should I go murder some old people first?

You're not likely to turn recidivist career criminal and end up costing the system millions in due process and incarceration fees over your lifespan.

It's an investment. We can't just kill the criminals, so rehabilitation is the best way to ensure they don't remain a burden on society.

Besides...are you really looking for work as a short-order cook, pool boy, tattoo artist, security guard, or club bouncer? These guys aren't competing with YOU, dipshiat.

You do realize that you just explained how to hold jobs hostage, right?

No, explain this one to me. Is your line of thought "become a criminal - get a job!"? Because that's laughable on its face. Even with incentives, these people will never have anything better than unskilled labor or tradesmen in dangerous lines of work. Go join a bloody welder's union. I hear they're building a pipeline through your country and will need manpower.

Regardless of how you explain it, it STILL equals jobs for ex-cons at the expense of people who've never spent any time behind bars. Anything else you say is irrelevant to my point.

What part of "ex-cons, if they can't succeed legally, will turn to crime" don't you get? YOU aren't bloody likely to become a huge burden on society. THEY are. Society is better served by reintegrating them than it is employing YOU.

If an ex-con gets a job over you, you lose thousands. If an ex-con can't get a job, society loses hundreds of thousands to millions. It's not hard math.

Or we could just kill 'em. Just a thought.

Lexx: imprimere: Lexx: magneticmushroom: I'm NOT an ex-con. Can't I have a job? Should I go murder some old people first?

You're not likely to turn recidivist career criminal and end up costing the system millions in due process and incarceration fees over your lifespan.

It's an investment. We can't just kill the criminals, so rehabilitation is the best way to ensure they don't remain a burden on society.

Besides...are you really looking for work as a short-order cook, pool boy, tattoo artist, security guard, or club bouncer? These guys aren't competing with YOU, dipshiat.

You do realize that you just explained how to hold jobs hostage, right?

No, explain this one to me. Is your line of thought "become a criminal - get a job!"? Because that's laughable on its face. Even with incentives, these people will never have anything better than unskilled labor or tradesmen in dangerous lines of work. Go join a bloody welder's union. I hear they're building a pipeline through your country and will need manpower.

(see my previous post)

But, no. It's not a simple incentive for criminals, but to use the argument that 'you don't want them breaking the law again' is just as silly. Do you want to trim weeds or pull them up by the roots? The real problem is that we say that a criminal has paid his debt, but then still label them as a 'criminal'. Aside from keeping court records for possible repeat offenders, the stigma of being a criminal should be erased when a sentence has been met.

If you want to argue that employers should have a right to know (which they shouldn't), then you should go all out and make this part of a criminals sentence. You robbed a convenience store? That will be $X in fines, 200 hours of community service or 60 days in jail (or whatever), and you are only allowed to hold a criminal level job (see list: bouncer, security guard, whatever).

I hope people would see just how ridiculous it is to "forever label a criminal" and no such extra punishment would be issued. As it stands however, this is already being done, but people get to ignore it.

/and as always, thank you for resorting to childish name-calling to make your point. You are such a big person, aren't you?

magneticmushroom: And Lexx, did you just seriously suggest I move to another country for a job?

WHEEEE, I'm thousands of dollars behind on my bills! I know, I'll just magically conjure up the money to pack all of my belongings into a bag of holding and flap my arms till I get to Lexxland, where jobs and food and free-farking-electricity grow on gumdrop trees in the verdant Fields of Utter Fantasy.

Like that, right?

They hire you in US, pay your plane ticket and board, and a monthly stipend. You spend the first year paying off your debts and then prosper. It's not difficult mental calculus.

Most people aren't willing to relocate for work and just about no one's willing to go to the ends of the earth. Unskilled labor (drivers, fry chefs, housecleaners) in the barren oilsands of Alberta Canada make $28/hour in their first year, plus overtime, and it only goes up. And all you have to do is show up and you'll be hired. Even criminal records don't matter, since everyone out there's been busted several times over for drugs.

imprimere: Lexx: imprimere: Lexx: magneticmushroom: I'm NOT an ex-con. Can't I have a job? Should I go murder some old people first?

You're not likely to turn recidivist career criminal and end up costing the system millions in due process and incarceration fees over your lifespan.

It's an investment. We can't just kill the criminals, so rehabilitation is the best way to ensure they don't remain a burden on society.

Besides...are you really looking for work as a short-order cook, pool boy, tattoo artist, security guard, or club bouncer? These guys aren't competing with YOU, dipshiat.

You do realize that you just explained how to hold jobs hostage, right?

No, explain this one to me. Is your line of thought "become a criminal - get a job!"? Because that's laughable on its face. Even with incentives, these people will never have anything better than unskilled labor or tradesmen in dangerous lines of work. Go join a bloody welder's union. I hear they're building a pipeline through your country and will need manpower.

(see my previous post)

But, no. It's not a simple incentive for criminals, but to use the argument that 'you don't want them breaking the law again' is just as silly. Do you want to trim weeds or pull them up by the roots? The real problem is that we say that a criminal has paid his debt, but then still label them as a 'criminal'. Aside from keeping court records for possible repeat offenders, the stigma of being a criminal should be erased when a sentence has been met.

If you want to argue that employers should have a right to know (which they shouldn't), then you should go all out and make this part of a criminals sentence. You robbed a convenience store? That will be $X in fines, 200 hours of community service or 60 days in jail (or whatever), and you are only allowed to hold a criminal level job (see list: bouncer, security guard, whatever).

I hope people would see just how ridiculous it is to "forever label a criminal" and no such extra punishment ...

I agree with you - criminals should have their records expunged upon paying their debt to society. That would go a long way to help with the reintegration process.

Lexx: imprimere: Teen Wolf Blitzer: So for those of us out of work, I guess the solution is to rob a liquor store?

Exactly. After all, we don't want the criminals reapeating offenses, so let's spend money on figuring out how to make sure they get a 'fair shake'.

Here's a thought. You want to spend no money and make it fair? Disallow corporations to ask about criminal history. If a criminal's debt is paid, it's paid. No asking if they've "ever been convicted".

I would not include small businesses, since they can't themselves be criminal, vote themself a big bonus, and then screw a bunch of innocent workers out of jobs.

Ex-con isn't a protected class, and never will be. Your country has more people locked up per capita than anywhere else in the world. Your politicians can't get over idealistic fire & brimstone morality to realize that locking people away is the worst failure a justice system can have - it's expensive, it doesn't make society any safer, and it ends up screwing the con's chances of rejoining society so badly that they'll likely end up costing the taxpayer forever.

That's my point. It shouldn't be a protected class. It shouldn't be a class at all. You paid your debt, your're done. Period.

Oh, but I don't know why I'm even discussing with you. You think that you should never lock people up. That's brilliant.

Lexx: magneticmushroom: Lexx: imprimere: Lexx: magneticmushroom: I'm NOT an ex-con. Can't I have a job? Should I go murder some old people first?

You're not likely to turn recidivist career criminal and end up costing the system millions in due process and incarceration fees over your lifespan.

It's an investment. We can't just kill the criminals, so rehabilitation is the best way to ensure they don't remain a burden on society.

Besides...are you really looking for work as a short-order cook, pool boy, tattoo artist, security guard, or club bouncer? These guys aren't competing with YOU, dipshiat.

You do realize that you just explained how to hold jobs hostage, right?

No, explain this one to me. Is your line of thought "become a criminal - get a job!"? Because that's laughable on its face. Even with incentives, these people will never have anything better than unskilled labor or tradesmen in dangerous lines of work. Go join a bloody welder's union. I hear they're building a pipeline through your country and will need manpower.

Regardless of how you explain it, it STILL equals jobs for ex-cons at the expense of people who've never spent any time behind bars. Anything else you say is irrelevant to my point.

What part of "ex-cons, if they can't succeed legally, will turn to crime" don't you get? YOU aren't bloody likely to become a huge burden on society. THEY are. Society is better served by reintegrating them than it is employing YOU.

If an ex-con gets a job over you, you lose thousands. If an ex-con can't get a job, society loses hundreds of thousands to millions. It's not hard math.

Again, you are assuming that when I lose my house and begin to starve, that I'm not going to have to steal and rob for my food. Do you honestly think that the fact that I'm a decent guy is going to keep me from cutting a biatch so's I can feed myself? The system is fine, IN THEORY. But in the long run, it may do nothing more than create more of the criminals it's hoping to rehabilitate.

My point is that, if the system benefits more from giving rapists and murderers jobs than honest Joes like myself, then something is wrong with the system. And you think I'm a dipshiat for having a problem with that?

Teen Wolf Blitzer: Lexx: magneticmushroom: Lexx: imprimere: Lexx: magneticmushroom: I'm NOT an ex-con. Can't I have a job? Should I go murder some old people first?

You're not likely to turn recidivist career criminal and end up costing the system millions in due process and incarceration fees over your lifespan.

It's an investment. We can't just kill the criminals, so rehabilitation is the best way to ensure they don't remain a burden on society.

Besides...are you really looking for work as a short-order cook, pool boy, tattoo artist, security guard, or club bouncer? These guys aren't competing with YOU, dipshiat.

You do realize that you just explained how to hold jobs hostage, right?

No, explain this one to me. Is your line of thought "become a criminal - get a job!"? Because that's laughable on its face. Even with incentives, these people will never have anything better than unskilled labor or tradesmen in dangerous lines of work. Go join a bloody welder's union. I hear they're building a pipeline through your country and will need manpower.

Regardless of how you explain it, it STILL equals jobs for ex-cons at the expense of people who've never spent any time behind bars. Anything else you say is irrelevant to my point.

What part of "ex-cons, if they can't succeed legally, will turn to crime" don't you get? YOU aren't bloody likely to become a huge burden on society. THEY are. Society is better served by reintegrating them than it is employing YOU.

If an ex-con gets a job over you, you lose thousands. If an ex-con can't get a job, society loses hundreds of thousands to millions. It's not hard math.

Or we could just kill 'em. Just a thought.

Would you rather lived in a country with corporal punishment or ex-con reintegration programs? I mean, you guys already have halfway houses.

$10 million for cardboard, $10 million for Sharpies, milk crates are fee

Lexx: imprimere: Lexx: imprimere: Lexx: magneticmushroom: I'm NOT an ex-con. Can't I have a job? Should I go murder some old people first?

You're not likely to turn recidivist career criminal and end up costing the system millions in due process and incarceration fees over your lifespan.

It's an investment. We can't just kill the criminals, so rehabilitation is the best way to ensure they don't remain a burden on society.

Besides...are you really looking for work as a short-order cook, pool boy, tattoo artist, security guard, or club bouncer? These guys aren't competing with YOU, dipshiat.

You do realize that you just explained how to hold jobs hostage, right?

No, explain this one to me. Is your line of thought "become a criminal - get a job!"? Because that's laughable on its face. Even with incentives, these people will never have anything better than unskilled labor or tradesmen in dangerous lines of work. Go join a bloody welder's union. I hear they're building a pipeline through your country and will need manpower.

(see my previous post)

But, no. It's not a simple incentive for criminals, but to use the argument that 'you don't want them breaking the law again' is just as silly. Do you want to trim weeds or pull them up by the roots? The real problem is that we say that a criminal has paid his debt, but then still label them as a 'criminal'. Aside from keeping court records for possible repeat offenders, the stigma of being a criminal should be erased when a sentence has been met.

If you want to argue that employers should have a right to know (which they shouldn't), then you should go all out and make this part of a criminals sentence. You robbed a convenience store? That will be $X in fines, 200 hours of community service or 60 days in jail (or whatever), and you are only allowed to hold a criminal level job (see list: bouncer, security guard, whatever).

I hope people would see just how ridiculous it is to "forever label a criminal" and no such extra ...

"Debt to society" - how exactly is living in a cell with free food, free utilities, etc.. repaying a "debt to society"? It seems to me society is paying THEM for their crimes.

Lexx: Teen Wolf Blitzer: Lexx: magneticmushroom: Lexx: imprimere: Lexx: magneticmushroom: I'm NOT an ex-con. Can't I have a job? Should I go murder some old people first?

You're not likely to turn recidivist career criminal and end up costing the system millions in due process and incarceration fees over your lifespan.

It's an investment. We can't just kill the criminals, so rehabilitation is the best way to ensure they don't remain a burden on society.

Besides...are you really looking for work as a short-order cook, pool boy, tattoo artist, security guard, or club bouncer? These guys aren't competing with YOU, dipshiat.

You do realize that you just explained how to hold jobs hostage, right?

No, explain this one to me. Is your line of thought "become a criminal - get a job!"? Because that's laughable on its face. Even with incentives, these people will never have anything better than unskilled labor or tradesmen in dangerous lines of work. Go join a bloody welder's union. I hear they're building a pipeline through your country and will need manpower.

Regardless of how you explain it, it STILL equals jobs for ex-cons at the expense of people who've never spent any time behind bars. Anything else you say is irrelevant to my point.

What part of "ex-cons, if they can't succeed legally, will turn to crime" don't you get? YOU aren't bloody likely to become a huge burden on society. THEY are. Society is better served by reintegrating them than it is employing YOU.

If an ex-con gets a job over you, you lose thousands. If an ex-con can't get a job, society loses hundreds of thousands to millions. It's not hard math.

Or we could just kill 'em. Just a thought.

Would you rather lived in a country with corporal punishment or ex-con reintegration programs? I mean, you guys already have halfway houses.

Capital punishment. Ex-cons don't "reintegrate", they recidivate.

imprimere: Lexx: imprimere: Teen Wolf Blitzer: So for those of us out of work, I guess the solution is to rob a liquor store?

Exactly. After all, we don't want the criminals reapeating offenses, so let's spend money on figuring out how to make sure they get a 'fair shake'.

Here's a thought. You want to spend no money and make it fair? Disallow corporations to ask about criminal history. If a criminal's debt is paid, it's paid. No asking if they've "ever been convicted".

I would not include small businesses, since they can't themselves be criminal, vote themself a big bonus, and then screw a bunch of innocent workers out of jobs.

Ex-con isn't a protected class, and never will be. Your country has more people locked up per capita than anywhere else in the world. Your politicians can't get over idealistic fire & brimstone morality to realize that locking people away is the worst failure a justice system can have - it's expensive, it doesn't make society any safer, and it ends up screwing the con's chances of rejoining society so badly that they'll likely end up costing the taxpayer forever.

That's my point. It shouldn't be a protected class. It shouldn't be a class at all. You paid your debt, your're done. Period.

Oh, but I don't know why I'm even discussing with you. You think that you should never lock people up. That's brilliant.

I never said you shouldn't lock people up. I said that every locked up citizen is a failure for society. A failure in upbringing, in moral education, in opportunities...if it's ever more economically viable to become a criminal parasite than it is to be law-abiding citizen, society has failed that individual.

Recidivists will always exist, so yeah, we need prisons. You can't save everyone.

Teen Wolf Blitzer: Lexx: Teen Wolf Blitzer: Lexx: magneticmushroom: Lexx: imprimere: Lexx: magneticmushroom: I'm NOT an ex-con. Can't I have a job? Should I go murder some old people first?

You're not likely to turn recidivist career criminal and end up costing the system millions in due process and incarceration fees over your lifespan.

It's an investment. We can't just kill the criminals, so rehabilitation is the best way to ensure they don't remain a burden on society.

Besides...are you really looking for work as a short-order cook, pool boy, tattoo artist, security guard, or club bouncer? These guys aren't competing with YOU, dipshiat.

You do realize that you just explained how to hold jobs hostage, right?

No, explain this one to me. Is your line of thought "become a criminal - get a job!"? Because that's laughable on its face. Even with incentives, these people will never have anything better than unskilled labor or tradesmen in dangerous lines of work. Go join a bloody welder's union. I hear they're building a pipeline through your country and will need manpower.

Regardless of how you explain it, it STILL equals jobs for ex-cons at the expense of people who've never spent any time behind bars. Anything else you say is irrelevant to my point.

What part of "ex-cons, if they can't succeed legally, will turn to crime" don't you get? YOU aren't bloody likely to become a huge burden on society. THEY are. Society is better served by reintegrating them than it is employing YOU.

If an ex-con gets a job over you, you lose thousands. If an ex-con can't get a job, society loses hundreds of thousands to millions. It's not hard math.

Or we could just kill 'em. Just a thought.

Would you rather lived in a country with corporal punishment or ex-con reintegration programs? I mean, you guys already have halfway houses.

Capital punishment. Ex-cons don't "reintegrate", they recidivate.

Recidivism rates in the USA are some of the highest in the world. Other countries do a damned good job of reintegration.

9beers: ansius: Given the numbers of people who go through American prisons, it could end up being the country's largest vocational training scheme.

After the military of course.

You sound like a bitter nerd with a worthless degree.

And you sound fat.

/pointlessly aggressive comments FTW!

Teen Wolf Blitzer: Lexx: imprimere: Lexx: imprimere: Lexx: magneticmushroom: I'm NOT an ex-con. Can't I have a job? Should I go murder some old people first?

You're not likely to turn recidivist career criminal and end up costing the system millions in due process and incarceration fees over your lifespan.

It's an investment. We can't just kill the criminals, so rehabilitation is the best way to ensure they don't remain a burden on society.

Besides...are you really looking for work as a short-order cook, pool boy, tattoo artist, security guard, or club bouncer? These guys aren't competing with YOU, dipshiat.

You do realize that you just explained how to hold jobs hostage, right?

No, explain this one to me. Is your line of thought "become a criminal - get a job!"? Because that's laughable on its face. Even with incentives, these people will never have anything better than unskilled labor or tradesmen in dangerous lines of work. Go join a bloody welder's union. I hear they're building a pipeline through your country and will need manpower.

(see my previous post)

But, no. It's not a simple incentive for criminals, but to use the argument that 'you don't want them breaking the law again' is just as silly. Do you want to trim weeds or pull them up by the roots? The real problem is that we say that a criminal has paid his debt, but then still label them as a 'criminal'. Aside from keeping court records for possible repeat offenders, the stigma of being a criminal should be erased when a sentence has been met.

If you want to argue that employers should have a right to know (which they shouldn't), then you should go all out and make this part of a criminals sentence. You robbed a convenience store? That will be $X in fines, 200 hours of community service or 60 days in jail (or whatever), and you are only allowed to hold a criminal level job (see list: bouncer, security guard, whatever).

I hope people would see just how ridiculous it is to "forever label a criminal" and no such ...

Most criminal sentences involve hundreds of hours of community service, fines, and minimal jail time. For the crimes with serious jail time, there's tons of community service and parole as well. Also, they're paying you back with years of their LIVES.

Anyway, you make my point for me: locking them away for decades costs society a ton. Killing them costs society even more, somehow. PUNISHMENT is only one purpose of the justice system, but you Americans focus on it and ignore the others.

Don't get me wrong. The current system is certainly broken! I don't think it's too difficult to create a system where criminals "pay for themselves". I'm not talking about the ways that corrupt politicians profit off of them either. I'm talking about making the facility as self-sustaining as possible, for starters. You aren't likely to create a perfect system, but we should be able to reasonably close the gap between 'a complete drain on tax-payers' and 'booya, free labor for the military and extra money for the government'.

imprimere: Don't get me wrong. The current system is certainly broken! I don't think it's too difficult to create a system where criminals "pay for themselves". I'm not talking about the ways that corrupt politicians profit off of them either. I'm talking about making the facility as self-sustaining as possible, for starters. You aren't likely to create a perfect system, but we should be able to reasonably close the gap between 'a complete drain on tax-payers' and 'booya, free labor for the military and extra money for the government'.

Yeah, let's give the criminals deadly talents. That'll work. To be honest, the last successful "kick them out of society without corporal punishment or significantly costing society to keep them alive and out of sight" strategy was Australia.

Stop acting as if these are going to be high paying jobs. They will be 10 to 12 bucks an hour in most cases. The same jobs are availabe to anybody else willing to take them. Those of you biatching about not being able to find jobs are full of shiat. You just seem to think you're entitled to do what you want and get paid well to boot.