late news is late.

also, if he doesn't fire Caldwell, he's no GM at all.

Starhawk: late news is late.

also, if he doesn't fire Caldwell, he's no GM at all.

As a Titans fan I say you need to stick with him so he has a proper chance. I'd recommend at least a 5-year stint.

:)

Carousel Beast: Starhawk: late news is late.

also, if he doesn't fire Caldwell, he's no GM at all.

As a Titans fan I say you need to stick with him so he has a proper chance. I'd recommend at least a 5-year stint.

:)

It would be unfair to Manning to fire Caldwell!
Let Manning have some continuity when he comes back next year!

/ and I think other patriot fans will agree with me

The timing of all this keeps me holding out hope that Fisher is coming.

Holding out hope for Fisher but it looks like a long shot.

My question is what are they going to do with Tressel? Everyone forgets that he is on the staff.

Peyton needs to get his arse over to the Jets!!!

All the Jets need is a decent QB to contend for the Superbowl next year.

Also, who wouldn't want to see Payton Manning vs Tom Brady twice a year?!?

Willie Fistergash: Also, who wouldn't want to see Payton Manning vs Tom Brady twice a year?!?

*raises hand*

Do you not remember Favre! playing Green Bay? This would be ten times worse.

This seems like a shrewd, understated choice. Probably a good thing; we need a GM that isn't going to rock the boat much. Unlike Epstein coming into the Cubs, where his first order of business is jettisoning everyone who doesn't fit into his "mold", I think Grigson will be almost required to keep most of the veterans around. What I'm looking forward to is a little more emphasis on free agency to sign talent instead of trying to do everything through the draft.

And fark Jeff Fisher. We need a coach with a focus on defense, just like Tony Dungy. That's our biggest weakness. Offensively, Manning runs the show and if we're getting Andrew Luck he's going to have a full year to learn the scheme just the same. Offense is not going to be a problem for the Colts.

Shaggy_C: We need a coach with a focus on defense, just like Tony Dungy. That's our biggest weakness.

Not sure if serious.

Shaggy_C: This seems like a shrewd, understated choice. Probably a good thing; we need a GM that isn't going to rock the boat much. Unlike Epstein coming into the Cubs, where his first order of business is jettisoning everyone who doesn't fit into his "mold", I think Grigson will be almost required to keep most of the veterans around. What I'm looking forward to is a little more emphasis on free agency to sign talent instead of trying to do everything through the draft.

And fark Jeff Fisher. We need a coach with a focus on defense, just like Tony Dungy. That's our biggest weakness. Offensively, Manning runs the show and if we're getting Andrew Luck he's going to have a full year to learn the scheme just the same. Offense is not going to be a problem for the Colts.

^ A Double helping of this please^

/Your jib, I like how its cut

Jeff Fisher or Bill Cowher would be interesting choices, but somehow I think we're going to end up with Chucky.

Gruden has talked about wanting to get back into coaching, and he's salivated over the idea of coaching Peyton. And mysteriously, I haven't seen headlines about him interviewing anywhere else....

funk_soul_bubby: The timing of all this keeps me holding out hope that Fisher is coming.

The last damned thing Indianapolis wants to do is listen to Jeff Fisher's coach interviews.

From the minds who drafted the following in the first 4 rounds in the past two seasons:

Casey Matthews - Sucks
Danny Watkins - Meh
Curtis Marsh - Who?
Jaiquan Jarret - Sucks
Brandon Graham - Sucks
Nate Allen - Sucks
Daniel Te'o-Nesheim - Sucks
Trevard Lindley - Sucks
Keenan Clayton - Sucks
Mike Kafta - Sucks
Clay Harbor - Meh

Enjoy that Indy.

It won't be Fisher, he'd want too much control for Irsay's taste. And it doesn't seem like Cowher wants to coach anymore. I don't think Chuckie wants to coach anymore either, he just likes to muse. IMO it's going to be someone who is currently an OC or DC.

Hillbilly Jim: Willie Fistergash: Also, who wouldn't want to see Payton Manning vs Tom Brady twice a year?!?

*raises hand*

Do you not remember Favre! playing Green Bay? This would be ten times worse.


Yeah ... about that. Favre played in green bay whilst playing for the Vikings, their mortal enemy. There is not that type of rivalry between the Jets and Colts ... whatsoever. There is however a substantial rivalry between the Jets and Patriots, you know, being divisional rivals and all. How much excitement would there be with the existing rivaly, and adding to it the matchup of the 2 best QBs in the AFC? (Twice a year).

I just hope by saying the 2 best QBs in the AFC I didn't open up a debate for Rapistberger and Te-Blow fanboys to chime in and douche this debate up.

Sorry Jets fans (and anyone else who doesn't pay attention) Peyton isn't going anywhere. Not because he is going to play again in Indy all of a sudden, but because he is dead money against the cap.

If we traded Manning we wouldn't have enough cap space to pay the people we traded him for.

rebelpride644: Sorry Jets fans (and anyone else who doesn't pay attention) Peyton isn't going anywhere. Not because he is going to play again in Indy all of a sudden, but because he is dead money against the cap.

If we traded Manning we wouldn't have enough cap space to pay the people we traded him for.


As a Jets fan, I think the biggest barrier to us getting Manning, (or any other team getting him) is his pending $28 Million bonus.
No one will want to shell out $28M now, for a hope that an aging superstar might be ready to play come August / September.

Also rebel, I don't entirely understand your statement. If the Colts are not paying Manning's exhorbitant salary, this would not free up enough money?
Is this because you are suggesting that the Colts would get a slew of talent in return?

Hillbilly Jim: Shaggy_C: We need a coach with a focus on defense, just like Tony Dungy. That's our biggest weakness.

Not sure if serious.

Absolutely serious. The reason the Colts looked like shiat this last year is because the backup QBs were either woefully unprepared or were completely out of their element. The Kerry Collins signing could have worked out, but he was out of shape, out of practice, and didn't know the plays at all. I don't think Painter would even be in the NFL if not for the fact that he was a cheap hire already living in Indiana and Orlovsky was even cut from the practice squad at the start of the year. Seriously, you think Manning being back in the mix would lead to the same dismal numbers you saw this year? When compared to the shiatshow that is our lineup of DBs, the offense should remain pretty much intact aside from the line, which was down to 3rd and 4th string all year due to injuries.

Willie Fistergash: Hillbilly Jim: Willie Fistergash: Also, who wouldn't want to see Payton Manning vs Tom Brady twice a year?!?

*raises hand*

Do you not remember Favre! playing Green Bay? This would be ten times worse.


Yeah ... about that. Favre played in green bay whilst playing for the Vikings, their mortal enemy. There is not that type of rivalry between the Jets and Colts ... whatsoever. There is however a substantial rivalry between the Jets and Patriots, you know, being divisional rivals and all. How much excitement would there be with the existing rivaly, and adding to it the matchup of the 2 best QBs in the AFC? (Twice a year).

I just hope by saying the 2 best QBs in the AFC I didn't open up a debate for Rapistberger and Te-Blow fanboys to chime in and douche this debate up.

I was just referring to hype from ESPN et al, they really don't require a back story to beat a narrative into the ground.

Willie Fistergash: rebelpride644: Sorry Jets fans (and anyone else who doesn't pay attention) Peyton isn't going anywhere. Not because he is going to play again in Indy all of a sudden, but because he is dead money against the cap.

If we traded Manning we wouldn't have enough cap space to pay the people we traded him for.


As a Jets fan, I think the biggest barrier to us getting Manning, (or any other team getting him) is his pending $28 Million bonus.
No one will want to shell out $28M now, for a hope that an aging superstar might be ready to play come August / September.

Also rebel, I don't entirely understand your statement. If the Colts are not paying Manning's exhorbitant salary, this would not free up enough money?
Is this because you are suggesting that the Colts would get a slew of talent in return?

Peyton is due $28 mil on 3/8. Trades cannot occur until 3/13. If they pay the bonus THEN trade him, the cap hit still goes against the Colts.

Peyton either stays or is cut and becomes a FA. No trades.

Shaggy_C: Hillbilly Jim: Shaggy_C: We need a coach with a focus on defense, just like Tony Dungy. That's our biggest weakness.

Not sure if serious.

Absolutely serious. The reason the Colts looked like shiat this last year is because the backup QBs were either woefully unprepared or were completely out of their element. The Kerry Collins signing could have worked out, but he was out of shape, out of practice, and didn't know the plays at all. I don't think Painter would even be in the NFL if not for the fact that he was a cheap hire already living in Indiana and Orlovsky was even cut from the practice squad at the start of the year. Seriously, you think Manning being back in the mix would lead to the same dismal numbers you saw this year? When compared to the shiatshow that is our lineup of DBs, the offense should remain pretty much intact aside from the line, which was down to 3rd and 4th string all year due to injuries.

My point was the Colts defense wasn't really anything to hang your hat on during the Dungy years.

Willie Fistergash: Also rebel, I don't entirely understand your statement. If the Colts are not paying Manning's exhorbitant salary, this would not free up enough money?

Manning's salary would still count towards our cap if we traded him.

See GardenWeasel's post for the fulll explanation.

I love Manning (hated him when he was a Vol) but I don't see him playing again. Hope I'm wrong.

GardenWeasel: Willie Fistergash: rebelpride644: Sorry Jets fans (and anyone else who doesn't pay attention) Peyton isn't going anywhere. Not because he is going to play again in Indy all of a sudden, but because he is dead money against the cap.

If we traded Manning we wouldn't have enough cap space to pay the people we traded him for.


As a Jets fan, I think the biggest barrier to us getting Manning, (or any other team getting him) is his pending $28 Million bonus.
No one will want to shell out $28M now, for a hope that an aging superstar might be ready to play come August / September.

Also rebel, I don't entirely understand your statement. If the Colts are not paying Manning's exhorbitant salary, this would not free up enough money?
Is this because you are suggesting that the Colts would get a slew of talent in return?

Peyton is due $28 mil on 3/8. Trades cannot occur until 3/13. If they pay the bonus THEN trade him, the cap hit still goes against the Colts.

Peyton either stays or is cut and becomes a FA. No trades.


My understanding was that they could cut him prior to the 3/8, without paying him his bonus, making him a FA, and then anyone who signed him would be forced to pay his $28M Bonus.
This would save Indy the cap hit, and force serious inquiries only into picking him up.

Hillbilly Jim: My point was the Colts defense wasn't really anything to hang your hat on during the Dungy years.

Well, let's be clear. The pass defense was great, it was our terrible run defense that was easily exposed again and again by opposing teams. Even in the most agonizing playoff defeats of the last ten years, typically it was Manning's choking against the 3-4 defense that cost us, not our defense. It was very seldom that the Colts were completely blown out.

Hillbilly Jim: I was just referring to hype from ESPN et al, they really don't require a back story to beat a narrative into the ground.

"Narrative" seems like such a neutral and passive a word to describe the things they do with facts and opinions.

Shaggy_C: Hillbilly Jim: My point was the Colts defense wasn't really anything to hang your hat on during the Dungy years.

Well, let's be clear. The pass defense was great, it was our terrible run defense that was easily exposed again and again by opposing teams. Even in the most agonizing playoff defeats of the last ten years, typically it was Manning's choking against the 3-4 defense that cost us, not our defense. It was very seldom that the Colts were completely blown out.

freeny and mathis used to be scary when they said fark the run ," the QB must go down and he must go down with a strip sack"

If nothing else, he'll understand the value of having a halfway competent backup QB so that if the starter misses time the team isn't going to go in the shiatter.

AdmirableSnackbar: If nothing else, he'll understand the value of having a halfway competent backup QB so that if the starter misses time the team isn't going to go in the shiatter.

Yeah like Vince Yo... oh.

Shaggy_C: Even in the most agonizing playoff defeats of the last ten years, typically it was Manning's choking against the 3-4 defense that cost us, not our defense.

I've been an avid and dedicated fan since the early 90's. I can't actually recall missing a game. These words you are speaking make no sense.

The 3-4 defense caused Manning to be more patient, but it didn't really affect the outcome of most games -- it simply caused the score to be a bit tighter. The only times I can readily recall Manning "choking" was in a game against the Chargers (apparently, our kryptonite) and another against the Browns (I think). The play-off game against the Patriots was a direct result of the Patriot defenders mugging our receivers. If the receivers can't get off the line of scrimage, you can really expect Manning to hit them with a pass, do you?

Recently, Manning has mastered the 3-4 defense. Our defense, however, has universally sucked (except for one play-off run). Don't get me wrong, I enjoy watching all of Freeney and Mathis' strip-fumbles -- but we haven't been able to consistently stop the run in about a decade or so. It's a problem I'm glad to see exposed during this year. Manning always saved our asses, but he wasn't there to do so this year. Every solid fan I know knew what was going to happen for this season. The 2-14 record supported our understanding of the situation.

Caveat emptor

Peyton will probably never play again. If he does play again, he will never be the Peyton of old. If he is healthy, and 100%, and on a new team he will be in a new offense with completely new teammates, and therefore not as effective as people want to believe.

Tumbleweed Garden: It won't be Fisher, he'd want too much control for Irsay's taste. And it doesn't seem like Cowher wants to coach anymore. I don't think Chuckie wants to coach anymore either, he just likes to muse. IMO it's going to be someone who is currently an OC or DC.

Please take Mike Bobo, pleeeeeease.

MugzyBrown: AdmirableSnackbar: If nothing else, he'll understand the value of having a halfway competent backup QB so that if the starter misses time the team isn't going to go in the shiatter.

Yeah like Vince Yo... oh.

Until the 4-game dead cat bounce at the end of the season against fellow dead cats, the Eagles were 3-6 with Vick and 1-2 with Young. So the Eagles backup kept pace with the starter and against two playoff teams. In fact, the only time the Eagles beat a playoff team this season was with Young at QB.

Blink: The 3-4 defense caused Manning to be more patient, but it didn't really affect the outcome of most games -- it simply caused the score to be a bit tighter. The only times I can readily recall Manning "choking" was in a game against the Chargers (apparently, our kryptonite) and another against the Browns (I think).

Here is our list of playoff losses from the last few years and the points the Colts put up offensively. Guess how many of these teams run a 3-4?

2010 - New York Jets - 17
2009 - New Orleans Saints - 17
2008 - San Diego Chargers - 17
2007 - San Diego Chargers - 24
2005 - Steelers - 18
2004 - Patriots - 14
2003 - Patriots - 3

All but one of them. Manning typically sees a passer rating decline of around 10 points when he plays a 3-4 defense. That's not always enough to lose the game, but in the high pressure games it often makes a huge difference.

Starhawk: Gruden has talked about wanting to get back into coaching, and he's salivated over the idea of coaching Peyton. And mysteriously, I haven't seen headlines about him interviewing anywhere else....

Oh please let this happen! Maybe I can start watching MNF with the sound on.

MugzyBrown: From the minds who drafted the following in the first 4 rounds in the past two seasons:

Casey Matthews - Sucks
Danny Watkins - Meh
Curtis Marsh - Who?
Jaiquan Jarret - Sucks
Brandon Graham - Sucks
Nate Allen - Sucks
Daniel Te'o-Nesheim - Sucks
Trevard Lindley - Sucks
Keenan Clayton - Sucks
Mike Kafta - Sucks
Clay Harbor - Meh

Enjoy that Indy.

That was all Andy Reid. he makes all the final decisions. I really wish you would've went farther back because there's more crappy players on that list. And that Brandon Graham pick really frustrated me. I don't mind Casey Matthews, but they were morons for making him a starter.

Maybe the Jets can get rid of big-mouth, fat fark, foot fetish Rex Ryan too .. and have Grudes coaching Peyton there.

Yeah!!!

Shaggy_C: Blink: The 3-4 defense caused Manning to be more patient, but it didn't really affect the outcome of most games -- it simply caused the score to be a bit tighter. The only times I can readily recall Manning "choking" was in a game against the Chargers (apparently, our kryptonite) and another against the Browns (I think).

Here is our list of playoff losses from the last few years and the points the Colts put up offensively. Guess how many of these teams run a 3-4?

2010 - New York Jets - 17
2009 - New Orleans Saints - 17
2008 - San Diego Chargers - 17
2007 - San Diego Chargers - 24
2005 - Steelers - 18
2004 - Patriots - 14
2003 - Patriots - 3

All but one of them. Manning typically sees a passer rating decline of around 10 points when he plays a 3-4 defense. That's not always enough to lose the game, but in the high pressure games it often makes a huge difference.

You're also ignoring all the other games he's played against the 3-4. Here's a good read: Link (new window)

Buck Henderson: Starhawk: Gruden has talked about wanting to get back into coaching, and he's salivated over the idea of coaching Peyton. And mysteriously, I haven't seen headlines about him interviewing anywhere else....

Oh please let this happen! Maybe I can start watching MNF with the sound on.

Not when the SHERIFF is in town.

PlymouthMeetingMall: That was all Andy Reid. he makes all the final decisions. I really wish you would've went farther back because there's more crappy players on that list. And that Brandon Graham pick really frustrated me. I don't mind Casey Matthews, but they were morons for making him a starter.

Well do be fair the year before they grabbed McCoy and Maclin.. Maclin's overhyped through, he's a product of the rest of the offense.

Indy's problem for the past years has been their D. Other than Cole, I can't think of a significant defensive draft pick in the past 10 years.

And I wish we knew who makes the final call on draft day. There are a lot of hands in the pot.

Shaggy_C: Here is our list of playoff losses from the last few years and the points the Colts put up offensively. Guess how many of these teams run a 3-4?

2010 - New York Jets - 17
2009 - New Orleans Saints - 17
2008 - San Diego Chargers - 17
2007 - San Diego Chargers - 24
2005 - Steelers - 18
2004 - Patriots - 14
2003 - Patriots - 3

And how many of those seasons ended on a missed Mike Vanderjagt kick?

Frozboz: Shaggy_C: Here is our list of playoff losses from the last few years and the points the Colts put up offensively. Guess how many of these teams run a 3-4?

2010 - New York Jets - 17
2009 - New Orleans Saints - 17
2008 - San Diego Chargers - 17
2007 - San Diego Chargers - 24
2005 - Steelers - 18
2004 - Patriots - 14
2003 - Patriots - 3

And how many of those seasons ended on a missed Mike Vanderjagt kick?

You also have to look at how many possessions the Colts got on offense in those games. Colts defense couldn't force punts or turnovers, so teams just ground down the clock. Off the top of my head, Manning only had 3 possessions in the second half against the Jets and scored on every drive. The colts are something stupid like 1-5 in games where they have no turnovers (since a certain year can't remember which). The rest of the NFL is like 38-2 in the same span. Manning has had a QB rating of over 90 in his last 5 losses.

Frozboz: Shaggy_C: Here is our list of playoff losses from the last few years and the points the Colts put up offensively. Guess how many of these teams run a 3-4?

2010 - New York Jets - 17
2009 - New Orleans Saints - 17
2008 - San Diego Chargers - 17
2007 - San Diego Chargers - 24
2005 - Steelers - 18
2004 - Patriots - 14
2003 - Patriots - 3

And how many of those seasons ended on a missed Mike Vanderjagt kick?

That Steelers game should never have come to a kick. If I remember correctly there was an overturned Manning interception that the announcers were openly referring to as the worst call they'd ever seen. I maintain that Tebow himself reached down and smited Vanderjagt's kick to right the balance of that game.

logggur: Frozboz: Shaggy_C: Here is our list of playoff losses from the last few years and the points the Colts put up offensively. Guess how many of these teams run a 3-4?

2010 - New York Jets - 17
2009 - New Orleans Saints - 17
2008 - San Diego Chargers - 17
2007 - San Diego Chargers - 24
2005 - Steelers - 18
2004 - Patriots - 14
2003 - Patriots - 3

And how many of those seasons ended on a missed Mike Vanderjagt kick?

That Steelers game should never have come to a kick. If I remember correctly there was an overturned Manning interception that the announcers were openly referring to as the worst call they'd ever seen. I maintain that Tebow himself reached down and smited Vanderjagt's kick to right the balance of that game.

Yeah the interception call was pretty bad. Either way, Vanderchoke wasn't going to make it. He made *one* clutch kick against the Broncos at Mile High (52 yard GW FG). His game winner against the Bucs in '03 was his 2nd attempt (leaping call). He lost more games than he won for us, especially in the playoffs. Either way, if Nick Harper's wife hadn't stabbed him in the knee the week of the game, he might have been able to outrun Rapelisberger and score a TD. Hell if he had just kept running straight it would have been a TD.

/damn it now I want to drink

Willie Fistergash: Peyton needs to get his arse over to the Jets!!!

All the Jets need is a decent QB to contend for the Superbowl next year.

Also, who wouldn't want to see Payton Manning vs Tom Brady twice a year?!?

Adding Manning to any team gives them a shot but the Jets problens run way deeper than Sanchez. Their running game went supernova and their receivers are prima donas who deem themselves too good to run a route properly. The defense isn't what it once was either.

redmid17: logggur: Frozboz: Shaggy_C: Here is our list of playoff losses from the last few years and the points the Colts put up offensively. Guess how many of these teams run a 3-4?

2010 - New York Jets - 17
2009 - New Orleans Saints - 17
2008 - San Diego Chargers - 17
2007 - San Diego Chargers - 24
2005 - Steelers - 18
2004 - Patriots - 14
2003 - Patriots - 3

And how many of those seasons ended on a missed Mike Vanderjagt kick?

That Steelers game should never have come to a kick. If I remember correctly there was an overturned Manning interception that the announcers were openly referring to as the worst call they'd ever seen. I maintain that Tebow himself reached down and smited Vanderjagt's kick to right the balance of that game.

Yeah the interception call was pretty bad. Either way, Vanderchoke wasn't going to make it. He made *one* clutch kick against the Broncos at Mile High (52 yard GW FG). His game winner against the Bucs in '03 was his 2nd attempt (leaping call). He lost more games than he won for us, especially in the playoffs. Either way, if Nick Harper's wife hadn't stabbed him in the knee the week of the game, he might have been able to outrun Rapelisberger and score a TD. Hell if he had just kept running straight it would have been a TD.

/damn it now I want to drink

Don't forget the 2001 Wild Card against Miami. Shanked potential GW kick in OT.

Forecaster18: redmid17: logggur: Frozboz: Shaggy_C: Here is our list of playoff losses from the last few years and the points the Colts put up offensively. Guess how many of these teams run a 3-4?

2010 - New York Jets - 17
2009 - New Orleans Saints - 17
2008 - San Diego Chargers - 17
2007 - San Diego Chargers - 24
2005 - Steelers - 18
2004 - Patriots - 14
2003 - Patriots - 3

And how many of those seasons ended on a missed Mike Vanderjagt kick?

That Steelers game should never have come to a kick. If I remember correctly there was an overturned Manning interception that the announcers were openly referring to as the worst call they'd ever seen. I maintain that Tebow himself reached down and smited Vanderjagt's kick to right the balance of that game.

Yeah the interception call was pretty bad. Either way, Vanderchoke wasn't going to make it. He made *one* clutch kick against the Broncos at Mile High (52 yard GW FG). His game winner against the Bucs in '03 was his 2nd attempt (leaping call). He lost more games than he won for us, especially in the playoffs. Either way, if Nick Harper's wife hadn't stabbed him in the knee the week of the game, he might have been able to outrun Rapelisberger and score a TD. Hell if he had just kept running straight it would have been a TD.

/damn it now I want to drink

Don't forget the 2001 Wild Card against Miami. Shanked potential GW kick in OT.

Wow , no wonder you bastards felt the need to poach Venitari away from the Pats despite Vanderjacks high field goal percentages

PirateFreedom: Forecaster18: redmid17: logggur: Frozboz: Shaggy_C: Here is our list of playoff losses from the last few years and the points the Colts put up offensively. Guess how many of these teams run a 3-4?

2010 - New York Jets - 17
2009 - New Orleans Saints - 17
2008 - San Diego Chargers - 17
2007 - San Diego Chargers - 24
2005 - Steelers - 18
2004 - Patriots - 14
2003 - Patriots - 3

And how many of those seasons ended on a missed Mike Vanderjagt kick?

That Steelers game should never have come to a kick. If I remember correctly there was an overturned Manning interception that the announcers were openly referring to as the worst call they'd ever seen. I maintain that Tebow himself reached down and smited Vanderjagt's kick to right the balance of that game.

Yeah the interception call was pretty bad. Either way, Vanderchoke wasn't going to make it. He made *one* clutch kick against the Broncos at Mile High (52 yard GW FG). His game winner against the Bucs in '03 was his 2nd attempt (leaping call). He lost more games than he won for us, especially in the playoffs. Either way, if Nick Harper's wife hadn't stabbed him in the knee the week of the game, he might have been able to outrun Rapelisberger and score a TD. Hell if he had just kept running straight it would have been a TD.

/damn it now I want to drink

Don't forget the 2001 Wild Card against Miami. Shanked potential GW kick in OT.

Wow , no wonder you bastards felt the need to poach Venitari away from the Pats despite Vanderjacks high field goal percentages

Vandetjagt was Nate Kaeding before Nate Kaeding.