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(ACLU)   ACLU: 92% of Gitmo detainees were never Al Qaeda. 86% turned over to coalition forces for a bounty. Youngest was 13. Oldest was ... 98. Over 200 FBI Agents reported abusive treatments. Bush released 532 prisoners. Obama: 68. 171 left   (aclu.org) divider line 178
    More: Asinine, Gitmo Detainees, ACLU, al-Qaeda, infographics, coalitions, Gitmo, Guantanamo  
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5183 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Jan 2012 at 12:48 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-01-12 02:08:54 AM

burning_bridge: violentsalvation: And about 25% of those released return to terrorism.

So that's like, what, 50 people in there at the most right now? That is a drop in the bucket of a sea of people who want to visit upon this country with harm. And you know what, its always been like that and will always be like that. It doesn't matter what someone's intent is or what they might later do, you can't prosecute or detain someone for potential crimes. And truth is due to the overwhelming bad PR it brings having them in there it causes us more harm now than the potential harm they represent if released.

The world is not safe. It never was. It never will be. Life sucks, get a helmet.


Well I agree with some of that, the world sucks and everyone hates us. We can't predict and prepare for everything, that is life. But don't you think the Afghani Civil Liberties Union should report recidivism as well as all the other bleeding heart figures? Or should they ignore it and ignore those recidivists who would blow me to smithereens and deny me my civil liberties?
 
2012-01-12 02:09:53 AM

burning_bridge: violentsalvation: And about 25% of those released return to terrorism.

So that's like, what, 50 people in there at the most right now? That is a drop in the bucket of a sea of people who want to visit upon this country with harm. And you know what, its always been like that and will always be like that. It doesn't matter what someone's intent is or what they might later do, you can't prosecute or detain someone for potential crimes. And truth is due to the overwhelming bad PR it brings having them in there it causes us more harm now than the potential harm they represent if released.

The world is not safe. It never was. It never will be. Life sucks, get a helmet.


seriously... whats the rate of reincarceration in the US like 60%?
 
2012-01-12 02:10:45 AM

muck4doo: Gosling: violentsalvation: And about 25% of those released return to terrorism.

Which is about 67% less than the number that have every right to after what we did.

You know that ex-Marine Iran sentenced to death? Don't think they don't have things like this on their mind when they make that sentence.

I wonder how many Iranians are being held at Gitmo?


From the Wikipedia list: Zero, or at least zero confirmed. Bakhtiar Bameri, the only known Iranian, was captured in 2002 and released in 2004. That doesn't mean Iran wouldn't take it into account, though, especially now with all the sanctions and the increased tensions.
 
2012-01-12 02:11:18 AM

Britney Spear's Speculum: I know a guy who knows a guy on good authority that cannot confirm or deny that there is an agency known by three letter acronym has tortured 13 year olds.


Glenn Beck has a three letter acronym?
 
2012-01-12 02:12:50 AM

GAT_00: violentsalvation: And about 25% of those released return to terrorism.

One, citation needed, and two, BFD. After what we did to them I'd want to kill some Americans too, and we have no right to keep them locked up.


Wow, for a second there I thought you might have the inside dope on what happens at Gitmo. Then I saw your profile and came to the conclusion that you're simply in early 20's and going through that whole, "I consider myself a Socialist because Socialism has only failed because it's never been tried by the right people and it's really a cool system if given the chance" phase. In other words, you're a moron.

/Damn, I've never actually attacked a farker like this before, but then again anyone who willfully considers themselves a Socialist has never lived under Socialism (been there, done that) and therefore is a moron. Sorry. You are. Grow up. No, I won't pay for your medical care.
//Also, PETA sucks.
 
2012-01-12 02:16:01 AM

Hickory-smoked: netweavr: Wars a biatch and this is one of the consequences.

We beat the Third Reich without this being one of the consequences.

Do you imagine yourself to be weaker than your grandparents' generation, or just more cowardly?


Consequences = Gitmo?? There were World War II POW camps located all over the U.S., including camps on Angel Island (in San Francisco Bay) and in Berkeley that held German and Italian prisoners. And those were indefinite detention, too...

/ Yes, I looked @ your profile...
 
2012-01-12 02:20:38 AM

Gosling: Mentat: And why do we have 171 left? Because the alternative is to send them back to Syria, which is in the middle of a civil war, or China, where they'll be tortured to death. We can't keep them in Ft. Leavenworth because the GOP has decided that we're dealing with a bunch of Lex Luthors and that if we put them in a maximum security prison in the middle of an Army base, Otis and Ms. Teschmacher will fly in on a hot air balloon and break everyone out.

Precisely. Basically the only politically acceptable path, the only one that won't be closed off as soon as it's spotted, is for every last detainee at Gitmo to die of old age without charge. In Gitmo. Can't even move them to some other prison, any other prison on Earth. Congress already shut off the avenue to American prisons, and the foreign ones will get the response 'Oh, yeah, disappear them to some other black site we don't know about!'

Basically, we have 171 stateless persons on our hands. People whom we've muddied to such a degree that nobody on Earth will ever accept them again. Every day, every month, every year a single one of them remains there, every enemy we've made can point at it and tell their people 'Fight to the last man, because if you get taken alive, the Americans will do that to you even if you never raised a hand in anger'. It's a recruiting poster every day they're still there.

You have to ask yourself, who's more dangerous: the people in Gitmo, or the people inspired by the plight of the people in Gitmo?


I guess the only half decent thing to do, which would be political suicide is change gitmo into a resort prison. "waste of tax payer money" (that fat guy already did that).

Hmmm, it is sad.

Maybe a covert operation to make them have nice arrangements, and then when media comes make it seem like a prison?
 
2012-01-12 02:31:25 AM

ObeliskToucher: Hickory-smoked: netweavr: Wars a biatch and this is one of the consequences.

We beat the Third Reich without this being one of the consequences.

Do you imagine yourself to be weaker than your grandparents' generation, or just more cowardly?

Consequences = Gitmo?? There were World War II POW camps located all over the U.S., including camps on Angel Island (in San Francisco Bay) and in Berkeley that held German and Italian prisoners. And those were indefinite detention, too...

/ Yes, I looked @ your profile...


I was just at Angel Island this weekend, and walked around the immigration station/detention facilities. We've kept people in pretty shiatty conditions for a long time.
 
2012-01-12 02:39:14 AM

violentsalvation: burning_bridge: violentsalvation: And about 25% of those released return to terrorism.

So that's like, what, 50 people in there at the most right now? That is a drop in the bucket of a sea of people who want to visit upon this country with harm. And you know what, its always been like that and will always be like that. It doesn't matter what someone's intent is or what they might later do, you can't prosecute or detain someone for potential crimes. And truth is due to the overwhelming bad PR it brings having them in there it causes us more harm now than the potential harm they represent if released.

The world is not safe. It never was. It never will be. Life sucks, get a helmet.

Well I agree with some of that, the world sucks and everyone hates us. We can't predict and prepare for everything, that is life. But don't you think the Afghani Civil Liberties Union should report recidivism as well as all the other bleeding heart figures? Or should they ignore it and ignore those recidivists who would blow me to smithereens and deny me my civil liberties?


1) Very mature

2) Recidivism has no bearing on civil liberties, unless you are a believer in the ends justifying the means.

3) Furthermore, your link begs the question on whether they were actually guilty of "terrorism" in the first place. Being in Guantanamo does not qualify as proof.
 
2012-01-12 02:41:21 AM
70 million a year. That seems excessive.
 
2012-01-12 02:43:17 AM
Obama's failure to close Guantanamo completely doesn't so much make me lose faith in him or his ideals, it makes me lose faith in the Presidency as a means to better the country, the entire Executive and Legislative branches, and the majority of the American people who think keeping the place open is the best idea. I still believe Obama would rather the place be closed, but what can he do? Most Americans want it open, Congress wants it open rather than figuring out how to deal with the detainees, and Obama wants to get re-elected so he's resigned to passing bills allowing a place Guantanamo to stay open, but with his "deep reservations" about certain aspects of the bills. It's sad watching an idealist get so beaten down by the system that he slowly becomes a part of it.

Still, he's better than Romney, am I right?
 
2012-01-12 02:46:41 AM
One hundred years from now, we'll probably be stranding people on asteroids or inside holodecks.
 
2012-01-12 02:46:49 AM

Gosling: Basically, we have 171 kidnapping victims on our hands.


Fixed that for you.
 
2012-01-12 02:56:59 AM
I must be behind the curve. Why are we torturing FBI agents, again?
 
2012-01-12 02:57:49 AM
This bizarre fixation that America is the only country that does "bad" things or has done "bad" things... is kinda asinine. This occurs the world over and very often in countries that like to immediately point the finger at the US.

...No, I'm not saying "Omg, everyone else does it so it's coo' if we do." I'm just kinda annoyed at the ranting statements that vilify and denigrate a country and a culture that has no dirtier a history than any other country and culture.
Everyone has behaved badly on a global scale. And honestly the US has been one of the better kids in class the past several decades. Heck, we barely qualify as a bully anymore. We're just that frustrated kid in the trenchcoat that sits in the back of the class and honestly wants to be left alone, but still wants to be loved, and is damned confused about that conflict of interests and eventually just lashes out while secretly feeling like a guilty douche.
~shrugs~


History is history.. you move forward and learn from it. You don't continue to beat the proverbial dead horse over and over again. To be frank.. to do that is just dumb.

Humans are shiate-flinging, self-serving, rape-monkeys. We've been that way ever since before the first hominid decided to try walking on two feet. To try and pretend otherwise is naive idealism.
Yes, we all would like to think people are better than unjustly imprisoning others, torturing others, raping others, exploiting others.. etc. Heck, I'm a cynic and even I sometimes like to believe that humanity, as a whole, can overcome its base nature. Unfortunately, I get disabused of that futile hope very quickly.
 
2012-01-12 02:59:09 AM

Car_Ramrod: Furthermore, your link begs the question on whether they were actually guilty of "terrorism" in the first place.


Wow, someone on the internet correctly used the phrase "begs the question."
 
2012-01-12 02:59:12 AM

TheJoe03: We also have had Japanese internment camps, Jim Crow laws, the Alien and Sedition Acts, Vietnam, Iraq, the Spanish-American War, dropping the atomic bomb in Japan, funding dictators across the globe, etc, etc.


One of these things is not like the other.
 
2012-01-12 03:04:04 AM

Passive Aggressive Larry: Obama's failure to close Guantanamo completely doesn't so much make me lose faith in him or his ideals, it makes me lose faith in the Presidency as a means to better the country, the entire Executive and Legislative branches, and the majority of the American people who think keeping the place open is the best idea. I still believe Obama would rather the place be closed, but what can he do? Most Americans want it open, Congress wants it open rather than figuring out how to deal with the detainees, and Obama wants to get re-elected so he's resigned to passing bills allowing a place Guantanamo to stay open, but with his "deep reservations" about certain aspects of the bills. It's sad watching an idealist get so beaten down by the system that he slowly becomes a part of it.

Still, he's better than Romney, am I right?


Essentially.

I mean, we HAVE other options, but when the American Public gladly pays the American Media to hedge them out or beat them down we can only blame ourselves.

"If anyone in this shiathole city gave two tugs of a dead dog's cock about Truth, this wouldn't be happening."
 
2012-01-12 03:04:42 AM

Why Yes I Am A Wizard: We perused the monsters with such vigor we became monsters ourselves.

Do the ends justify the means?


"Pursued"

/Obvious typo. Duly noted.
//Everyone else, please just let it go.
 
2012-01-12 03:10:49 AM
Why not just dump them where they found them? Put them in a helicopter, give them a few days worth of supplies and some money and dump them somewhere in Afghanistan.
 
2012-01-12 03:16:15 AM

ZydrateZombie: This bizarre fixation that America is the only country that does "bad" things or has done "bad" things... is kinda asinine. This occurs the world over and very often in countries that like to immediately point the finger at the US.


People shiat on China and Japan and Britain and every other power for their past and present and potential future. You just don't CARE or even notice because you don't live there and can't be bothered to pay attention. And I don't care if you "feel their pain" or empathize with other nations, but don't whine like you're getting special mistreatment.

Thing about Gitmo is, worse than the fact that we engaged in kidnapping and torture is how POINTLESS it was. The CIA subcontracted renditions, detainments, and torture to the shiatty countries that HAVE those jackasses. Pay Pakistan for information and you get information, pay Pakistan for "people with information" and you get whoever they found sleeping on the street and didn't particularly like the look of.

But no, the neocons wanted to stare at their shiny prison and their CIA goon squad and dream little dreams of old cold-war glories and jerk off like ugly apes in humping season. And so we get billion-dollar boondoggles and piles of stinking muslim prisoners we have no use for and difficulty getting rid of. Well-farking-done.
 
2012-01-12 03:19:28 AM

Hickory-smoked: netweavr: Wars a biatch and this is one of the consequences.

We beat the Third Reich without this being one of the consequences.

Do you imagine yourself to be weaker than your grandparents' generation, or just more cowardly?


By "we" I'm assuming you're Russian.
 
2012-01-12 03:21:21 AM

Passive Aggressive Larry: Obama's failure to close Guantanamo completely doesn't so much make me lose faith in him or his ideals, it makes me lose faith in the Presidency as a means to better the country, the entire Executive and Legislative branches, and the majority of the American people who think keeping the place open is the best idea. I still believe Obama would rather the place be closed, but what can he do? Most Americans want it open, Congress wants it open rather than figuring out how to deal with the detainees, and Obama wants to get re-elected so he's resigned to passing bills allowing a place Guantanamo to stay open, but with his "deep reservations" about certain aspects of the bills. It's sad watching an idealist get so beaten down by the system that he slowly becomes a part of it.

Still, he's better than Romney, am I right?


This. Obama seems to have lost quite a bit of his mojo. I think he really did have big ideas about "hope and change" and then ran smack into the stone wall of reality in DC. Now he seems to be just going through the motions. I wonder why he even wants a second term.
 
2012-01-12 03:23:36 AM

bikkurikun: Why not just dump them where they found them? Put them in a helicopter, give them a few days worth of supplies and some money and dump them somewhere in Afghanistan.


Law.

Law involving deportation is weird, but dumping a Pakistani citizen in Afghanistan when he will commit crimes against the new Afghan government is somewhere between, "Landmine treaty" and "Act of war."

Also, a lot of those boys still in the pokey ARE terrorists, we just have no solid evidence, no use for them, and in all those constitution-shredding laws we passed letting us take 'em, there are NO provisions for disposing of them. I'm not sure the Federal government even DOES executions anymore, and they aren't IN Texas.
 
2012-01-12 03:26:55 AM

wallywam1: Why Yes I Am A Wizard: We perused the monsters with such vigor we became monsters ourselves.

Do the ends justify the means?

"Pursued"

/Obvious typo. Duly noted.
//Everyone else, please just let it go.


Technically, in a way, they're both correct.
 
2012-01-12 04:04:44 AM

Suede head: Hickory-smoked: netweavr: Wars a biatch and this is one of the consequences.

We beat the Third Reich without this being one of the consequences.

Do you imagine yourself to be weaker than your grandparents' generation, or just more cowardly?

By "we" I'm assuming you're Russian.


THIS.

although, to be fair, the russians *did* stuff like this and much worse to both the germans they caught and to their own guys. ever heard of "penal battalions"? (strafbattalionen in german, the russians i think even took on this word)

dont forget kids: 80% of all german casualties were done at the hands of the russians. the west kept em afloat so they could do this feat (by feeding them, fueling them, supplying them etc), but the russians get the credit for defeating the nazis in my book. they did most of the fighting and dying.

normandy wouldve been a larger scale dieppe if most of the wehrmacht hadnt been stuck in the east.
 
2012-01-12 04:15:46 AM

AssAsInAssassin: It always amuses me when so-called conservatives speak of "God-given" rights, and then act like those same rights are privileges of membership in Club America. I once got a neo-con to admit that he didn't care if any of the detainees were innocent, or if the Constitution extends habeas corpus to all accused, citizen or no.


Looking at that graphic, seems to me that President Obama cares less about that rights of those not in "Club America" than did his predecessor - and I'm a fan of neither. NDAA fairly well proves the President doesn't give a rip about the rights of those in "Club America," either, so maybe you could clarify what conservative or liberal has to do with the discussion?
 
2012-01-12 04:53:43 AM
Let me preface by saying that imo we have no business having secret prisons, Gitmo, or state-sanctioned torture. It's despicable. Further, I generally support the ACLU and think that the piece is pretty decent overall. That said...

There are a lot of ways to spin numbers. Without having an accurate in/out timeline and just going by gross numbers (but also realizing that 239 is fairly close to 247) you could also say:

% of total available prisoners released by Bush: 68%
% of total available prisoners released by Obama: 27%

But that would be disingenuous, too, if only because we'd probably rightly assume that Obama was left with the dregs.

I'm not damning the whole piece as created. I'm only pointing out that there are some pretty creative ways to fool with numbers to support a position. To wit, the Bush administration released 768% more prisoners than the Obama. That figure's pretty meaningless in a vacuum yet I assert that the RNC isn't above putting that in a hit piece during the election.

/Disclaimer: I'm not singling out the RNC here. I have equal disdain for and lack of trust in the DNC. And even less respect for those who parrot press releases and talking points and call it news.
 
2012-01-12 05:16:00 AM
The USA should be ashamed of itself for having done the whole GITMO thing.

violentsalvation: And about 25% of those released return to terrorism.


I'm an Eagle scout, And a vet, and if you put me in that place, I would "return" to terrorism.

I'd come for you first.
 
2012-01-12 05:16:31 AM

JustTheTip: .... I wonder why he even wants a second term.


Have you seen the other people running? Haven't you ever been part of a project and said, "yeah, you know what, this is important, I'm not leaving it to you idiots. I'll do it my damn self?"

I mean, do you WANT Mitt Romney to appoint Supreme Court Justices? Howe about Newt?
 
2012-01-12 05:17:16 AM

vudukungfu: The USA should be ashamed of itself for having done the whole GITMO thing.

violentsalvation: And about 25% of those released return to terrorism.

I'm an Eagle scout, And a vet, and if you put me in that place, I would "return" to terrorism.

I'd come for you first.


You can always tell real vets from chickenhawks.
 
2012-01-12 05:28:29 AM

ghare: You can always tell real vets from chickenhawks.


And you can always tell who has nothing better to do than troll Americans.

Enjoy your fascism.
You worked hard for it.
 
2012-01-12 05:44:16 AM
92% of Gitmo detainees were never Al Qaeda

Well they are now.
 
2012-01-12 05:54:10 AM

limboslam: GAT_00: violentsalvation: And about 25% of those released return to terrorism.

No, I won't pay for your medical care.
.


Do you pay taxes ?
Do you pay healthcare premiums ?

Then you ALREADY pay for his medical care.
 
2012-01-12 05:54:45 AM

God-is-a-Taco: What battle have we actually won against terrorism?
For anything we might have gained, we lost far more.


I don't know, who is "we"? The feds have gained the right to call political dissidents terrorists and have them disappeared forever. So, someone won.
 
2012-01-12 06:04:59 AM
"Ron Paul or STFU." I can't believe how many fark threads can be summed up that way.

/Put that sign in my yard
 
2012-01-12 06:11:19 AM

downpaymentblues: violentsalvation: And about 25% of those released return to terrorism.

Too bad we can't get that low of a recidivism rate from our U.S. prisoners.


Yeah, apparently whatever were doing in gitmo is working.
 
2012-01-12 06:20:44 AM
When Colin Powell resigns you start wondering but when 7 prosecutors request reassignment you don't need confirmation. My parents vote for the monsters who made this possible, and they're proud of it.
 
2012-01-12 06:22:59 AM
Did we not also round up the Japanese on American soil after Pearl Harbor, just in case?

Looking at the chart, if 89 detainees are CLEARED FOR RELEASE, and we're paying $70,000,000 for those guys, why not take them in 2s and 3s, drop them off at a number of scattered airstrips in the mideast, give 'em each a case of water and a week's worth of MREs, and let 'em fend for themselves?
 
2012-01-12 06:29:55 AM
The ACLU is not a credible source.
 
2012-01-12 06:36:26 AM

vudukungfu: ghare: You can always tell real vets from chickenhawks.

And you can always tell who has nothing better to do than troll Americans.

Enjoy your fascism.
You worked hard for it.


Dude, you got it backwards. violentsalvation is a chickenhawk. Not you.
 
2012-01-12 06:37:54 AM

evoke: The ACLU is not a credible source


According to some pseudonymous barking dog on Fark?
 
2012-01-12 06:40:36 AM

ghare: Dude, you got it backwards. violentsalvation is a chickenhawk. Not you.


Oops. Sorry.

Pretty sick here with Bronchitis.
Trying to process is difficult.
 
2012-01-12 06:53:05 AM
The crap we pull "over there" is unbelievable. And yet, when it comes home to kick us in the nuts, everybody is surprised as hell.

In a 2007 Republican presidential debate, the former New York mayor and then current GOP front-runner angrily refused to entertain a serious discussion about the role that actions taken by the U.S. prior to 9/11 may have played in inspiring those attacks.

www.global-air.com
 
2012-01-12 07:02:08 AM

vudukungfu: ghare: Dude, you got it backwards. violentsalvation is a chickenhawk. Not you.

Oops. Sorry.

Pretty sick here with Bronchitis.
Trying to process is difficult.


As is clear from your Weeners, mr eagle scout ITG.
 
2012-01-12 07:07:42 AM

Gosling: violentsalvation: And about 25% of those released return to terrorism.

Which is about 67% less than the number that have every right to after what we did.

You know that ex-Marine Iran sentenced to death? Don't think they don't have things like this on their mind when they make that sentence.


So our unlawful detention of a suspected Taliban or al qaeda member (neither of whom are allies with Iran), explains the rationale for the execution of an American who had nothing do to with the creation of gitmo?

How many Iranians would it be appropriate to kill for 9/11 then?
 
2012-01-12 07:12:48 AM
Anyone remember when the United States set a good example? Guantanamo isn't quite the "lead by example" I want out of my country.
 
2012-01-12 07:16:14 AM

ObeliskToucher: Hickory-smoked: netweavr: Wars a biatch and this is one of the consequences.

We beat the Third Reich without this being one of the consequences.

Do you imagine yourself to be weaker than your grandparents' generation, or just more cowardly?

Consequences = Gitmo?? There were World War II POW camps located all over the U.S., including camps on Angel Island (in San Francisco Bay) and in Berkeley that held German and Italian prisoners. And those were indefinite detention, too...

/ Yes, I looked @ your profile...


Exactly. Every war has POW camps where captured enemy are held without trial. Likewise, in postwar occupation of Germany and japan, insurgents werent just let go as soon as they were caught.

The difference here is that Afghanistan is still farked up, whereas germany and japan were straightened out four years after the wars ended.
 
2012-01-12 07:40:46 AM

Britney Spear's Speculum: I like turtles.

I know a guy who knows a guy on good authority that cannot confirm or deny that there is an agency known by three letter acronym has tortured 13 year olds.


Thank you Simone.

/I guess it's pretty serious.
 
2012-01-12 07:41:04 AM
Obama 2012.
 
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