If people don't want to get shot and killed they shouldn't live at an address that police think may be home to criminals.

This article seems to be arguing in favor of more quasi-military style police raids not against it.

cgraves67: This article seems to be arguing in favor of more quasi-military style police raids not against it.

Really?

fta:
"He said law enforcement officials should focus more on attempting to lure suspects out into the open or simply "wait them out."

Actually, it isn't the innocent people getting killed during raids on the wrong addresses that prompted this review, it's police getting killed during raids on the wrong address by battle hardened vets returning from Iraq that prompted this review.

/subby must not have read the article.

cgraves67: This article seems to be arguing in favor of more quasi-military style police raids not against it.

I fear for ex-military answering their doors.

FTFA.
The officers, members of a narcotics strike force, were met at the door by a former soldier, who allegedly opened fire on the squad, killing 30-year-old Ogden officer Jared Francom.

threadjackistan: Actually, it isn't the innocent people getting killed during raids on the wrong addresses that prompted this review, it's police getting killed during raids on the wrong address by battle hardened vets returning from Iraq that prompted this review.

/subby must not have read the article.

Yeah I guess they had it too easy for a while. Suddenly, there are tons of people around that know how to defend themselves against their illegal raids.

Whether the police are at risk of injury is the major deciding factor in police tactics these days. When in doubt, tase or use pepper spray to incapacitate a person, because anyone could be carrying a weapon. When you question whether it's necessary to tase someone who is not actively resisting arrest or threatening anyone, the police will respond by saying that it's preferable to putting the "perp" in a chokehold, which is apparently the only other option.

I can understand the fear cops must face in their interactions with the public, but a) it's readily apparent that they care almost exclusively about their own safety; and b) they're not doing themselves any favors on the safety front by escalating so many encounters with the use of force and "less lethal" weapons.

cgraves67
This article seems to be arguing in favor of more quasi-military style police raids not against it.

"Quasi"?

"Police work can be 99% boredom and 1% panic"

libranoelrose: threadjackistan: Actually, it isn't the innocent people getting killed during raids on the wrong addresses that prompted this review, it's police getting killed during raids on the wrong address by battle hardened vets returning from Iraq that prompted this review.

/subby must not have read the article.

Where in the headline does it say anything about innocent people getting killed?

In the first sentence. There is no mention of innocents in the article whatsoever. The prospect of innocent people being harmed doesn't matter in the slightest to these people.

Here's the deal with police firepower, it is misused in an offensive fashion.

I feel that every police department should have access some kind of uparmored SUV (if not something heavier) that has ballistic protection on it. So the police can pull up, get on the PA system and announce "Hey so and so we have a warrant for your arrest. Come out."

If the guy comes out, hooray. If the guy leans out the window with a weapon, the officers will be fine since they're in an armored vehicle. Unless the dude somehow got his hands on a RPG. Also at the point he leans out the window with a rifle, the police should feel free to blow his head off with their fancy .50 caliber sniper rifle (although due to risks of over penetration, a lower caliber weapon is better). The police can have some sniper hanging out on a roof across the street to cover the guys in the armored car.

If you're worried about him taking hostages, jump his ass when he's in line at the drive thru or walks out to get his mail.

In the rare edge case where you have someone armed to the teeth, with plenty of potential hostages, and who lives the life of a total shut in, then we can bring in the FBI and consider some kind of fancy strike team raid.

Basically push the no knock up to the level where only specifically trained state police, FBI, and US Marshal teams can use it (and they have to get approval from a grand jury, federal judge, or something).

The problem is we let the police buy all kinds of fancy offensive weapon toys. In reality we should get them that heavy ceramic plate body armor, armor up their cruisers, and equip them to play defense first. Restrict who can run around like a bunch of wannabe Navy SEALs and engage in offensive raids.

Because all cops want to be SWAT hero tough guys and dress up in tactical gear like an ubercommando. Stupid cops, stupid militarized fascist authoritarian culture.

HotWingConspiracy: threadjackistan: Actually, it isn't the innocent people getting killed during raids on the wrong addresses that prompted this review, it's police getting killed during raids on the wrong address by battle hardened vets returning from Iraq that prompted this review.

/subby must not have read the article.

Yeah I guess they had it too easy for a while. Suddenly, there are tons of people around that know how to defend themselves against their illegal raids.

The coming years are going to be very interesting. As the government turns to totalitarianism and the police get more violent, the people have more and more reason to pick up arms and start shooting. The vets aren't going to back down from a fight. They may be fighting to preserve the nation or to build a new one or to carve out their own little fiefdom.

The big question is, what are you going to fight for?

ha-ha-guy: Here's the deal with police firepower, it is misused in an offensive fashion.

I feel that every police department should have access some kind of uparmored SUV (if not something heavier) that has ballistic protection on it. So the police can pull up, get on the PA system and announce "Hey so and so we have a warrant for your arrest. Come out."

If the guy comes out, hooray. If the guy leans out the window with a weapon, the officers will be fine since they're in an armored vehicle. Unless the dude somehow got his hands on a RPG. Also at the point he leans out the window with a rifle, the police should feel free to blow his head off with their fancy .50 caliber sniper rifle (although due to risks of over penetration, a lower caliber weapon is better). The police can have some sniper hanging out on a roof across the street to cover the guys in the armored car.

If you're worried about him taking hostages, jump his ass when he's in line at the drive thru or walks out to get his mail.

In the rare edge case where you have someone armed to the teeth, with plenty of potential hostages, and who lives the life of a total shut in, then we can bring in the FBI and consider some kind of fancy strike team raid.

Basically push the no knock up to the level where only specifically trained state police, FBI, and US Marshal teams can use it (and they have to get approval from a grand jury, federal judge, or something).

The problem is we let the police buy all kinds of fancy offensive weapon toys. In reality we should get them that heavy ceramic plate body armor, armor up their cruisers, and equip them to play defense first. Restrict who can run around like a bunch of wannabe Navy SEALs and engage in offensive raids.

If you're obeying the law, you have nothing to worry about.

"You can have all of the [post-9/11 Homeland Security grant-bought] equipment in the world, but if somebody wants to kill you, they will if you give them the opportunity,"

War on terror + war on drugs. At some point we should remember that police are not supposed to be fighting a "war". They're supposed to use force in a way that maintains a civilization, not crushes it. This is the difference between police and military missions.

the militarization of the police in this nation is god damn farking ridiculous. it's funny how when the cops dress for combat they tend to find it. it's stupid. it's dangerous. and it should stop.

"You have sixty seconds to comply."

ha-ha-guy: Unless the dude somehow got his hands on a RPG

Let the lessons of Nakatomi Towers never be forgotten.

Well, it was in Ogden - The City That Will Work For Food

indylaw: Whether the police are at risk of injury is the major deciding factor in police tactics these days. When in doubt, tase or use pepper spray to incapacitate a person, because anyone could be carrying a weapon. When you question whether it's necessary to tase someone who is not actively resisting arrest or threatening anyone, the police will respond by saying that it's preferable to putting the "perp" in a chokehold, which is apparently the only other option.

I can understand the fear cops must face in their interactions with the public, but a) it's readily apparent that they care almost exclusively about their own safety; and b) they're not doing themselves any favors on the safety front by escalating so many encounters with the use of force and "less lethal" weapons.

As you say from a PR standpoint, they're doing themselves any favors by showing more concern about themselves rather than concern about the public, and most of them are clueless to this. the entitlement mentality at work, "the public should be concerned about us(AKA LE), we don't have to be concerned about them." When it comes to their image in the eyes of the public, they are often their own worst enemy.

Smeggy Smurf: HotWingConspiracy: threadjackistan: Actually, it isn't the innocent people getting killed during raids on the wrong addresses that prompted this review, it's police getting killed during raids on the wrong address by battle hardened vets returning from Iraq that prompted this review.

/subby must not have read the article.

Yeah I guess they had it too easy for a while. Suddenly, there are tons of people around that know how to defend themselves against their illegal raids.

The coming years are going to be very interesting. As the government turns to totalitarianism and the police get more violent, the people have more and more reason to pick up arms and start shooting. The vets aren't going to back down from a fight. They may be fighting to preserve the nation or to build a new one or to carve out their own little fiefdom.

The big question is, what are you going to fight for?

I'll fight to control the toilet paper supply chain.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Imagine that...a bunch of high-school drop outs join the police force because it helps them deal with their inferiority complex. Then, they get all kinds of fancy military equipment to help them infringe on the rights of non-cops and non-cop families....and a bunch of them get taken out.

I don't see what the big deal is. Even Benjamin Franklin said that from time to time, the government needs a reminder that the People will only put up with so much before those in power start paying for their indescretions with their blood.

So a couple of wanna-bes who were too stupid or scared to actually join the military get killed. It's Darwinian: The weak and the stupid die off.

Wow! If only there was a way to cut down on the number of drug warrants police have to serve?

"But, dear, you bought a, ummm, black dildo for us to use"

"What about it? I'd be nailing a black guy anyway, while you're away. Well, (giggle) actually I already have, but I didn't want you to feel left out."

libranoelrose: threadjackistan: libranoelrose: threadjackistan: Actually, it isn't the innocent people getting killed during raids on the wrong addresses that prompted this review, it's police getting killed during raids on the wrong address by battle hardened vets returning from Iraq that prompted this review.

/subby must not have read the article.

Where in the headline does it say anything about innocent people getting killed?

In the first sentence. There is no mention of innocents in the article whatsoever. The prospect of innocent people being harmed doesn't matter in the slightest to these people.

I agree that they don't care whether they kill innocent people or not, I just don't see the word innocent anywhere in the first sentence.

Civilian is as near a stand in for "innocent" as we'll get out of this bunch. Otherwise you are a "criminal".

Fark the pigs and their unconstitutional raids.

Madbassist1: Also:
indylaw: but a) it's readily apparent that they care almost exclusively about their own safety;

FTFY

Actually the whole "safety" argument is kind of bogus. Any kind of body armor that you can move around in can be penetrated at close ranges (read: in home) by the more powerful rifles you can buy at your local gun shop. If you notice whenever the big guns come out, the SWAT Team ends up being transported in by armored vehicle as opposed to a bum rushing up the guy's front lawn on foot. All while other guys lay down suppressive fire, tear gas, etc.

This whole no knock thing is all about playing real life Counterstrike or whatever. They just use safety as an excuse.

JackieRabbit: "But, dear, you bought a, ummm, black dildo for us to use"

"What about it? I'd be nailing a black guy anyway, while you're away. Well, (giggle) actually I already have, but I didn't want you to feel left out."

Oddly enough, I know the exact thread this was supposed to be posted in.

A Fark Handle: the militarization of the police in this nation is god damn farking ridiculous. it's funny how when the cops dress for combat they tend to find it. it's stupid. it's dangerous. and it should stop.

THIS.

You don't need firearms to fight them.
Just buy icepicks.

They're small, easily concealed and effortlessly slipped into an ear canal in one smooth motion. Befriend the fascists, invite them for dinner, smile at them, then, before dessert, slip them an icepick. No muss, no fuss.

Don't even try to meet force with equal force. If the police go to conventional force and weapons, the best way to fight them is by unconventional means, asymmetrically. Never fight conventional forces on their own terms.
Icepicks.

/I keed, I keed.
//Ham for dinner and I think there's pie.
///Want some?

ha-ha-guy: The problem is we let the police buy all kinds of fancy offensive weapon toys. In reality we should get them that heavy ceramic plate body armor, armor up their cruisers, and equip them to play defense first.

Cops never play defense.

It's dark, someone's broken my door and shot my dog, there is no reasonable reason for a police raid on my property (if I was a criminal I'd give the intruders the benefit of the doubt and just say "okay, you got me"), there are no blue and red lights spinning outside and no guy with a bullhorn...

... fast forward 2 weeks and the police department is mourning the death of at least two officers and quietly apologizing to my widow and children for (transposed address numbers on the warrant/bad info from a jailhouse informant).

I put my guns down years ago, professionally. You can't fight autopilot, though. More and more people like me are entering civilian life everyday. We were trained and conditioned to react a certain way to a certain stimulus. This will end badly if the local law enforcement agencies continue to play Baghdad.

You mean people might respond out of terror with violence to defend themselves when something that looks like a Russian Stormtrooper busts through their door?

These actions, and manner of dress, and way of doing 'business' in the interest of serving and protecting are numbing people to an eventual full police state. There is a psychology of fear in this uniform and what they do when they wear it.

/pigs

Cops SHOULD get hurt, too. Because that is the only farking way they they ever learn anything.

A cop who survives a night of molesting his fellow citizens and lives to do it again is a farking missed opportunity.

You get the people who think they are being robbed, or they are crazy or they panic. It throws a wrench in it because not all police are used to getting actually shot at. Training goes out the window (or was never there to begin with) and you get one guy taking out six like in Utah. And if they had just done like the person in the article is quoted: wait it out. You would likely have no dead officers. I think this is a good move, although people who spent all that grant money on fancy toys and training won't like it.

Tat'dGreaser: SWAT is highly trained and usually have former military SF in their ranks.

that might have been true when there were 4 swat teams in the nation. now that every city over 25,000 seems to have a swat force, not so much...now swat is a bunch of fat men that want to play make-believe rambo. they dress up for combat and shockingly they tend to find it. for example, that arizona case where they shot 70+ rounds an armed combat vet hitting him ~20 times. highly trained folks do not drop 70+ rounds down a hallway at one suspect. highly trained folks do not have a hit rate of less than 30%. hell iirc they had five dudes shooting in that incident. highly trained folks don't have 5 dudes piled on top of each other unloading a magazine.

Tat'dGreaser: Imagine the cost of sitting there for days on end. Food, pay, equipment cost.

When did I ever say sit there for days and days? If he doesn't come out other options can be considered. in the worst case I'm also much more willing to have my tax dollars pay for a siege than a wrongful death lawsuit when the cops knock the wrong door down and kill a homeowner who thinks it is a home invasion.
So now you have someone firing randomly into a populated neighborhood. You're worried about civilian deaths but want to fire a .50 cal into a building?

Awww, you missed the whole () thing talking about over penetration didn't you? The .50 caliber comment was a tongue in cheek comment about how the cops like all the fancy military toys. One would assume they would use a more practical rifle for such operations in reality.


Most of the intel the cops get is sudden and expires quickly. As in "If we don't take this guy now we'll never get him".


It expires quickly, yet they still have time to get a warrant and put together a strike team... Clearly there is no way the police would have time to assign an undercover unit to follow the guy or anything like that. It's load the SWAT Team in the SUV, rush them over there, and breach or let the guy escape on the next flight to Mexico...


SWAT is highly trained and usually have former military SF in their ranks.


High level SWAT is. However the breach teams assembled by the local sheriff departments and the like are not. That is why they fark up, shoot the dog, and do other dumb stuff. In many cases post 9/11 the local police force got some money from Homeland Security and created a SWAT Team. This team has minimal training but the best toys money can buy. Hence my comment to restrict no knocks to the State Police, FBI, and US Marshals. All of which maintain professional SWAT Teams (well most state police units do) that consist of ex military or career SWAT guys. Your county breach team likely has some guys who got a few weekends of training off the state guys or a private contractor and you're lucky if half the guys on it are ex military (and not likely ex-SF since they can go clear a larger check working for the FBI HRT or as a bodyguard).

The entire Waco mess could have been avoided if they simply picked up Koresh when he was out jogging or going to the store. Instead, they *had* to play uber-commandos and assault the compound directly with SWAT guys hiding in a horse trailer and all the other crap.

There should be only ONE SWAT team authorized per county or region, enough for legitimate use based on actual SWAT-worthy incidents in the area.

Enough with the cops playing GI-Joe! We're the public, the taxpayers, not the enemy, and we're not an population that has to be occupied....

Tat'dGreaser: Most of the intel the cops get is sudden and expires quickly. As in "If we don't take this guy now we'll never get him".

Many no-knock warrants are for adresses only. The house isn't going to expire, and they make no effort to make sure the criminal is there.

Tat'dGreaser: SWAT is highly trained and usually have former military SF in their ranks

No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_knock_warrant#Examples

Po-dung towns hurs from a major city have swat teams, they aren;t highly trained (3 weeks isn't highly trained in my book)

JackieRabbit: "But, dear, you bought a, ummm, black dildo for us to use"

"What about it? I'd be nailing a black guy anyway, while you're away. Well, (giggle) actually I already have, but I didn't want you to feel left out."

Not to mention killing lap dogs and other pets over a non-violent warrant or drug possession charge. Not to mention the ones done at the wrong address.

But how could cops look each other in the eye in the shower room if they can't regale in tactical entries with each other.

Besides the owners and dogs reacted threatengly to an armed home breach by police yelling police at 2am with the sound of flashbangs battering rams, police dogs and a dozen armed men stomping in the door, but hey. They have "police" written on their backs so they should know.

indylaw: ha-ha-guy: Here's the deal with police firepower, it is misused in an offensive fashion.

I feel that every police department should have access some kind of uparmored SUV (if not something heavier) that has ballistic protection on it. So the police can pull up, get on the PA system and announce "Hey so and so we have a warrant for your arrest. Come out."

If the guy comes out, hooray. If the guy leans out the window with a weapon, the officers will be fine since they're in an armored vehicle. Unless the dude somehow got his hands on a RPG. Also at the point he leans out the window with a rifle, the police should feel free to blow his head off with their fancy .50 caliber sniper rifle (although due to risks of over penetration, a lower caliber weapon is better). The police can have some sniper hanging out on a roof across the street to cover the guys in the armored car.

If you're worried about him taking hostages, jump his ass when he's in line at the drive thru or walks out to get his mail.

In the rare edge case where you have someone armed to the teeth, with plenty of potential hostages, and who lives the life of a total shut in, then we can bring in the FBI and consider some kind of fancy strike team raid.

Basically push the no knock up to the level where only specifically trained state police, FBI, and US Marshal teams can use it (and they have to get approval from a grand jury, federal judge, or something).

The problem is we let the police buy all kinds of fancy offensive weapon toys. In reality we should get them that heavy ceramic plate body armor, armor up their cruisers, and equip them to play defense first. Restrict who can run around like a bunch of wannabe Navy SEALs and engage in offensive raids.

If you're obeying the law, you have nothing to worry about.

Unless the cops have the wrong address and that address happens to be yours...

From this; to this; only took one generation.

What's the next one going to look like?

8DragonFark: Unless the cops have the wrong address and that address happens to be yours...

Then I might question why your address is similar to that of a drug trafficker.