The idiot just described Israel

So if Santorum gets elected and we become a theocracy too everything will be hunky-dory, right?

acanuck: The idiot just described Israel

He just described why any religious person shouldn't be President.

What an idiot.

acanuck: The idiot just described Israel religion.

FTFY

WTF? The only difference between him and the Iranian govt. is nationality and different sky wizards.

You know what's even worse than Rick Santorum being a hypocritical idiot?

Links that go directly to MSNBC videos with embedded ads, that's what.

Mixolydian Master: [urlybits.com image 460x700]

WTF? The only difference between him and the Iranian govt. is nationality and different sky wizards.

No, it's the same sky-wizard. Just different earth prophets. Actually, not even that. Jesus was a prophet in Islamic theology

Takes one to know one, huh Ricky?

acanuck: The idiot just described Israel

Actually, Jews don't believe in an afterlife, so in that respect at least, no, it actually doesn't describe Israel.

Cyberluddite: acanuck: The idiot just described Israel

Actually, Jews don't believe in an afterlife, so in that respect at least, no, it actually doesn't describe Israel.

I had no idea that was the case; what do Jews believe? I always assumed they did, what with the no tattoos to be buried in a Jewish cemetery thing. A co-worker said she was going to get a small tattoo of her son's name, but decided against it because she wanted to be buried with her husband and family. I figured that was somehow tied into an afterlife.

/Honestly not being an idiot, I just assumed it was a similar belief.

GAT_00: acanuck: The idiot just described Israel

He just described why any religious person shouldn't be President.

I think fanatically religious person. There is no way an atheist or avowed agnostic could get elected in most western countries, and especially in this country. It would be nice to elect someone who realizes just how hypocritical it is for the POTUS to order an airstrike or SEAL raid while saying that they follow the 10 commandments. There isn't an asterisk next to the 'Thou shalt not kill' commandment. There also isn't one next to the 'Thou shalt not commit adultery' one either, which theoretically eliminates most presidential candidates in either party and many leaders in Europe and Asia. But it's only evil and morally wrong when someone in a party or country you dislike does it.

serpent_sky: I had no idea that was the case; what do Jews believe? I always assumed they did, what with the no tattoos to be buried in a Jewish cemetery thing. A co-worker said she was going to get a small tattoo of her son's name, but decided against it because she wanted to be buried with her husband and family. I figured that was somehow tied into an afterlife.

I'm certainly no expert, so I'll leave it to Jewish Farkers to answer your question more authoritatively (I'm not Jewish, but my wife is, so anything I can say is based only on what she's told me about it). But as I understand it, the not much at all is said in Jewish holy scriptures about the concept of an afterlife or heaven, and it isn't really a focus of the religion (unlike Christianity, in which it's a central theme and is offered as a reward for accepting Jebus). I think some Jews generally believe in some form of afterlife, many don't, but it's all pretty amorphous and either way it's not really any kind of focus of their religious tenets.

The tattoo thing comes from all the "don't do this, don't do that" stuff in Leviticus (the same part that says not to eat pork, or lobsters, or fruit bats, or whatever), which prohibits marking the body. The philosophy is that the human body is God's artistic creation, and it shouldn't be defaced with tats, piercings, etc.

Cyberluddite: The philosophy is that the human body is God's artistic creation, and it shouldn't be defaced with tats, piercings, etc.

So if God farks up and makes a deformed child who can easily be corrected with modern surgery....you know what? Nevermind.

Cyberluddite: serpent_sky: I had no idea that was the case; what do Jews believe? I always assumed they did, what with the no tattoos to be buried in a Jewish cemetery thing. A co-worker said she was going to get a small tattoo of her son's name, but decided against it because she wanted to be buried with her husband and family. I figured that was somehow tied into an afterlife.

I'm certainly no expert, so I'll leave it to Jewish Farkers to answer your question more authoritatively (I'm not Jewish, but my wife is, so anything I can say is based only on what she's told me about it). But as I understand it, the not much at all is said in Jewish holy scriptures about the concept of an afterlife or heaven, and it isn't really a focus of the religion (unlike Christianity, in which it's a central theme and is offered as a reward for accepting Jebus). I think some Jews generally believe in some form of afterlife, many don't, but it's all pretty amorphous and either way it's not really any kind of focus of their religious tenets.

I can answer this very simply as someone who grew up Orthodox.

Jews believe in an afterlife.

Simple.

serpent_sky: A co-worker said she was going to get a small tattoo of her son's name, but decided against it because she wanted to be buried with her husband and family. I figured that was somehow tied into an afterlife.

Actually, that's a myth, people with tattoos can be buried in Jewish cemetery's. But the Torah does prohibit such behavior. It's one of the 613 commandments passed down from God to man.

"You shall not make gashes in your flesh for the dead, or incise any marks on yourselves: I am the Lord"

I honestly wish people like Rick Santorum could take a step back and evaluate their own hypocrisy.

DarnoKonrad: Religious wackos of all stripes have no business anywhere near power.

Perhaps aside from the rare religious whacko that also turns serial killer, in which case the neighborhood of the electric chair would have its merits.

I can answer this very simply as someone who grew up Orthodox.

Jews believe in an afterlife.

Simple.

It doesn't matter you're all going to Hell anyway.

/But there's still hope. Jesus loves you. Come to him. Come to him. Worship him. DO IT OR YOU DIE!

DamnYankees: Jews believe in an afterlife.

True.

Simple.

Not even remotely.

::Begin TL;DR::

In the Torah, the oldest books of the Old Testament, the afterlife is only described vaguely by where we're sending the scapegoats, namely Sheol. The term is used in such a way that it was clear that the contemporaries of the Torah would know what they were referring to, but we really don't have such a clear picture anymore. Sheol is basically the land of the dead. You die, you're spirit goes in the ground to stay in Sheol.

After Sheol there's Gehennom, which is a version of "hell." That is to say, this is where the bad people go, rather than everyone who dies. This comes after the Torah, but still in the oldest Old Testament texts (Joshua). There's no messianic anything, no life after death, nothing. Death, and Sheol or Gehennom.

Later in the Old Testament we start getting the messianic messages, with Elijah, but even then the picture of the Messianic age in unclear, and the interpretations are divergent. One of the reasons for the Jewish requirement to be buried whole is that the Messiah will resurrect the dead, and that the Messianic age is on Earth, and you'll be needing your body again, so if it's dismembered you're kind of SOL. Meanwhile, other interpretations of Olam Ha'bah (The World to Come) are more akin to a Rapture scenario where the Israelites leave this world behind to sit by God's right hand for eternity.

It seems clear to me (but I am a slightly heretical Jew) that Judaism's view of the afterlife was strongly influenced by the afterlives of the surrounding religions, and the view changed over the centuries, to be reflected in the varying accounts over the course of the Old Testament. Jews got knocked around so much and borrowed from this and that, and never really tried to reconcile the differences that it's hard to put a coherent face on the Jewish afterlife.

Basic point is that "Jews don't believe in an afterlife" is a good rule of thumb because the entire religion (for all but a few sects) revolves entirely about your conduct in this life. Judaism thinks there is something after, but actively chooses to downplay speculation on what that might be.

::End TL;DR::

/Full disclaimer, I haven't studied Jewish theology past my Hebrew School days, but I'm still a practicing Jew.

nmrsnr: Judaism thinks there is something after

In other words, Jews believe in an afterlife.

You really wasted a ton of words in that post.

Oh, and I understand that, if asked, Santorum will deny that he wants America to be a theocracy, but still, I'm wondering how the cognitive dissonance of that statement doesn't give him an aneurysm.

So on the afterlife thing, which is pretty much the only use for religion, no one can get their story straight. Got it.

I see what you did, there, subby.

DamnYankees: nmrsnr: Judaism thinks there is something after

In other words, Jews believe in an afterlife.

You really wasted a ton of words in that post.

Only if you believe that explanation to be "simple," and then, maybe only on you.

It's like when the defense attorney says "so it's possible the fingerprint isn't a match to my client" and the forensic expert explains the methodology of how he ascertained to 90% certainty that the fingerprint is a positive ID, and the attorney goes "so it's possible?"

Yes. Congratulations. You're very smart.

My God! It's full of santorum!

nmrsnr: DamnYankees: nmrsnr: Judaism thinks there is something after

In other words, Jews believe in an afterlife.

You really wasted a ton of words in that post.

Only if you believe that explanation to be "simple," and then, maybe only on you.

It's like when the defense attorney says "so it's possible the fingerprint isn't a match to my client" and the forensic expert explains the methodology of how he ascertained to 90% certainty that the fingerprint is a positive ID, and the attorney goes "so it's possible?"

Yes. Congratulations. You're very smart.

The reality is nothing you said contradicts this point. Is Jewish theology fuzzy on what the afterlife is? Yes. Is there a coherent conception of what it consists of in Jewish scriptures? No. Is Jewish thought on this subject heavily influenced by other cultures? Yes.

None of this in any way contradicts the fact that Jews believe in an afterlife. They simply do, both as a matter of mainstream theology and the actual beliefs of religious Jews.

Unlike Christians who believe that their afterlife is supposed to just suck? I mean, I know that Catholics aren't as fired up for the afterlife as some Protestants are, but really?

Mr. Santorum, the only way to win this particular game, is not to play...

Folks, the whole Yahweh afterlife discussion is off topic.

Start another thread if you believe anyone but the two of you is interested*.


_{*does not apply to anti-Semites, KKK members, fundy GOP voters, whack-a-doodle Protestants.}

Wait, Mr. "Gays shouldn't get married and straights shouldn't be allowed to use contraception because God said so," is worried about a theocracy? Rich.

Right, because the Santorum clan is well adjusted.

So, I'm guessing his handlers haven't allowed him to look in a mirror for a long, long time.

hubiestubert: Unlike Christians who believe that their afterlife is supposed to just suck? I mean, I know that Catholics aren't as fired up for the afterlife as some Protestants are, but really?

Mr. Santorum, the only way to win this particular game, is not to play...

Hey, beats my culture's version of the afterlife, which is largely dependent on your descendents being diligent enough to send you offerings to keep you happy in the afterlife.

RexTalionis: hubiestubert: Unlike Christians who believe that their afterlife is supposed to just suck? I mean, I know that Catholics aren't as fired up for the afterlife as some Protestants are, but really?

Mr. Santorum, the only way to win this particular game, is not to play...

Hey, beats my culture's version of the afterlife, which is largely dependent on your descendents being diligent enough to send you offerings to keep you happy in the afterlife.

Hey, at least Buddhists have an ordered afterlife. Thank the Confucians for bringing bureaucracy to Hells. Serve your time, go back to the Wheel, try it all over again. It is at least a civilized sort of afterlife. Of course, the Tibetians, those crazy mofos came up with Hells that make even the Hell of Being Flayed Alive look sort of cheery, but to be fair, sit in those mountains long enough, and you'll come up with some messed up sh*t...

My mother's people, they mixed up all that Shinto with Buddhism, and that came up a weird hybrid...