It will continue to be an excellent market for Honda, Toyato, Hyundai, and BMW. The south will continue to provide an excellent environment to build the world's best cars as long as the CEOs live in Tokyo, Seoul, or Barvaria. The Big 3 and the Great Lakes region, with the exception of Honda's two plants in Ohio, not so much.

Look, if we drag the US economy far enough down into the pit, the rest of the world will invariably be dragged down with us, then we'll be poised for a comeback!

beta_plus: It will continue to be an excellent market for Honda, Toyato, Hyundai, and BMW. The south will continue to provide an excellent environment to build the world's best cars as long as the CEOs live in Tokyo, Seoul, or Barvaria. The Big 3 and the Great Lakes region, with the exception of Honda's two plants in Ohio, not so much.

jayhawk88: Look, if we drag the US economy far enough down into the pit, the rest of the world will invariably be dragged down with us, then we'll be poised for a comeback!

It's exactly that sort of incoherent nonsense and muddled thinking that allowed me to buy a ton of Ford stock back in '08 for less than $2.50 a share.

I should really thank people like you more often... if it weren't for your special brands of rampant gibberish, investing almost exclusively on common sense would be a lot harder.

Splinshints: beta_plus: It will continue to be an excellent market for Honda, Toyato, Hyundai, and BMW. The south will continue to provide an excellent environment to build the world's best cars as long as the CEOs live in Tokyo, Seoul, or Barvaria. The Big 3 and the Great Lakes region, with the exception of Honda's two plants in Ohio, not so much.

jayhawk88: Look, if we drag the US economy far enough down into the pit, the rest of the world will invariably be dragged down with us, then we'll be poised for a comeback!

It's exactly that sort of incoherent nonsense and muddled thinking that allowed me to buy a ton of Ford stock back in '08 for less than $2.50 a share.

I should really thank people like you more often... if it weren't for your special brands of rampant gibberish, investing almost exclusively on common sense would be a lot harder.

That was a smart investment. Ford is doing great - by moving all of its manufacturing to Mexico and design to Europe.

But keep trying, Mr. UAW apologist. When even German companies tell the UAW to go to the hell, the problem is the UAW, not the ebil rich.

beta_plus: Splinshints: beta_plus: It will continue to be an excellent market for Honda, Toyato, Hyundai, and BMW. The south will continue to provide an excellent environment to build the world's best cars as long as the CEOs live in Tokyo, Seoul, or Barvaria. The Big 3 and the Great Lakes region, with the exception of Honda's two plants in Ohio, not so much.

jayhawk88: Look, if we drag the US economy far enough down into the pit, the rest of the world will invariably be dragged down with us, then we'll be poised for a comeback!

It's exactly that sort of incoherent nonsense and muddled thinking that allowed me to buy a ton of Ford stock back in '08 for less than $2.50 a share.

I should really thank people like you more often... if it weren't for your special brands of rampant gibberish, investing almost exclusively on common sense would be a lot harder.

That was a smart investment. Ford is doing great - by moving all of its manufacturing to Mexico and design to Europe.

But keep trying, Mr. UAW apologist. When even German companies tell the UAW to go to the hell, the problem is the UAW, not the ebil rich.

Needs more Government Motors or at least a little Taxbongo. Also, I would have gone with union goons instead of UAW apologists. Everyone likes goons.

Rapmaster2000: Everyone likes goons

You say that now, but we'll see if you change your tune when they're outside your door at 3 A.M. looking to whip you with your own god-fearin', real-murican-made bootstraps.

Rapmaster2000: beta_plus: Splinshints: beta_plus: It will continue to be an excellent market for Honda, Toyato, Hyundai, and BMW. The south will continue to provide an excellent environment to build the world's best cars as long as the CEOs live in Tokyo, Seoul, or Barvaria. The Big 3 and the Great Lakes region, with the exception of Honda's two plants in Ohio, not so much.

jayhawk88: Look, if we drag the US economy far enough down into the pit, the rest of the world will invariably be dragged down with us, then we'll be poised for a comeback!

It's exactly that sort of incoherent nonsense and muddled thinking that allowed me to buy a ton of Ford stock back in '08 for less than $2.50 a share.

I should really thank people like you more often... if it weren't for your special brands of rampant gibberish, investing almost exclusively on common sense would be a lot harder.

That was a smart investment. Ford is doing great - by moving all of its manufacturing to Mexico and design to Europe.

But keep trying, Mr. UAW apologist. When even German companies tell the UAW to go to the hell, the problem is the UAW, not the ebil rich.

Needs more Government Motors or at least a little Taxbongo. Also, I would have gone with union goons instead of UAW apologists. Everyone likes goons.

True, and a little more nibbling on a foreign auto maker's cawk. I still give a 7/10, I almost really replied

beta_plus: Toyato,

Dan Quayle would be proud.

FlashHarry: angry_scientist: Taxbongo

i'm curious where that comes from. unless you're into tanning, your taxes have gone down under obama.

I believe good sir, that it should be attributed to the Master of Rap, circa 2000

angry_scientist: FlashHarry: angry_scientist: Taxbongo

i'm curious where that comes from. unless you're into tanning, your taxes have gone down under obama.

I believe good sir, that it should be attributed to the Master of Rap, circa 2000

Yeah, well maybe Obama hasn't raised taxes... but you just know he's thinking about it!

Rapmaster2000: Yeah, well maybe Obama hasn't raised taxes... but you just know he's thinking about it!

Well, duh. That's what keeps creating the uncertainty that keeps business from hiring and expanding which in turn keeps us from recovering properly from the recession.

Things he hasn't done or said but that he possibly could at some indeterminate point in the future.

Don't you people know anything? I have a GED in Economic Policy!

Thinking about buying a Ford as my next car. Gotta support America.

All I know is that my 2006 Scion xA (bought in August 2005) failed to start for the first time last Tuesday.

The original factory (made in Japan by Panasonic) battery finally died, after five and a half years. AAA gave me a new battery for $100 and it started right up.

Other than things like oil changes and tires and brakes and damage due to accidents, the only other repair I've ever needed on the car was replacing the stereo (warranty replacement).

FlashHarry: angry_scientist: Taxbongo

i'm curious where that comes from. unless you're into tanning, your taxes have gone down under obama.

Why raise taxes? We can just print as much money as we need.

Sure the end result will be the same: less money in the hands of individuals. But taxes can have names attached to them whereas inflation just sort of happens.

angry_scientist: Rapmaster2000: beta_plus: Splinshints: beta_plus: It will continue to be an excellent market for Honda, Toyato, Hyundai, and BMW. The south will continue to provide an excellent environment to build the world's best cars as long as the CEOs live in Tokyo, Seoul, or Barvaria. The Big 3 and the Great Lakes region, with the exception of Honda's two plants in Ohio, not so much.

jayhawk88: Look, if we drag the US economy far enough down into the pit, the rest of the world will invariably be dragged down with us, then we'll be poised for a comeback!

It's exactly that sort of incoherent nonsense and muddled thinking that allowed me to buy a ton of Ford stock back in '08 for less than $2.50 a share.

I should really thank people like you more often... if it weren't for your special brands of rampant gibberish, investing almost exclusively on common sense would be a lot harder.

That was a smart investment. Ford is doing great - by moving all of its manufacturing to Mexico and design to Europe.

But keep trying, Mr. UAW apologist. When even German companies tell the UAW to go to the hell, the problem is the UAW, not the ebil rich.

Needs more Government Motors or at least a little Taxbongo. Also, I would have gone with union goons instead of UAW apologists. Everyone likes goons.

True, and a little more nibbling on a foreign auto maker's cawk. I still give a 7/10, I almost really replied

I'm sorry about all the butt hurt that we caused you because we won't buy your lousy cars.

Magorn: Obama's decision to save the Big 3

Two.

Ford didn't need saving. They had a shiat ton of credit that they used to refocus their product line and reposition themselves properly to come out of the downturn with the right types of vehicles. GM and Chrysler had no cash, no credit, a ton of obligations and a line of vehicles that only made sense in a world full of braindead soccer moms and $1.50/gal gas. Ford had the edge and survived handily thanks to that foresight, GM and Chrysler were utterly doomed without a government handout because they painted themselves into a corner.

beta_plus: I'm sorry about all the butt hurt that we caused you because we won't buy your lousy cars.

Oh hell, you do realize by bringing the little pos econoboxes over here, it will change public perception to make an 'ordinary' Chevy Malibu with a 4 banger seem pretty nice, and a Malibu with a v6 and a few options downright decadent. Now, I do love some econoboxes when made for fun, with non-econo engines...

Now, I see 2 sides to this. 1- More cars to choose from= great! 2-The 'ordinary' Malibu now looks better than it did. That tells me manufacturers can't lower prices, and either the auto market can't hold previous levels of business because nobody can/will afford it anymore or CAFE is farking over their lineup.

Splinshints: Magorn: Obama's decision to save the Big 3

Two.

Ford didn't need saving. They had a shiat ton of credit that they used to refocus their product line and reposition themselves properly to come out of the downturn with the right types of vehicles. GM and Chrysler had no cash, no credit, a ton of obligations and a line of vehicles that only made sense in a world full of braindead soccer moms and $1.50/gal gas. Ford had the edge and survived handily thanks to that foresight, GM and Chrysler were utterly doomed without a government handout because they painted themselves into a corner.

At best....Ford is still only "the thinnest kid at fat camp"...I nice distinction to have, but they still have a long way to go to catch up to many of the foreign car makers.

Are they the best of the Big 3? Yeah...But the Big 3 still lag behind so many other companies in quality and reliability.

angry_scientist: beta_plus: I'm sorry about all the butt hurt that we caused you because we won't buy your lousy cars.

Oh hell, you do realize by bringing the little pos econoboxes over here, it will change public perception to make an 'ordinary' Chevy Malibu with a 4 banger seem pretty nice, and a Malibu with a v6 and a few options downright decadent. Now, I do love some econoboxes when made for fun, with non-econo engines...

Now, I see 2 sides to this. 1- More cars to choose from= great! 2-The 'ordinary' Malibu now looks better than it did. That tells me manufacturers can't lower prices, and either the auto market can't hold previous levels of business because nobody can/will afford it anymore or CAFE is farking over their lineup.

The Chevy Malibu??? That's the best response you have. Seriously?



This may come as a shock to you, most of us just use cars to get to and from work and to shop. We have little interest in paying for "performance" that's only use is violating the speed limit and to drive recklessly while violating traffic laws. We care about two things:

1) Total overall cost of the car (that includes maintenance, insurance, and mileage)

2) Will it turn on when I put the keys in the ignition (assuming there is gas in the tank and it has gotten regularly scheduled maintenance)

What world do you live in? Some time warp where American Graffiti never ended?

beta_plus: Splinshints: beta_plus: It will continue to be an excellent market for Honda, Toyato, Hyundai, and BMW. The south will continue to provide an excellent environment to build the world's best cars as long as the CEOs live in Tokyo, Seoul, or Barvaria. The Big 3 and the Great Lakes region, with the exception of Honda's two plants in Ohio, not so much.

jayhawk88: Look, if we drag the US economy far enough down into the pit, the rest of the world will invariably be dragged down with us, then we'll be poised for a comeback!

It's exactly that sort of incoherent nonsense and muddled thinking that allowed me to buy a ton of Ford stock back in '08 for less than $2.50 a share.

I should really thank people like you more often... if it weren't for your special brands of rampant gibberish, investing almost exclusively on common sense would be a lot harder.

That was a smart investment. Ford is doing great - by moving all of its manufacturing to Mexico and design to Europe.

But keep trying, Mr. UAW apologist. When even German companies tell the UAW to go to the hell, the problem is the UAW, not the ebil rich.

The last thing I'd do is invest in a unionized American automaker, no matter how good a deal it looks like. The federal government has demonstrated that it has no compunctions about ignoring the law and handing a car company over to whoever it feels like, existing holders of stock and debt be damned. I'd rather invest in places where there are fewer incentives for the feds to simply take my money and give it to someone else.

beta_plus: angry_scientist: beta_plus: I'm sorry about all the butt hurt that we caused you because we won't buy your lousy cars.

Oh hell, you do realize by bringing the little pos econoboxes over here, it will change public perception to make an 'ordinary' Chevy Malibu with a 4 banger seem pretty nice, and a Malibu with a v6 and a few options downright decadent. Now, I do love some econoboxes when made for fun, with non-econo engines...

Now, I see 2 sides to this. 1- More cars to choose from= great! 2-The 'ordinary' Malibu now looks better than it did. That tells me manufacturers can't lower prices, and either the auto market can't hold previous levels of business because nobody can/will afford it anymore or CAFE is farking over their lineup.

The Chevy Malibu??? That's the best response you have. Seriously?

[www.imageleech.net image 560x432]

This may come as a shock to you, most of us just use cars to get to and from work and to shop. We have little interest in paying for "performance" that's only use is violating the speed limit and to drive recklessly while violating traffic laws. We care about two things:

1) Total overall cost of the car (that includes maintenance, insurance, and mileage)

2) Will it turn on when I put the keys in the ignition (assuming there is gas in the tank and it has gotten regularly scheduled maintenance)

What world do you live in? Some time warp where American Graffiti never ended?

Total overall cost really doesn't work as well in your favor as you think it does. What makes most Japanese makes seem so reliable is not because their parts are made with some sort of engineering magic that makes them infinity times better than their American counterparts, it's that in their service regimen they often replace parts before they ever break. A very good business model, mind you, but it also means that there really isn't much of a total cost of ownership difference between them at all. American automakers and dealerships just more or less assume that you are going to do most of your own maintenance, when in reality a lot of people don't. And then they whine when their car breaks, which is less likely to happen with a Japanese car because the dealer is more likely to take care of you.

The same line of thinking goes for European cars vs Japanese and American, although for many of them their parts can actually be more expensive depending on the car and where on the globe you're located, but the reverse is true for Japanese and American parts in Europe.

Really, YOU have a greater effect on your car's longevity than the automaker does. For example, Chrysler, a company that has had quite a few questionable products in its time, has a fan website called Allpar. On this site, they have a loooooong list of cars, pretty much every Mopar imaginable, in their "200,000 Mile Club". The only thing most list entrants have in common is that they say that they took good care of their car, and their car took good care of them.

mrtoadswildride: At best....Ford is still only "the thinnest kid at fat camp"...I nice distinction to have, but they still have a long way to go to catch up to many of the foreign car makers.

Are they the best of the Big 3? Yeah...But the Big 3 still lag behind so many other companies in quality and reliability.

Yea, I don't mean to say I think they're in great shape, although they're still getting better, just pointing out that they didn't need the bailout.

kmmontandon: Except GM and Chrysler would have taken Ford down with them, due to commonality of parts suppliers.

Speculation at best. And speculation that relies on the utterly absurd notion that a GM or Chrysler bankruptcy would mean the companies just suddenly ceased to exist.

"...In 2010, Germany turned out 5.5 million cars, more than twice the 2.7 million produced in the U.S. that year.
They did it while paying their workers an average $67.14 hourly wage including benefits, twice the $33.77 per hour auto workers in the U.S. got.

And Germany's "Big Three" - Volkswagen, Daimler and BMW - still managed to rake in massive profits.

Don't chalk it up to German engineering: an article from e-journal Remapping Debate says it has more to do with the work environment and attitude, says Forbes. "The salient difference is that, in Germany, the automakers operate within an environment that precludes a race to the bottom; in the U.S., they operate within an environment that encourages such a race," said author Kevin C. Brown.

The problem isn't just the UAW.

CmndrFish: On this site, they have a loooooong list of cars, pretty much every Mopar imaginable, in their "200,000 Mile Club". The only thing most list entrants have in common is that they say that they took good care of their car, and their car took good care of them.
Absolutely true, the automotive fleet, in general terms, is so much better than the product put out in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s, that its almost hard to compare...

That doesn't fit a lot of folks angry, everything-was-better-when-my-penis-was-stiff-and-my-back-wasn't worldview, but it's still reality..

// The modern, sub-30k sedan, is rapidly becoming an undifferentiated commodity, a virtual toaster on 4 wheels, find something else to anchor your ego/identity...

The domestics had a longer way to go, and chysler arguably the most, but they've pretty much got there, for "flagship" sedans, the fusion and the malibu, hang with, or actually beat their jap counterparts..

sgilman: beta_plus: It will continue to be an excellent market for Honda, Toyato, Hyundai, and BMW. The south will continue to provide an excellent environment to build the world's best cars as long as the CEOs live in Tokyo, Seoul, or Barvaria. The Big 3 and the Great Lakes region, with the exception of Honda's two plants in Ohio, not so much.

Yes, unions and high wages are murder for car companies. That's why German automakers are able to produce twice as many cars, pay their workers double what Detroit workers make and still turn a healthy profit (new window)

part of what always irks me about union vs non union arguments in these threads:

the unions in the US and the unions in germany do not have to do the same things.

in germany, the insurance and pensions are covered by the state (ie, taxpayers) much more than the US govt covers its citizens. in the US, the employers cover these costs. its not an apples to apples comparison. yes, the UAW seems expensive and non competitive by european standards, because they are. Why? Because german workers are guaranteed benefits which are footed by the German govt, not the union. If the UAW didnt have to guarantee the health care of its retired workers and their spouses the way the german unions dont, theyd be a lot more compteitive.

for example: my ex wife's grandfather was a GM worker in new jersey back in the 70s when he died. his wife got full amazing health care benefits until she died...in 2009. 30 years this woman was on GM's health care and pension system... after her husband stopped working there. There are probably thousands of similar examples, which is going to be a serious burden on the company's balance sheet. Im not advocating that granny should be on the street or anything, but pointing out: these costs would not be solely carried by the union in germany. this "burden" of caring for this retired woman would be spread across the whole country's tax base, not solely on the shoulders of a single company's union.

PDid: Thinking about buying a Ford as my next car. Gotta support America.

You'll be supporting not only America, but American auto mechanics, too.

/found on road dead: it's not just a joke.

CmndrFish: Total overall cost really doesn't work as well in your favor as you think it does. What makes most Japanese makes seem so reliable is not because their parts are made with some sort of engineering magic that makes them infinity times better than their American counterparts, it's that in their service regimen they often replace parts before they ever break. A very good business model, mind you, but it also means that there really isn't much of a total cost of ownership difference between them at all. American automakers and dealerships just more or less ...

You obviously don't read Consumer Reports.

US car companies stable and growing? The republicans were right again!

jjorsett: The last thing I'd do is invest in a unionized American automaker, no matter how good a deal it looks like. The federal government has demonstrated that it has no compunctions about ignoring the law and handing a car company over to whoever it feels like, existing holders of stock and debt be damned. I'd rather invest in places where there are fewer incentives for the feds to simply take my money and give it to someone else.

The butthurt is strong with this one.

What money and law? GM and Chrysler went bankrupt. The shareholders got wiped out, which is what's supposed to happen.

DrPainMD: CmndrFish: Total overall cost really doesn't work as well in your favor as you think it does. What makes most Japanese makes seem so reliable is not because their parts are made with some sort of engineering magic that makes them infinity times better than their American counterparts, it's that in their service regimen they often replace parts before they ever break. A very good business model, mind you, but it also means that there really isn't much of a total cost of ownership difference between them at all. American automakers and dealerships just more or less ...

You obviously don't read Consumer Reports.

CR is fine if you want to know how small and midsized cars compare for people who only want very basic tasks from them. And once in a blue moon they do a good job of stumbling on serious issues. But if you're shopping for something with different priorities than grocery-grabbing and taking your kids to soccer practice, it's mostly useless.

beta_plus: This may come as a shock to you, most of us just use cars to get to and from work and to shop. We have little interest in paying for "performance" that's only use is violating the speed limit and to drive recklessly while violating traffic laws. We care about two things:

1) Total overall cost of the car (that includes maintenance, insurance, and mileage)

2) Will it turn on when I put the keys in the ignition (assuming there is gas in the tank and it has gotten regularly scheduled maintenance)

What world do you live in? Some time warp where American Graffiti never ended?

Seriously, nobody shows off with their cars anymore. We have Apple products now.

RickyWilliams'sBong: DrPainMD: CmndrFish: Total overall cost really doesn't work as well in your favor as you think it does. What makes most Japanese makes seem so reliable is not because their parts are made with some sort of engineering magic that makes them infinity times better than their American counterparts, it's that in their service regimen they often replace parts before they ever break. A very good business model, mind you, but it also means that there really isn't much of a total cost of ownership difference between them at all. American automakers and dealerships just more or less ...

You obviously don't read Consumer Reports.

CR is fine if you want to know how small and midsized cars compare for people who only want very basic tasks from them. And once in a blue moon they do a good job of stumbling on serious issues. But if you're shopping for something with different priorities than grocery-grabbing and taking your kids to soccer practice, it's mostly useless.

CR bases its ratings on the largest poll of car owners in the world (several hundred thousand people respond to their polls). Few, if any, American cars are as reliable as most Hondas and Toyotas, and the gap for most is huge. If reliability isn't one of your requirements and you don't mind your car being in the shop every other day, then yeah, CR won't do you much good.

DrPainMD: RickyWilliams'sBong: DrPainMD: CmndrFish: Total overall cost really doesn't work as well in your favor as you think it does. What makes most Japanese makes seem so reliable is not because their parts are made with some sort of engineering magic that makes them infinity times better than their American counterparts, it's that in their service regimen they often replace parts before they ever break. A very good business model, mind you, but it also means that there really isn't much of a total cost of ownership difference between them at all. American automakers and dealerships just more or less ...

You obviously don't read Consumer Reports.

CR is fine if you want to know how small and midsized cars compare for people who only want very basic tasks from them. And once in a blue moon they do a good job of stumbling on serious issues. But if you're shopping for something with different priorities than grocery-grabbing and taking your kids to soccer practice, it's mostly useless.

CR bases its ratings on the largest poll of car owners in the world (several hundred thousand people respond to their polls). Few, if any, American cars are as reliable as most Hondas and Toyotas, and the gap for most is huge. If reliability isn't one of your requirements and you don't mind your car being in the shop every other day, then yeah, CR won't do you much good.

Two things: The poll is subject to self-selection bias. If you've ever read a Zogby Interactive poll of a presidential campaign, you know what a disaster that can be.

Second, while you're right that Honda and Toyota do better, the differences in reliability -- even if you accept CR as a good measure of it -- are generally quite small. That's why companies can jump or fall many spots on the survey year-to-year. It's why Jeep can go from one of the worst brands to one of the better ones in one year despite simply changing one engine out on one model, and why Ford can go from #2 to terrible having only changed some the stereo and a tranny on a couple small models.

With those things in mind, reliability isn't the sole measure on which people buy cars.

I was going to say "Let the union hating begin" but I see I am too late.