California thinks illegal kids are more important than legal citizens.

California doesnt have money and the schools are having budget cuts. Rather than giving financial aid they should be pushing them out the door or at least charging considerably more.

This will result in higher tuitions across the board to pay for the entitlements to illegals. The days of near-free education in cali are over and will soon catch up to the rest of the county. I love how everyone supports these feel good measures without a thought as to how they will be paid for.

Bob16: The illegal immigrant apologists have been living off of phony compassion.

Even though those most effected by the negative effects of illegal immigration are our poorest, mostly minority, citizens many people insist that the only reason you could possibly be against illegal immigration is because of racism.

I have a compromise: those here illegally can attend college and get loans without harrassment, but they have to pay out-of-state tuition fees.

/Hey, California is broke. The colleges and universities have to get money from somewhere.

Eddie Adams from Torrance: They also pay payroll and income taxes

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Here's a phrase for you to look up.

"Off the books".

In all seriousness:

Why should we be handing out aid to people who don't pay taxes to begin with?

That's really all it boils down to.

Now bring on the:

-if they were citizens then they could pay taxes
-what about the 1%ers who don't pay taxes
-you must hate brown people
-bushs fault
-Obama did it
-socialism
-facism

Snarfangel: I have a compromise: those here illegally can attend college and get loans without harrassment, but they have to pay out-of-state tuition fees.

/Hey, California is broke. The colleges and universities have to get money from somewhere.

Your idea is already done by the 100's of thousands of International Students who are LEGALLY here in America. They pay the full ride...however...they can qualify for scholarships and internships....even work as work-study (which is usually funded by US tax dollars)

What the Illegal Alien Groups and the Hispanic Hate Groups want is American tax dollars for people who BROKE THE LAW to get here. They want Special Treatment that LEGAL INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS cannot get

Should students who committed a crime (any here Illegally is breaking the law) get benefits over someone who came here legally

DREAM Act Illegal Alien Amnesty is an absolute travesty. And it is an absolute insult to those International Students who came here and remain here LEGALLY

Not surprised that a state basically run by La Raza (THE RACE) and other Hispanic Hate Groups would have slight opposition from Dream Act Amnesty.

Sad is that many GOP support Illegal Alien Amnesty. And, there are a lot of stupid GOP, too. When you have a GOP presidential candidate like Rick Perry giving Illegal Aliens Dream Act Amnesty in Texas....and GOPers still supporting him...you pretty much have stupid dumbfarks in both parties.

I could barely pay for my college tuition...why should I pay the tuition of Criminal Illegal Aliens? (Anyone who pays Federal taxes subsidizes CAL Dream Act Amnesty...as all colleges and universities get some sort of Federal money)

Fart_Machine: DrewCurtisJr: Fart_Machine: Fixed for accuracy. Most immigrants were poor regardless of where they came from.

Then, as now, immigrants from different regions had different socioeconomic characteristics.

Then immigration policy would have been dictated by economic characteristics rather than relying on ethnicity. The fact was that the majority of the population at that time had come from poor northern European immigrants (at least according to the census data at that time). Southern Europeans were the "other" at that time (people were distrustful of Catholics and Jews, not to mention Asians in general) and were considered "undesirable".

why do you want to let so many people in when you know they will drive down wages for the poor and allow big business to profit from lower labor costs?

you understand these foreign owrkers have a big advantage vis a vis our working class because even the pitiful wages our megacorps offer them are attractive.

why do you fight for something that hurts this country and its most vulnerable citizens the very hardest?

more and more of the small slice of low skill jobs available to our low skilled Americans will go the way of the dodo as globalization and automation accelerates. their job prospects will never increase in the aggregate going forward. they will never have .com industry event where a whole new class of jobs for them is created.

do you hurt working class americans and do the work of the capitalists because *tradition*? because prior to 1920 we did things this way. f*cking over the poor for tradition, how *conservative* of you. do you have any other argument?

Eddie Adams from Torrance: Bob16: Eddie Adams from Torrance: They also pay payroll and income taxes

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Here's a phrase for you to look up.

"Off the books".

Do you think that businesses that pay workers under the table only employ illegals?

Unless you're running a mostly cash business, you're an idiot if you pay your employees off the books.
The vast majority of illegals are working using falsified documentation and are having taxes withheld all year. Legal workers who are earning the same paycheck can file and have all or most of the income tax refunded... illegals can't.

And the costs associated with SS, Credit Fraud, identity theft? Oh yes, and in many locales the government looks away as they apply for Food Stamps and other benefits. Here's where you link to the study showing immigrants are a net benefit, then I point out I never argued about immigrants but illegal immigrants.

Bob16: randomjsa: SoCalSurfer: Why should we be handing out aid to people who don't pay taxes to begin with?

So they can vote for Democrats.

That's all it's ever about.
______________________________________

God you're an idiot.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/18/AR200 6 061800613.html

clip - The Bush administration, which is vowing to crack down on U.S. companies that hire illegal workers, virtually abandoned such employer sanctions before it began pushing to overhaul U.S. immigration laws last year, government statistics show.

Arizona was sued in Federal Court to stop their crack down on employers. They finally won last year. Maybe it would help if the DoJ didn't sue states who actually went after employers?

Eddie Adams from Torrance: coco ebert: They do pay taxes. Anyone who spends time in the U.S. pays taxes simply through consumption.

They also pay payroll and income taxes.. and almost universally at a higher rate than citizens and legal immigrants.

Know how I know you've never known an illegal immigrant? They often have max allowances and pay very little in taxes. Other times they have cash provided under the table. Do some pay taxes? Yes, but often at the expense of social security fraud in using other people's SS numbers. WHen they do this, they also take out loans and credit on that SS. I know 3 people who have found other CCs to Californians with their SS numbers, it's a nightmare to remove.

Freschel: Saint Ronny Raygun, the patron saint of trickle down economics, had given amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants.

With the promise of greater enforcement, before that is was against the law to hire an illegal immigrant. Everyone got legal status but the enforcement never happened. We should learn from the past and insist on demonstrated long term enforcement first, including cooperation from state and local authorities and sanctions against businesses.

This is just a reminder.

Saint Ronny Raygun, the patron saint of trickle down economics, had given amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants.

Guidette Frankentits: Fart_Machine: The amount of illegals has dropped ever since the economy tanked. The lower end of the job market hasn't been getting any better.

Exactly, and I can prove your claim with law in Alabama. No more illegals to pick the fruit, but the farmers "can't afford" to hire legal workers to pick the fruit. Where is the money to afford legal workers? Had to go somewhere. It's not in the hands of the illegals and not in the hands of the middle class.

they have a visa program and have had it for like 40 years to get Mexicans over to pick that fruit. I don;t even like the visa program really, and I really don't like the h1b visa program. if you can't do it with American labor you better figure how to do it with robots if I had my way. we shouldn't be exploiting people like that. neither should we be screwing over the American lower class either. if Americans demand 30 bucks an hour, pay them, or go out of business.

Fart_Machine: relcec: you miss the point. the policy that was in place from 1920 to 1965 that limited immigration from those countries that were the previous *donor* nations was vitally important to wages support in america because people fro those countries no longer wanted to come to this country in mass. who gives a f*ck if it was racist to people who were owed nothing from nobody?

Well obviously because those nasty Catholics and Jews would have just sponged off the system and they might pollute the breeding stock of our great nation.

why immigration declined was there was no longer a potato blight every other year. germany was no longer such a shiat hole. neither was italy so terrible. england wasn't half bad. so america wasn't as attractive to europeans, and because congress had loocked in the setup where imigrants had to be apportioned by the makeup of this country, immigration declined substantially.

That's generally why people immigrate in the first place; because they're poor and want a better life. Where they come from is irrelevant except to those who believe certain ethnic types are inferior to others, which is why the National Origins Act came into being.

but that is good for the people already here in a modern society. how can this simple concept be for you too understand? we don't need the 40 million extra people we got since 1980 almost exclusively by immigration, certainly not the vast majority of the unskilled workers that just drive down the wages of our underclass. does the janitorial company really need more profits made because he can now lower wages because their are an extra million people from the third world offering to sweep floors in the middle of the night for dirt cheap? or does it make more sense for him to continue to pay the higher wages to the american underclass that was doing it higher wages before the arrival of the newest waves of immigrants? if we care about workers, we want to see the labor supple contract, so wages rise. this is impossible if we continue to take in more legal immigrants in one year than the rest of the world combined does, never-mind your policies designed to support illegal immigration. I don;t care what f*Cking color they are or what language they speak. I care that they increase the labor supply.
why can't you understand this simple concept?

Fart_Machine: relcec: it actually wasn't our policy from 1920 to 1965, when everyone in america saw prodigious gains in wages over the long term.

There isn't a big enough facepalm for this. You're seriously saying that the majority of immigrants who came to this country prior to 1920 were wealthy?

no, I'm saying the policy wasn't give me whoever you got. it was give me whoever you got in proportion to the national origins already in the united states. this why immigration began to decline dramatically. Europe began to catch up. not many wanted to come over and compete for jobs with americans. wages rose.

then the democrats decided it was unfair to people we owe no allegiance to. it made it fair to the world, and unfair to the American working class. 50 million low skilled imported workers later and we can safely say the 1965 immigration and nationalization act was the most devastating piece of legislation for the working class and the empowering piece of legislation for the 1%s ever promulgated in this country.


let's see what happens to the wages of men when democrats let the doors swing and dozns of millions of people in to compete for their jobs FOR NO F*CKING REASON, shall we.


would you like to see more of the GDP growth go to the workers? tighten up the labor supply. it is seriously as simple as that. can you remember the .com boom? back then walmart was handing out $1000 to highs school drop outs if they would sing up for six months, people with educations could do significantly better. that was because the labor market was tight.

Link (new window)

Fart_Machine: DrewCurtisJr: So what exactly was our policy for 200 years then?

Fart_Machine: I stated we had a policy of letting in poor immigrants.

DrewCurtisJr: And how does this relate you what you replied to in my post?

What you posted didn't have anything to do with not taking in millions of the poorest of the poor from other countries. It simply restricted it mainly to taking in the poorest of the poor from northern European countries based on the principles of ethnic bigotry.

you miss the point. the policy that was in place from 1920 to 1965 that limited immigration from those countries that were the previous *donor* nations was vitally important to wages support in america because people fro those countries no longer wanted to come to this country in mass. who gives a f*ck if it was racist to people who were owed nothing from nobody?

why immigration declined was there was no longer a potato blight every other year. germany was no longer such a shiat hole. neither was italy so terrible. england wasn't half bad. so america wasn't as attractive to europeans, and because congress had loocked in the setup where imigrants had to be apportioned by the makeup of this country, immigration declined substantially.

wage increases were supported because there was increased competition for workers as the economy grew. (not what we see today, where the economy grow by 200k jobs but unemployment doesn't move, because immigration demands so many more new jobs we must create for these people, who always take the lowest offer.)
so while everything is going swimmingly in the post war boom the 1965 democratic congress comes along and say every country in the world can send in x many people without regard to how many they sent before. suddenly there are 3 billion people on the planet whom the immigration policies of the united states looks good. then once they new immigrants are american citizens the family reunification preference that the rest of our immigration system is based on lets in even more of that specific clan that was just naturalized.

so the immigration policy is based on some liberal fantasy that we have enough jobs and enough welfare for the low skilled workers of the world. it is insane.

our policies should be based on supporting wages earners in the united states. period. end of sentence.

I don't care if the two dozen or so people we should be letting in each year are mexican, or nigerian, or chinese, or swedish. I'll let you decided. but his has to end. this is insanity.
you are creating permanent feudal class here, and it has to stop.

Fart_Machine: DrewCurtisJr: That is the Statue of Liberty not the Statue of Immigration. And that was a poem not policy.

It's been our policy for 200 years. Or do you believe the majority of immigrants to this country were wealthy folks?

nope.
it actually wasn't our policy from 1920 to 1965, when everyone in america saw prodigious gains in wages over the long term. but in 1965 the democrats opened Americas doors to the worlds low skilled workers, and low and behold since about 1970 (when the artificial demand created by the war in demand began to wane) wages for working have not grown (there have been some gains for women as misogynistic practices go by the wayside). so thanks libs, thanks for dumping 45 million ectra people into the labor market. it's just what the 1%s wanted. a labor glut.

coco ebert: They do pay taxes. Anyone who spends time in the U.S. pays taxes simply through consumption.

Wow. You went Weapons Grade Stupid in no time at all, Sparky.

/congrats!

Dear California,

You're too broke to push costly social agendas that benefit one foreign ethnicity over the collective.

Love,

Reality

P.S. fark you and your Prop 8 too.

Illegal immigrants are the latest scapegoats.

The rich in America stay in power by playing the poor against the poor.

Hey, poor Americans, it's because of illegal immigrants that your life sucks, not because of the rich who are shipping jobs to other countries to increase their profits.

DrewCurtisJr: Why do you hate our poor? Or maybe hate is too strong a word, maybe you just don't care one way or the other.

The illegal immigrant apologists have been living off of phony compassion. I've heard many of them say "we'll if you can be replaced by an unskilled illegal immigrant you're pretty lame" which is very similar to the kind of callous attitude the "hate the poor" republicans have towards the the least fortunate americans.

LadySusan: Many illegal immigrants pay taxes of all kinds. They certainly pay relevant sales taxes, many of them have fake papers and pay the normal income and employment taxes that we wage earners do. Many own property and pay property tax. Of course, many are part of a fully underground economy too.

Some of what is driving the Dream Act is that many of these kids were brought here as very young children or as babies. The US is all they've every known. Some of them don't even know they are illegal until they turn 16 and mom and dad tell them they can't get a legal driver's license. They may not speak any language other than English.

I'll just say I'm more than happy to pay tax dollars to support education and skilled job training for all and would allow a path to citizenship of some kind certainly for these kids and most likely for others.

Has anyone noted that the guy who tried to do the signature gathering was busted for trying to carry a gun on an airplane (new window)? His story was that he's carrying it for protection and hid it in his briefcase so his wife wouldn't find out and then forgot about it. Yes, that's really his cunning plan. I'd take his citizenship away for major derp and take most any other illegal in his place.

Okay then you can pay for them

WhackingDay: You want America to continue leading the world, you better figure out how to start funding education better.

We can start by not taking in millions of the poorest of the poor from other countries, and then have to spend enormous amounts of money to educate their children.

Frank N Stein: I predict accusations of racism in this thread

In 3.... 2... 1....

And a dismissive (or at best a lip service ) attitude for the americans displaced by illegal scab labor ( who are often poor ) .

coco ebert: They do pay taxes. Anyone who spends time in the U.S. pays taxes simply through consumption.

Oh good I consume stuff too, so I shouldnt have to pay property or income tax either then? Awesome!

Super Chronic: No financial aid for kids unless their mamas and papas are citizens?

Keyword: pay taxes like the rest of us thus contributing to the system. So yes