Truly, he has a dizzying intellect.

And therefore the state of Israel is guilty of several different flavors of crimes against humanity and human rights violations against their citizenry.

Thanks for clearing that up, Ricky. Not the outcome you wanted, I know, but them's the breaks.

Hint: the Rapture isn't going to happen even if you kick all the Arabs out.

When does his secret service protection start? Telling at least 2.4 million people that they basically don't exist is not a smart move.

"So that means," Santorum continued, "that Jebus is going to come back any day now, as clearly prophesied in Revelations, right?" While looking up to the sky and holding his thumb to his ear and pinkie to his mouth in the common "telephone" pantomime gesture, Santorum then silently mouthed the words "Call me."

So Israel is firing missiles at their own people? Yeah, that's so much better. A war crime is a war crime, and Israel is guilty of quite a few.

Palestine is one of those "nations" that really doesn't have a sovereign past.

At almost any point on the calendar you care to dredge up, they've been under SOMEONE'S thumb. Alexander, the Romans, The Ottomans, now the Jews. But they keep popping up like mint. That tenacity alone is why they should be respected as a people when, by rights they should long ago been sublimated into another culture.

At the same time, they are real dicks with the rockets and stuff. Launching unguided explosives randomly into the air towards cities is a good way to get me off of your side. As much as I admire their fighting spirit, they're just chock-ablock with terrorists.

Israel's not nice, but the terrorists are not nicer. That's why I stay outta debates about that area. Israel's almost morally indefensible, except that we'd do exactly the same things in their shoes. Judging by Iraq, probably worse.

This thread does not have enough negative votes.

SilentStrider: This thread does not have enough negative votes.

I want to see it go live. Israel thrives on the nonsense middle-ground un-state in which they currently exist. Palestine as a separate state or wholly-owned territory runs counter to their interests. That's a fact that needs to stay in the white-hot antisepsis of daylight.

Amos Quito: Wow, Santorum is really pining for the AIPAC Fan Club vote. You just never know when 2% could put you over the top.

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 175x179]

But wait, there's more!

FTA: "Although Mr. Santorum's argument was clearly offered in strong support of the rights of Israeli settlers, it is interesting that his extreme stance, if it ever became official United States policy, could actually undermine Israel's stated goal of remaining "a Jewish and democratic state."

So if Santorum's fantasy cum US policy, Israel would stop being Jewish?

Or would it stop being democratic?

Actually if Ricks fantasy came true you could get BOTH for one low price!

/But ya gotta call now!

Well, I'm getting more and more to the point where I believe a one state solution is the only actually workable option. Which means no more Jewish state. There's just too little land for a two state solution to ever really work security wise, and with Israel's massive population expansion and housing crunch, moving people out of the settlements is damn near impossible, even leaving the politics and religious nuttery out of it.

Basically, the guide I've found useful is that Israel can have two out of three:
One State
Jewish
Democratic.

And now, with the two state bit looking like less and less of an alternative, that leads to killing Jewish, or killing democratic. I'd vote for nixing the Jewish aspect, and perhaps putting up some provision where the ultra orthodox nuts can live in their own little autonomous collectives where they can have Jewish law to a ridiculous extent, spit on women who show skin, blah de blah. Under the provision that they get no say in how the rest of the country is run while living inside one. And, if anybody raised inside wants out (like, say, a female) Israel finds them housing and gives 'em a subsidy for a period until they can find a job.

miss diminutive: /was tempted to nuke from orbit

I like killer robots. Or something similar to Logan's Run: you can visit, but you can't live there. Stay more than 30 days, you're hunted for sport. It'd give everyone a chance to visit the various religious and historical sites and put the perpetual MINE! argument to rest.

themindiswatching: Hint: the Rapture isn't going to happen even if you kick all the Arabs out.

He's Catholic. Catholics (afaik, being one and all) don't believe in the Rapture.

Amos Quito: Are you crazy? They'll never go for it!

Of course I'm crazy, and of course they'll never go for it. But it ain't like they're having any new ideas over there, sometimes you need to throw crazy stuff out and see what it leads to.

Amos Quito: Kidding aside, were the West Bank to be incorporated into Israel and the Pallies given voting rights and full citizenship, Israel as we know it would cease to exist.

If by "as we know it", you mean "as an apartheid state", then yes. If you mean POOF, NO MORE ISRAEL, then highly unlikely.

Amos Quito: cptjeff: Basically, the guide I've found useful is that Israel can have two out of three:
One State
Jewish
Democratic.

Kidding aside, were the West Bank to be incorporated into Israel and the Pallies given voting rights and full citizenship, Israel as we know it would cease to exist.

There are quite a few people who aren't terribly keen on that idea.

That's the point. Israel as we know it is a close to theocratic state allowed to commit war crimes with near impunity. I don't really feel Israel as we know it is particularly worth protecting. In fact, change the phrase "Jewish State" to "Islamic State" and I'm pretty sure Bush would have slapped it on the axis of evil and it would be a regular bombing target for the US.

Amos Quito: cptjeff: Amos Quito: Are you crazy? They'll never go for it!

Of course I'm crazy, and of course they'll never go for it. But it ain't like they're having any new ideas over there, sometimes you need to throw crazy stuff out and see what it leads to.


Interesting, but I think many hard-liners feel that to lose the Jewish majority and Jewish Nationality would be tantamount to genocide.

Seriously.

Assimilation is not on the table.

I know that's how they feel, and I know that it's not on the table. But the hard liners are extremists and should be called out as such, and it should be on the table.

As for 'tantamount to genocide', one would think that a people that had already been through a genocide would sling that word around a little more carefully. I know the hard liners feel that way, and I also feel like the hard liners can go straight to hell. If you're going to compare giving equal rights to the people you're currently oppressing to the holocaust, I don't particularly care what you think.

Again, I hold absolutely no illusion that this is going to happen. But, if we really wanted to, the US could make this happen. Apart from the US, Israel has very little support. If the US decided (which is another matter entirely, and it's why if this thread goes green I will be labeled as an anti-semetic somewhere to the right of Hitler) to force Israel to shape up and either assimilate, withdraw from settlements, or what have you, we could do it. The hard liners in Israel would be dragged into it kicking and screaming, but they'd be forced to. Because the alternative would be full out war, which they would probably lose. Without us, Israel is besieged. It's now made an enemy of Turkey, the one real friend they still had left in the arab world. They're very, very lonely right now, and it's their own damn fault.

The political realities in the US and in Israel, however, means that in either country, what I'm saying isn't even considered a valid point of view, much less a realistic proposal. Which is why we're going to have another 60 years of this shiat.

Amos Quito: It would be like a return to diaspora.



You say that like it's something I should care about. Does every ethnic/religious minority get its own country now? Can we give half of Hungary to the Roma? Never mind that you'd be forcefully evicting people with thousands of years of history in that spot, you'd be giving a historically oppressed minority (who were also targeted by Hitler, incidentally) a homeland. This is all well and just, right?

And look at the shining examples of civilization that are Indian Reservations here in the US. Any time a minority is oppressed, they get their own homeland, right? Because it always works out great!

Sometimes, you need to just let history be history and not use a past wrong as justification for a new one. Accept that the wrong happened, vow not to let it happen again, and move on. Tell the truth, and allow for reconciliation. Perhaps even have some sort of process to work though those issues.

Oh wait, that's been tried too. And I seem to recall that they're doing pretty well. Or at least not blowing each other up. And they seemed to be pretty unified in annoying the crap out of half the globe on TV broadcasts a couple years ago.

Amos Quito: The demographic shift would be such that Jews would soon become the minority in "The Jewish State".

And? Israel needs to face the reality that they can either be a religious state or a proper democracy, but not both. Either they acknowledge that all of their residents are citizens and deserving of rights, or they go in the Iran column, and should be treated as such.

Amos Quito: It would be like a return to diaspora.

Hyperbole. They could still choose to live in gated communities, settlements, and enclaves that are kept strictly judenmuslimfrei. Also, they're no longer the go-to scapegoat when anything goes wrong in the vast majority of continental Europe. No pogroms. No Inquisition. They simply would no longer be able to decide what rights their disenfranchised fellow countrymen would and would not be tolerated to exercise. Again, act like an adult or sit at the kids' table with Iran.

themindiswatching: Hint: the Rapture isn't going to happen even if you kick all the Arabs out.

That's not really a Catholic thing - rapture via Israel.

vygramul: That's not really a Catholic thing - rapture via Israel.

Yes, but Santorum is #1 with the people who believe this.

Well, if that is the case Santorum, Israel really is a full on Apartheid state and is denying millions of Israelis equal human rights and representation based on who they were born. If that's the type of state to which you pledge your blind loyalty, it says a hell of a lot about your character and beliefs, and none of them are good.

Amos Quito: The only way that Israel will ever fall into line is if she is forced to by non-Israeli Jews, on whose political, financial, moral and editorial support they are utterly dependent. They are the only ones Israel would ever consider listening to.

This I completely agree with. Until the rest of the world starts treating Israel in the manner deserved for their behavior (and specifically the United States), there is no incentive for them to change. Barring every single Arab dropping dead tomorrow, the status quo suits them just fine.

cut him some slack, he's just trying to bring about the end of days.

i thought rick perry was the american taliban. turns out it's rick "christian sharia law for everyone" santorum.

Remember, Jesus freak nutjobs like him and Bush NEED the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and need it to really blow up. That way zombie Jesus can return.

FlashHarry: i thought rick perry was the american taliban. turns out it's rick "christian sharia law for everyone" santorum.

Rick Perry is Dubya redux. Santorum is frothy cheeks crazy.

It seems like the Republican party is trolling us. There is no way a collection of people this stupid can be randomly chosen from the population.

Derp like it's your last day on earth.

Santorum is a theocrat. He would like a system something like Iran but replace "Islamic" with "Christian". This is just part of his theocratic principles. I mean, his omnipotent God can't bring in the end times unless there is an Israel to destroy. Therefore, Israel needs to be protected blindly by True Christians at all costs so that his loving God can destroy it.

cptjeff

Turkey's not an Arab country. I know that's way besides your point, but... just sayin'.

Amos Quito: coco ebert: cptjeff

Turkey's not an Arab country. I know that's way besides your point, but... just sayin'.


But it is a Goyim country.


/Same thing, effectively

I knows, I knows.

themindiswatching: Hint: the Rapture isn't going to happen even if you kick all the Arabs out.

He's a Catholic. Catholics are not Pre-Millenialist Darbyites.

Amos Quito: The demographic shift would be such that Jews would soon become the minority in "The Jewish State". It would be like a return to diaspora.

That's what happens when Imperial powers carve out a state for one ethnicity rather than one population. You get generations and generations living in refugee camps. All they've known is economic dependency on Israel's governments and second/third class citizenship. There is going to be one state where everybody has to get along or there is going to be a continuing ethnic cleansing that will lead to even worse things. This is why people listen to that nutbag Ahmadinnerjacket---if Europe is responsible for the Holocaust then Europe should have sacrificed its own geography for such a unique state rather than pushing the issue onto a third party.

Santorum should know. He's awfully anal about details like this.

Doesn't Mr. Santorum understand how this works? There will never be peace in the Middle East. They don't want peace. If they did, they would already have it.

Amos Quito: Of course the Political Zionist quest for Palestine precedes the Holocaust by half a century. Hitler was in knee-pants when Herzl first hatched his scheme to create a Jewish State in Palestine. The Balfour Declaration pledged the real estate in 1917. The Holocaust and its aftermath were certainly a major factor in the creation of a Zionist State in Palestine, but in no way did the Holocaust serve as a justification, let alone a "cause" for the creation of Israel.

As a secular Jew, Herzl had originally wanted to locate Israel somewhere in Uganda (or somewhere thereabouts in Africa). Always thought that was interesting.